According to the *sysops* there will be "no altering or deleting of threads". Wanna bet?greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) Deleted Thread : One Thread |
I just looked for a thread on Stinkbomb, to compare with the one I have saved on my harddrive. It is gone.
[i didn't want to pollute Sysman's well wishes thread] RE Ashton and Leska's revisionist history
greenspun.com : LUSENET : TimeBomb 2000 (Y2000) : One Thread
Because I didn't want to dredge this up on the thread that is supposed to be for Sysman's well wishes I will start this new thread.Flint said of A&L
"I'm just so thankful, for the sake of Sysman and everyone else, that the hospitals' "toast" condition Ashton and Leska promised us so ardently didn't come to pass. Of course, A&L have remained utterly silent on this topic since rollover..."
A&L responded
"Flint, you just haven't read enough threads. What we said was that if the equipment stopped working, the hospitals would be Toast. Still true. We ennumerated the reasons extensively to you on several threads a long time ago. But your memory apparently is short-circuited :-) Our abundant THANKFULNESS at the LESS THAN A BITR for which we ardently PRAYED on many a thread FROM THE VERY BEGINNING is still running at 1008%, even enough to wish you a Happy New Year !!!!!!
Guess somebody (Flint again per usual) had to start sourness so Sysman wouldn't bust the rest of his ribs LOL or ROTF ;^)
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), January 09, 2000."
But (one of many) posts made last year was
"Yes, healthcare as we know it is TOAST come 2000. Another system will build up from scratch to replace it. But you don't want to need care during that long interim ... xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxxx -- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), May 28, 1999."
Notice that this post does not say "if" it says "is". "healthcare as we know it is toast come 2000".
Like so many of the pessimists they are now waffling and saying "we never said that" (using their best yourdon voice impersonation, no doubt)
Come clean folks....you were WRONG. Why not just admit it?
-- trying to re-word (isn't@really.ethical), January 10, 2000Answers
Trying:Why do you REQUIRE it? Haven't you got better things to do?
Does your world hinge on getting apologies before you can move on?
Why?
-- (formerly@nowhere.zzz), January 10, 2000.One of the real solid consistent threads in Y2k is that pollies talk about doomers being wrong all the time. It's not really a question of risks and benefits, it's right and wrong, and the worst epithet a polly can hurl is to say you're WRONG.It's funny, but the GIs seem to take being wrong as a minor fact of life. Taking risks occasionally means you make mistakes. And GIs never seem to talk about pollies being wrong, only that they perhaps have a narrow view or don't consider all the possibilities.
There is something in the background of the average polly, I would guess, that makes being wrong the worst possible thing they can imagine. Some kind of trauma or social embarrassment, perhaps. Somebody, somewhere, really must have rubbed their noses in it. Maybe that's where the strident calls for apology come from - by damn, now I can make someone ELSE feel like crud.
-- bw (home@puget.sound), January 10, 2000.Who is to say that health care will make it through the year, we are only 10 days in and I have not gotten a hospital bill yet.....More to come.
-- Its (all@conspriacy.com), January 10, 2000.
-- TB Liars (are@still.at.it), March 25, 2000
Ethical.You speak of ethics!!! I have more ethics in my little finger. than you obviously have in your entire frame of reference.
Hey sherlock. When BILLIONS of dollars is spent on something coupled with the credible sources that transferred the information to the non-techno sophisticates. Coupled with derogatory info. from CIA,U.S. commerce,U.S. Senate, group after group. report after report. espousing the importance of remediation and those countries that have spent nothing at all.
To roll thru the purported date with absolutely---and I mean absolutely minimal repercussion in any and or all locations, be it Italy or Russia or U.S. and one must come away with the most puzzling question.----Why?????
How- an individual read the signs as a warning for disaster can now be quoted as unethical etc. and seemingly have to hang their head in shame, is beyond me.!!
Excluding all of the opinions involved in this matter, one must come to the conclusion that this will be the single greatest mysteries of all time.!!!
-- d.......... (dciinc@aol.com), January 10, 2000."formerly@nowhere.zzz"Because A&L were among the most vocal in accusing forum optimists of being government plants, talking about the deaths of billions and supposedly having "sat in" on "high level .gov meetings" where they gain "tidbits of vital information" that they spread to this forum; AKA "rumors"
THEY were allowed to pass judgement on other forum participants, with immunity from the "sysops", but now that they are trying to change their tone [without saying they were wrong] and are being called on it...you want to just say "what's your problem?"
how many other double standards do you enjoy in your life?
-- revisionists (are@a.crackup), January 10, 2000.It's funny, but the GIs seem to take being wrong as a minor fact of life.Then why are they so unwilling to admit it?
-- (bobM@jxl.net), January 10, 2000.I dont't think Ashton and Leska owe anyone an apology. Quit bugging these wonderful folks. How would you like to be one body with two heads?? Cripes ... Well would ya?????
-- (Lurkin@gain.com), January 10, 2000.Excluding all of the opinions involved in this matter, one must come to the conclusion that this will be the single greatest mysteries of all time.!!!Not really. I don't think it's much of a mystery at all. Actually, it makes quite a bit of sense. Perhaps you just don't "Get It."
-- (bobM@jxl.net), January 10, 2000.Lurkin'You're killin' me man!!! I about wet myself........
A&L???? No doubt they were 2 of the most pessimistic on this board. Anyone who disagreed with them (me) was immediately labeled an industry shill.
