John, although I know that much of what I am going to say here is known to you, I thought that it might be interesting to open a new thread about theVulgata issue, because this is an important story and not always known by Catholics, as may be the case for some frequenters of this forum. I think it is even more important vis-a-vis the frequent discussions with protestants about the Bible that go on and on here.

The Vulgate is a translation from Hebraic, Aramaic and Greek into Latin made by Saint Jerome and chosen as the official Bible text of the Church by the Council of Trent. However, the work of Saint Jerome is irregular: some translations are very good and others not so good. In some cases, he had limited access to important manuscripts of some books. In the last century, a great knowledge was developed in the field of literary criticism, together with the flourishing of archeology. As was the case in many other times, the science of biblical exegesis was incredibly extended, with the contribution of the new sciences, to respond to absurd things that were being said by the Liberal protestantism, which tended to view the whole Bible as a great allegory with no historical truth, even to the point of negating that there was a man called Jesus Christ, or by making him a political dissenter, with the awful theory of the "Christ of history versus Christ of faith". "Oportet haereses esse" (it is necessary that there be heretics), and most of the theology we have today was developed as a response to heresy. Our greatest theologians, from Augustine to Thomas to Ratzinger, spent most of their theological time refuting heresy.

One of the recommendations of the Second Vatican Council was that all this knowledge, combined with the relatively easy access to very old manuscripts and other kinds of information provided by archeology, was used to create a new translation of the original texts into Latin that could overcome the Vulgate4s shortcomings. This work is still in progress, is being done very scholarly by a host of linguistics, history, exegetics, hermeneutics, and, of course, dead languages experts, and is being subject of thorough peer review, including non-Catholic expert reviewers. Amazingly enough, given the technology which permitted airplanes, telephones, and computers, experts have today and easier access to a great number of manuscripts than St. Jerome had, permitting a thorough work, for example, of quotation of parallel texts. By the way, this is the reason why the Navarre Bible appears on a book by book basis: they start the translation and commenting work after the Neo-Vulgate Commission releases their translation, also in a book by book basis. The work is not finished yet.

The necessity of such a thorough work in this new translation of the Bible puts in evidence that absurd that it is for an individual to put the hope of his eternal salvation in the letters of very untrustworthy vernacular translations of the Bible. When a protestant says that "The Bible says that. . . ", it is the case to ask him "How do you know that the Bible says this? By the translation that and unscholarly sect founder made of even more untrustworthy originals, selected with no scientific criteria?"

Another apologetic issue addressed by the Neo-Vulgate work is that of the often repeated absurd that the Catholic Church manipulated and rewrote the Bible to fit her needs. This charge, I think, is seldom made by protestants, because they would be shooting their own feet, as far as the Bible in which they put all their confidence was passed to them by the Catholic Church. It is more often heard in secularistic circles. This translation is based on manuscripts which have open access to all scholars, most of them not even housed in the Vatican museums. Most of them date back to the second and third centuries, and not a few from the first century itself. One of the works of the commission is to expurgate interpolations made by unfaithful copyists, using scientific criteria, the same criteria that is used, for example, in establishing the original text of Homer, Aristotle, or Caesar's works. This involves the computation of the more frequent forms of the text, give preference to older manuscripts and all other scientific criteria, in a universally accepted methodology (universally, that is, accepted by all scholars that work with an ancient texts, not by all sect founders). This way, the Catholic Church must have been very quickly in this "Rewriting the Bible" effort, not to say that she, in the middle of persecutions, was able to establish, without any technology, a surveillance system not paired even by the CIA or the KGB!!! Otherwise, how would she be able to make sure that copyists from all over the Roman world would follow the same "rewritten" version of the Bible? The enemies of the Church have a great imagination!

God bless, Atila

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), May 05, 2000

Answers

Atila, I think that your suggestion about opening a new thread about the Vulgate is most important. As you very well pointed out Biblical Studies have come a long way and still have a long way to go. As I said in another thread I began studying NT greek in order to understand it better and have a more secure interpretation. I am anxious to hear whatever news come my way about Biblical Studies. That's why I consider we all will profit from this new thread. John Eugene, perhaps D Palm and many others will have much to teach us about this topic.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 05, 2000.

To John:

I suggest that you "reach deep into your pocket" and buy the Navarre Bible. I know of no other Neo-Vulgate text published yet, and the comments are wonderful, especialy for the lay man, which is not to be surprising, given that the University of Navarre is an Opus Dei4s enterprise, and so, commited in the first place with the sanctification of lay people.

