We attend religious meetings in Clay Center, KS, which is probably not very different from any small town in the U.S. From time to time the question of "proper" dress comes up. Our leaders advise us to dress in a way that's generally accepted in the community unless there's a Biblical reason not to. So I'm trying to determine what is generally accepted church attire in small-town U.S.A. Specifically: Must men wear ties? Are blue jeans OK? Sneakers? Athletic shoes? May women wear trousers?

Also, grooming sometimes becomes an issue. Is it OK for men to wear beards?

Do people in your church ever disagree on these questions?

Faith

-- Faith Battels (hray@kansas.net), April 15, 2000

Answers

Faith, it's going to depend entirely on what kind of church you are going to, and what their standards are. We all ought to dress according to God's standards, of course -- modestly, not calling attention to ourselves, nor being extravagant. But beyond that -- in the church we used to go to in a small town in Alaska, some folks wore suit and tie or a dress (according to gender), others wore blue jeans or Carhartts overalls. Probably most were in the latter category. Here, our church is in a small town, but more "urban", and our men wear suits for Sunday morning; slacks and a dress shirt, perhaps a sweater, for Sunday evening and Wednesday evening. Women wear dresses for all three, but more casual ones for the two evening services. But if someone comes to visit in ragged jeans or a tight mini-skirt, we don't make them feel uncomfortable. They are hearing God's word, and if He changes their heart about what they ought to wear, that's fine. It's not for us to do. As for beards, again, that has to be up to the individual. I know that our church leadership would discourage a beard on someone who was wanting to participate in the ministry, for example teaching Sunday school. They feel, and they may be right, that a beard often indicates a rebellious attitude, and if you have been studying the Bible, you probably have learned that rebellion is one of the things God hates. I don't know if there is anything specific about beards in the Bible, though -- I think most men still wore a beard back then. Non- Christians may think this whole discussion is foolish, but if someone truly loves God, they will want with all their heart to do what's pleasing to Him in all areas of their life, including dress, so it's not a foolish question at all.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 15, 2000.

OK--I know I am just a sin boldly and ask forgiveness later lutheran, but we wear what we have on when the bells start ringing. I disagree with anything to do with facial hair on men(or women). I might be reading a different translation of the bible but the one I read has Jesus as the greatest rebel ever!! Long hair, beard, sandels and he never hesitated to stick it to the church upper-archy. He is also the favorite inspiration for the greatest rebels in history--Martin Luther--Thoreau--The Founding Fathers--Martin Luther King Jr. and even Ghandi studied the life of Jesus. I guess the moral of the whole story is--if you get thrown out of church, Don't fret it, God wasn't at that church anyway !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

One of the reasons that I do not attend church. Though to your face folks will say come as you are, there is an awful lot of whispering going on instead of teaching if I do show up in my Jeans. You are to not be a stumbling block to others, and its just eaiser to study at home than to get into the, trying to outdress, heels, makeup, jewlery, same colored dresses for chior, Easter dresses, etc....Money better spent on feed, showing, and a really good Stong's Concordance!

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 15, 2000.

Ya'll mark this day down on your calenders--The day Joel and Vickii agreed on something ! It may never happen again.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

I think that if we'd all take our eyes off of each other and ourselves, and focus on pleasing the Lord we wouldn't be having this discussion! Jean

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), April 15, 2000.

That would be nice -Jean but that is not the modern church. In today's church the gossip outlasts the message, the fashion show exceeds the prayer time and the bingo parlor is open 24 hours,7 days a week. Not to mention the place is a restuarant where the food cost more than a 5 Star Hotel--all in the name of building God that indoor pool. I always fiqured God didn't want a pool since he walked on the water.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

Henry David Thoreau said "Beware of any enterprise that requires new clothes." You take it from there. Wear what you like and is appropriate to the occassion. Maybe you'll be a trendsetter or a pariah---depends on the congregation.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 15, 2000.

That is one of the reasons I hate attending Easter service! All the women have on new dresses. Well, I'm just about 47 yrs. old, widowed and have my own opinion. The way I figured thru all these yrs. and finally accepted for myself is - "The Lord looks at the heart". If some snooty person is gonna think I'm not good enough cause of the clothes I wear, then that person had better examine their own heart. I can go into church with a dress, nylons and the whole shabang but have the worst attitude around but if no one picks up on it, I "fit in" just fine! I quit wearing my Sunday mask, made me feel hypotical! I have come to realize after a while that once the people of the church get to know me for who I am instead of what I wear- then they can accept me, just as I have to accept them. I do agree on dressing respectfully - thing shabby, sexy, too short, etc. - hair (whether on your head or face) should be well groomed. Take it to the Lord in prayer - let Him be your conscience!

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), April 15, 2000.

The nylons I wore the day I got married just got a run in them the other Sunday, and I've been married over 10 years, so that tells you how many times I've worn a dress to church. I go just about every Sunday and my husband is an usher there, and we both wear jeans. Some folks really dress up, but even the pastor doesn't wear a suit, and no one has ever commented on our dress. Every so often someone on the staff will start growing a beard or goatee, even the pastor and worship leader, so apparently they think its not an issue. I wouldn't go to a church where what you were wearing was an issue. The only comment I've heard was from a friend who noticed I wasnt wearing my normal hiking boots but instead my new cowboy boots, and it was a compliment!

