Catholics with Charisma?

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I've been reading a lot about the Charismatic movement in the Church. In my own diocese, the Bisphop does not acknowledge the Charismatics as "part of the whole". Their not listed in the Diocesan Directory, etc. I thought about attending, but I don't want to associate myself with a church that's not accepted with open arms on a local and papal level.

Does anyone have any personal experience with this movement? Not really interested in pouring over a website on the topic.

Yours in Christ,

-- Christina Triana (RomeChurch@aol.com), April 04, 2000

Answers

[Posted by J. F. Gecik, April 4, 2000 p.m.]

Hello, Christina.
Here is a paragraph from an article called "A Closer Look at Charismatic Renewal" by Gary Hershman
"... [T]he inception of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement [CCRM] ... occurred in the Spring of 1966, when Drs. William Storey and Ralph Keller, lay faculty members at Duquesne University, ... influenced by Keller's reading of [Pentecostal Protestant] John Sherril's, 'They Speak in Other Tongues,' sought out a means whereby they might be filled with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, after the manner of the apostles. This led to participation in several neo-Pentecostal prayer meetings, held in a Pittsburgh suburb, in the hope that they might learn how to receive the 'baptism of the Holy Spirit.' After attendance at several meetings, two of the four attending Catholics requested that hands be laid on them and they then began to undergo the Pentecostal experience of "speaking in tongues." The experience was shared with a group of Catholic students on retreat, in February, 1967, from which the first neo-Pentecostal prayer group was formed on a Catholic campus. From there the movement spread to Notre Dame University and beyond.

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In the ensuing 33 years, there have been ups and downs for the CCRM. Some bishops have been very accepting, others not. Some local CCRM communities have been cooperative with their bishops, while others have not, resulting in reprimands or worse. Thus, we are not really in a position to evaluate your bishop's decisions, Christina. It could be that he is poorly informed on this subject, or it could be that he knows a lot that is going on behind the scenes to which we are not privy -- and is therefore wisely protecting his flock.

As an outside observer, I have noticed that most CCRM communities seem to be "orthodox" doctrinally, very devoted to prayer, and loyal to the Holy Father. I have also noticed that the last two of the last three popes (Paul VI and John Paul II) have spoken favorably about and to the CCRM -- though usually with cautionary language, because of the danger of doctrinal inaccuracies, disobedience to bishops, pride [a "we are better than others" attitude], etc., that have been known to flare up. Here is a short address that the pope gave in 1996 "to Catholic Charismatics" at the Vatican:

Dear Friends in Christ,
1. With affection in the Lord I greet the participants in the Seventh International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Covenant Communities and Fellowships. I thank you for your good wishes and prayers at this time when I am celebrating the 50th Anniversary of my priestly ordination. I see this as an expression of the communion which links you with the Successor of Peter and the universal Church, a communion which you feel deeply and which itself is a sublime gift of the Holy Spirit to Christ's followers.

You represent communities of the Charismatic Movement from around the world, which, in their variety, bear witness to the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit is bestowing on the Church even in our own day. How can we fail to praise God for the abundant fruit which in recent decades the Renewal in the Spirit has brought about in the lives of individuals and in communities? Countless people have come to appreciate the importance of Sacred Scripture for Christian living they have acquired a new sense of the value of prayer and a profound yearning for holiness, many have returned to the sacraments, and a great number of men and women have achieved a deeper understanding of their baptismal call, and have committed themselves to the Church's mission with admirable dedication. In thanking God for all of this, I repeat the words which I wrote in the Encyclical Letter, 'Mission of the Redeemer': "As the third millennium of the Redemption draws near, God is preparing a great springtime for Christianity, and we can already see its first signs." 2. On 27 November 1995, the Catholic Fraternity received final recognition from the Pontifical Council for the Laity. By this official act the Church expressed appreciation of the Fraternity's goals and methods, and at the same time wished to strengthen your ecclesial identity. That identity requires you to be ever more fully associated with the life of the particular Churches. When ecclesial movements "humbly seek to become part of the life of local Churches and are welcomed by Bishops and priests within diocesan and parish structures, they represent a true gift of God both for new evangelization and for missionary activity properly so-called." In order to help Pastors and the Charismatic Movement to work together in building up the Church of Christ, the Pontifical Council for the Laity is preparing a document which will serve as an important point of reference for the life and apostolate of such communities, and for the discernment of their spiritual gifts. Let us pray that this document will produce the good results which we expect from it!