Deano
-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 10, 2000.bw, that is the most bass-ackwards thing I've seen in a long time!The doomer were allowed to gloat, crow, and cajole any and every "polly" in sight, for YEARS.
Now that the tables have turned, and SOME people don't want to let the doom-sayers just walk away with revisionist history under their arms, you cry "foul". what a joke.
Where were you while all the badgering of optimists was going on? did you even ONCE defend an optimist with the same line of reasoning you are using now?
somehow I doubt it.
-- Alls Fair (in@love.war), January 10, 2000.Whoa!!! How do you watch CHEMTRAILS with two heads on one body?
-- (I'm@pol.ly), January 10, 2000."The doomer were allowed to gloat, crow, and cajole any and every "polly" in sight, for YEARS."I don't recall GIs gloating (with the possible exception of Milne and North, who seemed to enjoy it way too much). Most GI statements seemed to boil down to "we don't know, it looks bad, get ready". No crowing that I saw, but maybe it all meant something different to you. Cajole? Well, they were trying to cajole friends and strangers into prepping, but that's hardly abusive. What does "cajole" mean to you?
"... SOME people don't want to let the doom-sayers just walk away ...". That's the rubbing-their-noses-in-it that I was talking about. Do you demand that the weatherman apologize every evening for the errors in his/her forecast of the previous night? GIs repeatedly stressed what they did NOT know, and how the lies were making accurate predictions impossible. That's one of the main themes of Y2k. We STILL don't know, and won't have much idea of the damage until March or so.
The polly call for apologies is entwined with the erroneous polly assumption that Y2k is over with. ("See, all done, no problem, so now GROVEL, dammit!") The GI call for continued awareness is linked to the GI caution that you [should] have seen for a couple years, now. ("Not done yet, save your preps, still being lied to, give it a couple months.")
If you know the history from a couple years back, you know that the rollover was not our first concern, and that we GIs always predicted failures for months. If you just tuned in, you probably got a big dose of rollover fever, and think that's all GIs ever talk about. Then when it passes, perhaps it SOUNDS revisionist to you, to suddenly hear a GI saying "wait, it's not over yet". Sorry, it's what we've been saying for a long time. I started Y2k work in 1994, I think, and it was 1997 before I even HEARD about the lights possibly going out at rollover. I thought it was a hoax, first time someone said it.
Defend an optimist? I AM an optimist. I'm delighted, but wary. Which optimists were being badgered, and what do you mean by badgered? Is it "badgering" when the sysops delete spam? Is a hundred identical threads considered an optimistic contribution, in your eyes? Please give the URL of a thread where an optimist was badgered.
-- bw (home@puget.sound), January 10, 2000.Is the year over already and I missed it? Toast in 2000 -- there's 51 weeks to go yet -- scratch that: 52 weeks, since Y2K has 53 weeks. If the medical devices don't go down on thier own (and they mightn't) then the medicaid billing system will remain a threat.>"<
-- (squirrel@huntr.com), January 10, 2000."Please give the URL of a thread where an optimist was badgered."
http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001xqb
-- (badgered@outofexistence.com< /a>), January 10, 2000.The truth is that the optimists were treated like shit on this board, not by everyone, but by too many. Optimists were called shills, govt plants, morons, idiots, they were told that they would be dead soon, that their children would starve, and on and on and on. I'm sure that I've said things to optimists that I would be embassed by in retrospect. To deny this is dishonest. Because of this treatment I am not at all surprised that they wish to collect their pound of flesh. Frankly, the gloating from the polly camp is somewhat deserved.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.UncGlad someone remembers!! Folks like 'a', andy, mud-fer-brains, ray, itscoming@soon, hardliner, brett, the list just goes on and on.......
I, for one, would pay good money to have 5 minutes alone with each of them. A lesson in good manners shouldn't take any longer than that.
Deano
-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 10, 2000.Badgered - I looked at the thread you gave. Looks like LadyLogic posted about 25% of the total remarks, and she posted 4 or 5 from the bottom. It's not like she ran from the room in tears. A couple posters credited her with courage, and said she had a perfect right to post, etc.Beyond that, it looks like a fairly typical thread, where some people try to keep it on track while some focus on personality-based attacks. Pretty much like this one. Gotta admit, Y2k chat rooms are not something I'd want to broadcast to distant galaxies as the epitome of human communication.
Is that the badgering? Y2k sure has fostered some polarized discussions, but the sysops have been the target of much stronger verbal abuse than the cited thread contained.
-- bw (home@puget.sound), January 10, 2000.Unc said it all...
-- Y2KGardener (govegan@aloha.net), January 10, 2000.
-- TB Liars (are@still.at.it), April 05, 2000.
I cannot remember any recent event such a Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, Watergate, Whitewater, Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc., that the news media & government DID NOT do a major snow job on all of us. Look at all the true facts that came out months & years later. If you think Y2K is over and we have been told everything, which was how this was the great NON-EVENT, then I do want to talk to you about a bridge I have for sale. Burn me once.....
-- Trish (Adler2@webtv.net), January 10, 2000."The truth is that the optimists were treated like shit on this board, not by everyone, but by too many."That's not the truth. It's the big lie that has been promoted on this forum now for almost a year, ever since a number of people, some named, many unnamed (trolls) began to launch attacks on the board, Ed and others who posted regularly here to destroy the forum.