I also suggest that you buy the spanish ("original") version (I think it is "Ediciones Rialp, Madrid" who publishes it), if you are comfortable enough with that language, which I think you are, given the good spanish answers you have been posting here. The spanish version was tranlated by the Navarre scholars, while the versions in other languages are often old translations. I, for example, own the portuguese version, but I repented buying it, as the portuguese editor chose to put an old (good enough) translation, saying that it would be impossible to re-translate from the originals and undesirable to tranlate from the spanish translation (tradutore traditore). I thing that I will buy the spanish version for the next new book releases. Additionally I will have the opportunity to train my spanish which have become rather rusty. :-)

God Bless, Atila

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), May 05, 2000.

Thank you, Atila and Enrique, for your very interesting messages.
Atila, you started by writing the following words:
"John, although I know that much of what I am going to say here is known to you, ..."
I ask you gentlemen ... please do not assume that I know anything. Go right ahead and write what is on your mind. Yes, sometimes I already do know what you have written. But sometimes, I have totally forgotten what you have written and am grateful to you for raising it again. And finally, you often bring forward information that is absolutely new to me, making me even more grateful.

Please do not give me so much credit. Every day I find out how pitifully ignorant I am. If I ever write a good answer here, chances are better than 50/50 that I had to do some research, because I do not know these answers from my own head. If I had to do serious apologetics work face-to-face, I would struggle terribly, because I do not have a good memory, because I am not very good in conversations, and because I am not highly educated. You will recall, Enrique, that I told you I have had no advanced religious studies at a university or seminary. In fact, I went to a "Catholic" college that required just two years of theological studies -- which were so basic and so boring that they "helped" me to lose my faith for several years.

Atila, I will seriously consider your suggestion that I purchase the books of the Navarre Bible, but (for various reasons) I would probably have to delay the purchase until I retire from my current job (between 2002 and 2007).

I am very curious to know where you read that the "Neo-Vulgate['s] ... work is not finished yet." As I mentioned in another message, I had heard that the work was completed several years ago. I just now found something official that states that the work was actually finished 21 years ago. Here is the document from our Holy Father promulgating the New Vulgate in 1979:

SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS -- Pope John Paul II -- Promulgated on April 25, 1979.
The Treasure of the Scriptures, in which is contained the message of salvation given by God to the human race for Saint Augustine rightly says: "from that country, whence we are sojourning, letters have come to us: they themselves are the ones... which exhort to live well" ( 90, s. 2, 1; PL 37, 1159)has always been deservedly held by the Church in the highest honor and has been guarded with special care. Indeed from her very beginnings she never ceased to make sure that the Christian people might enjoy the fullest possible opportunity of receiving the word of God, especially in the sacred Liturgy, in the celebration of which "the importance of Sacred Scripture is very great" (Conc. Vat. II, Const. , n. 24).

Therefore in the regions of the West, the Church has preferred to the others that edition which is usually called the Vulgate and which, composed for the most part by the excellent teacher Saint Jerome, has been "confirmed in the Church herself by the usage of so many centuries" (Conc. Trid., sess. IV; , n. 21). As a proof of such a great esteem there is also her concern for preparing a text according to critical methodology, and precisely by means of the edition which is still being arranged along scientific guidelines by the monks of the Abbey of Saint Jerome in Rome founded for that purpose by our predecessor of happy memory Pius XI (Const. Apost. 15 June 1933; A.A.S. XXVI, 1943, pp. 85 ff.).

However in our own time the Second Vatican Council, while confirming the respect given to that edition which people call the Vulgate (Constitution , n. 22) and while striving zealously so that the understanding of the Psalter in the Liturgy of the Hours might be made easier, decreed that the successfully initiated work of revising it "should be terminated as soon as possible. It shall take into account the style of Christian Latinity as well as the entire tradition of the Latin Church" (Constitution n. 91).

Our predecessor of recent memory, Paul VI, was moved by all these considerations to set up even before the end of the same Council, that is on 29 November 1965, a special Pontifical Commission whose task it would be to carry out the command of the same General Council and to revise all the books of Sacred Scripture so that the Church might be enriched with a Latin edition which advancing biblical studies demanded and which might serve especially in the Liturgy.

In realizing this revision, "the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly. For this reason Christian biblical Latinity was used so that a just evaluation of tradition might be properly combined with the legitimate demands of critical science prevailing in these times." (cf. Allocution of Paul VI, 23 December 1966; A.A.S. LIX, 1967, pp. 53 ff.)

