After politics was thoroughly revamped--I thought we might move on to the next system that needs trashed--Health Care ! Did you realize that the nurses(that you may need in an emergency to save your life) have been on duty for 16 hours ? They can't walk much less run to help you. Don't worry though--the doctor they called is a 2nd year med student who was asleep in the emergency room. I admire Doctor alla babba dumassmd --- he can't speak or understand english but he was the only guy in the place that knew what he was trying to do(get some sleep! I'm not bashing nurses( I want my supper) and I'm married to a flight nurse, but she is the first to admit that 75% of state licenced doctors can't find their parking place --much less what is wrong with you. I thought of a new plan--Alternative Medicine--put a gun to your HMO providers head and leave them, NO ALTERNATIVE but to bring in their top people to help you. What can we do to fix this boggess system of health care that has been dumped in our laps ? What was so wrong with Doc Adams that lived around the corner that we made him quit? Joel Rosen

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 05, 2000

Answers

Well Joel, you could be like me and not be able to use the services of a regular doctor in most cases no matter how good he is. This may not be the correct terminology but I have chemical poisoning, from childhood. I am allergic to 99.9% of medication, not to mention all the other things I'm allergic to (except poison ivy, pollen and highly allergic foods). I would like to find a dentist that knows accupucture, the dentist around here won't even talk to me. So you can do what I have done just this week, try a nutritional chiropractor. There are also herbs, glandulars, homeopathy, reflexology etc. I know these don't help you in an emergency room. These professionals generally take more time with you. They have more patience with their patients. And then again, if we lived like I haven't been lately,, we wouldn't need as many doctors or nurses. Most nurses are worth their weight in gold. I would like to hear from anyone that has my problem, on this forum or by e-mail. Doc Adams still lives around somebody's corner, he's afraid of mal- practice.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), April 05, 2000.

I like your style Joel! I agree, the health care system sucks. Its too expensive and too intrusive. One thing that could be changed is to adopt the practice of Chineese herbalists---no healing no pay.

Another is for the populace to make greater use of alternatives, thus showing the establishment another way and providing a little competition for the legally sanctioned monopoly they have now.

Do a web search for "rife technology" for an eye opening view of a genuine suppressed medical technology.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 05, 2000.

With Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) you pay the practitionaer AS LONG AS YOU ARE HEALTHY (in other words, the majority of the time). So note that this means you only DON'T pay when you are sick. Which means I STILL couldn't afford that care!

-- MM (Marshwiggle1@aol.com), April 05, 2000.

Joel, you sure like to tackle the tough ones! I think Cindy nailed a big part of it. The Drs. are so afraid of malpractice that they have all joined one conglomerate or another. In our nearest town of 35,000 we can't walk into the drs. office with an illness anymore. You have to make an appointment and wait from a week to 4 weeks depending on how popular the dr. is. If you are really sick, go the the emergency room ( for about 1,500 bucks) or the urgent care room ( about 750 bucks). The huge outfit that has most of the doctors here also owns the hospital now, and has a majority of the doctors in the main clinic in the neighboring town of 100,000 ( also a big hospital there). The bottom line is the almighty dollar. As usual, I have no solutions. It's too complicated for me right now. Just getting my parents to their respective doctors is all I can handle. Mom won't see a male Dr. and doesn't like the female she sees. She wants the emergency doctor who was nice to her but SHE only does the emergency room! Dad will see anyone but they keep sending him from one specialist to another until he just gives up and can't take it any more.(Cancer, severe arthritis, and diabetes). Sorry to get so wordy, I guess it's just been a bad day.

-- Peg (jnjohnsn@pressenter.com), April 05, 2000.

Joel, I don't have an answer, just an observation. I work in a natural foods store. We have two types of customers; those who see the undeniable link between food choices and illness, and those who feel safer asking me for help than their doctor. The first group are folks of all ages. Many, like myself, have lost family members at much too young an age to diseases that are preventable. We have got to take more responsibility for ourselves! Cancer and heart disease are not unavoidable, despite what the medical community wants us to believe. Think of the money they would lose if we all stopped eating chemicals, pesticides, artificial this and that. There was a time when I actually defended doctors; I thought they really couldn't be blamed for how little they knew about nutrition, they weren't taught much about it in medical school. Now it just makes me angry. Why aren't doctors telling women about the link between the phosphates in softdrinks and osteoporosis, or excess protein and bone loss? Every time a woman tells me her doctor recommends Tums for calcium I want to scream! Well, the more prescriptions they write for Premarin (pregnant mare urine, for anyone who didn't know) the bigger the house, the nicer the car. Sorry, I just feel very strongly about this. Anyway, the other group of customers I see are the ones who are terrified of going to the doctor. They know all about the nasty (deadly?) side effects of prescription medications. You take one pill, then you need another one to combat the nausea or light-headedness caused by the first one. The better your insurance coverage is, the more tests they need to do, and the longer it takes to figure out what's wrong with you. Don't misunderstand, if I were in a terrible car accident, I wouldn't want the woman at the healthfood store to try to put me back together, but I've seen so many people get jerked around by the medical profession. They need us to be sick, and weak, and fearful of their authority. I just wish we would collectively take back the power we've given them. Read the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by James F. Balch. Learn to treat the body, not suppress the symptom.

-- Cathy Horn (hrnofplnty@webtv.net), April 05, 2000.

I agree with Cathy! Take some responsibility! Health (usually) doesn't just *happen* these days! Sheesh!

While there are lots of reasons why people get sick or injured, I am still so amazed at how irresponsibly people treat their bodies, and then expect "someone else" to fix them. Also, how many sick and twisted things people do to their bodies in the interest of appearance...latest I heard was girls in California getting rid of their navels, for heaven's sake! At school I see all these bulbous middle aged women (my age!) carrying their books in those little wheeled luggage things. Okay, some of them might have back problems (caused directly by the same fat which creates the need for luggage thing usage!) but how come women don't know that weight bearing exercise helps them prevent osteoporosis? Get some exercise. And hey, I like a glass of wine, or two, or sometimes three, and I used to smoke about 20 years ago so I'm not a saint, but I really have a hard time seeing people not exercise, not eat right, do other abusive things, from lifting stuff wrong to doing nasty drugs...and then go to the doctor's office all the time, creating a demand for the doc's time and then the rates go up. Then the insurance vultures are there to get whatever they can....it's just like anything else...it all starts with the individual!!!