3. Your Seventh International Meeting is reflecting on the theme of spiritual preparation for the Year 2000. "A Jubilee is always an occasion of special grace, 'a day blessed by the Lord'.... The Jubilee of the Year 2000 is meant to be a great prayer of praise and thanksgiving, especially for the gift of the Incarnation of the Son of God and of the Redemption which he accomplished.". The Great Jubilee is not only a gift but also a demanding task. It calls for a great effort to respond to the pressing spiritual needs of our time.

Because the whole Church must prepare for the Great Jubilee "in the Holy Spirit," I have suggested that the year 1998 be dedicated specifically to the Holy Spirit and his sanctifying presence in the ecclesial community. It is my fervent hope that during that year all movements enlivened by the Spirit, who is the never-ending source of holiness and communion, will come together to bear joint witness to the unifying power of divine grace.

4. The Jubilee of the Year 2000 is above all a pressing invitation to all Christians to recommit themselves to holiness of life. True holiness does not mean a flight from the world; rather, it lies in the effort to incarnate the Gospel in everyday life, in the family, at school and at work, and in social and political involvement. Holiness is the fullness of life which Christ offers: he has come that we "may have life, and have it abundantly" (Jn 10:10). This is our marvellous vocation!

Likewise, the approaching third millennium brings the urgent challenge of the new evangelization. True, it is not easy to proclaim the Gospel in a world which claims not to need God. Yet we are bound by the compelling words of St Paul: "Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel" (1 Cor 9:16). Today, this proclamation must be accompanied by a commitment to ecumenism: "In these last years of the millennium, the Church should invoke the Holy Spirit with ever greater insistence, imploring from him the grace of Christian unity." In this perspective too, I wish to encourage your communities to a further strengthening of their ecclesial character, at the doctrinal level and in programmes of formation, as the only sure basis for genuine ecumenical dialogue and action.

5. My dear brothers and sisters in Christ: again I thank you for all that you do in the service of the Church. Through the intercession of Mary, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, I entrust to Christ, the Lord of history, your spiritual journey towards the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000 and beyond. To each of you and your families, and to all the communities belonging to the Catholic Fraternity, I cordially impart my Apostolic Blessing.

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God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 04, 2000.

Wow...well thank you for such a thorough response! From the Holy Father's wording, it appears he's very accepting of the charismatics. I wonder why it's not a global acceptance on behalf of the local clergy...but as you said, there may be reasons veiled to me for my own good.

Yours in Christ,

-- Christina Triana (RomeChurch@aol.com), April 05, 2000.


Hi Christina, Please think carefully regarding the Charismatics. The Catholic Church and its teachings were handed down from our Lord Jesus Christ to the first Pope. Surely, we should be acting as a guide to other churches - NOT learning from them. We are taught to love and respect the Holy Ghost - how can we be so presumptuous as to think that we can call on Him to help us 'speak in tongues'? Besides, why 'speak in tongues'? This was done once to prove a point but is not necessary today. What 'tongues' are being spoken anyway? We have to remember that there are good and evil spirits in this world. How do we know we are not speaking 'evil tongues'? The solemnity of the Mass should be protected and revered - this is not possible with all the dancing that takes place in Charismatic masses. Our religion is a silent communication of the three Churches - militant (on earth), suffering (purgatory), and triumphant (Heaven). We do not involve ourselves in the external demonstrations exhibited by the Pentecostal church - much less learn from them. If you are seeking answers, please read the lives of the saints. I'd also highly recommend Fr. Schouppe's books' 1. PURGATORY - Explained by the lives and legends of the Saints 2. HELL and how to avoid Hell

Please think twice Christina...I've mistakenly attended a Charismatic prayer session and "someting just wasn't right"... God bless you, Lillian

-- Lillian H. K (jerrytommygal@hotmail.com), April 07, 2000.