-- Julie (juliecapasso@aol.com), April 15, 2000.

The whole church scene is an issue in itself,I'd rather meet in someone's home and have a more informal,and friendly, service. Why do people dress up so much at church anyways? If they are there to please God, it shouldn't matter what they're wearing, as long as it's not revealing and immodest enough to cause temptation. The whole thing seems so hypocritical to me sometimes. Why in the world would a beard seem rebellious? Having a clean shaven face is a pagan roman custom, not a biblical one! Guess Jesus wouldn't be welcome in a church like that! I would rather meet with a bunch of hairy hippies, who are really trying to live the right way, than to gather with a bunch of people who are mentally critiqueing everybody else's appearance. Anyway,I have been going to church, as we haven't worked out a home worship group yet,and when I go, most of my clothes have come from the 10 cent sale at the thrift store. And, get lots of compliments on those clothes! My boys wear blue jeans,I try to pick out the darker blue ones that don't have holes in the knees, and flannel shirts that are not too worn. They wear sneakers, I try to use black sneakers because they are inconspicous and match everything. They can also be blacked if they get dusty, but hardly show dirt most of the time. If a man was wearing an ironed dress shirt with the jeans, he could probably wear an informal tie,too.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), April 15, 2000.

I grew up wearing a dress, hat and GLOVES to church..ha ha ha...My personal theory is that in our culture, folks get "dressed up" for special occasions, so formal worship of God is a special occasion and you wear your best,WHATEVER THAT MAY BE...perhaps your best is jeans and a sweatshirt, perhaps you are fortunate enough to have "nice" clothes...whatever....I would not attend any "church" whose members judged folks by what they wore...that just ain't Christian at all (I'm practicing my Southern accent here)....we have folks in mini skirts with teased hair so high you have to peek around them..we have folks with dresses so long and plain you'd think they came in a buggy..nobody raises an eyebrow and I like that.We are all there to worship God as a family, not to keep score cards on each other.Beards??????? My husband has a beard that allows him to play Santa without props..our ministers have beards...so what????? If I were you, I'd either find a different church or start one in my home rather than hang out with folks who are trying out for starring roles in "The Crucible"....

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), April 15, 2000.

Boy, I'm glad my church isn't like the ones some of you folks describe! We are all there because we love our Lord and Savior, and He said He wants us to go to church. We aren't dressing up to "look good", and we aren't whispering behind people's backs, either, no matter what they wear. As far as Jesus wearing long hair, a beard, and etc., if you look carefully you'll find there is no mention of him having long hair. That idea came from old pictures people used to paint. He did have a beard, we know because it got plucked out just before he was crucified. And we expect he probably wore sandals because most people did at that time. But he wasn't a rebel. Read the gospels and see how many times it says that he obeyed His Father. That is not the attitude of a rebel. Get your Strong's out and look up rebellion, and see what God has to say about that throughout the Bible. Jesus never sinned, not even in thought, and rebellion is definitely a sin. And since He is who He is, those religious leaders should have been bowing down and worshipping Him -- instead, they were in rebellion against Him, not the other way around. People still seem to think of Jesus Christ as if He was an insurrectionist, trying to throw down the government, and got killed against His will and His plan, but that's not so. He came to die on the cross to pay for our sins (and that includes mine, and yours) and was obedient unto death. I do agree with Joel, that if a church throws you out because of what you are wearing, then God is not likely to be present in that church. People who truly love God, love the people who love Him, and don't hurt them like that. I think the root cause of the problems so many of you mention is that most churches nowadays are social clubs, and far too many people who call themselves by the name of Jesus Christ don't really, with all their hearts, believe in Him and in His word. If they did, they couldn't do the things you all are mentioning. I have to add, I've never been in a church that was that bad, though I have heard about them before. I had been hoping someone on this forum could help us find another church as good as the one I'm going to now, in a less- expensive area of the country, but from the sounds of things, there may not be any more like it. That's sad.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 15, 2000.

I am a PK(preachers kid)--my father became a Lutheran minister after developing the minute gun for General Electric--so I feel like I am an expert on the failings of the church. Preachers say " love the sinner, not the sin. In this world of egos, attitudes,attributes and opinions--that may well be our greatest challenge. We can put men on the moon but we can't stand the guy next to us. We grow enough food in our country to feed each person in the world 7 times a day but still some starve.Churches have huge bank accounts and multiple property holdings and no taxes. I'll get butchered for this but the church should own NOTHING ! Do not leave the church anything in your will ! The churches job is to comfort the sick and dejected and preach salvation. They don't need a building,choir,or a 8 foot gold replica of a man they think --looked liked that. If you are so inclined to follow the most important thing Jesus said--than sell everything you own and give it to the poor. I can't do it--you can't do it and he knew you couldn't do it either. Wear what you would like, strive to be good to others, and forgive us when we fail. That is all anyone can expect from us.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 15, 2000.