Sorry, I lost it! I thought politics was a hot topic. Health, to me, is even more so! (Joel, you are a provocateur!!!) And yeah, managed care *was* a nice concept (health maintenance spawn..I grew up with Group Health, one of the first in the nation) but now it's just another big industry sucking what's left of the lifeblood out of the rest of us.

Whew. Thanks for letting me vent! Get outside and turn the teevee off, America! (includes Canada, and the America wannabees, too!) Now, just hope I don't come down with some nastiness for all my hubris!!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 05, 2000.

Given Joel's last thought provoking and highly debated post, I guess I can get everyone upset here about what most perceive as socialism and I think is humanism. We lived in the UK for years. My view of socialized medicine is very positive. Eveyone had medical care available!! We didn't need a doctors appt. just went during open practice hours. I had ear surgery there and had to wait a very short time (I had heard horrow stories of long waits). We had a local clinic in our village and I always saw the same doctor. If the GP couldn't handle it we were refereed to a doctor at the hospital.

I guess the truly good thing about the medical system in this country is that we don't use it. My children (ages 12, 9 and 7) have never been on antibiotics. They are fortunate to be of extreme good health. Unlike my childhood (spent with smoking parents and having been immunized for everthing immaginable) they do not suffer ear infections, allergies, or chronic colds. I don't pretend that I have done some great job protecting them from disease, I am just thankful everyday for their health.

Health insurance is one thing that really keeps folks from homesteading. I sure wish there was an easy answer.

Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), April 05, 2000.

P.s. I count some doctors as friends of mine. They are extremely upset with this system, too, so don't just diss them!! The insurance companies get MORE percentage of what you pay them than the doctors.. I know one doc who is so dedicated that he calls on people at home that aren't even his patients...just happen to go to the same church.

And as far as the malpractice thing driving this, who files the suits???Hey that would be LAWYERS, but that's another whole big uglyyyyyy topic, too.

Bottom line again, folks: GREED..it's EVERYWHERE...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 05, 2000.

I am one of the lucky ones in this system of pomp and circumstance ! I looked up one day and realized that all the answers to my families medical questions were on my wifes 4 x 8 bookself. Along with 12 years of experience from my wife that we had a doctor in the house. With a grandmother that is 103 and my parents in their 80's I still need answers to tuff medical situations. Mostly--how are they supposed to pay for that treatment after they no longer are wage earners? Am I for socialized medicine? yes maybe probably-at least for those who have passed the age of physical wage earning. That could be any age--some people are born with disabilities that prevent them from wage earning. Those people are my respondsibility as a human being. This group does not include willie the wino or suzi the herion addict. I see my doctor once a year for a PSA test and she hates me. She claims our family system of medicine is playing russian roullette with our health(translated --that is--you not paying me enough). A trauma nurse with a RN-BSN is a doctor folks! However--if I could give you back half of your taxes and you would invest your own social security and gave you free medical care--would I increase your standard of living ? Would you feel more in control of making your own decisions ? Yes-I love tuff topics ! I need your opinions to formulate answers. Any man can look in the mirror and say --I got the answer--and no man can look at all the problems and repeat the same.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 06, 2000.

Here we go again....I have been in Nursing for 30 years and a Nurse Practitioner for 25.There are two sides to every story, and medicine has more thn that,depending upon with whom you speak. 30 years ago, it was very common for the family doctor to admit people to the hospital for "overall body fatigue", order them a private room and special nurses, keep them there for 2 or 3 weeks and bill the insurance company for the whole thing.Of course, the "patient" was a wealthy businessman or an attorney.30 years ago, people went to the doctor and presented a list of symptoms...i.e. "I have a pain here, what do you think it is?" They trusted the doctor to examine them, perhaps order appropriate tests, and come up with a diagnosis and a cure.Doctors actually knew, for the most part, what they were doing.Then came lawsuits.A newborn dies...it MUST be the fault of somebody, so people started in on the doctors.There was no longer any such thing as "fate", "the hand of God", etc. Somebody had to pay.So doctors began paying more than $100,000/year in malpractice insurance and ordering all kinds of needless tests just to document that the patient did not have some rare tropical disease.Insurance companies screamed at the cost of all of this.Doctors shrugged and said,"it's not our fault"..patient's shrugged and said " somebody must pay",lawyers shrugged and said "we protect the public from incompetent physicians".Along came Managed Care.companies who dictate the tests/length of hospital stays, and reimbursement for services.Strange how Managed Care companies cannot be sued.Managed care companies hired alot of physicians from third world countries..hmmmmmmm no English, substandard education....cheap.Magazine articles screamed "Your doctor doesn't know everything".."self-diagnose your illness"..Ok, so people did.Now, people go to the doctor and say "I have a pain here, it's appendicitis, admit me to the hospital or I'll sue you." I can't count the number of people who come into my office and DEMAND antibiotics for a simple cold, or an MRI for a sinus headache, or INSIST that I order expensive sophisticated tests that they don't need.Professionals in Nursing or medicine have to fight the Insurance industry, the lawyers AND the patients.This is a multifaceted problem, but it starts with the individual patient.I have sooooooo much more to say in the way of blowing off steam, but I have to go to work and tell people "no" for most of my day.Yuck.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), April 06, 2000.

Another thought: Are people really getting sick, or are they being talked into it? If you watch the t.v. news, you'll hear reports on some kind of cancer almost everyday. All forms of media make sure it's always on your mind. That's not good. Manipulaion is never good. Then one day you'll take aspirin, the next day don't take aspirin, the next day take aspirin to prevent heart attack. It's all very confusing esp. to lonely older people. It seems people, at least in this country, expect to be sick when they reach a certain age, they prepare for it years in advance. And another thing: People have been taking vitamins and herbs for many years with few side affects. I'm sure Cathy can testify to that. Of course, regular doctors know little if anything about these and almost nothing about nutrition. (I don't know if this is true, but I've been told doctors only take six hours of nutrition).Every time there's a report about something that works such as vitamin E, there be more reports that they don't work. Of course if it does work, the doctors and pharmacists can't make money off of it. Do you realize just how much the pharmacists run your lives? Do you realize that doctors,the AMA, pharmacists, insurance co. and adverisers really do run people lives in America. I think you should re-read Cathy's contribution, she makes lots of sense. It's your health and life, it's hard to stand up and say no, but you can take responsibility for yourself and your family's health. I wished I'd never stopped doing what I knew was right, now I have to start over. Sorry if I haven't stayed focused, it's part of the chemical poisoning. Oh, I've met more than one nurse that knew more about what was going on than the doctor.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), April 06, 2000.