Some posted as "pollys", others (the same people, often) posted as "doomers". Sometimes they even replied to one another.
This is the Internet, remember?
Come to think of it, who posted this thread? Don't know, do we, not even from the perspective of a "regular handle". Probably Ken Decker. Or not. Who knows? See what I mean?
Most polite optimists (the Don Florence's, Dave Walden's and others, after some vetting) have been treated decently. Those, like Decker and Flint, who saw it as their purpose to deprogram the animals (us) were treated accordingly on many occasions (and, ACTUALLY, reserved amazingly gracious treatment considering their oft-stated goals, which were only slightly less explicit than the above).
As for Ashton & Leska, I don't doubt that they frequently did believe the health system would be toast. So what? This proves .... ?
In real life and in the world where hundreds of posts have been in reponse to SPECIFIC threads and questions WITHIN those threads, I can pick out amazing stuff from everyone on this thread. To what purpose?
Of course, there is an implicit "if" in many statements that people on this board have made, or, to put it differently, ordinary people don't try to speak with the precision of scientists or the deceitfulness of a Bill Clinton who has plausible deniability for everything.
Were A&L extremely pessimistic about Y2K impacts. Yes. That's definite. No mistake. They expected a disaster. Pillory them for that if you get off on it.
Where they delighted, so far, that we have escaped such? They have said so more than once since rollover. As people who help the dying, their imagination for a TEOTWAWKI scenario and its effects on real people can perhaps be reasonably understood, by those with a desire to understand.
This thread is one more in the recent line of vicious attacks on regulars -- or, as I started out in this post, one more in the line of the big lie about how this forum has evolved in the past year.
Drop it and get a life.
-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 10, 2000."the sysops have been the target of much stronger verbal abuse than the cited thread contained" is not intended to mean that there aren't abusive threads out there, just that the cited one wasn't the worst I'd seen. It also doesn't mean that the sysops need me to leap to their defense. They seem to be doing ok without my protection (or guidance, come to that).
-- bw (home@puget.sound), January 10, 2000.Deano,If your intent is to teach someone a physical lesson in manners, you may be well advised to remove Hardliner from your list of folks who you wish to "spend five minutes alone with". Not to mention that I must have missed his "nasty name calling" posts.
While I'm at it, "a" has most graciously said his regrets to those who have felt slighted by him, so I would think that a lesson in manners is not needed there.
Andy forgets his pills now and then, but the rest of your list I agree with, most especially that brett (miklos?) guy, I have yet to read one single positive word from him.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.Unc, which came first on this board? The "chickens" or the "eggs"?2 years ago, it was obviously the "chickens" who were happy to discuss among each other civily. Then came the "eggs", such as the sort who dwell at the Debunky forum. Who started the name calling? I can't say for sure, but obviously both camps are guilty of this behavior.
One fact remains uncontestable: this forum was started by Ed Yourdon, who was not a polly. Therefore the pollies were intruding with their name calling and provoking attitude.
The same type of people, in both camps, are still at it egging each other. Reality doesn't matter for them, getting attention and a reaction does.
-- (just@n.observation), January 10, 2000.trying to re-word (isn't@really.ethical), revisionists (are@a.crackup), (Lurkin@gain.com) from 216.234.161.83, Alls Fair (in@love.war) are coming in from the same anonymizer.
-- Sysop (on@duty.now), January 10, 2000.First, I would like to see the preceding posts of the thread wherein Ashton and Leska made their remarks, so that I can read the context. Second, the LadlyLogic post referred to as an example of pollies being attacked contained this passage that raised the ire of many:"In conclusion, the only thing Im going to worry about are the people in Y2K forums planning on bombing bridges, poisoning water, raping women, shooting people because of their skin color, religion, sexual preferences...."
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), January 10, 2000.Big Dog,Thank you for pointing out my "absolute" statement, as absolutes are rarely true.
Still, we must have been reading two different versions of the board to see such different things, I know what I saw, and what (early on) I often times participated in. MANY civil optimists were driven from this board by constant insults as I have refered to above, folks like Paul Neuhart (sp?) and Buddy DC come to mind, and Paul Davis was for a long time a very civil fellow, until I assume he had just finally reached his fill of abuse. I was here, I saw it, to deny it is to attempt the "Big Lie".
Finally, out of curiousity, and because I am not always the brightest bulb on the block, was Drop it and get a life. directed to me in particular?
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.just @n observation,I've taken my shots already at the virulent pollys, and have in the past said many nasty things to the worst of them. By acknowledging the boorish behavior from the doomer side I am merely trying for the balance of truth. Both side do indeed have their fair (unfair?) share of uncouth posters.
