In the Case of Elian Gonzalas--Members of the jury--How Say You ?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread
This case is giving me nightmares. I keep seeing Vicki Weaver's head explode and her body fall clutching her child. And after the children burning in Waco--are we still going to let Janet Reno run this show ? The FBI's first response team is in Miami and these are not really just FBI agents--they are Delta Force trained snipers. I don't think they are there working on their tans. I have been on the phone all night and I have called everyone that has a listed phone number that I could find and left messages. If the words on the Statue of Liberty mean anything--than Elian certainly qualifies under them. I truly believe it is our duty this time to make sure our Federal authorities don't murder anymore children in the name of justice. OK--here is your chance--"We the People"--- How say You ???
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 16, 2000
If the tables were turned and it was an American boy in cuba, wouldn't we be at war already? The boy has a father and even if that father is in cuba that is where he ought to be no questions ask. This morning I saw Cuban/Americians waving the cuban flag in front of the boys house wanting him sent back home to Cuba...If they think cuba is that great then I agree he should go home and they should all go with him
-- Grant Eversoll (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
If the boy were 12 years old I would say let him stay. But setting polotics aside, a 6 year old should be with his father. No one is without balame here except a very confused little boy.Communisium is just a form of Socialism and our country is getting closer and closer every year. We have to have the governments permission for every thing we do. From building a house to driving a car. All in the name of protecting us. Doris in Idaho
-- Doris Richards (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
As a parent, I say the boy belongs with his father. God forbid that some country could take my child away from me simply because they do not believe in my political system. Do we feel americans are the only people with the right to have a child? Kim
-- kim (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
It is a SAD situation, but the boy should be with his Father. The relatives and the Miami Cuban community should abide by our laws. The Cubans have taken over Miami without firing a shot!
-- Mark (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
The boy should stay here with the family who has kept him since he was found while DUE PROCESS OF LAW is adequately carried out. This administration has been busy trying to get the child back to Cuba without going through the proper channels. What happened here anyway? Isn't this the same administration whose mantra is "for the children"? Being sent back to a third world country to live with a non-custodial father under Communist dictatorship IS NOT in the best interest of the child. And while we are on this question, why is it that Clinton and his minions are so busy trying to kiss up to Castro anyway? He is a little nothing. Note however, that the father came over on a government owned and operated private plane, and he seems to always be accompanied by "representatives". Could it be, oh could it just be, that Fidel is afraid Poppa might want to live here with little Elian?
And yes, Joel, it does worry me. I remember Vicki Weaver. I remember Waco. Waco was "for the children" too. The new Branch Davidian Church is being dedicated there on the old site today, by the way.
-- Carmen (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
The child belongs to his father, wherever his father lives. Is this another case, as in Waco, where there is an hidden agenda?
-- sissy sylvester (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
I might have rumour or incorrect information but: I am told and have read that the mother and child were fleeing not only Cuba but an abusive spouse and father. More the abusive husband than Cuba. I think that at least should be examined before we hand an innocent child back after fate or God has delivered him to our shores. Why is the father not in the house visiting him ? Why do we use FBI response teams instead of trained social workers ? I have looked into the eyes of Janet Reno and there is no humanity in them ! She is as cold and heartless as any wounded wild animal that I have ever encountered. She has single handedly been responsible for more deaths than most serial killers combined. She said " The buck stops with me" and she was right ! Why she is not on deathrow somewhere is our fault. If the boy was a citizen--he would be placed with his relatives and the father would have supervised visitation and a review in 6 months. Wouldn't that be proper procedure here ? Or, is Reno fixin to carve some more notches in her trigger happy gun ?
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 16, 2000.
I have been sickened by what I have seen on TV relating to this child.This whole situation exemplifies all that is not so great about our country..Here's a little kid as a living symbol of capitalism at it's worst, surrounded by zillions of toys, being dragged out for photo ops at Disneyworld, hounded by the press, ad nauseum...no wonder other folks think we are nuts.How can this child hope to have a "normal" life in this country? I think all would be well for this kid eventually if he received a dual citizenship and then went back to Cuba with his father.Let him return to the US under his own power when he reaches an age where he can make that decision for himself.Can anyone honestly believe that this kid is better off here under these circumstances?????? What's next for him, fifty grand for his school papers in the Enquirer???? The folks in Miami are using him,the Cuban government is using him, our government is using him..poor kid needs a little peace and quiet in his life.I feel very sorry for him and embarassed for the US...I think we look like idiots.