Joel ~ your philosophy and mine are seldom the same. But, by golly, you are the master at starting a controversy! I must agree with all my friend Lesley had to say (another aside - I've corresponded with a number of you, but Maggie & I actually met Lesley and Neil!). To the heart of the matter - socialized medicine is, in my opinion, a dreadful failure. We in Maine see elderly folks going to Canada to buy prescription drugs, but that is the fault of the oppressive policies of the FDA. We also see really sick folks (read cancer patients, as an example) headed south to the US to get treatment, which is the fault of socialized medicine. Friends, Socialism is the good friend of Communism, and the present administration, in bed with the Chinese, is guiding us down that road. Careful! Well. I digress with the best of them! I have had 3 occurrences where I was almost dead. The good doctors and nurses, plus my ornernieness, brought me through. If I had socialized medecine, as do our (I'm talking USA folks here as "our") good friends to the north, you would all likely be spared these diatribes that I write and you so frequently endure. (Didn't mean to be cryptic, but what I meant was I'd be dead.) So then what would you do for entertainment? Live long and prosper! Also - Good Luck!

-- Brad (homefixer@mix-net.net), April 06, 2000.

Okay, guys - keep this thread going for another day or so for me, would you? I've got to go put in my 12 hours playing Florence Nightengail, so I don't have the time to put my thoughts together right now. Be back tomorrow night! Polly

PS - had to down load and print the "what if" topic. Really enjoyed all the thoughtful answes .

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), April 06, 2000.

Polly, Moultrie where? Also, when I first learned about the Nurses 12 hour days, I wigged out. My question is: did any Nurses voluntarily take the 12 hours? What was the other choice? Does anyone want to touch on inept Dentists or the random evil greedy Dentist who will lie about what treatment the patient actually needs, for monetary gain?

-- Coal Mine and (thecomp@ny.store), April 06, 2000.

To answer your question--I remember when my wife went to twelve hour shifts in the late 80's. Hospitals were downsizing and they layed off the orderlies,CMA's, CNA,s, and a lot of LPN's. They combined their duties and made the RN's do it. At the same time they brought in management teams that managed to screw everything up. Overpaid consultants that didn't know the difference between a bedpan and a patient. Everything became a statistic. The schedules were so screwed up that they had you work a 7pm to 7am and come back at 3pm for another double shift. Things have not changed much since than. Therefore my wife chose a weekend package that took her schedule out of the idiots hands. She works Friday 7pm to 7am Saturday 7am to 7pm Sunday 3pm to 7am and gets paid for 48 plus weekend bonus and night shift differential. I remember that the choices in the 80's were like it or leave and Iowa passed a law that if you tried to organize a strike the nurses could be jailed for some made up charge like indifference to life. They should have jailed the hospitals for the same charge for their indifference. Yes--I had a dentist try to sell me a bill of goods--2800.00 to clean my teeth,fill a cavity and pull a bad molar. He claimed cleaning under my gums was a surgical procedure and he would have to do it in 4 visits. I went elsewhere and had the work done in about an hour and he put me to sleep for 160.00 bucks. I agree with leslie also--that is what happened to the medical field --but--tests are not as expensive as they claim they are. Everything is super inflated in cost. For one example--the plastic tubes they use cost about 300 dollars in the hospital while you can buy the identical tube( water supply line for a icemaker) and dip it in alcohol and have the same device for 2.99. This debate is all well and good but on a more serious note--PLEASE, make a living will complete with DNR orders(if that is your wish) and make sure everyone knows where to find it. File it with your doctor ,your lawyer, your kids,the hospital and the family pet ! Discuss it with everyone you love and trust and make sure everyone knows your wishes. Hospitals are no longer care giveing facilities--they are a business and they will milk your family for every last drop of your money. When your broke than they quit. After all they are selling what everyone has to have--eternal life.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 06, 2000.

Brad,

Socialized medicine does not mean socialism or communism. I have lived with both systems and I must say I got very good care under socialized medicine. Without a doubt I prefer properly managed socialized medicine to the insurance / HMO nightmare we have in this country right now!! I know others may dissagree but my experiences have been very different than the stark possibilities you suggest. My in-laws still live in the UK (not a socialist country or a communist country but our closest ally) and have overcome many dire illnesses, including breast cancer and reconstructive surgery, colon problems, infertility treatments etc. To suggest that people are left to die in countries that have a true socialized medical system is not only in correct but a very misleading thing to do. I can relay many horrows of the American medical system to you - that doesn't mean it is all bad.

Our closest friends in the UK had thought about homesteading in the US (one is an ex pat), but couldn't see doing it with no medical benefits. They have a small child and just couldn't afford private insurance. They ended up moving to Wales on a much smaller homestead instead.

Brad, I hope this doesn't sound like I am attacking your personally, I enjoy your posts but I can't agree with you here. I do look forward to making that tomatoe basil pie and I am sure I will be singing your praises then though. To say that countries with a fair and available medical system are socialist or communist, I find very offensive.

Lesley, Man do I have respect for you. I know you have a tough job - it reminds me of when I took my 5 year old to the doctors because he had a splinter we just couldn't manage to get out. The doctor removed it and asked me if my son was allergic to antibiotics. I said I didn't know because he had never had them. The doctor was shocked, and I said you aren't giving him antibiotics for a sliver are you. He said no, not if I didn't want them. He was a really good country doc - I don't fault him, I know he offerend them because 95% of his patients expected them. My sons foot healed no problems!!! I really do suspect the human race is driving themself to extinction with the over use of antibiotics,,,,,,,okay extinction is an exaggeration but it certainly is a problem.

Best Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), April 06, 2000.

Kim, I'm not sure extinction is an overexaggeration!!!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 07, 2000.

I agree with Brad. Socialized medicine is only a forerunner of socialism completely. Kim, uyou fail to look at the reat of England and the entire "Dole" scenario. I have had punker friends that are from England and they even admit that it only causes people to be irresponsible with their abilities resources and life choices. If there is no problem getting "free" medical treatment, there is no need to be responsible.

The best way to stay healthy is to stay out of the doctor's office, hospital, or day care center!

I have to go work my 15 hour day, the joy of self-employment!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 07, 2000.

Coal Mine : Moultrie, as in county in E. Central Illinois.