Oh boy this is a good topic! We have two worship services on Sunday at my TINY church...the a.m. one is great...I love to go, and am looking forward to Holy Week. However, the more traditional folk go to this one, and while a lot of folk wear jeans and more casual clothes, the people who are actually more *comfortable* in dressier wear attend in the morning. It's what *they* feel shows respect. That's fine by me. This service has the usual Gloria Patri, Communion, offering plate, hymns,etc. The evening one which I prefer to go to, although I participate a lot in the a.m. one as well sometimes, is more spiritual to me...lots of candles, singing, chanting: it's a Taize service. We are a contemporary lot, but like to get closer to the H. Spirit this way.

We accept everyone and could care less about hair, clothes, income etc. Our congregation consists of very conservative to very liberal people and because of our love of J. Christ, we have a very broad common ground. This is the place where I have met my doctor friends, other professionals, etc., who I would never have met in the usual social settings. We are just plain old mainstream Protestants.

May peace be with you this next Holy Week, and always.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 15, 2000.

Joel, we are closer on this topic than any other one yet!!! I agree about it being impossible, but you are right on.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 15, 2000.

What was the original question again? Oh yeah, what is acceptable. Well, I'm a PK too and a minister myself, and someone above was right about it depends on what kind of church in what part of the country. But our church in eastern Kansas is pretty relaxed. Men come in jeans, suits and anything in between. Women come in dresses, slacks and sometimes jeans. All wear diffent kinds of shoes from boots, dress shoes and sneakers. We have men serving at the communion table in suits, sweaters & slacks, and shirts and jeans. Ties are not necessary though some like them. I hate them myself! I think as long as it is clean, and not indecent (revealing) it is OK. Facial hair is a personal decision not related to matters of the heart. Someone mentioned above dressing up for a special occasion. Our hang up with clothes comes from our history. Everyone wore there best when visiting in the nobleman's court. One way to show honor is by presenting ourselves in our best. That's why you generally dress up for a wedding. Dressing up for church is presenting ourselves in our best to God. Granted, God doesn't care what we look like on the outside (within reason) but I think it is a gift of our heart to Him that has been misused, as everything else in creation, to sow discord among brothers.

-- Vaughn (vdcjm5@juno.com), April 15, 2000.

I love to read what everybody has to say and I love it that no one gets mad or mean about differing opinions. this whole forum and all you people make me feel part of a friendly community. I am getting to know all of you better as time goes by, and wish we could have a get together to see if my mental picture of you matches the real you(not that it matters). I used to go to church religiously, started at age four. I still try very hard to practice what Jesus preached(don't always do a good job of it). I believe as most of you that it is what is in your heart that counts not what is on your clothes hanger. Or as my mother used to say "it's okay to be poor but not to be dirty" I have never been to a church where everyone agreed on anything but surely there is one or two that do. karen

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

We are members a Pentecostal church, and we have standards for dress of our members...laies don't cut their hair, and wear skirts and dresses, guys wear long pants and shirts with sleeves, etc. But, hey, it you show up at our meeting house, we will greet you with open arms no matter WHAT you are wearing. JUst be there to hear the word, and if you feel the need to dress like we do later, then do so. But we WANT visitors, and are praying hard for Revial, and we don't care what you look like. Just come!

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

Actually Leann this is my choice of church because real learning goes on there, though as time passes you end up with the gals patting your hand saying that when God touches you, you will want to grow your hair long, and wear dresses. The reason I am a home studier, just can't see why even in our small community there are 2 baptist churces within a good walk from my house. They have bigger and bigger buildings, newer and newer vans, and still there are homes in our communities with peeling paint, that their teen members could eaisly paint on a weekend instead of going to Astro World, or giving their tithes to other countries, when this community has no food banks or clothes closets for the needy. I laugh when I hear folks talking about the government should do away with Welfare and let the churches handle the poor, Ha! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 16, 2000.

My husband has a music ministry. He sings in all denominations. Sometimes we dress up other times we don't. If we know the church has a dress code, we dress according to that out of respect for their beliefs. We've been asked back to most churches. We also consider the occasion of the service. We have been in churches where people wear shorts on Sunday mornings. God judges your heart, he knows your motives. The condition of you soul is what's important not your clothes. Another good place to use common sense.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony@yahoo.com), April 16, 2000.

Just a comment on obeying. Being obediant to God the father could very well make you a rebel in the eyes of society.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), April 16, 2000.

I have watched this thread with interest. I wear only dresses and not just at church. Once in a while I put on a pair of pants at home. I have been to churches where the christian women felt that wearing pants was immodest. I think there are times wearing a dress is more immodest. I think each Christian should examine God's word and do what they feel God is leading them to do. I don't think most people in the churches I've been to are concerned about having a fashion show. I think most of them are concerned about giving their best to the Lord. Some women have genuinely felt that when it says in the old testament that a woman shouldn't dress like a man that they needed to dress differently. A dress is a traditional womans attire, therefore that is how they attire themselves. As I said this is a personal thing. I don't where dresses for any of these reasons. I wear them as a political statement, and that's all I'd better say regarding that cause I'm bound to get in trouble, LOL.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), April 16, 2000.