-- Lesley Chasko (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
My thinking on this whole situation is that this is not about Elian.. its about 30 yrs. ago,....and Castro & Kennedy and the Bay of Pigs. I feel that this is a private matter that should be settled amongst the family. The government and media should stay out. Heres a thought... I was watching a movie on TV several yrs ago about a woman who had married a man from some country in the Middle East.. can't recall country, but anyways the husband took the kids and she had to steal them back. Why did our country not do more at the time fro her?,,, True, the kids were in a foreign country, but we did nothing.. and shes not the only mother who experienced this. Yet we are willing to stick out our necks for this situation.. If we do for one then we need to consistently do for all children then involved in such custody battles. theres an agenda somewhere.
-- Bernice (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
It's weird to admit this, but I am so sick of Janet Reno, Elian G, and the whole thing that I have prety much just buried my head in the sand about it. I turn off the radio if a report comes on, don't read the articles in the paper, and I don't watch teevee news anyway (unless I need a weather report). It upsets me that there is a little boy who is being tortured by all of this, but the rest of the so called adults are just being jerks (the nicest word I could think of). I just don't think my opinion matters in the least. I'm sure it's incredibly complicated and positions could be argued on both sides. I am just nauseated about it turning into a side show event.
-- sheepish (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
joel- maybe we should grab this guys other kid while we have the chance? how far should this go?
-- (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
I have to agree with you Sheepish. I'm pretty fed up with the whole thing and the tax dollars being spent to handle it. I say let's just send out a call to every country and see if any of them want to come over here and live. We'll just take in everyone whether or not we can handle it. The fact remains illegal immigration is against the laws of our country. We can't take in everyone that wants to come here no matter how sad their plight. Elian's mother did not follow legal procedures to immigrate, she just tried to show up and, unfortunately, lost her life in the process, but that doesn't mean well okay now it's okay for him to stay. What are we talking about his legal right to due process? Ask all of the Jamaican boat people that we send back all the time about their due process. There is no such thing when you come as an illegal alien. The fact remains, he is not here legally, we should do the same thing with him that we do with all the others. Why are we treating him differently? Because the government is afraid of the rioting that is going to occur in Miami. Well, I'm sorry, let it happen. We can't let mobs dictate our policy. Send him back, end of story. If we want to then give him a visa to come back when he reaches 21, fine. But we'll do it under our laws and not because mobs dictate otherwise. While I am all for changing laws and even doing away with a lot of them, I also believe you change laws through legal means not through disobeying the law. If the Cubans in this country had their way we would have all of Cuba living here. Have any of you lived in Miami? I have. It is not like living in the U.S. It is like living in a foreign country. I support immigration but I don't support having foreigners just carve out a chunk of our country to start up their own little country which right now is what Little Havana and the surrounding area is. Now they are controlling our immigration policy. Elian belongs with his father, albeit in a country that is not a great place to live, but we can't make everyone's life perfect. I for one will be glad when this thing is over.
-- Colleen (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
I've worked in Miami and yes there are many many spanish speaking people there ! I have also been to New York and their were many Italions,Jews and Irish there (many,many) I've lived in Iowa where the population is over run with Swedes,Norwigians and germans.(with ego's as big as Texas). I'm a redneck hillbilly so, where ever I go, I am a minority. The law is a self serving aristocracy but that is another forum. I get the picture though--Apathy,hurry this up, who cares and just get it over with ! America--home of the free?--not anymore ! America--home of the brave?--not many ! America--justice for all?--only if your white ! Thank You members of the jury--you have collectively showed that this system of govenment is --how did sheepish say it?--Got it's head stuck somewhere !
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 16, 2000.
Joel, Hogwash! Let's think about it differently. Your mother-in-law (did you say her name was Lucifer or something??) has a crazy brother. He hates capitalism and is so defiant he renounced his U.S. citizenship and moved to Cuba to help with their Urban Agriculture program (one of the best in the world). Your ex-wife, who by the way, hates you and says quite a few nasty things about you, decides to try also to go to Cuba. She thinks she will find a better life there, she doesn't have health insurance here and is worried about caring for your child. So she leaves the U.S. and risks the life of your child. She dies but the kid lives. Crazy old Uncle Louis gets him in Cuba. Castro decides to make him a poster child for Communism. They argue you can't have him back because he would be raised as a Capitalist. Besides, they know you can't provide for him, you have no health insurance. Don't even mention the fact that they aren't crazy about all the guns your son says you have.
What do you do? Hell you are the dad, he's your kid, you love him. My impression is you'd grap your AK-47 and head south. Well okay maybe not but I would argue you deserve your child back. Don't you think you would? And if you would, why doesn't Mr. Gonzalas?