I am an RN (medical/surgical/monitored care) at a 200 bed hospital that covers a university (no med school) and community college town, plus a multitude of smaller rural towns, most of which have no MD offices. I am a nurse by choice - I love what I do. (okay, most of what I do) I work 12 hours, by choice, and I also work night shift by choice. I work Mon/Fri/Sat one week and Sun/Wed/Thur the next. I get $1/hr extra for working this shift. Overtime is regularly available, and I have never been forced to work it (I rarely turn it down if requested though, because I know that it means someone will be working short). This shift gives me a lot more time to spend with my family and on the farm, and I have all of those lovely daylight hours available. I have no more difficulty getting through a 12 hr night than I do my 8 hr OT nights - actually, it gives me 4 extra hours to do the @#^*$% paperwork! A 12 hour shift limits the number of caregivers a patient has, and the nurse is also able to spend more time with the patient, which makes it a lot easier to notice when something just "ain't quite right". As far as socialized vs privatized or whatever kind of medicine we have now - I'd probably vote for socialized. Know why? Because the payment for the medical care of the patients that I care for most of the time already IS socialized - either Medicare or Medicaid. And they are the ones that stay the longest, and require the most care - because they are the ones with chronic illnesses, most of which are caused by poor lifestyle choices. To address the point of people not receiving the care they need under socialized medicine - okay, this is gonna make me unpopular, but...- a lot of people get a lot more care than they need (personal opinion only). I think that it was about my 2nd week in nursing school when I came to the realization that there are a hell of a lot of things that are worse than being dead. (And my family has had DNR pounded into their heads, along with organ donation and alternatives to blood transfusions). I get patients who have 20 and 30 daily medications. This is what is called a medical experiment, folks. Ain't no way that the manufacturers have tried out that many combos to see what meds potentiate or work against each other. And you will never convince me that ANYBODY needs that many meds. Or half, or a quarter that many. Other examples of fooishness: pacemakers being inserted in 80+ year old, bedridden, dementia, nursing home residents, ventilators when there is NO hope, resection of lower lobes of lungs on COPDers who continue to smoke.........I could go on and on, but I'm getting ready to begin my three days off work and I want to be happy, not aggravated! Many, many of the illnesses that I see can be avoided or managed by lifestyle choices. Every time I give a shot of Demerol to a certain frequent flyer in on back pain, I'm thinking: Hey -lose 50 pounds, get off your butt and out from in front of the TV, get a job, do an honest days labor, lay off the junk food, quit taking up space and time a really sick person might need. (And no, you won't see it in my attitude, either). Or the patient that has been to the ER 18 times already this year - she really needs to get another hobby, folks. Want to discuss the suicidal drug ODers - the ones you see over and over again? Makes you want to write a how-to manual..... Okay, enough from me already - I'm tired and it's showing. Thanks to everyone for all of the insights - I really enjoy all the thought provoking things I'm reading. So, Joel - what are we taking on next?! (I vote for the stock market and/or commodity markets, or farm subsidies!)

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), April 07, 2000.

I'm currently attending Palmer Chiropractic in Davenport and my DW is a RN at the local hospital. You are so right in talking about lifestyle choices. Both of us grew up placing the medical profession on a pedestal. The more I learn, the more I know about caring for myself and my family. Prevention is better than a cure. Because of the years my wife has spent in the allopathic field, the harder and easier it is for her to accept alt. med. Easier because she sees how little the drugs actually help and harder because it goes against everything she has been taught. I have no problem with many of the things that "Medical" science can do. Both friends and family are alive because of that skill. A close family friend is our family doctor. I do think, though, that to rely on a profession whose main focus is the treatment of symptoms is very limiting. Many of the problems that are treated by md's are the result of poor lifestyle choices and though the symptom may go away, the cause is still there.

-- Robert W Berchtold (robberch@earthlink.net), April 07, 2000.

We are just now beginning to get to the heart of the controversy. What is a long life? 50--65--103 ? At what point does life cease to be useful,fun,or worth the cost? Yes-we made uninformed eating choices(like Mcdonalds and the like) to much protein,to much tv and couch. We smoked pesticide laced tobacco, and got twice as much ddt in our veggies ! Yet we saw non-smoking vegetarians and health nuts stroke out at age 35. Could it be that we are born to die? I think so ! So do we let someone else sentence us to pay more for how we lived ? Instead of blaming tobacco for every form of cancer--remember--you never heard of cancer before pesticides and herbicides. I myself hope I never have to sign a SSI request. If the sun doesn't come up tomorrow --I have lived life to the fullest, I've seen my grandchildren, and I stood up for what I thought was right. No man could expect more !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 07, 2000.

Hey Sheepish...don't blame the lawyers...someone has to hire them.

-- Anne (Healthytouch10@hotmail.com), April 07, 2000.

Anne, Oh I know, it just kills me to say this, but I also have friends that are attorneys! Not many, but... I know *somebody* has to hire lawyers but there are those who solicit business based on Deep Pockets Theory (if you don't believe that, watch the bazillion lawsuits going after Microsoft). Until there is some kind of torte reform to limit some of this nonsense, we will never see the end of it! However, this thread is about alternative medicine.

As far as how long life should be, I guess I am finally getting used to it, and kind of like it! I think I would like to stick around for a while, so I am trying to stay healthy. Plus I took a lot of risks as a youth, and am grateful that I am priveledged enough to still be here!I have had to make some difficult medical decisions and I believe it's up to the patient with the advice of family, and doctor(s). Good idea to do the living will thing, power of attorney, etc. while you are still lucid. Other than that, I guess, when your time is up, it's up! I don't like to dwell on it...would rather enjoy my family (and hopefully vice versa) in the here and now.

BTW, I had some major surgery 6 years ago. Everyone on the operating team was a female (including me, of course!) and the only guy that came in was who got to clean up the mess. Just a little anecdote for laughs...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 07, 2000.

Polly,

Do you live in my part of the country? It sounds identical to where I live. It kills me to go to the dentist and pay exhorbitant amounts to have our teeth cleaned and watch others come in and have it all done for free. I'm not knocking all medicare and medicaid recipients, just the ones that need to get off their couches and get to work. I realize that many are truly needy folks and I'm glad we social programs for them. When the "Big Eagle" flies over our town you might as well forget going to the post office, grocery or anywhere else! My mother in law worked at a dentist office for a while and in scheduling patients actually had one say she couldn't come in for a 9 o'clock appointment because her family NEVER woke up before 10:30AM!!!!

