Less Toxic chemicals

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Recently, I found a non-acetic acid stop bath, and wondered if there are other non or less toxic options in place of the traditonal D-76, Dektol, Rapid Fix chemicals I normally use. Thanks.

-- Allen Birnbach (allenb@indra.com), May 04, 2000

Answers

With proper ventilation and even a modicum of common sense the traditional chemicals may be used quite safely.

-- Ed Buffaloe (edbuffaloe@unblinkingeye.com), May 04, 2000.

Safety of use is one thing, environmental protection the other!

BTW: Acetic acid is not toxic. (Or vinaigrette on a salad would be a bad idea!) Conc. acetic acid is highly corrosice, but the dilute just stinks.

Almost all of the other chemicals we use are toxic to some degree, and in some countries (including my own, Germany), it is not permissible to pour used solutions down the drain.

The only "less toxic" chemical that has recently come to my attention is Agfa's Neutol Plus (paper developer), where hydroquinone has been replaced by vitamin C as the developing agent. You should still not use this developer to complement your breakfast cereal because it does contain other substances that are harmful (albeit less than hydroquinone), but it is certainly a step in the right direction. I have tested it and used it ever since.

-- Thomas Wollstein (thomas_wollstein@web.de), May 04, 2000.


Thomas, Can you give me a sense of comparison of the Agfa Neutrol to, say, Dektol? How are highlights and shadows, contrast, and soup time? Thanks.

-- Allen Birnbach (allenb@indra.com), May 04, 2000.

Sorry, I haven't used Dektol yet, as it is not so common in Germany. My standard developer before Neutol Plus was Tetenal's Eukobrom, which, however, acc. to some article I read, should be more or less equivalent to Dektol. Although I always had the idea to make identical copies of a print, or at least contact prints of a step tablet in Neutol Plus and Eukobrom, I haven't got round to it yet, because I am struggling with my printing backlog. So I will have to stay pretty general for the time being:

Neutol Plus (don't confuse it with the other variants of Neutol) appears to be a pretty active developer. Although the recommended development times given on the bottle are not much different from what you read on other bottles (1 1/2 to 2 mins for RC, 2 to 3 for FB for 1+9 - you may also use 1+7 if you want shorter times). I have the impression that the first traces of the image appear faster than I was used to with Eukobrom, especially on FB paper. The blacks are rich, with a slight tendency to cool tones. One article in a magazine called it "a tendency toward selenium-toner blacks". Even when fresh, Neutol Plus looks a bit like Old Brown: It has an amber colour. I haven't found this to be a problem. I haven't found any obvious differences paper speed, contrast, etc., to my papers' behaviour since I changed, but - as I said - I haven't bothered to make identical prints in both developers yet. I mostly used Forte Polywarmtone Plus, in both RC and FB variants, sometimes also Ilford MG IV RC and Ilford MG Warmtone FB.

Sorry I am not too much of a help.

-- Thomas Wollstein (thomas_wollstein@web.de), May 05, 2000.


Thomas, thanks for the additional info. With that, I think I'll get some and start testing.

-- Allen Birnbach (allenb@indra.com), May 05, 2000.


I find the statement that "Hydroquinone has been replaced with Vitamin C" in a developer quite incredible.

Vitamin C or Ascorbic acid has none of the characteristics of a developing agent, save for the fact that it is a reducer (anti-oxidant). All other known developing agents are Benzene Ring based, usually with amine and/or hydroxyl radicles; Ascorbic acid has a much simpler chemical formula, and doesn't have a Benzene Ring structure.

I can see how it might work as an accelerator for a true developing agent by stabilising the redox reaction, but not as a developing agent in its own right. Besides, if it really was a developing agent, I think somebody would have stumbled on it before now, since it's such a cheap and common chemical. The only formula I've seen published using Vitamin C was basically a D76 derivative, simply using the Ascorbic acid as a pH buffer in place of the more usual Boric acid.

I think Agfa are stretching the truth here, and are using the "healthy image" of Vitamin C to appear more ecologically responsible. Vitamin C has had quite a history of attracting extravagent claims for itself, but this must be one of the best.

-- Pete Andrews (p.l.andrews@bham.ac.uk), May 05, 2000.


"I find the statement that "Hydroquinone has been replaced with Vitamin C" in a developer quite incredible."