You sure got a lot of replies to your question! My opinion doesn't exactly match the question, but I thought I'd toss it in anyway. (Sorry, just got distracted, a deer is out eating next to the garden (it's about 10 pm), I hollered loudly several times for it to leave, but all it did was look up for a second and then go back to eating. Durned critters!) Walking outside at any time of day or night, I'm in God's country, far more awe inspiring than anything man can build. For me, I'm in 'church' 24 hours a day. A man-made building doesn't hold any special meaning for me, definately not enough to put on an insincere monkey suit!

Work clothes Larry

-- Larry (sesquiq@mail.com), April 16, 2000.

Larry's comment, about being in church 24 hours a day, reminded me of something one of my neighbors said to me."You must be very religious." Me: "Why do you say that?" "Because everytime I see you outside, you're on your knees." We both laughed!

I believe that what we wear to church, or anyplace else, is not nearly as important as how we BEHAVE to one another, inside church or out. That includes our earth and ALL living things. Paulette

-- paulette mark (kiwi333@ipa.net), April 17, 2000.

Unfortunately, like anything else, there are good churches and bad churches. I recently left a church that seemed more like a social club to me and have found a little country church that seems very sincere and not at all concerned with what you wear. That, I think, should be between you and the Lord. However, I think what you wear should be clean and modest. Women should not wear short or revealing dresses and I think pants, if not too tight are ok. There are different styles of chuurches, some formal and some less formal. We need to find what suits us best. And remember, no church is perfect because it is made up of imperfect people. Church is a hospital for sinners. Vicki, I encourage you to try to find a church you can be happy in. I was beginning to think like you, but the Lord revealed to me that we need to become involved in a church family to help one another and learn from each other. Sure, we can read the Bible and Strong's concordance at home but I believe God meant for us to have the fellowship of other christians. By the way, I am not getting a new dress for Easter. I believe this whole issue each one should pray about to see what God wants for YOU.

-- barbara (barbaraj@mis.net), April 17, 2000.

I know my comment above sounds idealistic, but isn't it true that any change can begin with you? I won't preach, but the Bible does give instructions regarding fellowship with other believers! Finally, the advice my beloved mother-in-law gives me when I whine & complain - there is no perfect church! My two cents worth. I think you are all wonderful people and I love this forum. Jean

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), April 17, 2000.

After seeing some more responses, I'm beginning to be a little more encouraged about the state of God's true church in this country! Some of the earlier responses were pretty cynical. Joel, our pastor's father (who is also our deacon and Sunday school teacher), tells of his experience with the Lutheran church. He'd been raised Lutheran, and while he was away in the Navy, he accepted Jesus Christ as his savior and started to study the Bible. When he came home, he went to the Lutheran minister of the church where he'd grown up and told him about his new relationship with the Lord. You know what the Lutheran minister told him? "If you think like that, you aren't welcome here." So if all your experience with church has been Lutheran, maybe you ought to check some of the others out before you condemn all of them.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 17, 2000.

Let's see, we are Catholic, inlaws are church of christ, brother is Nazarene, best friend is Church of the Brethen. We all wear pants. We are in a small east Ks town. But many friends are in the city, they wear pants. Be mindful of modesty, you are in God's house, you dedicated it to him. But farmers don't always have time or money to dress up. If your jeans are clean, (or maybe you delivered a lamb 30 minutes ago)don't worry. I learned a long time ago that you aren't there to worry about what everyone has on, how they dress or how they live away from church. The bible says gather together often. I will say that my husband asked me recently to start covering my head in church, and I will because he asked, and I won't worry about the fact that NO ONE in our church does anymore. I will slither in the back and keep my head down, don't think badly of me. I will tell you that I had an aunt who thought it was a sin for a woman to wear pants and cut her hair. My foster son and his family are German Baptist and dress like Amish. He has long beard and black hat, I took his wife to Walmart when they visited and someone asked me if she was a nun. Don't worry about everyone else or their ideas. You just go to church and love the Lord. I go everyday and during the week I wear jeans and a t-shirt. And next week, when my mantilla arrives in the mail, will wear it right along.

-- Susie (goodartfarm@msn.com), April 17, 2000.

This is one of the many reasons I admire the Amish. They don't worry about petty clothing issues, they worship in homes so their money isn't wasted on maintenance of expensive architecture. They take care of their own needs without government intervention. We should all live like that.

-- Sandy Davis (smd2@netzero.com), April 17, 2000.

Kathleen,

You wrote: >>You know what the Lutheran minister told him? "If you think like that, you aren't welcome here." So if all your experience with church has been Lutheran, maybe you ought to check some of the others out before you condemn all of them.<<

By that did you mean: Check out some of the others (Other Lutheran churches in the area?) Or did you mean check out some of the other denominations? B/c as far as I can logic out, his experience was with just with ONE specific Lutheran pastor, who sounds like he was having a bad day/life!