Now, for the lawyer part of the equation, you are all absolutely right. I am married to a lawyer, have worked as a court reporter and could not agree with you more. Too many law schools, too many mediocre test scores that are let in, too many lawyers, too many people that feel since they went to law school they are entitled to a certain standard of living and will do anything to get it. When you look back at movies like "To Kill a Mockingbird", did Addicus live in a great big mansion and drive a mercedes? NO! And neither did most other small town lawyers (or doctors for that matter). This isn't an attitude limited to laywers in our society though...it crosses all boundaries. Why else would women work 8 hours a day so that they could go home exhausted, work some more and pay to have someone else watch their kids and cook their food? Boy have I digressed!!!! This should be a whole different thread! Just to wrap up the loose ends though, my husband still works in the legal field although dreams of the happy days he spent as a disc jockey! We have high hopes of retiring early and traveling the country with our little Winnebago! Maybe someday down the road....(HA HA) In the meantime we are privileged employees of the State of Kentucky and we get to pay $400 a month for family insurance (in addition to the employer contribution) and for this benefit we only have to pay $25 for a doctors visit! (no dental included!) I'm thankful for this though because if we weren't state employees we would be paying six to seven hundred dollars for the same privilege! Is the health care system corrupt? Yes...just like many other things! Ce la vie! Jennifer

-- Jennifer (jkmills@freewwweb.com), April 07, 2000.

The issue of how long or under what circumstances and to what degree we should go to preserve a life are integral to the entire "sickness" that controls the medical industry. Like most evil it all comes down to money and how can we possibly get more of it.

The insurance racket is just that. The companies have found a way to play on everyone's fears of having an incident that they won't be able to pay for and they are basically running a gambling ring with ever increasing stakes. So far most people are still willing to play the game so they (the insurance companies) are INSURED of continued income.

Since I am self-employed and if I fall down and break my leg my company is in very deep trouble I decided to get insurance a few years ago. The first six months it was $92.00 per month with a $2,000.00 deductible. Then they raised it even though I had no claims and hadn't been to a doctor to $105.00 per month same deductible. Two months later still no claims another increase to $127.00 per month. I opted out at that point as I figured I could pay for a broken leg on the installment plan at the hospital just as easily, IF it were to occur. They also charged a membership fee and two months premium in advance, so the insurance company ended up making over $1,000.00 off of me and put maybe $20.00 into correspondence and filing on me. Pretty nice profit margin, don't you think?

As far as the preservation of life goes, man, we have to go sometime, don't we? In the scheme of eternity we are only here for a drop of time and why would anyone want to live forever anyway? I think that quality far outweighs quantity in the age area. I have seen friends with terminal brain cancer get the complete gamut of drugs so that they weren't even close to lucid and were dying horribly and all the meds in the world only made it worse. There isn't anything as devastating as watching someone you love die slowly. I am against physician assisted suicide, but I am also against protraction of agony to try a new drug out!

Ultimately I feel that the medical establishment has come to serve the financial sector in a much larger fashion than it, itself, would like. I admire people who have the heart and giving nature to be able to care for the extremely ill. It's tough on the soul, and my heart goes out to you.

If doctors could just be doctors and not in partnership with all of the pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies and HMO's and government research facilities and...and ...and...On an interesting note, some of the pharmaceutical companies are also owned by the parent companies of pesticide companies and they can't work against each other now, can they?

When you finally figure out that the industry thrives only if you keep feeding it by paying the premiums and eating the brightly packaged toxins, you can change the effect on you and yours and start doing all of the truly healthful things that work with nature instead of against it.

Ah, Joel, thanks for opening another giant barrel of monkeys!

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 07, 2000.

Well said Doreen. Much better than I did. I think expressed more of my frustration than opinions!

-- Jennifer (jkmills@freewwweb.com), April 08, 2000.

THERE IT IS ! That is the answer I've been waiting for and Thank You, Doreen ! Stop paying for racketeering. At first many will continue to pay insurance but after a short time they will realize they are paying for everyone, and they will stop also. Ben Franklin introduced insurance to America, it was a crime than and it is a crime today. The best way to revolt against any injustice is to starve it out. Since politics and health care depend on our money to survive--than quit paying ! They have to give us urgent care and they don't have enough jails to hold us. Sure, some will die, some of us will go to jail but only for a short time. It would only take 6 months to deplete the government of resources and 1 month to make the HMO's cash out there interest and run. I say --if we can make a better world for our children than it is not something we ought to do--it is something we have to do !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 08, 2000.

How come every "solution" to these big problems seems to be: don't pay for services, don't participate, seceed from the union, ....etc. This is getting depressing again. I have some ideas, but am too depressed to write them out! Nobody will consider them if they don't involve the violent overthrow of something....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 08, 2000.

Sheepish, I'd like to hear your ideas.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

Me too--sheepish. I want to hear them when you feel better(soon we hope). How is not paying for services or secession or non-participation violent ? These are the non-violent means of revolution. I might speculate that you are saying " I have a perfect life, everything I worked for is mine and I'm happy" This is not the case for the majority of people and with the government raining hell fire and brimstone on tobacco and farming in general. Shooting anyone that confronts them and stealing money from any business that has more money than they do(tobacco and microsoft). I understand the hobby farmer but he hasn't much of a clue about paying taxes on multible acreas and production quotas. If America wants a sustainable food supply than you better start listening to what farmers say ! We cannot continue to overdose our land chemicals to feed the public.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 08, 2000.

Okay, I will come back with some thoughts. I have 3 tests on Monday and papers due, so when I have time...

(pout mode off) (rant mode on)

But lest anyone here think I live a charmed and privileged life at the expense of others, whoo boy, that would be a major scream. My husband and I both grew up with our families barely scraping by. Our first years of marriage we were so broke if it weren't for the public library and the free shows at the fairgrounds we would have just had to fight all the time for entertainment. We have both had our share of medical problems, and paid big bucks which we didn't have to deal with it. (my husband had surgery 2 weeks ago. Thank God for insurance). We are now living on one income and it's puny. (As if it was ever great). We save for everything and like to do nice things for ourselves like vacations when we get enough money, usually every couple of years. We have enough self esteem to know we deserve it. We drive a 21 year old car. Sometimes I spend many hours a week at my church doing things for those who live less charmed lives than myself. I also work in local organizations to help change things for the better. I take in stray animals, support community agriculture, try not to overconsume things, and generally like to think critically and act appropriately. Guess I am being defensive, huh? I consider myself to be an honest, hardworking, ethical person. Just because I don't live a life of "poverty" and despair shouldn't nulify my membership in the "I care about humanity club". I get the impression sometimes on this forum that unless one complains about stuff all the time and choses to be disenfranchised while they eke out a noble living "off the land" that they can't call themselves a homesteader (human being). ...Ok, is that enough? (Just trying to be as provocative as you, Joel!) (grin) Peace...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 08, 2000.