Lillian, what about the address posted above, which quotes the Holy Father as saying, "In these last years of the millennium, the Church should invoke the Holy Spirit with ever greater insistence, imploring from him the grace of Christian unity." ...in addition to the full context of the message?

I have never spoken in tongues, nor do I want to, because frankly, I have my own fear of it. It would seem that unless you had near unblemished faith, inviting a spirit to speak through you would be of grave risk.

From time to time I watch TBN. Most times, just to see what they're saying about the Catholic Church...i.e. propaganda like the antichrist will rise out of Rome. Hmmm...you don't think they mean our Pope do you? I can't stand it. Anyway, a very common practice on that station is the speaking of tongues. It has always scared me because, as you said, how do we know it's not evil things that they're saying? We don't.

My interest in the Catholic Charismatic movement, however, was aside of tongues. I was attracted to the joy that others have professed about it and was simply curious. Surely speaking in tongues can't be the only difference can it? There must be other things.

I also find it odd to think that anyone would count them out based on the phenomena of tongues. Out Church is filled with apparitions, miracles, and so many other ethereal gifts...speaking in tongues seems calm to the stigmata or various other instances where the Lord has made himself known to us. Even still, I don't want to hear anything that I don't understand. How confused do I sound???? Sorry:)

I'm staying put at Saint Luke's...which is very calm and peaceful...where I understand every word uttered by the priest:) But, I still believe that if the Charismatics adhere to all the teachings of the Church in Sacrament and so forth, then they should be considered Catholic..especially if they have the Holy Father's blessing.

Yours in Christ,

-- Christina Triana (RomeChurch@aol.com), April 07, 2000.


[posted by J. F. Gecik, April 7, 2000 p.m.]

I commend you, Christina, for the wisdom of your reply to Lillian. You are well-advised to proceed with caution, especially with respect to "other tongues," the single most visible manifestation of the pentecostal/charismatic movement. (You wondered whether or not there are other aspects of this spirituality. Yes, there are other so-called charismatic gifts of the Spirit alleged to be happening with some frequency, after almost two millenia in which they were very rarely seen. First I should say that there are supposed to be some gifted in speaking in tongues and some gifted in interpreting what is spoken. Then there are prophecy, healing, working of miracles, "discernment/distuinguishing of spirits," "utterance of wisdom," and "utterance of knowledge." Some would add to this list the handling of deadly snakes and drinking poison without being harmed.)

Some early Christians are said to be speaking in tongues in a few passages in the Acts of the Apostles. In the gospel according to St. Mark, Jesus says that believers will manifest certain phenomena, including tongues. But almost all our scriptural knowledge of the "charismatic gifts" is centered in one biblical chapter -- the 14th of St. Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians. Before quoting the whole chapter to you, let me just show two verses that may be especially interesting to you, Christina, in your present decision-making ...

1 Cor 14:27-28 -- If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn; and let one interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silence in church and speak to himself and to God.

Scripture scholar, Fr. William Most, wrote many articles and books, knew the ancient biblical languages, and taught orthodox seminary courses for over 40 years. He tells us: "[T]he mass phenomenon of praying in tongues does not fit with St. Paul's injunctions in 1 Cor 14: 27-28 where Paul specifies that no more than three should speak in tongues, and then only one at time, and only if there is someone to interpret. The rule is wise, for there are cases [ of charismatic gatherings, in which there was no charismatic interpreter of tongues, but there were other] persons who knew the needed languages ...; and they found that some did praise God well, while others cursed Him." Thus, Christina, we must avoid any gathering in which there is no charismatic interpreter of tongues, as well as any gathering in which more than one person speaks in tongues at the same time.