I'm not Lutheran, BTW, but I know every denomination has one or two pastors who have their own strong personal versions of their faiths, and not always representative of it. Just thinking...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 17, 2000.

That's true, sheepish, I thought of it after I posted the message. But the thing is, whatever denomination, people seem to be judging church by the people involved instead of keeping their eyes on Jesus Christ, and His Word in their hearts. I guess my point was that if his experience had only been with one group (whatever that might be) and he wasn't happy with it, that he ought to check out some of the other ones.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 17, 2000.

We go to "the" church in a small town in E. Texas. I am probably the closest thing to a rebel in the church as I have a ponytail, moustache, wear nothing but bluejeans, used to have a beard (can't cuz of work), and used to ride a Harley (sold when laid off). Oh yeah, worst of all I am a Yankee married to a non-local Texan (wife is from N. Texas). But I have taught an adult Sunday School class, now teach 7-8 grade boys, and run the sound system. Most people don't care what you wear once they find you are genuine. But there will always be those who will look askance at you if you are at all different. Jesus called these type of folks several things, all intended to point out that they were not following God. So you gotta decide whether you can deal with them and be able to worship in any given church. And we are supposed to worship together, not try it as "Lone Rangers". It ain't easy, but then, God is worth it!

-- Skip Barnes (pococj@aol.com), April 17, 2000.

Susie, I am also Catholic and also wear a mantilla; however, in my case, most of the other women and girls do as well. The Mass I attend is a traditional Latin one. The reason we cover our heads is simply as a sign of modesty and humility before God. In the same manner, men do not wear hats in church. The Latin Mass community we belong to is made up mainly of country folks like ourselves, and though most of the women wear dresses, they are not usually fancy, they are more than likely homemade, or at best bought at WalMart. (I'm not a great seamstress--most of my clothes are bought at rummage sales!) No one ever criticizes my husband for wearing his jeans, albeit, his "good" jeans. Several of the others wear jeans as well. The key is modesty, as several of the others have mentioned. If you are going to a place of worship, especially for a Catholic who believes that our Lord is actually present body and blood, soul and divinity on the altar, it is very inappropriate to wear morally objectionable clothing. At the same time, it's important to remember that church is not a fashion show, and we need to be focused on what's taking place, not what our neighbor is wearing. Sandy, please don't "slink" into the back of church. You have your reasons for wearing the mantilla. Remember you are there to worship the Lord, as everyone else should be too. Maybe you should talk to your husband about why he wants you to cover your head, together you could explore the history of the Church, then you could explain to inquisitive others why you wear the mantilla, and maybe they'll start wearing them too!--Okay, sermon's over!! That's my nickel's worth.

-- Laurie (SUPERGS63@AOL.COM), April 17, 2000.

Laurie, I am on a homeschool line called keeping it catholic. I homeschool our last one who is ADHD with related problems and public school just couldn't deal with him and the local parochial didn't want to. There was recently a big discussion on mantillas. I think he was reading this. Take my word for it, I have no problem with it at all. He takes the church very seriously and I was so happy he was taking time to look at this board, he is about the busiest man I know, and he does nothing lightly. I know when we go to catholic homeschool workshops a lot of the moms cover their head during mass. My aunt still covers her head. Our small parish is very close knit, and the slinking was a joke. But we do have a slightly liberal priest now and I am going to watch his eyes. I wear a dress usually on Sunday but honestly, one of the reasons is its the only time I get to dress up. But our family is so diversified in religion, and I find it comforting that not one of the different denominations seem to have a "what are they wearing"attitude. Our Jon and his family dress that way every day so it's nothing special. Of course we are all modest, no sleeveless blouses, low-cut vamping as my girls say. I do feel strongly that we should be in church on Sunday. I know it doesn't apply to everyone, but a few friends I have say they don't have to go to church to worship, and for them, it doesn't work too well. They sleep most of the day on Sunday or go to the ball game, I have never seen a bible in their homes and they are obviously not at ease when we have a simple prayer before and after meals. For these few, it would be better if they were in a place of worship. Don't you think the act of getting there in anticipation, the act of getting up, getting ready, going this extra little is also part of the worship? I mean it takes a commitment to do this. And it makes every step of this preparation special. I am not good with expressing myself, why I usually don't participate. But almost every morning of the week, we get up, get dressed, drive to town and participate in Mass. And it makes our day. The days we miss, there have been several lately since I had 3 discs replaced in my neck I have had a few days I couldn't drive, seem to be missing something. I have a few friends who think we overdo church, but they aren't catholic and don't have the same idea of what Mass really is for us. It's ok. We have a water font by the back door, alter in the dining room , Holy Mother in the front yard and Sts around the garden so we are reminded constantly. Does your parish have perpetual adoration? I have the 7-8 am on Wed. Husband took Monday evening. My aunt doesn't have one in Al. I must go let the babies into the pasture or I'll be here all day. Susie

-- Susie (goodartfarm@msn.com), April 18, 2000.

Susie, I thought you expressed yourself very well. Please keep posting.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 18, 2000.