I apologize if I sounded like I thought your were living at the expense of others--sheepish. All those things you mentioned are honorable endeavors. However, they do not run the HMO's out of town and they don't stop "business as usual" politics. I need ideas that effect a whole nation--not one family,not one county or one state. I need ideas that turn the system upside down and shake it till all the unjust practices fall out and the money falls out like rain on the people as a whole. Non-violence in this endeavor is a positive. So--I say "Don't pay for systems that are not only flawed but criminal in origin" or actually Doreen said it best ! The quote I used in the previous post came from my mother " Me and your father worked all of our lives and we got what we wanted and I'm happy" My mother goes thru life with blinders on and her happiness is confined to her 4 walls and her church. Try to discuss real issues with her and she puts in her ear plugs and blindfold.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 08, 2000.

Joel, thank you for your reply. Sometimes I get tired of working my *** off for others and then thinking I hear someone questioning my integrity. I would love to hear what *actions* other forum participants do to actually help/address/solve these problems.. (I know there are some). Then maybe I wouldn't think I was hearing so much a) complaining or b) mere analysis, which is fine, but if not followed with action, become merely an academic exercises. A pleasant afternoon chat on the computer, and then, well...nothing.

Anyway...these thoughts are rambling as I have a lot to do and not much time online:

I would like to say that while I agree that using the medical system as it is continues to "enable" it, if you will, I don't think that refusing to pay (and I think you even mentioned going to jail) is right. Refusing to pay is theft any way you look at it. Rather than using a service and refusing to pay, which takes advantage of, and abuses others who provided the service, it would be far better to NOT USE THE SERVICES in the first place. That could mean as simple as staying healthy and not having to go to the clinic for stuff that could have been avoided (washing hands after using the toilet, lifting heavy objects with the back straight, etc.); trying alternative medicine, etc.. Cutting unnecessary demand for services can help mitigate the overuse and abuse of services at some clinics. Supply and demand...bring down the costs....how many tests do you need for 21st century out of shape and bored health care users?

When there is a real need for services, a patient could "conveniently" find a way to avoid going through an insurance company. That could eliminate some of the gouging going on. As it currently stands, that option isn't feasible for a lot of people, but OTOH, neither are exorbitant monthly premiums. Wouldn't it be better if we could arrive at a system of making payments "back door" to the doctor's offices? Like it used to be? Carry our own paper? Have the docs in cahoots with us to get the HMO's off our backs? I know some folk have issues with doctors being egotistical and "busy" but I know docs would love to get that HMO monkey off their back, too. And BTW, I mentioned this before, but how about working on torte reform to get the lawsuits under control? My dad had esophageal cancer and I certainly don't think it was the tobacco company's fault (although I hate them for other reasons) that my dad made stupid choices. Anyway, get the docs away from CYA medicine and back to what they should be doing, which is taking care of us.

I don't know if I have presented any really viable answer, and I am sure someone will have some sound reason for debating here, but I have a hard time with the notion of not paying and going to jail, etc. as the solution. I agree it's complicated, but I think we need to set standards for moral behavior (which obviously our leaders have abdicated) and figure out a way to do the right thing.

AND...we need to educate people! The biggest problem in our country is that we accept that it's okay for people to remain ignorant and then permit greedy people to take advantage of them. I believe that is true for just about every issue, not just this one. Ignorance plus apathy divided by greed. That's my real comment!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 08, 2000.

Your mother has a good point! She goes through life with blinders on, and is happy. You are intellectual to the point of YAWN, and are you happy? If the answer is yes than what is the differnce between you and your mom? If the answer is no, than how are you changing anything? These discussions are fine for intertainment value, but what else? We are true Countrysiders, 13 acres, self employed, Husband his own construction business, me a Dairy Goat Farmer. Garden, Chickens etc. But we are dependant on Medical Professionals, IRS, Police, Taxes, Electricity, Gasoline, all of these things that are being ranted about this last month on this forum. If you don't have medical insurance ie. HMO, than you are dependant upon your pocket book to pay, and if you can't pay then we as Tax Payers pay for State run Hospitals and Clinics. Its a viscious circle that I have still not heard anyone come up with a way to get off! I would like to hear something someone is doing, not just spouting off about. Like the gal who was talking about changing things at her local level. Some of you don't even vote! How can you change anything with no voice? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 08, 2000.

Vicki, if ignorance is indeed bliss, then America has blissful abundance! I don't buy the dumbing down for our own well being schtick.

I want honesty, value for my dollar, personal responsibility and FREEDOM from the prying, legislating, "take away their personal choices, cause they are too dumb to handle their own lives", we'll take care of you, power hungry jerks! (I was going to use an expletive, but maybe the children are reading- oh that's right now bitch is a common word on the ole' telly...silly me.)

The answer to the problem falls back to the individual,en masse. Yep, I am talking grass roots. And when you say that to Countrysider's you mean real grass with real roots, not hydroponic hot house, dying without it's generous infusion from the aforementioned power hungry jerks. Sorry, I am ranting, now.

What I really mean to say, is it all comes down to what it is that you thrive on. The aforementioned jerks, thrive on $$$$ and POWER. I thrive on freedom and access to knowledge, they don't like that because it is a direct threat. So, in a non-violent way, you follow the ancient tradition of war and do STARVE them out.

Doctor's are fine, as I said before I admire them and all health workers, but the system is the problem. They get $$ to prescribe XYZ Pharmaceuticals to HMO's subscribers and it is a vicious circle. How do you interrupt a malevolent cycle? You must stop it from feeding.

This isn't a bash session, it's the attempt to try to right wrongs, not through the tools of the biggest wrong-doers (read that lawsuits) but through honest, open thoughtful discussion of a topic.

P.S. When I used the vulgarity it was NOT directed at anyone of the participants in this discussion. Just in case anyone should be feeling sensitive or anything. I appreciate ALL of your input.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), April 08, 2000.

I see I made an error of explanation--REPHRASE--Refuse to purchase insurance ! There, now that is not theft --it is personal choice or boycott. I pay porperty tax and state sales tax but I never pay federal taxes. I purposely stop earning at the 7,500 level. That is quite easy to do as a farmer and legal also. I make it my goal in life to not pay for injustice ! I won't be their "enabler" If half the people in the country followed my example the politicians and HMO's would be out of business for next election. Some would say that is not doing anything, but it is what I am doing. Like Thoreau said " If one man stands and resists change than the change is incomplete and he is the victor. I never had a desire to be rich, I got what I want and I'm happiest stuffing their own laws back down their throat and starving the $%#@* out !!! Joel Rosen

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 09, 2000.