While I have not always made friends with my thoughts, I have always made the attempt to state them honestly.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.Here is just one example of how pollies attack doomers (Lisa, Long in the Tooth and Chuck in this case), expletives were fully delineated in the original but have been edited with ** for this forum. Note there are no protests from site-owner Doc Paulie against the invective.GO F**K YOURSELF -- I FOR ONE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR STUPID F**KING CULT OR YOUR C**T CENSORS (THIS INCLUDES DICKLESS CHUCKIE BOY WHO STARTED THE CENSORSHIP AFTER WIFEY LAID DOWN THE LAW). YOU PEOPLE ARE A LAUGHING STOCK. YOU F**KING LOSER. GO F**K YOURSELF WITH YOUR MEMES. S**THEAD. ESAD....DITTO FOREVER!! - Mr Polly 10:47:07 1/01/100 (15)
What a pity - LongInTheTooth 11:56:41 1/01/100 (14)
Actually, I happen to agree with you. - Patricia 12:26:06 1/01/100 (1) You did not offend me Patricia - LongInTheTooth 16:03:04 1/01/100 (0)
Anybody here want to set this TB2000 s**thead straight? I don't care to converse with their DWGI brain stems for a while, maybe forever.....a bright future beccons....and a rewarding, enjoyable life beccons...plus I want to go have some fun after doing my part to turn Y2K into the non-event of the century! Don't hold back! This TB2000er is rather transparent, don't you think? Thanks! - Mr Polly 12:09:44 1/01/100 (11)
There's the classification again. - LongInTheTooth 16:19:45 1/01/100 (6) Hey s**thead....longinthetooth...yeah...that sh**thead....GO F**K YOURSELF, ESAD. ANY QUESTIONS? - Mr Polly 17:29:10 1/01/100 (5) Yes, I have a question, why were you ever born? - LongInTheTooth 18:00:31 1/01/100 (4)
Good riddence, s**thead. n/t - Mr Polly 18:54:29 1/01/100 (3)
People like you always have to have the last word/insult. Pathetic - LongInTheTooth 06:10:24 01/02/00 (0) People like you always have to have the last word/insult. Pathetic - LongInTheTooth 06:10:13 01/02/00 (1)
The TRUTH has given POLLIES the last word, not doomers. The fact that you posted the statement you did says you are guilty of what you acuse me of -- GO F**K YOURSELF, ESAD S**THEAD. (btw...I do enjoy the last word...BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!) n/t - Mr Polly 08:12:07 01/02/00 (0)
No problemo Mr.Polly - Doc Paulie 12:30:15 1/01/100 (0) Mr Polly is the....a...problem...... - Chuck 12:22:40 1/01/100 (2) Hey Newbie. Why are you here again? - Bad Company 18:29:38 1/01/100 (1) Thanks Bad Company...but I don't believe he's a newbie. I might be wrong but I doubt it. BTW, isn't victory sweet?! I for one will enjoy watching them wince and whine for a while. And...no kid gloves for awhile, either! They deserve everything they get. No helmich manuvers to help save doomers choking on crow !! n/t - Mr Polly 18:59:46 1/01/100 (0) GO F**K YOURSELF -- I FOR ONE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR STUPID F**KING CULT OR YOUR C**T CENSORS (THIS INCLUDES DICKLESS CHUCKIE BOY WHO STARTED THE CENSORSHIP AFTER WIFEY LAID DOWN THE LAW). YOU PEOPLE ARE A LAUGHING STOCK. YOU F**KING LOSER. GO F**K YOURSELF WITH YOUR MEMES. S**THEAD. ESAD....DITTO FOREVER!! N/T - Mr Polly 10:43:31 1/01/100 (2)
Mr Polly suggested in a thread above this one, that this forum needs to exist as a monument -- a library -- an archive -- that shows the Y2K mania for what it was. After reading his obscene rantings, I think we would all agree with him. His vile postings do need to be preserved for all to see, as a warning to others about what can happen when someone becomes so obsessed with attacking other peoples beliefs that they lose their own grip on reality. (NT) - Ron Black 03:25:56 01/03/00 (0)
This TNS Forum is getting DElusional.... - Concerned 11:01:31 1/01/100 (0)
Hey, there is a link to Lisa's forum at the top of this page - I never realised that before! [off to post...] (n/t) - Andy Ray 10:34:52 1/01/100 (1)
for any wondering, Andy is a Limey so by default he is civil and well mannered, you are aren't you Andy? n/t - Andywatcher 11:11:28 1/01/100 (0)
And that dear lady is the inherent difference between you and us. - Patricia 10:31:09 1/01/100 (1)
Inmates in an insane asylum sure fits as a description. Emotionally disturbed people. I hope the gubmint gets invited to their little meme cult! Bet it ends up being needed with some of them! n/t - Mr Polly 11:01:19 1/01/100 (0)
Go get botulism you idiot Doomer. - Doomer::~Doomer() 10:27:08 1/01/100 (0)
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), January 10, 2000.Batters and fielders have all made errors, couple of wild pitches already, nobody on base, no score yet, even the umpires are bickering on calls. And the first inning isn't even over yet.In my book gloating for whatever reason is not an indicator of sound character. Premature gloating suggests cognitive impairment.
-- Tom Carey (tomcarey@mindspring.com), January 10, 2000.Uncle D: No, you HAVE a great life from what I understand ;-)I'm not saying that there aren't optimists who had nasty things said to them by REGULARS who should have known better, but that the characterization of the dialogue as though "one side" was bad and the "other" good is completely unhelpful at this stage.
He said. She said. They said. No, they didn't. Yes, they did. I do agree with your next post. EVERYONE has been boorish at times, certainly I have been. OTOH, the Internet is a super-heated medium and those who are experienced let 90% of it run off their back. Heck, that's part of the fun of it, IMO. Of course, I wouldn't use "Internet speak" on everyone in my own home -- but that doesn't mean people are terrible on the Net, just "different". I wouldn't ask people to call me "Big Dog" at home nor, I suspect, would I call you "Uncle Deedah"!