Susie, yes, keep posting. It's great to hear from another Catholic, though I love everyone here at the Forum! Unfortunately we don't have perpetual adoration, no regular priest here, we are what is called a "missionary" parish. If we had it, I would be there. We only have Mass at the one location once a month, the other three weeks we are going to other locations.

On the clothing issue, I didn't mean any disrespect--I hope none was taken. I just didn't have all the facts about your situation. Liked the part about the only time being able to dress up--same here! Some women can wear dresses and do just about anything, I know my Grandma did, but I find it easier and more comfortable to plant my garden wearing pants!

This has been quite an interesting thread......and we can all still get along. The people in this forum, regardless of religion, are some of the highest caliber people I've come across. You are all great! The Catholic Church could use more people like you! 8-)

-- Laurie (SUPERGS63@AOL.COM), April 18, 2000.

This reminds me of why I quit going to church when I was 17. Church should be about who we are as souls not what we wear or how long our hair is. It is what is inside the heart that matters not what's on the outside. Although I left because one of the lay preachers was in my carpool and when he saw the marines (African-American) at the guard post on the shipyard where we worked, he would go off the deep end about those "N's". This was in New Hampshire where you rarely saw black people. I couldn't have that man preach to me on Sunday about the way I should be living. I stayed away from churches for most of my adult life, but about four years ago I joined a group that gets together every Tuesday evening to talk about Spiritual beliefs. We discuss many things on what we believe and how we should live our lives and there are differing viewpoints and no one is berated for what they speak up about and we all learn from each other. There is no right or wrong answer or belief. We just throw out ideas for everyone to think about and decide how they feel about it. It is a very loving environment and we help each other sort out what we believe. I wish churches were like that. And maybe there are some that are but most of them have a dogma you have to believe, or else, and I believe we all have our own path to God and none of us have to travel the same road. All that matters is that we all get there.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), April 18, 2000.

IMHO one should dress as one would for other important occasions, period. However, reading the responses has reminded me of one of the root causes of our ineffectual churchs...that is, they are full of the non-saved...the Bible tells of thousands being saved AND then added to the church...when it is the other way around, the pastors pull their punches in sermons, crummy / non-biblical music is introduced instead of hymns. Church is a family experience? then why do they pull the kids & parents apart?? If I wanted peer indocrination with morons, I'd put my kids in government skool! This is why we are looking for a home worship group. I must admit a bias in favor of the Amish lifestyle and dress - they are certainly set apart and not worldly appearing!

-- Guy Winton III (guyiii@home.com), April 18, 2000.

Yeah it is always the men who dream of the Amish style of dress, you get to wear beards, pants and suspenders, not much of a stretch here! Now the gals, little bonets, and a dress to the ankels with full stockings, while I milk, clean barns, deliver babys, keep the fence lines clear, cook in an un-airconditioned, non-electric house. Sounds like a spiritual moment to me!! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 18, 2000.

Seems like everything has been covered, but I thought I might just add something. It is true that we go to God to worship Him only and not seek attention from our clothing, we should wear something respectful. God commands us to be holy as He is holy. Holiness can also be described as pure, and in thinking of pure, one thinks of clean. We should dress appropriatly and neatly as a sign of cleanlyness. I'm not saying that we are to pretend to be perfect, because no one is perfect, no matter how old or young they are, but I am saying that in respect and glory to God, we need to dress modestly, neatly and clean. Although, I do not believe in the old saying 'cleanliness is next to Godliness', I do think that being clean is important. God is pure and holy and as a picture and reflection of Christ's righteousness we should dress modestly and smart, ready to worship God according to and by His Word. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is more important than having a clean heart!! I realise that we go to church to gather with fellow children of God to worhip Him alone, but I think that we should look nice as well. Just don't let it become everything... We often go to weddings in our best clothing out of respect for the bride and groom. How much more should we respect and gloryify God!! All this is very interesting to read! I prefer to wear dresses, but am actually wearing pants as I write. I believe that one should wear dresses as a sign of submittance to God and to their husbands, or fathers in my case, (I'm only 15 years old), but I cannot find enough Scriptural evidence to settle it in my mind. If I were you, Faith, I would wear a dress and if anyone thinks you're off the wall, you can tell them the truth... "...be ready to tell of the hope that is within you" Oh well...I've rambled long enough and probably have repeated myself, so....

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), April 19, 2000.

Out of the mouths of babes? I am truly humbled! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), April 19, 2000.

Interesting thread. I'll share a story, not an opinion. It's June or July 1974, Father Moore is outside the chapel, it's a few minutes after 10am, and the organist is ready to drop, it's hot- and she's been at it for awhile. Several people are peeping out the windows, when a roar of laughter draws us all to the 'playground side' of the chapel! Father Moore is rounding up all of the boys off of the basketball court! Suit jackets, white shirts and trousers are strewn all over, they'd worn there 'Sunday Best' out of the house, with their gym clothes underneath! Father marches the boys in and makes them sit in the front pews-Alter Boys! In church, in Gym clothes! They must have felt naked! He had told them the chapel was closed for repair, they'd have to go to the 'big church' HA! The sermon that day? God doesn't care what you wear, as long as you show up.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), April 19, 2000.