I've lived in Miami too. Five years of graduate school at the University of Miami. My opinion is the judges and politicians know what a strong vote the Cuban Americans have. These folks are from a communist country and my God they excercise their right to vote. The politicians are pandering for votes at the expense of a 6 year old child!!!!
Joel, the thing I like about you is we can totally dissagree, respect each other, and become better thinkers in the process!! BUT I STILL THINK YOU ARE WRONG ON THIS ONE.
-- kim (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
This shouldn't even be a legal issue; it should be a family issue. The boy belongs with his father and keeping him and refusing to give him back to his father is kidnapping. And who in their right mind would go to Miami to get this child with the house surrounded by lunatics? Joel- haven't you noticed that it is NOT the US gov't that is laying siege to the house, it is the lunatics. Grabbing a gun and running off to shoot someone is not the way to solve any problem, by the way.
-- Peg (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
I whole heartedly agree with Kim. And who are the lunitics surrounding this kid, the media! Vicki
-- Vicki McGaugh (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
Yes my mother in law is satan--now on to something more interesting than the proverbial prostitute in church. I agree the boy is a patsy and a darn cute little patsy and the lucky wonder boy also. I even think the relatives are lying about the father to try to get the boy citizenship. These are matters for our courts and child protective services to decide. This could have been done in about 4 hours,two weeks ago. But than Janet Reno wouldn't get to kill anyone and that is what I am worried about. The grandstand, full riot gear,black cobra helicopter --all out assualt on national tv that the attorney General lives her live for ! Damn the innocent children and bystanders --we are going to induce a little law and order here (is it prime time yet ) ? I can hear her now--Elian wouldn't come outside so I made the decision to induce non-lethal CS gas into the home(flammable but not lethal) And no one feels worse than me about the fire and deaths(except the dead people) The buck stops with me,again Now if you'll excuse me --I must go write my memoirs). I agree the press is the problem ! If we granted restraining orders on the press-- the mob outside would go home. I fail to understand the logic behind calling anyone standing up for what they believe to be right, a lunatic. The founding fathers were lunatics but they won so they are the founding fathers. They killed 100 plus people at Waco and Ruby Ridge and that was a terrible accident but when Timothy McVie retaliated than that was a hienous crime. Ron Horduchi fired and killed Vicki Weaver and that was justified ?--I had the murdering dog in my cross hairs and if I would have shot than that would be murder? I only want to shed light on double standards. I realize justice is in the hands of the richest player(or highest bidder) but couldn't we just once ask our government to sit down ,shut up and we don't require your presence in this matter. It would take me about 10 minutes with the father and 10 minutes with Elian to decide the whole matter and I ain't no rocket scientist, but I am fair.
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 16, 2000.
Someone wrote that the Cuban-American population is from a communist country and apparently has a problem with them having the right to vote?? Actually, the vast majority of them emigrated to the US just before Fidel closed the door and started his little Marxist experiment. These folks HAD to flee their own country (capitalistic before Fidel) or be subjected to a Communist dictatorship. They are as freedom loving as any American and have just as much right to call themselves Americans as anyone else. After all, they are naturalized citizens for gosh sakes. There are some in other regions of the US that may think the South would be wonderful if it weren't for all those Southerners. "There so different from us and just who do they think they are! Why they actual have the right to vote and OF COURSE vote wrongly!" Actually we did have our own country for a little while. Texans did it twice! Lets not let ethnic prejudice get in the way here.
The way I see it, Castro is getting ALL the political milage he can out of this, while our government wrings it's hands over the whole mess, not knowing what to do (sorry Joel, I don't buy the ATF/FBI/Jackbooted Thug in the closet routine).
To me it's a family deal and should be handled as such. Let the relatives and the father sort it out. If government involvement is needed, let the DHS get involved, both here and in Cuba, if they have such, and the court systems of both countries, NOT the Dept. of Justice. What jurisdiction does Reno have in a custody dispute? She's stuck her nose into something she really doesn't have a clue about, has no real authority over the situation and it shows. Man she looked really dumb down in Miami this past week.
The so called adults getting their "agendas" out of the way would go a long way in clearing this mess up. Where should he stay? I don't have all the facts so I don't really know. Since I'm not part of their family it's really none of my business.
-- Steve in TN (Lynswim@mindspring.com), April 16, 2000.
I too am SICK & TIRED of hearing about Elian Gonzales. You would think he was the only kid in the world. I agree wholeheartedly with Sheepish, Kim, Lesley and Colleen. The kid belongs with his dad and we have made a circus out of the whole mess.