I want Joel to clarify his statement "They have to give us urgent care and they don't have enough jails to hold us." Who HAS to give us anything? And if you want less gov't. interference, you have to take responsibility for negotiating your own care, ie. usually paying for it some way.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch01@hotmail.com), April 09, 2000.

Ok--I will clarify--Hills-Burton law says " anyone needing medical attention--shall be givin that attention regardless of their ability to pay for services rendered" I myself have my own medical staff and after a few trips to Mexico and my wife's flight bag--I need nothing from any hospital or pharmacy. The American penal system is overloaded to the gills! Federal pens have 5 acreas of men sleeping in tents, outside the walls. The militia membership list exceed the total armed services of the United States. Now,--if the 30 million non-taxpayers that Clinton has vowed to jail come into play--where are they going to put us? and if the militia's join together and help them---than what? What did Clinton and Congress see when they signed the bill to let U.N. forces enter our country in case of civil war? I did not start this fire---it was therewhen I layed down on it !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 09, 2000.

Hospitals which recieve funding of any sort from the Federal government (and, yes - I know I'm talking my tax dollars, and yours) are required by law to provide urgent care regardless of the patient's ability to pay, or insurance coverage or lack thereof. Way back in the early '80's, I had a miscarriage. No insurance, as hubby had been laid off from his job for almost a year and the part time or short term jobs we could find sure didn't have ANY benefits - let alone insurance. (Do you remember the recession of the early '80's?) I was provided excellent care, the same as any other patient (at the hospital that I am now employed at), and when discharged, I tried to negotiate to pay my bill at $10/mo. until we could get on our feet. They declined and told me about this program. They couldn't understand why I cried (I had never taken charity before). I have absolutly NO PROBLEM with my tax dollars being used to support this kind of a program - what I have a problem with are people who abuse it. I don't believe that Joel and his family fall into that catagory. Urgent care to me, and to other people does not = the same thing. I think heart attack, MVA, broken limb, etc... I see too darn many kids with earaches and URI's in the ER - either because their families can't afford insurance, or because they can't find an MD who will accept their medical card. I don't mind footing the bill for those either, although they aren't really urgent, by my definition - because it may be the only way those kids will receive the medical care they need. What pisses me off are the kind of people who are too lazy to get off their butts and get a job (again, not Joel, as he both farms and has a part time town job), yet come in with phantom back pain, etc... and expect me to take time away from patients who are really ill to go play waitress and fetch them a coke. And then they stay up all night watching TV, and sleep all day - funny how they can't get along 3 hours without a pain shot while they are awake, but they can go 8 or more hours once they fall asleep... Something else that annoys me is having to go to the MD to get an excuse to miss work. Now, mind you, I am an RN - I'm responsible for assessing and providing care for 8 to 12 people nightly, and I am supposed to monitor these patients and decide if any change in their condition warrents contacting the MD or other change in their care. Temp increased? Infection present? Do I leave them in with their room-mate, or move them to another room? Etc... Yet, I have to have a note from an MD (which means an hour wait, wasting my time and theirs - not to mention my $15 co-pay), so I go in and say to the MD " I have an upper respiratory infection, I am coughing, I am febrile, I am producing copious quantities of thick yellow sputum, I am infectious and I do not think I should be providing care for sick people for a couple of days - No, I do not have strep - I just have a common cold, darn it!" - because administration does not think I have sense enough to know when I have a cold. Yes, I know, there are a lot of people out there who would call in for no reason - it just irks me. I'm glad that I have health insurance - but I'd sure like to see a different system than the one that we have now.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), April 09, 2000.

Yes--I remember the 1980's--you couldn't buy a job(Ford was president and chevy's out-sold any vehicle made). Your right Tigger ! You sound like most of my breakfast conversations with my wife ! That suicide manual idea--I heard that one before,or here is your drug list for tonight--why not try them all--Good Night, Sweet Prince !--Thank God and Demerol, he is gone. Before the y2k ordeal--my wife and I took a trip to Mexico---net result--was she bought--Biaxon--ampycillion--ampytriprylene and buss-barr. These are all legal to bring back into the usa. In her flight bag are demerol,dilaudid.morphine and something that speeds up the reaction time of morphine(can't remember the name) Along with a complete surgical set of clips, clamps and hoses. Rn-Bsn EPRT That is my doctor--no charge ! When comfronted--I wear kevlar--so shoot me high or low ! I have no need of the medical field as the regular public does but I admire tigger and understand her life thru my wife's conversations. I feel proud to be 48 and worked hard and never hurt my back--6 sholder surgeries --1knee---and 2 compound fractures. I need a full time nurse and doctor but I have never ask for ssi or welfare and most days,except cold,rainy days) I can function with the best of them.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 09, 2000.

6 sholder surgeries, 1 knee and 2 compound fractures. And this was all preformed with your own surgical kit. Perhaps the fractures do explain the rantings, fractures of the head? Do you honestly believe that you will be able to preform major surgery with your list here? Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 10, 2000.

Whew! This topic has really got people going -- and no wonder, as is is hard to be sick or hurt and harder to see someone you love in that condition. First off, I have a great deal of respect for nurses and nurses aides. I know several, and they are dedicated and really care about their patients, though frustrated with some of the changes taking place in the medical system. (Just to throw a new highly charged topic in -- one of my friends has told us about a nurse in the hospital where she works who she's seen several times practicing rayka (spelling not right, I know) on unconsious patients who hadn't given consent -- this is a New Age technique that is almost a form of witchcraft, and is being promoted in the wellness-centers in our area, and the nurses are all getting into it. I certainly would be VERY unhappy to hear that someone had practiced it on me when I was unconsious!). As to the rest, competence is certainly an issue. Our youngest daughter, now twenty, is autistic, but even though she was seeing specialists in disabled children from the time she was a few months old, she wasn't diagnosed until she was almost six. And now we are finding out that most autistic children have celiac disease, which in some cases causes their disability, and in many cases contributes to it -- Juniper had most of the symptoms of celiac disease when she was little, and I brought those symptoms to the attention of several doctors and other professionals, (though I didn't know what they meant), but no one caught it. So she was continuing to eat foods she shouldn't have been, which cause damage to the lining of the intestine, with resulting malabsorption of nutrients and permanent brain damage. Didn't find out until after my mother found out she had celiac disease, and then I found out I have it, too. And my doctor, though I like and respect her, still doesn't know as much about either autism or celiac disease as I do! Juniper is now getting medicaid, not because I want it, but because her father's medical insurance doesn't include very good dental coverage, and she's almost old enough that it won't cover her at all unless he pays a bunch extra for it. About antibiotics, it doesn't matter if you use them or not. We hardly ever have used antibiotics, but a couple of years ago, Juniper and I both had ear infections that were antibiotic resistant -- the germs travel, and carry their resistance with them. Since we haven't been at school (I was a volunteer teacher's aide at the school at our church for five years, home- schooled before that), we've hardly been sick at all, which may be a good reason for people with children to consider home-schooling. The germs get passed aroung something awful, even in a small school like ours. So you could call home-schooling a preventive medicine lifestyle choice!!

