I recently read "Salad Bar Beef" by Joel Salatin. In this book he says he uses Shaklee Basic H Soap as a cattle wormer. He adds it to their drinking water for a couple of days. Supposedly, it's non-toxic and very safe. Has any one ever tried this on horses and how did you do it? Do you think it is effective? Any other ideas on alternatives to de-wormers like Ivermectin for horses or other livestock?

-- Mel Carroll (frank.a.carroll@worldnet.att.net), May 02, 2000

Answers

Jeffers... and many others that I can't think of off the top of my head, now carry herbal dewormers. Someone on a goat web site did a comparason for a 4H project of ivermectin vs herbal in a goat heard. The herbal came out the same or better in some cases. I would give it a try... and maybe even try my own concoction after reading the label. I use black walnut oil for the goats and horses, which is supposed to deworm them. It is hard to know for sure, I also rotate pastures, and use ivermectin only in the fall ( rather than the indicated every 4 months) and am worm free... or close *G*.

-- Marci Brown (daleb@kent.net), May 03, 2000.

Marci, this is only half of the story. The route given for the Ivermctin (subQ) is not even approved or recommended for goats. If you don't give the Ivermectin orally and at the correct dose, than how can you compare it to anything? With fecals before and fecals after the correct dose of any wormer, you should see improvement or else you are dealing with resistant worms. Since the fecal samples were not taken before in either group of goats tested, we don't even know what worms the herbal wormer killed! (If any) And we know the Ivermectin does had higher worm burdens after, but what where they, which type of worm, and they truly weren't wormed anyway with the dosage and route given. There are very vocal folks on Egroups with herbal wormers, and herbal healing of Johnnes, CAE and CL. But when pressed for true information, you will find that the testing is not there. Mel, I would be curious to know if this guy tests for worms in his cattle, folks down the road fed their goats cigirettes to worm them, I even had a well known vet in a major goat magazine answer this question, and gave them a copy of the article, stating that the amount of nicotin needed to worm a goat, would kill the goat. Just that glazed look, big mouth women and all! It's just like blueing in the water for worming, and vinegar in the water to increase your animals having females. Bunk! Keep a small of enough herd of any animal, clean pens, rotate pastures, and live where it freezes, a gal friend of mine in Wyoming didn't worm once last year (she fecal samples) here in Texas my goats would be dead! Vicki McGaugh

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 03, 2000.

Neat!! We use Shaklee soap for dishes, laundry and other general uses, but I've never thought of it as a wormer....

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), May 03, 2000.

I don't know about Basic H for a dewormer, but it is a great insect repellent. Kills fleas on contact. I keep a spray bottle filled with Basic H full strength around and spray on me and around the outside doors where people bring them in on their feet and the dog brings them in, I spray his bed too between washings. The fleas seem to bother me more than the cats, the dog or anyone else in my household.

Blessings

-- Judy Murray (jmurray@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu), May 09, 2000.

I have not either heard or read about the shaklee worm remedy, but, I do agree with Vickie. I have seen a lot of herds that were too big and not managed properly and then every summer they boo-hoo cuase the goats get "bottle-jaw!" I personally believe, and its only my humble opinion that good management is the key to health. I will not rule shaklee out, just would like to keep checking for forther info on it on the post.

Bernice

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 09, 2000.

I keep wondering WHY this soap would work? If this soap works, wouldn't any basic true soap work? What could this do besides cause diarrhea? Granted diarrhea does have a certain worming effect, depending on what kind of parasite and at what stage of life. But you could do the same adding edible oil to their feed, possibly to their water, or by drenching them with it.

Even reducing the parasite load has a beneficial effect on most animals. But like the others, I'd like to see some studies I trusted before I made any claims for Basic H or anything else.

Another old wormer is pumpkin seeds. Every year from fall on, I throw pumpkins to the stock. I haven't any idea if the pumpkin seeds have any worming effect or not, but the animals eat the pumpkins happily. I figure I'm sure that pumpkins won't hurt them and I may be getting some benefit from feeding them the seeds. Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

Oh how I love homesteaders! We are so different and yet so similar. Some want the pen gates to open in and others want them to open out. Some have free range chickens, some clip one wing to keep them penned and some find only clipping both wings will work. Some are anti- government and others use all the government agencies they can. Some want high dollar tests to prove something works and others will give anything (well, almost anything) a try and get their own test results. And that's what makes homesteading work for so many -- there are so many different ways of doing it. Ivermectin works wonderfully for some and others would rather use herbs/seeds/soap. There is no wrong way if it works for you whether it be vinegar in the water to give you more does or blueing in the water to worm. If it works for you and you're happy, then good for you! I think reading all about the expensive tests results is great. I think making your decisions based on them makes good sense too, but I also believe in disagreeing. No matter what the tests say, if you don't want to use that product, then don't. I can't think of a better place to find alternatives than here at this forum. You get good advise on both sides of every issue and then you can choose, experiment, and try again if need be. Homesteaders are the backbone of this country because they think for themselves.

Well, I guess I'm through carrying on like that. Just wanted to let you know how much I love this forum because we can be different and not hate each other because of it. As for the Basic-H; the reason it works has something to do with the fact that it is so gentle and non- toxic. It will not give your animals diarrhea as other soaps might. Why this is I'm not sure. I do know someone that thought a glass contained water but after she began drinking it she realized it contained Shaklee germicide. She was in a panic and called the poison control center. They said to do nothing and that she would have no ill effects. Sure enough she felt no different, no upset stomach, no diarrhea, no nothing. This is strong stuff and yet absolutely nothing happened. I have heard of others using Basic-H to worm as well as to aid digestion but I don't have the specifics. I hope you can find the amount of Basic-H to give to your animals and share it with all of us because there are some who like this gentle way of treating such horrible parasites.

-- Yesteryear Cottage (oberg@watervalley.net), May 10, 2000.

== I use black walnut oil for the goats and horses, which is supposed to deworm them. It is hard to know for sure ==

Have the vet do a fecal count to give you the answer.

With the known toxity of this tree, wouldn't the oil also be suspect?

http://www.vet.purdue.edu/depts/addl/toxic/plant45.htm

-- ~Rogo (rogo2020@yahoo.com), May 12, 2001.