I admit (it's obvious from the above) I have a very definite and passionate conviction about the history of the forum "in the large" over the past year. It has BARELY survived the attacks on it (oops, there I go again, I'll stop .... )
-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 10, 2000.SYSOP: I am a regular poster here who happens to use the anonymizer. ANYONE can type in "anon.free.anonymizer.com/" in front of any URL and get access. So your "outing" doesn't really mean anything. For example, I have not posted on this thread until now, but if you look you will see that my IP matches the ones above.bw: you must be fairly new to the forum if you don't think the optimists were "abused" here for the last two years. Just go look in the archives...click at random on any thread you want to, I bet that on 8 out of ten threads, you will find a "polly" being called names. it really is that simple.
No, I'm not going to post links to these...if you are narrow-minded as to think attacks on optimists have not been the norm here....you are FAR too naive.
Old Git:
A&L also said "the current system will go down. Health care As We CURRENTLY Know It will go down. This has been covered on many threads; look in archives. " also "hospitals notoriously smugged "beyond" the Y2K problem, and so are not and will not be ready."
Unk said it right with what he said. You just have to remember back a few months. And if the information at the deleted threads forum is correct, most of what is being deleted here are re-post of past forum treatment of optimists. Face it the sysops don't want people to see the statements made by extremists, and I don't blame them. Most people are embarassed by such behavior, but some are not.
-- ANON (posting@this.anonymizer), January 10, 2000.Thanks, Unk. I agree.OG: Paulie doesn't delete ANYTHING, nor is he inclined to comment on anything anyone posts. You, apparently see this as a flaw, but where else can folks go that have been banned from other Y2k sites?
-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), January 10, 2000.Actually Big Dog I am called "Uncle Deedah" around here, or sometimes just "Deedah", and sometimes I'm called "Honey". Should you ever find yourself a guest in my home, you would certainly be welcome to call me either of the first two.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.Sysop on duty,What's the point of outing ISP's? I know many folks who use anonymizers. Myself included.
A few of us were driven into hiding a two years ago by some nutcase who claimed he ate animals off manure piles. This person spammed our mail boxes with the most vile email that ever went into cyberspace.
There is nothing I have read on here since that is as bad. It was truly sick sick sick!!! I'll never post my real email again after that trip.
-- (I'm@pol.ly), January 10, 2000.I don't think bw recognizes an insult when it sees one.
-- (poly@doomerpolydoomer.com) , January 10, 2000.Anita, an accusation was made that doomers have heaped abuse on pollies. My post illustrates that pollies heap abuse on doomers in far worse terms. I don't care about Paulie's philosophy on deletion and never referred to it; what he does or does not permit on his site is his business. The character spewing the worst of the abuse, Mr. Polly, has not been banned from this board. Ironically, cpr, another leading polly, has boasted about getting doomers banned from European sites. We won't talk about the attempt to shut down TB2K by complaining to MIT nor, when that failed, the sabotage by spider robots which DID shut down TB2--temporarily, I'm glad to say.
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), January 10, 2000.OG>We won't talk about the attempt to shut down TB2K by complaining to MIT nor, when that failed, the sabotage by spider robots which DID shut down TB2--temporarily, I'm glad to say.<
Before you go making accusations like that ya'd better talk to Greenspun or Yordon. DOOMER FORUM MEMBERS DID THAT.
-- (polli@wollie.net), January 10, 2000.
-- TB Liars (are@still.at.it), April 05, 2000.
Bigdog,I recognize we have different points of view. I will say, I am an optimist while still seeing the "doomer" potential. I've always appreciated your "well reasoned" posts, you have an way with words I find refreshing!
Now, for my two cents; as I read the amazing responses above, I can't help but notice the date after each. If this were a sporting event we were playing or watching, rather than our future, we would still be in the beginning of the game, so to speak.
To me, "Y2K" means the YEAR 2000, We've been thru less than 3% of the year. If we were involved in a basketball, football, soccer or a hockey game we would still be in the first two minutes, in baseball, we would even have the first out of the game yet.
Way too early; way, way too early to reasonably estimate how the event will turn out. I'm going to remain thrilled with the way this has begun, but I think I'll keep my eyes open and see how it all plays out.
-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com) , January 10, 2000.I Meant "a way with words" and BigDog, sorry, I should proofread better.
-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com) , January 10, 2000.Polli Wolli, you DO have evidence for such an extraordinary accusation, don't you?
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), January 10, 2000.Michael -- I agree and hope, as always, the optimists win. But it is early, that's all I have been saying as of 01/10/2000 and all, I gather, Ed has been saying. True, many statements were/have been made about rollover expectations but there is no single "doomer" line anymore than a "polly line -- and many statements were ALSO made BEFORE rollover about months of data being required to arrive at a sound judgment.It's time for these TB2K "show trials" to end. They're ridiculous and demeaning to attackers and defenders. In "real life", Ashton & Leska give rather tirelessly of themselves to help people who are DYING. That doesn't make them Mother Teresa and they've never claimed such. But the implication at the top of this thread that they are, somehow, maliciously LYING about past participation in this forum is simply, utterly and nastily ridiculous.
Let's watch the game. If I end up winning and we have a Y2K depression, I will consider it a great loss. If you win, Michael, we'll both win. And that's how A&L have ALWAYS felt too.
-- BigDog (BigDog@duffer.com), January 10, 2000.BigDog,I'm on your side all the way, if it's only a slight depression, we all win! I'm very much cognizant that it could be worse. I'm all for everything remaining at a level we can "live" with.