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 12, 2000.

I sent this once, partially completed, by accident -- forgive me. Whew! This topic has really got people going -- and no wonder, as it is hard to be sick or hurt and harder to see someone you love in that condition. First off, I have a great deal of respect for nurses and nurses aides. I know several, and they are dedicated and really care about their patients, though frustrated with some of the changes taking place in the medical system. (Just to throw a new highly charged topic in -- one of my friends has told us about a nurse in the hospital where she works who she's seen several times practicing reika (spelling not right, I think) on unconsious patients who hadn't given consent -- this is a New Age technique that is almost a form of witchcraft, and is being promoted in the wellness-centers in our area, and the nurses are all getting into it. I certainly would be VERY unhappy to hear that someone had practiced it on me when I was unconsious!).

As to the rest, competence is certainly an issue. Our youngest daughter, now twenty, is autistic, but even though she was seeing specialists in disabled children from the time she was a few months old, she wasn't diagnosed until she was almost six. And now we are finding out that most autistic children have celiac disease, which in some cases causes their disability, and in many cases contributes to it -- Juniper had most of the symptoms of celiac disease when she was little, and I brought those symptoms to the attention of several doctors and other professionals, (though I didn't know what they meant), but no one caught it. So she was continuing to eat foods she shouldn't have been, which cause damage to the lining of the intestine, with resulting malabsorption of nutrients and permanent brain damage. Didn't find out until after my mother found out she had celiac disease, and then I found out I have it, too. And my doctor, though I like and respect her, still doesn't know as much about either autism or celiac disease as I do! Juniper is now getting medicaid, not because I want it, but because her father's medical insurance doesn't include very good dental coverage, and she's almost old enough that it won't cover her at all unless he pays a bunch extra for it.

About antibiotics, it doesn't matter if YOU use them or not. We hardly ever have used antibiotics, but a couple of years ago, Juniper and I both had ear infections that were antibiotic resistant -- the germs travel, and carry their resistance with them. Since we haven't been at school (I was a volunteer teacher's aide at the school at our church for five years, we home-schooled before that), we've hardly been sick at all, which may be a good reason for people with children to consider home-schooling. The germs get passed aroung something awful, even in a small school like ours. So you could call home- schooling a preventive medicine lifestyle choice!!

About dentists, when our oldest daughter was about eight or nine, she was having toothaches so we took her to a dentist (for the first time -- Greg was in the Air Force for ten years, and dental care for military dependents was practically nonexistent). The dentist said she needed a root canal, and had us come in three times for X-rays, each time saying he would start work the next time! Oh, and it was going to cost about $3000 -- this was fifteen years ago, so maybe it would be double that now. Anyway, we finally caught on, and stopped going -- were afraid to look for another dentist in that area. The next year we moved to Tok, Alaska, where my dad and brothers live; it is about an eight hour drive to Whitehorse, Canada, and a lot of people would go to Whitehorse for the dentist or to se a doctor, so we took the girls down there (it was quite a trip, but I won't go into that here!). The dentist was very good, told us Cedar did NOT need a root canal, fixed her problems, saw all three girls, and the whole trip including two nights in a motel cost us less than one visit to the first dentist in the states! I'm not in favor of socialized medicine -- or socialized anything -- but that was a very positive experience.

The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil, and you can see, looking around you, that it is true. And the system does need to be changed. But the only way to get change that is permanent and better than what we've got now is for people's hearts to change. We are born with the tendency to sin, with the desire to sin (how many times have you had to teach a baby or a small child to do wrong? It comes naturally!). We can't overcome that ourselves, we need Jesus Christ. I know people don't like to be preached to, and want to change things themselves -- all of modern life seems to be an emphasis on SELF. Self-will, self-improvement, independence, rebellion, disobedience (obedience has become a dirty word), defiance -- look where these things have got us! And it isn't going to get better. The plain fact is that if people refuse to govern themselves (and I'm talking about self-control here, not politics), then they will -- and must -- be governed by others. The less self- control there is, the more outside control there will be. A people totally lacking in self-control are going to shortly find themselves under a totalitarian government, and don't you think that's the trend even in the United States? So the people who say we need to stop going to doctor for every little thing are right. And also it is foolish to try to live forever -- I'm looking forward to eternity with my Lord and Savior! Suicide and euthanasia (for human beings) are wrong, but it is also wrong to try to keep people alive far beyond their time to go.

We didn't have insurance for several years, and I know my doctor wouldn't order tests for me that we couldn't pay for. Perhaps I didn't need them -- I'm still alive! -- but might have discovered the celiac disease sooner, and relieved some pain. She still won't order tests that the insurance won't cover, partly to spare us, but partly because she might not get paid. My preference would be to have a medical savings acount, with catastrophic coverage for anything really major, like a serious car accident or a heart attack. But the VA hospital where my husband works doesn't offer that option. In the future we may be without insurance again, as I hope we'll sell this house (which we can't afford to either keep or fix) and start over without all the financial bondage -- do like Joel, and live on less than will be taxed. Though I object to property taxes, as they mostly go to support public schools, which are NOT GOOD. So I guess I've got my two cents in, and hope that maybe a few people will think of eternity (we will all get there someday, after all), and about depending on the Lord now, here in this life. (You should see what the Bible says about doctors!!)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 12, 2000.

By the way, there's a web site that has the whole Merck manual on it, for those of you who are into self-doctoring -- or, as I do, try to make sure we really NEED to go to the doctor, before we call for an appointment. It's at the On-Line Books Page, along with a lot of other neat books. ( And some that aren't worth looking at, of course!)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 12, 2000.

I really appreciate what you wrote. Also have you seen what the Bible says about eating? If people follow the food laws of the Old Testament, they wouldn't need doctor near as often.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), April 12, 2000.