-- barbara (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
You misunderstood what I was saying. Goodness that is the problem with the internet, so quick to type something that is easily misunderstood. I have no problems with the Cuban Americans voting. In fact I greatly respect that they do! It is a good example of why we should all excercise our right!! What I was saying is that the politicians are pandering to the Cuban AMerican population, simply because they are such a powerful voting block. Yes they are all Americans - I agree whole heartedly!!! kim
-- kim (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
The people in Miami should be jailed for child abuse for knowingly and volutarily subjecting the kid to all this nonsense. And if not that then kidnapping. He belongs with his father.
-- john leake (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
So Joel, in the real world, here and now, what would you have *us* do??? You see, I don't think there's anything we CAN do. You have said that if we send the press home, the rest will follow, etc. The best thing I can think of is to ignore it. Maybe if the rest of the 260 million Americans took the same stance we could just call it a day, and leave it to CPS, Cuba, whoever, to solve it. Then everyone could go home without any more violence. All this grandstanding is taking place because of the huge audience of drooling voyeurs sucking up all that the press can deliver. It's the new OJ story or the new Kennedy plane crash or whatever. I agree that there are important justice issues at stake, but do you think those aforementioned droolers are concerned about that?
Having been personally involved in the difficulties of child custodial issues, I find it tremendously sickening that this very private matter is being aired in front of the whole world.
But my question to you is real: What would you have us do?
-- sheepish (email@example.com), April 16, 2000.
30 years ago a simple scenario; A mother and her child run towards the Berlin Wall from the East heading West. She grabs her 5 year old child and manages to get the child over the wall. She is now trying to ascend the wall. The East Berlin Militia open fire killing a weeping mother gripped with fear. The U.S.Army finds the child. Would we then toss the child back over the wall? Serving proudly in the military to keep our rights as free people I truly believe this cuban child should stay here! Many of you who are replying to this question from Joel are all decendants of Imigrants. Some also have relatives who served in the military to preserve these rights. Some even gave their lives for our rights! This government is not perfect, but all of us still can exercise our freedom.
-- Dominic (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 16, 2000.
He should be allowed to stay. Lesser of two evils, in my opinion. BTW, I'm a firm believer in parental rights!
-- Jean (email@example.com), April 17, 2000.
Sorry to misunderstand. My mistake. The internet does have a way of scrambling things. You're right in that politicians in South Fla. do pander to the Cuban vote. I wont say that's a good thing, usually it's not, but that's how our system works. We have a similar problem in this part of the country. I've always considered myself somewhat conservative, but around here (NE Tennessee) I'm to the left of just about everyone. If our Republican politicians don't spout the ultra-conservative, party line, they can forget it. Democrats? They're as scarce as hens teeth.
-- Steve in TN (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 17, 2000.
Good point, Sheepish. I think a lot of us think that this whole situation has been handled abominably! I don't know why, really, though I have come up with lots of conspiracy theories, mostly having to do with diverting our attention from other things (WTO, IMF, World Bank, etc) and business (job security for the press). But seriously, you have a good question. Let's fix the problem, not the blame, as my old wifey says.
So why not let the courts decide, but meanwhile let Elian stay with his Dad in the US. I'd rather just send him home with his Dad, but if it's necessary to wait for the courts to make a decision, surely the boy should be with his Dad while they wait, or with a guardian appointed by his Dad, if the Dad can't stay here that long.
Meanwhile, I agree with John: charge all the parties who are detaining this child illegally with kidnapping!
-- jumpoff joe (email@example.com), April 17, 2000.
To shepish--Joel said in a call today for you to call your senator and ask for him to remove Janet Reno and the justice people rom the case. He also ask for prayers and said hi from Florida
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 18, 2000.
Becky, I will contact my senator(s)about this and I will pray for everyone in Florida involved in this mess, including now, it would seem, Joel. Thank you for posting.
-- sheepish (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 18, 2000.
Notice: I was just sent something on my AboutFreedom Mailing list I thought you all would find interesting. According to this e-mail the 11th circut court of appeals has declared that Janet Reno has violated the law in the Elian Gonzales Case. I can't cut and past into this thing or I would, so you'll have to settle for a few quotes. If anyone want's to see the whole thing please e-mail, and I will forward. The Judicial watch chairman said " Attorney General Reno's arrogance in trying to deny the rights of Elian Gonzales, contrary to law, to live free in the United States, is unprecidented in American history. She has created the appearance of not only being a lackey for the Clinton- Gore White House, but the brutal communist dictator Fidel Castro..." http://www.JudicialWatch.org
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), April 20, 2000.
I believe the boy should stay here!
His father has shown all the traits of an abusive man by his flaring temper and other aspects.
If he really loved the child he'd want him to have freedom....and if he loved the wife and other child he would defect with them now and all stay in the U.S.