Inconvenience, is just that, an inconvenience, won't kill anybody I love, just make them a little more aggravated on occasion. I can live with that.
Let's hope those that fix it, continue to do it well.
-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com) , January 10, 2000.What I pointed out, and some have noticed, was *selective presentation of evidence*. Yeah, there have been some horrible jerks showing up here, attacking mindlessly, attempting denial of service. I condemn them as enthusiastically as anyone else does.One important question you should ask yourself when you miss the ballpark by several time zones is, how did I get fooled so badly? And one part of the answer is surely that you looked at only one side of the whole story. Big Dog has even argued, on another thread, that the *purpose* of this forum was to focus exclusively on the information congenial to the pessimistic viewpoint! He dismissed as trolls those who were unethical enough to try to introduce some balance into the overall perspective.
A&L were full of tales of the breakdown of hospitals before rollover, complete with caustic dismissal of anyone who doubted them. AFTER rollover, when hospitals continued to operate smoothly, they were silent. The pattern is quite clear -- good news, even (as now) when we are surrounded by it, is NOT to be mentioned. Instead, we see thread after thread digging up every little glitch, however minor, temporary, inconsequential or even unrelated to y2k!
How ironic that those on this forum who are so acutely aware of media spin, are unable to see their own. Even when it's so blatant it reeks.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), January 10, 2000.Gee OG, didn't you read Phil's letter to this forum? it was Diane and Lisa@work.now's call to use a robot downloader to "grab a copy of the archives" that brought down the tired old machine that Phil was letting you use FOR FREE.Then he was called all sorts of interesting names for "closing the forum". HAH. I liked this part of his letter the best tho'...
The user community of the Y2K forum contains a remarkably high percentage of aggressive and mentally disturbed individuals.
That just says it all, now doesn't it?
-- DS (DS@DS.DS), January 10, 2000.Not addressed to me, but fairness compells me to add my two cents.Yes, I personally know of at least one from the doomer side who was attempting to download and archive the forum on the night that it crashed. And NO I will not ever name names, so DON'T bother asking. (PS, I was not me) Does that excuse the attacks on the forum from the polly side? Hell no, but I want to try to keep the debate honest.
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 10, 2000.A&L "Granted, theoretically you could continue to receive health care in January 2000. But the supplies will most likely slow to a trickle, rationing will be in effect, and personnel will be grumpy about not getting paid. Insurance companies will shut down hospitals, clinics, facilities. Workarounds will start to clog.Of course we could be wrong, but all our senses would have to be hallucinating for that to be the case. OR everything now bloopered would have to be fixed by 1/1/2000."
yeah mods, I started this thread and posted under "alls fair" but nothing else. with the other posters weighing in here with statements about the anonymizer, I won't waste anymore time on that.
It seems that Old Git has gotten back to her old self in that she has started posting disinformation and lies once again.
You should note that "mr. polly" showed up on the scene REAL late in the game, and I suspect was a "doomer" who was trying to "get in good" with the polly camp so that they could post vile and abusive crap and then point the finger to it on THIS forum. I would not even be surprized to find out it is OG herself. She used to do that (along with Diane) as "Outingsr". Old habits must die harder for some than others.
What is so wrong with wanting to hold others accountable for their words? You pessimists did it....all along you kept asking for "pressure to be put on the PTB" to stop the "spin" and the "cover-up", but now it is NOT ok for optimists to post THE TRUTH about what was going on here for many, many months?
Geez, Russ Lipton must have started at least 15 threads dealing with the "threat" to this forum...that doesn't strike you as odd? His smearing of Flint, Decker, Hoffmeister, Poole, and other "pollys" went unchallenged by the regulars here...in fact, many cheered him on.
NOW you all want to pretend like it never happened. Bull.
Take a clue from guys like KOS and even a@a.a...they at least have the integrity to admit they were wrong and apoligize.
-- DS (DS@DS.DS), January 10, 2000.Uncle, if you mean by "attacks" the brain-dead spamming of the same message over and over, I agree.But the pessimists are trying to lump that behavior (of a minor, childish few) with ALL optimists, most of whom just want to refute the rumors that the doomers were presenting as fact.
Phil G's letter made it very clear that robot downloads were the demise of the first server. Diane and Lisa both admitted they (along with others) were trying to archive the forum "in case". what more proof do you need than that?
-- I'm done now (moving@on.til.tomorrow), January 10, 2000."It seems that Old Git has gotten back to her old self in that she has started posting disinformation and lies once again."If I have posted inaccurate information it has been by accident. I have neither deliberately disinformed nor lied. Kindly do not judge me by your own low standards.
As for the robots, I understand it was thought at first to be a problem caused by persons who were trying to archive the forum that night; however, after further examination I further understand there was doubt about it being accidental.
I find it an odd coincidence that those using anonymizers in this thread are pollies. I am beginning to suspect strongly that some of the delete-on-sight trolls, who have been conspicuously absent in their bombing attempts of late, are now hiding under anonymizers so as to render detection by sysops difficult, if not impossible. Some of the rhetoric cetainly sounds very familiar, does it not?
-- Old Git (anon@spamproblems.com), January 10, 2000.I concur, Old Git. Seems somewhat familiar to me too.