And now, I will quote the RSV translation of Mark 16:17-18 and 1 Cor 14, so that you may read more about tongues and other charismatic gifts. If you read carefully, you will come away realizing that it is dead-wrong for any person, movement, or Christian denomination to claim that these gifts are universally given by God, ought to be sought and expected, etc.. Verses 27 to 31 are especially important on this point.

Mark 16:17-18 ... [Jesus said, just before ascending] ... And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

1 Corinthians, chapter 12 (all verses) ...
1: Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be uninformed.
2: You know that when you were heathen, you were led astray to dumb idols, however you may have been moved.
3: Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus be cursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit.
4: Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit;
5: and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord;
6: and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.
7: To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
8: To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit,
9: to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
10: to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
11: All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.
12: For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.
13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14: For the body does not consist of one member but of many.
15: If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
16: And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.
17: If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?
18: But as it is, God arranged the organs in the body, each one of them, as he chose.
19: If all were a single organ, where would the body be?
20: As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21: The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22: On the contrary, the parts of the body which seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23: and those parts of the body which we think less honorable we invest with the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24: which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part,
25: that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26: If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27: Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.
28: And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues.
29: Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30: Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
31: But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.
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God bless and guide you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 07, 2000.


Who is qualified to interpret tongues? The priest? Can we trust anybody? I have read too many horro stories of people letting protestant teachings overtake catholicism with the charismatics. It seems to me that tongues becomes more important than the Eucharist and more desired. I'll admit I don't know much about the charistmatic movement, but I know pleanty about Pentecostals.....Sounds dangerous, no thanks... Pamela

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), April 09, 2000.

Another thought that came to mind reading John's post is that in the charistmatic movement the focus seems to be more on US than Jesus. Thta is idolatry right there.... Also I am not convinced that speaking in tongues didn't just mean speaking in different human languages. Otherwise, the one to interpret doesn't make sense. Who was this trusted interpreter? Who has been entrusted with interpreting today? The head of the Church.... Pamela

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), April 09, 2000.

I have often wondered: on Pentecost day did the Apostles actually speak in different languages or did they speak in their native tongue and the listeners each one heard in his own? Was it a miracle of Speaking or one of Listening?

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), April 11, 2000.


Very good Question!!!

-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), April 11, 2000.

Dear Enrique and Pamela,
Your question was admirably addressed on another thread by Chris Butler, as follows:

"Before we move on to Paul's account of tongues, however, it might be helpful to refute another interpetation of Acts 2 that has sometimes been advanced: that the miracle there was not on the part of the speaker but on the part of the listener. That is, some argue that since the text says each 'hears in his own language,' that means that the speaker is speaking something normal, and the Holy Ghost translates it for each listener into the listener's own language. There are all sorts of problems with such a view, however. First, it says specifically that "tongues of fire" settle over those who will be *speaking*; second, it then immediately says that these speakers begin '*speaking* in different tongues' (that should be enough in itself to dispel any notion that the miracle is on the listening end); third, if we proceed on the assumption that Paul means the same thing by 'speaking in tongues' that Luke does, we know clearly from 1 Cor 14 that it is possible to 'speak in tongues' and **not** be understood. Paul makes that very, very clear in 1 Cor 14. If such is possible, then the expression 'speaking in tongues' **cannot** refer to a miracle whereby a speaker is miraculously understood. :-)"

Peace.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 11, 2000.


Dear Christina,

It has been an year since you asked about Catholic Charistmatics and today only I found your question. I can't refrain from writing to you although I am late an year! All because I am a Catholic basically and then a Charistmatic!

By this time, I think you have come across several steps to become more indulged in Christian love - thru' Charistmatic renewal. Becoming Charismatic is just renaissance in Christian love. Chartismatics are definitely bound to Catholic Church but they enjoy inner peace and joy and can come out from all trials successfully.

We can have more discussions and I can share my experience once you notice this response.

Your brother in Jesus

Thomas Joseph

-- Thomas Joseph (tjsrampical@hotmail.com), May 24, 2001.


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