The text born out of this revisionwhich, indeed, was quite demanding in certain books of the Old Testament which Saint Jerome did not touchwas published in separate volumes from 1969 to 1977, but now it is being offered in a "typical" edition contained in one volume. This New Vulgate edition will also be of such a nature that vernacular translations, which are destined for liturgical and pastoral use, may be referred to it; and, to use the words of our predecessor Paul VI, "it is permissible to think that it is a certain sort of foundation on which biblical studies... may rest, especially where libraries open to special studies can be consulted only with greater difficulty, and where the diffusion of suitable research materials is more hindered" (cf. Allocution, December 22, 1977; cf. daily , 23 December 1977, p. 1).

In past times the Church considered that the old Vulgate edition was sufficient and was abundantly effective for sharing the word of God with the Christian people: something indeed which this New Vulgate edition will be able to accomplish all the more fully.

Consequently we are now happy to entrust to the Church the printed work which Paul VI greatly desired but was unable to see completely finished, which was followed up with enthusiastic support by John Paul I who had decided to send the books of the Pentateuch, revised by the aforementioned Pontifical Commission, as a gift to the Bishops about to meet in the city of Puebla, and which work we ourself together with many people from the Catholic world have ardently awaited.

These things being so, by virtue of this Letter we declare the New Vulgate edition of the Holy Bible as "typical" and we promulgate it to be used especially in the sacred Liturgy but also as suitable for other things, as we have said.

Finally we decree that this Constitution of ours be firm and forever efficacious and be scrupulously observed by all concerned, notwithstanding any obstacles whatsoever.
Given in Rome at St. Peter's, 25 April, on the feast of Saint Mark the Evangelist, in the year 1979 the first of our Pontificate.

[Taken from: L'Osservatore Romano -- Weekly Edition in English -- 14 May 1979

---------------------------

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 05, 2000.

Thank you, Atila and Enrique, for your very interesting messages.
Atila, you started by writing the following words:
"John, although I know that much of what I am going to say here is known to you, ..."
I ask you gentlemen ... please do not assume that I know anything. Go right ahead and write what is on your mind. Yes, sometimes I already do know what you have written. But sometimes, I have totally forgotten what you have written and am grateful to you for raising it again. And finally, you often bring forward information that is absolutely new to me, making me even more grateful.

Please do not give me so much credit. Every day I find out how pitifully ignorant I am. If I ever write a good answer here, chances are better than 50/50 that I had to do some research, because I do not know these answers from my own head. If I had to do serious apologetics work face-to-face, I would struggle terribly, because I do not have a good memory, because I am not very good in conversations, and because I am not highly educated. You will recall, Enrique, that I told you I have had no advanced religious studies at a university or seminary. In fact, I went to a "Catholic" college that required just two years of theological studies -- which were so basic and so boring that they "helped" me to lose my faith for several years.

Atila, I will seriously consider your suggestion that I purchase the books of the Navarre Bible, but (for various reasons) I would probably have to delay the purchase until I retire from my current job (between 2002 and 2007).

I am very curious to know where you read that the "Neo-Vulgate['s] ... work is not finished yet." As I mentioned in another message, I had heard that the work was completed several years ago. I just now found something official that states that the work was actually finished 21 years ago. Here is the document from our Holy Father promulgating the New Vulgate in 1979:

SCRIPTURARUM THESAURUS -- Pope John Paul II -- Promulgated on April 25, 1979.
The Treasure of the Scriptures, in which is contained the message of salvation given by God to the human race for Saint Augustine rightly says: "from that country, whence we are sojourning, letters have come to us: they themselves are the ones... which exhort to live well" ( 90, s. 2, 1; PL 37, 1159)has always been deservedly held by the Church in the highest honor and has been guarded with special care. Indeed from her very beginnings she never ceased to make sure that the Christian people might enjoy the fullest possible opportunity of receiving the word of God, especially in the sacred Liturgy, in the celebration of which "the importance of Sacred Scripture is very great" (Conc. Vat. II, Const. , n. 24).

Therefore in the regions of the West, the Church has preferred to the others that edition which is usually called the Vulgate and which, composed for the most part by the excellent teacher Saint Jerome, has been "confirmed in the Church herself by the usage of so many centuries" (Conc. Trid., sess. IV; , n. 21). As a proof of such a great esteem there is also her concern for preparing a text according to critical methodology, and precisely by means of the edition which is still being arranged along scientific guidelines by the monks of the Abbey of Saint Jerome in Rome founded for that purpose by our predecessor of happy memory Pius XI (Const. Apost. 15 June 1933; A.A.S. XXVI, 1943, pp. 85 ff.).