I have enjoyed reading these posts. I really don't get the parts about women wearing archaic clothing,though...that could be dresses (Hey, I like wearing dresses sometimes...don't see it as a prerequisite for church, though), bonnets, whatever. Did Jesus say words about women wearing anything special? I don't honestly recall. I do know that Paul had a few t hings to say about it. I also know that back in his days that it was also acceptable to have slaves. Slaves were supposed to be humble, and accept their position. Just one example of how things were different then vs. now.

When do we get to feel comfortable about living in the 21st century, or do we have to keep subscribing to those old time requirements??? How many of you keep slaves in your houses these days??

Don't flame me. I am as Christian as anyone on here! I just don't get it. It sounds more like keeping people in their places (whether it's by their "personal" choice or not) and that sounds a lot more like politics than religion to me.

I respect your answers, as always. Thanks

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 20, 2000.

The words that Paul wrote down are as much God's Word as the words that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote down -- where most of the quotes of Jesus' actual sayings are. If we can't believe all of it, then none of it is trustworthy. As for the slavery issue, God never intended men to keep their fellows as possessions; that is something instituted by sinful man. But God does want us to obey those in authority over us, even if they are wrong, (as long as they don't want us to do something that is displeasing to God [i.e. murdering unborn babies]). Slavery is not God's best for man, but He allows it sometimes, for His own reasons -- and gets rid of it, also for His own reasons!! The point of the verses you were reading was that Christians are to be a good testimony wherever they are, even if they are slaves. Of course slavery was legal then, so it wasn't going to do them much good to fight it, just like Jesus taught that we are to "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's", because that is the law. There is some correlation between respecting man's laws, and respecting God's laws. Now, as to the dresses issue, the Bible says that women are not to wear men's clothes. God wants to maintain the differentiation between the sexes -- something our society is trying very hard to break down! Many people interpret that as meaning that women ought to wear dresses, although through history, men have often worn what we would call "dresses", also!! Basically, I think it just means that a woman should look like a woman -- if she wants to wear dresses, fine, and if she wants to wear slacks or jeans, fine -- just so you can tell by looking at her that she is a woman!! (Have you noticed how hard that is to do sometimes these days?!?) Now, for church, your dress, if you are serious about your relationship with the Lord, is partly out of respect for the Almighty God who you are there to worship, and partly for a testimony to others, to present a decent, attractive appearance. But it has to be each person's choice -- one thing people forget it that Jesus Christ never forces His way on anyone. It has to come from the convictions of their own heart, hopefully based solidly on the whole counsel of God. I was going to say that this has been way too much discussion of a relatively unimportant issue, but one's dress does reflect the attitudes of the heart, and that is God's primary concern, so I guess it is important to some extent.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), April 20, 2000.

Abigail, you do quite well for only 15, keep up the good work.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony@yahoo.com), April 21, 2000.

Thanks for the encouragment, Vicki and Cindy! I just thought I should point out, Sheepish, (I don't want to start an argument or be picky), that slavery is not wrong. Oppressive slavery is wrong, but Jesus never condemned slavery, in itself. He commanded the masters to be kind and reasonable to their slaves and commanded the slaves to be submissive and obedient. I do believe that it is better that there is no slavery today, because it began to get out of hand in many places. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that, (maybe thats what you meant?). This is so interesting and so much fun to discuss this with you folks; Logic is my favourite school subject!!

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), April 22, 2000.

I like the discussions on this forum, too. But I have to say, when the red flags wave in front of me, I hear the "don't go there" message quite clearly.

My dad always told me not to talk politics or religion and it would do me right. I think I will finally chose to heed his wise counsel.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), April 22, 2000.

Faith - What do you think of all this??

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), April 22, 2000.

Have company from Deep East Texas in town and have been tour-guiding. Having a great time, I must say. Kathleen, I wore my mantilla this week and the only remark made was Marcella, a dear older lady, remarked she could remember when everyone wore them. And I felt really good. You know, adoration is easy to start, I could send info to anyone wanting to do it. But you really dont have to have constant as of course there are areas where for one reason or another folks cant participate. But just going yourself and sitting for an hour in prayer and contemplation is wonderful. I didn't realize everyone didn't have Perpetual until a few months ago. I just thought everyone did! I don't get out a lot you see. I noted a note above about someone's fear of starting a flame. PLEASE don't do that folks. There are so many boards where this happens. I have loved Countryside because everyone can have a different opinion and no one gets mad. I think everyone should go to church at least once a week to worship in the house of God, but others think the building doesn't matter. You know guys, that is fine. Being a good christian doesn't mean what you wear, or what the name on the church door says. (Although I do believe a good Catholic will get there first(Big Grin). God knows our hearts and what anyone else thinks is worth less than 1 cent. But I do enjoy hearing all the views and you never know when someone is lurking and we may have dropped a seed. I respect Joel's feelings as much as I do Kathleen's. Sweet Joel, please do not be offended, and I don't want you to tell me, but I have wondered what made you feel the way you do being a PK. My mind wanders a lot to what may have happened to make some folks dislike the "building" idea. But we, as good christians, also know that flames and the harshness could also keep someone on the brink away from God. This has just been a wonderful chance to hear other ideas and I have enjoyed it so. And before anyone jumps to the conclusion that I am a "holier than thou" I break things when this blasted temper if mine gets out of hand! I tell you, Father Tom must hate to see me coming for confession because the first thing out of my mouth is I am still having a hard time with my temper. I had to add that because my husband will read this and ask why I didn't mention that (that's that for you, babe). See you later kids.