We have a HUGE influx of hispanics in our area during the past decade especially and it's because they've come to try and have a better life. Every Saturday morning the post office has a long line of them waiting to send money orders back to Mexico to their relatives.
I have NO FAITH in our judicial/legal system because as a reporter for more than 20 years I have seen time and time again where it's who has the most money and knows the most people who win a judgment. Right now we are fighting to get my 4 year old grandchild back from Michigan because the courts let her "birth" father have her the day he got out of jail.....even tho he had previously served 3 months in jail in that state for shooting at the kids, his mama, and my daughter...the car with the bullet holes is sitting in my driveway right now...but the courts say he is no "danger" to the kids because he has never actually HURT them before....if somebody can explain that logic to me I'd appreciate it!!!
Let the little boy stay here!!!
-- Suzy in 'Bama (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 21, 2000.
In the 19 century, Davy Crockett, tore off his coat and shirt on the floor of congress and resigned, in protest of their failure to honor the treaties with the Native Americans. At that moment Davy Crockett became more than an american, he became a human being and a citizen of planet earth. I was disappointed with some of the responses. I ask myself--How can any country so rich in the history of liberty have produced such people that value it so little ? So many men have died to insure these liberties to us and so did Elian's mother--- in the attempt to insure him a chance for him ! Today, we celebrate the resurection of Jesus in our homes with our families by our sides and I am one of the lucky ones to do this. The freedom to worship (or not to worship) is one of our greatest liberties. But as you enjoy this today, I want you to remember that there are still 250 plus men in Miami that won't get to be with their families. They are not being paid and they are not wearing uniforms. They are your friends, neighbors and fellow countrymen who left their jobs,farms and families to insure that justice is granted to a little boy. They have ripped off their coats and shirts to become more than just an americans. They are the men that put the word "all" back into the phrase "all men are created equal" The best part of this is--Janet Reno is not the top of the food chain anymore --and she won't be killing any children this weekend !!!! Oh yeah, I forgot the most important part to many americans--these men aren't costing you a dime. Elian will get his day in court and he does qualify under the statue of liberty-"give us your poor, your tired and your huddled masses". This is one day there will be justice for all or death in the attempt of it. We as homesteaders should be more mindful of this than any other group of citizens I know of. It is us who understand freedom more than any other group. So I urge you, take your heads out of the sand, throw off that apathy, care what happens to other people's freedoms and work to insure that this country's ideals are inherited by your great grand children. Happy Easter to all
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 22, 2000.
I'm sorry I left Miami, I'm sorry to be an american this morning. What justice is there when the attorney geneal does not recognize the authority of her own courts ? Welcome to the end of any freedom--say hello to the tyranny of Janet Reno. I do feel this is my fault --I let 1500 men go home last night because I felt she would not attack on Easter. If we let her get away with this--there is nothing left to believe in.
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), April 22, 2000.
Joel, your problem is that you are an honorable man and think others are capable of honoring the law and honoring holy days. At least there are already millions of copies of the photo with the SWAT team member holding the gun on Elian and his fisherman friend. Maybe at least people will begin to realize that this could happen to them just as it has happened to these people. They also believed in the "rule of law" Reno likes to quote so much and thought she would actually honor it. People need to begin to realize that what happened to Elian and his caretakers has been happening all across the country, with heavily armed military-type police breaking into the homes of non-violent offenders and shooting and sometimes killing people. Remember, the Branch Davidians at Waco were found not guilty by a jury, then sentenced to prison by a judge anyway. So much for our "rule of law".
-- Carmen (email@example.com), April 22, 2000.
Why on earth is all this on a homesteading forum? I really enjoy countryside because among other things it allows me to get away from all the craziness in the world and enjoy a simpler, more saner lifestyle. PLEASE lets leave these issues to the tabloids and talk radio. Does anyone agree?
-- Kate Henderson (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 22, 2000.
One cannot hope to enjoy a "saner' life away from the sidewalks if one ignores the larger society's behavior.History has proven time and time again that when people ignore what their government is doing, the government does anything it wishes to do..then those folks wake up one fine moning, with government trucks in their driveway and cannot understand "how it all happened".For most homesteaders, government, big and small is a large issue, as it should be.Government affects zoning,homeschooling,economics of farming,access to goods,etc.I am with Joel in that to preserve our very freedoms of homesteading, we must not turn away from these issues, merely because we find them distasteful and a part of life that we choose not to sanction.Homesteading is so much more than learning how to grow one's own food,it is also learning how to protect one's right to grow it.I may not agree with Joel's responses, but will protect his right to his opinions with my very life.
-- Lesley Chasko (email@example.com), April 23, 2000.