However in our own time the Second Vatican Council, while confirming the respect given to that edition which people call the Vulgate (Constitution , n. 22) and while striving zealously so that the understanding of the Psalter in the Liturgy of the Hours might be made easier, decreed that the successfully initiated work of revising it "should be terminated as soon as possible. It shall take into account the style of Christian Latinity as well as the entire tradition of the Latin Church" (Constitution n. 91).

Our predecessor of recent memory, Paul VI, was moved by all these considerations to set up even before the end of the same Council, that is on 29 November 1965, a special Pontifical Commission whose task it would be to carry out the command of the same General Council and to revise all the books of Sacred Scripture so that the Church might be enriched with a Latin edition which advancing biblical studies demanded and which might serve especially in the Liturgy.

In realizing this revision, "the old text of the Vulgate edition was taken into consideration word for word, namely, whenever the original texts are accurately rendered, such as they are found in modern critical editions; however the text was prudently improved, whenever it departs from them or interprets them less correctly. For this reason Christian biblical Latinity was used so that a just evaluation of tradition might be properly combined with the legitimate demands of critical science prevailing in these times." (cf. Allocution of Paul VI, 23 December 1966; A.A.S. LIX, 1967, pp. 53 ff.)

The text born out of this revisionwhich, indeed, was quite demanding in certain books of the Old Testament which Saint Jerome did not touchwas published in separate volumes from 1969 to 1977, but now it is being offered in a "typical" edition contained in one volume. This New Vulgate edition will also be of such a nature that vernacular translations, which are destined for liturgical and pastoral use, may be referred to it; and, to use the words of our predecessor Paul VI, "it is permissible to think that it is a certain sort of foundation on which biblical studies... may rest, especially where libraries open to special studies can be consulted only with greater difficulty, and where the diffusion of suitable research materials is more hindered" (cf. Allocution, December 22, 1977; cf. daily , 23 December 1977, p. 1).

In past times the Church considered that the old Vulgate edition was sufficient and was abundantly effective for sharing the word of God with the Christian people: something indeed which this New Vulgate edition will be able to accomplish all the more fully.

Consequently we are now happy to entrust to the Church the printed work which Paul VI greatly desired but was unable to see completely finished, which was followed up with enthusiastic support by John Paul I who had decided to send the books of the Pentateuch, revised by the aforementioned Pontifical Commission, as a gift to the Bishops about to meet in the city of Puebla, and which work we ourself together with many people from the Catholic world have ardently awaited.

These things being so, by virtue of this Letter we declare the New Vulgate edition of the Holy Bible as "typical" and we promulgate it to be used especially in the sacred Liturgy but also as suitable for other things, as we have said.

Finally we decree that this Constitution of ours be firm and forever efficacious and be scrupulously observed by all concerned, notwithstanding any obstacles whatsoever.
Given in Rome at St. Peter's, 25 April, on the feast of Saint Mark the Evangelist, in the year 1979 the first of our Pontificate.

[Taken from: L'Osservatore Romano -- Weekly Edition in English -- 14 May 1979

---------------------------

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 05, 2000.

Wow!

Forgive me, I had not that information.

What I know is that the University of Navarra is releasing the bible book-by-book in an effort to have it published as soon as possible. To wait for the completion of the translation would delay the fruits the reading of the already translated and commented (into spanish) books might bear. This philosophy is being also persued by their (Navarra4s) publishing of their theological books (intended to be textbooks to be used in seminary and theology graduation courses). These books are nothing more than the texts used in Opus Dei for years to form its members. The Holy See granted a waiver to Opus Dei back in the 704s that made their candidates for priesthood free from attending a seminary (the Holy See undesrtood that the formation the institution gave to its faithful, even lay, was as good (or, probably, better... though the Vatican will never confirm that :-) ) as that given in a seminary... given that Karl Marx was the most important theologian tought in the church of those years, at least in latin america, probably the teaching inside Opus Dei was way better that that of ordinary seminaries). Even with this waiver, the founder of Opus Dei (Blessed Josemaria Escriva) never presented a candidate for priesthood if he did not have a PhD in Philosophy, Theology or Canon Law (usualy acquired in one of the Roman Pontifical Universities - Angelicum, Gregorian etc.)

Now, being a Prelature, Opus Dei has it4s own seminary of course, but again it teaches the same things tought to its lay (majority) members. The Navarre books on Theology are their textbooks, which I recommend fom everyone who wants to have a deeper theological knowledge.

God Bless, Atila

-- Atila (me@somewhere.com), May 05, 2000.