-- Susie*Ks (goodartfarm@msn.com), April 28, 2000.

Just a question on the "women not dressing like men" thing. In Biblical times didn't the men wear "dresses", (i.e. robes)?

-- Peg (NW WI) (wildwoodfarms@hushmail.com), April 28, 2000.

THE FIRST RED FLAG FOR ME WAS THE WORD RELIGIOUS..THAT STINKETH. UNFORTUNATELY THATS WHAT PEOPLE CALL IT AND ITS NOT A RELIGION IT IS CALLED A RELATIONSHIP WITH OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN. HE CREATED US TO WORSHIP AND PRAISE HIM. HE WANTS US TO TALK TO HIM ON EVERYTHING...NOT JUST MAJOR PROBLEMS THE LITTLE ONES TOO. HE ALREADY KNOWS ABOUT THEM ANYWAY, BUT HE WANTS US TO COME TO HIM. THERE IS AN UGLY RELIGIOUS SPIRIT IN THE CHURCHES TODAY THAT ARE NOT SHOWING THE LOVE OF JESUS CHRIST. ITS NOT WHO YOU ARE IN MANS EYES...ITS WHO JESUS IS IN YOU. LET IT SHINE!!! IF YOU THINK THINGS ARE'NT RIGHT IN YOUR CHURCH PRAY FOR IT, DON'T TURN YOUR BACK ON IT. THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS TO LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF AND TO LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, ALL YOUR SOUL, ALL YOUR MIND AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH. GODS BLESSINGS TO ALL OF YOU OUT THERE, THESE ARE HARD TIMES THAT WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW..THE APOSTACY IS HERE AND JESUS IS COMING REALLY SOON. GET YOUR HEART RIGHT BEFORE GOD AND BE READY WHEN THAT SPIRITUAL TRUMPET BLOWS. MEET YOU IN THE CLOUDS.

-- child of the king (shansen8@yahoo.com), February 02, 2001.

Our church has three services, the last one being my favorite, it's contemporary with praise songs, they're not hymns, but the words come straight from the Bible. It attracts the young people, especially the college kids. At first I didn't know what to think about these kids showing up in short dresses, baggy pants, & colored hair. But we treated them as we would anyone, and you know it turns out they were just interested in the shock value, they wanted to see just how accepted they would be, & after receiving unconditional love the clothes have become more modest, & as I look at the congregation I see "normal" colors of hair now, not a bunch of green, purple, & pink. They are respectful, they're coming to church & hearing the Word. On the other side of this where would they be if we had turned them out? I'm so glad I belong to a loving & compassionate church, that sees souls not clothes.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), February 02, 2001.

We attend a very small,not rich country church. I've seen jeans, shorts,suits,dresses and flannel shirts. Beards are fine.The one thing I am impressed with is the fact that no one smells of manure considering they were in the barn before going to church. Out here clothing is not worn to church to impress anyone. It is worn for modesty. God bless!!

-- Ardie (a6203@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

God don't care what you wear to church, just as long as you get there.

What's with the bold and all caps? you guys about gave me verdigo.

-- jennifer (schwabauer@aol.com), February 04, 2001.

It has become so that we feel that we always have to dress up for church. My pastor had a sermon on it a while ago and he said that you should always wear your best to church. If your best is jean overalls and a t-shirt, then wear that. But i still don't get it. if God dosen't care what we look like or wear, then why do we have to dress up for church? I don't think i will ever understand this.

-- Renee (dogpile@hotmail.com), March 09, 2002.

It's not so much what God thinks, but what we think of ourselves. Our clothes, like our posture, can affect our attitude. I don't wear my garden grubbies to church, but on the other hand I don't spend money on fancy clothes. I always wear skirts (no stockings) so dressing for church isn't a big deal. I just make sure I'm neat & clean.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), March 10, 2002.

BE INTERESTING TO KNOW IF THE TABLETS THAT MOSES BROUGHT DOWN FROM THE MOUNT WERE SCRIBED IN CAPS AND/OR BOLD.

Hmm. Was the original Hebrew (translated to Aramaic, Greek, Roman, King James' English (btw, wasn't he a Scot?). et al, considered SHOUTING?

Covering my head with the holy armor of God,

-- Gloria_Agnes (ishmael@bombsofGilead.com), March 11, 2002.

I feel so lucky. To feel close to G-d all I have to do is go out back and lay down in the grass.Watch the clouds or the stars. Whatever I'm wearing,if anything, seems to be okay. No intermediary necessary out here. aaaahhhhhhhh peace jz

-- jz (oz49us@yahoo.com), March 12, 2002.