-- Michael (michaelteever@buffalo.com) , January 10, 2000.I've never posted using an anonymizer, and have ALWAYS used my real name...even my LAST name before the spam became unbearable.I really don't know why Y2k has taken on such an emotional response on the internet. It's right up there now with politics and religion regarding subjects that can't be discussed without boring into the very bone of man, and many can't seem to separate Y2k from the other two.
-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), January 10, 2000."Polli Wolli, you DO have evidence for such an extraordinary accusation, don't you?"Of course I have evidence Old Git.
DS,
I have said on several threads that I am a recovering doomer, and I really don't care one way or the other if I get on anyone's good side. And I am not Old Git or Diane.
-- (I'm@pol.ly), January 10, 2000.I did initiate a thread as to how to download the archives in the event of frame relay crash - which most certainly has not happened - BUT there was testing done on the downloading process (from a regular who'd successfully DL it, with CPU stats) that shows that the method I used (and other regulars) did not crash the server.here's the thread this troll references, BTW Here is the solution to archiving the DB: here.
I am searching for the thread that exhonerted the regulars, and incriminates 'somebody else' (post following soone=) but in the meantime----
Please, pollies, quit soiling your position more than you already have.
Here, here's what Phil has to say:
-- lisa (lisa@work.now), January 10, 2000.lisa, your patina is wearing off
-- (tiredof@doubleagents.com), January 10, 2000.No, my work at troll research is over.
Thank God.
Ask your boss, hon. :)
Wooooo Hooooo!!!!!!!! back to innocent livin'
-- lisa (lisa@work.now), January 10, 2000.Go to sleep, now, little one............
-- lisa (lisa@warm.sleepy_now), January 10, 2000.Nitey, nite.......
-- lisa (lisa@work.now), January 10, 2000.I'm curious about the thread that states that someone else did the deed, Lisa. Unfortunately, I'm ALSO dead tired right now, but I assume it will be here on this thread by morning?
-- Anita (notgiving@anymore.com), January 10, 2000.'Nita, gonna have to find it.I'm 'bout to die, too, tonight.
-- lisa (lisa@work.now), January 10, 2000.Absent the spidey-bots, i CAN say that dearest Andy Ray was the one who suggested the approach to MIT's President to get Phil to pull us off. He also is responsible for the contacts with legislators, and trustees at MIT.And the quote about disturbed people was taken out of context. Phil was referring to the people who had been contacting Administrators at MIT, and Ars-Digita trying to get them to remove the forum. If you want the context I'll be HAPPY to post it.
chuck
-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 11, 2000.Oh and before anyone wants to label the comment about Andy as an unsubstantiatable attack, his words were effectively that his suggestions had been taken and had gotten a bit out of hand. Or so he said to me.chuck
-- Chuck, a night driver (rienzoo@en.com), January 11, 2000.Uh... Uncle,Betcha all the things said about me, by the DBers and trolls, would top your list and spill over, in a sewer of their own creation.
Just an observation.
And BTW, in my conversations with Philip Greenspun, the downloading spiders, where not the only thing going on. And, please... dont forget the consistent spamming and DOS attacks, by the same DB crew who is attacking A&L on this thread. The Sysops sure dont forget. What a waste of energy!
You anon trollers are rather transparent, BTW.
Diane
-- Diane J. Squire (sacredspaces@yahoo.com), January 11, 2000.I am not a troll. I am not a polly. I do not want to disrupt. I have not posted on this thread, but I want to state a long-held opinion.There are harsh recriminations for speaking the slightest criticism about any of the select members in the social club here. For that reason, TB2000 has ceased to be a self-regulating body with balance. With the exception of Uncle D and a few notable others, you rarely self-regulate your cohorts.
"Were A&L extremely pessimistic about Y2K impacts. Yes. That's definite. No mistake. They expected a disaster. Pillory them for that if you get off on it."
Hardly Big Dog. Not for being pessimistic.
Some people see it this way: Ashton and Leska lorded their "more doomer than thou" attitude over some moderates. They frightened people with their hysterical imaginings. They were the no-name name-droppers privvy to exclusive secret knowledge. They exploited their doomer purism for position and status in the club. Accordingly, they have been treated as sacred darlings here. Most indefensible, they were sometimes smuggly demeaning to people who didn't agree with their weird catastrophic prediction about which they were soooo certain. And guess what? You all let it go unquestioned.
Is it really surprising to you that some participants remember and take them to task now?
Are you interested in what the quiet regiment of your presumed rank and file really think? Any interest in how the cause-effect dynamic works?
-- (if@so.listen), January 11, 2000.Pollys have two forums of their own. They shouldn't be surprised at the reaction they got on this forum last year when they tried to push their opinions on a forum that was never intended for pollys in the first place.This forum is intended for people who are concerned about the impact of the Y2000 problem on their personal lives, and who want to discuss various fallback contingency plans with other like-minded people.
-- About (Abo@u.t), January 11, 2000.TBY2K was always meant to be a place for those worried about possible Y2K effects to come share ways to prep and mitigate those effects.Those mocking Y2K worries really should never have come and set up attack shop. Rude.
-- About (concerns@bout.here), January 11, 2000.I am not a troll. I am not a polly.You are both.
I do not want to disrupt.
That is all you trolls want.
Are you interested in what the quiet regiment of your presumed rank and file really think?
No. Go away.