Doesn't Xtol use Vitamin C and Phenidone. Kodak claims that Vitamin C works as a developing agent in that application.

-- Tim Brown (brownt@ase.com), May 05, 2000.

No. What Kodak actually says is that Xtol is Ascorbic acid based. Not that the Ascorbic acid is a developing agent. It's probably acting as an accelerator to the Phenidone, much like the Hydroquinone superadditivity does. Phenidone has a tendency to fogging on its own though, and Kodak claim that it's very clean working. Interesting, I'll be round the Chemists for a bottle of Vitamin C tablets tonight.

-- Pete Andrews (p.l.andrews@bham.ac.uk), May 05, 2000.

Everything is toxic. Even oxygen and water are toxic. The question is whether they are actually hazardous in normal use.

With any of the photo chemistry, you need to work with good ventilation and avoid skin contact. When mixing powders, avoid breathing any dust released (and dust WILL be released).

If you go to the RIT pages, there are some articles on non-traditional developers. As I understand it, Vitamin C can act as a developer alone, but not a very good one. But it does work well with other developers in a superadditive combination. They even mention experimenting with coffee as a developer.

-- Terry Carraway (TCarraway@compuserve.com), May 05, 2000.


The best source of this information is MSDS. Kodak has a wonderful web site including a section with country specific MSDSs. The URL is http://kodak.com/US/en/corp/hse/prodSearchMSDS.shtml

-- Chris Hawkins (peace@clover.net), May 06, 2000.


I'm shocked! 70 % of the material making up my body (water) are toxic!

OK, seriously now: Chemicals require care in their handling, no matter what the degree of toxicity is. However, I think it is our responsibility towards ourselves, the people potentially exposed to any contamination in our darkrooms (I guess there are many bathroom darkrooms.) and to our environment (which is what provides subjects for the art we practice) to at least consider using the least dangerous stuff wherever possible. (This may sound somewhat PC, but it has been my conviction long before anybody thought of calling it that.)

Nor for the technical stuff: From the information I got so far, I do believe that vitamin C is indeed the developing agent in Neutol Plus. I will contact a person at Agfa with whom I have been in contact before and see whether it is possible to get a full declaration of the ingredients of Neutol Plus.

-- Thomas Wollstein (thomas_wollstein@web.de), May 09, 2000.


I have not used the vitamin C developer. All of the chemicals I do use are not the kinds of things I feel good about pouring down the drain. That is why I now have a large bucket in an inconspicuous place in my back yard. All of my used chemicals go in this bucket. The water evaporates, leaving the toxic stuff in the bucket. I'll be very old by the time the bucket fills up. I'll have to think of some way to safely dispose of the bucket; but I've got much time to think about that.

I know this solution will not work for everyone. But, some variant of it may be feasible.

Keeping our toxic stuff out of the environment should be a top concern for every photographer.

Jason Kefover

-- Jason Kefover (jkefover@york.tec.sc.us), May 09, 2000.


Thomas,

Actually ALL the things that make up your body are toxic, yes even water. But they may not be hazardous due to the quantity required to cause harm or the lack of exposure. BTW water is toxic by flushing electrolytes from the body. If you drink too much water without replacing the electrolytes, you can actually die.

-- Terry Carraway (TCarraway@compuserve.com), May 10, 2000.


Jason,

Other than the metals in toners and the silver in used fixer, most every photo chemical is biodegradable. It is not a problem with pouring it down the drain, especially in normal household darkroom levels.

One should do silver recovery to avoid putting heavy metals into the environment. But the silver compounds in ixer are not as hazardous as other heavy metal compounds. Plus you can get money back for the silver recovered with some processes.

The problem with your solution is if a child were to get into the bucket, you could be in for some serious liability.

-- Terry Carraway (TCarraway@compuserve.com), May 10, 2000.


Hello everybody,

Neutol plus contains a derivate of ascorbic acid (vitamin C). This derivate is used to prevent food (meat, canned fruits etc.) against oxidation. This kind of vitamin C is the only development agent. That means there is no other developing agent which creates a superadditve system. Most of the b&w paper developers contain two development agents.

Wolfgang

-- Wolfgang Holz (wolfgangrh@gmx.de), May 29, 2000.



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