-- (sickof@these.trolls), January 11, 2000.The Thought Police are working hard to define a "troll" as anyone who dares point out that their fantasies are without factual basis. And now we have a new category of "troll" -- anyone who digs up what the Thought Police insisted on before events proved them foolish.I'm beginning to be more sympathetic with those who bemoan the sad state of education. Thinking and learning are not only not done, they are actively fought by the forum retards. Who pride themselves on their ignorance, and defend it against all reality. It would be amusing if it weren't so sad.
-- Flint (flintc@mindspring.com), January 11, 2000.You should have left this forum a long time ago, Flint, if you truly believed that Y2K worries had no factual basis.
-- Why does he keep (calling@TB.2000), January 11, 2000.-- trying to re-word:aren't you one of those people who likes to sit in the tub and pull the wings off of flies?
-- Charli (claypool@belatlantic.net), January 11, 2000.UncTrue. 'a' did come out. Kudos to him.
Now, about hardliner. If I remember correctly I was referred to as a 'troglodyte'(sp?) and also compared to a 'dog turd on the sidewalk'.
And my personal favorite was when he said he would 'make me dance the funky chicken before he snapped my neck'. Had to admit that was fairly clever!
Those are just a few that come to mind right now. I'm sure there are plenty more.
Deano
-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 11, 2000.Background information on health care and Y2khttp://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=001S1K
-- Y2k health care (concerns@were.real), January 11, 2000.CONCERNS7 The Committee remains concerned about the general lack of endtoend testing of biomedical devices within hospital settings. We recognize that hospitals have identified biomedical devices and their Y2K compliance status but only integrated testing ensures that each device will function properly with connective devices. This is a potential patient safety risk.
7 With respect to healthcare billing systems, there has been little Y2K participation by Part B (outpatient) providers, and there has been inadequate Y2K testing between these providers and the Medicare contractors.
7 In its August 13, 1999 Report on Year 2000 Efforts, HHS included a section on business continuity and contingency plans. HHS estimates a nationwide expenditure of $98,860,229 for Day One (January 1, 2000) and contingency planning activities. HCFA alone will spend $83 million principally on its Medicare claims processing contractors. Patient care functions require equal concern for Y2K readiness. But there does not appear to be any national governmental or institutional focus dealing with Y2K patient safety contingency planning. The Joint Commission on the Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations requires a Disaster Plan for hospitals. These plans receive only triennial review for each institution and were never intended to be a surrogate for Y2K contingency planning.
7 In planning your medical requirements at year's end, you should consider avoiding hospital utilization except in cases of acute need. Emergencies will always have top priority in a hospital's fulfilling its responsibilities to patients. However, elective surgery and other noncritical health events should be avoided in the waning week of the year until the Y2K crisis has passed and your medical community is functioning without Y2K as an overhanging issue.
Link
-- Y2k health care (concerns@were.real), January 11, 2000.If you say so Deano, as I said, I must have missed them. I like Hardliner. BTW, didn't I call you a "prepubescent teeny-bopper" once?
-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), January 11, 2000.UncOl' hardliner is probably a good guy when it comes down to it. Just rubbed each other the wrong way here.
A 'prepubescent teenie-bopper'??? ME???? If so, at my age I probably took it as a compliment. :-)
Deano
-- Deano (deano@luvthebeach.com), January 11, 2000......I also believe there are those who have suffered *psychic* damage due to the over-hype of Y2K,and that's why this forum is really, truly, a sad commentary of mankind.---/--@
-- (Ladylogic46@aol.com),
Damn! I was wondering what happened to my psychic powers! But as one of the UNEDUCATED she refers to, I don't feel psycologically capable of searching for them right now
-- Charli (claypool@belatlantic.net), January 11, 2000.personaly, I think the forum is in love with trolls and "trolling".It is the only thing keeping this place pumped up, with a common goal unite against the evil pollytrolls.For those who are trying to point out how wrong some people were, give up. It will never happen. they will deny and delay until everyone gets bored, then just wander off and declare "victory".
-- what (is@the.point?), January 11, 2000.
-- TB Liars (are@still.at.it), April 05, 2000.
the original thread was at http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002HhgI suspect there are many more that have "vanished mysteriously"
-- TB Liars (are@still.at.it), April 05, 2000.
Of course, the liars are still at it.I managed to sneak my way into the MSN chatroom one night too long ago, and I found some of them in there talking about how stupid to participate at a forum where you don't have access to the delete key.
Eight people, (former or current) have access to the password to that site, and I'm sure there or one or mose who are less than ethical. (As evidenced by the censorship) and would LOVE for some of their posts to disappear.
I pray to God no one ever uses those archives as a source for the "truth".
~*~
-- (Ladylogic46@aol.com), April 13, 2000.
Opps,
"one night too long ago"
That should have been one night NOT to long ago.
(But, you already knew that, right?)
~*~
-- (Ladylogic@...), April 13, 2000.
The nazis are still at it! Check out the thread astro-illogical nasdaq(MY title) Meme heads are allowed to post to the "closed" forum, but optimists are deleted!
-- Liars (still@going.strong!), April 18, 2000.
""Healthcare is the nation's single largest industry ..."completely automated ...
Yep, exactly what we've been telling y'all ...
From the trenches, this is the truth:
The CULL SCYTHE will swing.
-- Ashton & Leska in Cascadia (allaha@earthlink.net), September 22, 1999. "
-- More Proof (the@death.lovers.expected.TEOTW), May 03, 2000.