Roman Catholic View on Mormonismgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread
Does anyone know whether the RC church has issued an official statement on Mormonism and whether or not it is Christian?
I recall reading a couple years ago that while LDS President Hinckley was in Rome, he met with the Vatican's representative for Christian dialogue. This implies that the RC church consider the LDS to be Christian, which it is not. Or, perhaps, it was just a misguided attempt to be polite.
-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), May 07, 2000
Happy Third Sunday of Easter to all! The Lord is truly risen.
"Does anyone know whether the RC church has issued an official statement on Mormonism and whether or not it is Christian?"
[I assue that you meant "Catholic Church," rather than "RC church" (something to which we don't belong, since it does not even exist).]
I don't believe that the Catholic Church has, at least in modern times, made a public declaration that Mormons are not Christians, but you can be sure that she is well aware of that fact. As a "Catholic Answers" essay begins:
"Are Mormons Protestants? No, but their founder, Joseph Smith, came from a Protestant background, and Protestant presuppositions form part of the basis of Mormonism. Still, it isn't correct to call Mormons Protestants, because doing so implies they hold to the essentials of Christianity -- what C. S. Lewis termed 'mere Christianity.' The fact is, they don't. Gordon B. Hinckley, a member of Mormonism's First Presidency, says (in a booklet called What of the Mormons?) that Mormons 'are no closer to Protestantism than they are to Catholicism.'"
Steve, you continued: "... while LDS President Hinckley was in Rome, he met with the Vatican's representative for Christian dialogue. This implies that the RC church consider the LDS to be Christian, which it is not. Or, perhaps, it was just a misguided attempt to be polite."
The Vatican carries on "ecumenical" efforts with various Christian bodies, and it carries on "interfaith" conversations with various non-Christian religions. According to the Vatican's Internet site, there is no ecumenical dialogue (Christian) with the Mormons. And I can find no evidence of an active, high-profile, high-level interfaith dialogue between Catholics and Mormons. If a Vatican official met with Mr. Hinckley, it was probably a well-founded (not "misguided") effort to show Christian hospitality. Hinckley may have even been invited to the Vatican (while on his European trip to break ground for a Mormon temple in Madrid) to discuss the unfortunate Mormon proselytizing of Catholics in Spain and Latin America.
PS: Cindy Sorley's fine page is http://hometown.aol.com/SorleyCind/myhomepage/faith.html
She is a convert to Catholicism from Mormonism.
-- J. F. Gecik (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 07, 2000.
For a brief intro to some Mormon beliefs, I've read "Beginning Apologetics 2" by Father Frank Chacon and Jim Burnham.
While it obviously states Mormon beliefs in light of a Catholic viewpoint, some are truly shocking. It's a quick read, and well worth it. I wouldn't be able to say at this point whether they are really "Christians" or not.
One thing that the book doesn't cover, but I found out in talking with an LDS co-worker is that they believe God IS God for this universe (and its creator), but that he MAY NOT be the ONLY God. He may have been a normal person himself an eternity ago who fulfilled all Mormon requirements and was given a universe of his own for him *and his wife* to rule as God. After Judgement Day, a faithful Mormon *and his wife* expect to get their own universe in a similar fashion.
My (well ONE of my) problems with this is that there is no longer a "first cause", and God (to me) is no longer unique. Mormons know that God created our universe, but not whether or not he had a God of his own earlier, or where the chain of events started. When I griped about this, my co-worker said, "it's not really relevant from our perspective".
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), May 08, 2000.
What do you mean the RC Church doesn't "exist"? He meant the Roman Catholic Church..which surely does exist. Curious :)
-- Christina (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
What do Catholics believe in when it comes to salvation?
I grew up in the Baptist church in Florida where I was taught that I was saved only by believing in Christ. I was later baptized in which was an outward showing of an inward grace. I was introduced to the Church of Christ at the age of 19. The church of Christ taught me that I must beleive that Jesus died on the cross and rose again the third day, repent of my sins, confess Jesus as Lord and Savior and be baptized for the remission (or forgiveness) of sins. After which, live a good Christian life. John chapter 17 speaks about Christ's disciples and the body of believers. The verses basically say that the believers should be one like the Apostles, Christ, and God are one. Denominationalism/Catholicism is unscriptural and is not supported by God's word. The bible speaks about "one body" (the church) in Ephesians 4. To wrap this up, I just want to say that the Catholic church was the first denomination from the New Testament Church. But the religous world needs to go back to the blueprint (the Word of God). This is the only source from God that the religous world can unite on. Whether its worship, the plan to salvation, communion, church organization, etc., we need to get back to the 1st century church. The church thats in the bible. To find out more on the churches of Christ go to the following website.
If the above site doesn't work go to the site below and then click on
"Who are the churches of Christ, and what do they believe in ?"
Biblically we should be Christians and Christians only. Not Catholics, Luthereans, Episcopalians, Methodists, Baptists, Pentecostal, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, AME, Presbyterians, COGICs, etc.
Believe "and be baptized": Matthew 16:15-16 Repent "and be baptized": Acts 2:38 Confess "and be baptized" Acts 8:26-39 Be Baptized: 1 Peter 3:19-21; Romans 6:3-5; St. John 3:5; Acts 22:16
Baptism is essential to salvation. Not infant baptism. A baby can't believe and can't repent nor confess Christ. Does the Catholic church believe in this? Of course not. Lets be honest with ourselves and true to God's word the Bible. Thanks.
One Lord, ONE FAITH, and One baptism (Ephesian 4:4-5)
-- Derrick Macon (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 04, 2000.
I used to work with a fellow who belonged to your Protestant denomination, the Church of Christ. He said very many of the things that you wrote here. I tried to help him see how our beliefs were alike in so many ways and why he was mistaken when our beliefs were not the same.
I am sure that I and other Catholics here would also like to respond to you, but first I would like to know if you will be coming back here to read our words -- or if you just stopped in on a one-time basis for some quick proselytizing? If you do come back and assure us that you will take part in conversations, could you please mention whether or not you believe that you could be wrong (fallible)?
Waiting to hear from you and praying for you too,
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), August 05, 2000.
Thanks for the response. I will admit that I'm wrong if you can show it to me in the Bible and the Bible only. Not the Catechism because the two are not in agreement with one another. Either the Catechism is right. Or the Bible is right.
First of all, the church of Christ is not a denomination. The church started on the day of Pentecost 33 A.D. in Jeruselem (Acts chapters 1 and 2) and not Rome. Jesus Christ is our founder and not Boniface III. Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith the one true faith which is the Bible.
I will at admit that the Catholic Church was the first denomination that started in 606 A.D. in Rome by Boniface III when it was known as the Roman Catholic Church. The bible prophesied that the church will start in Jerusalem, not Rome.
Isaiah 2:2-3 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hill; and all nations shall flow unto IT. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from JERUSALEM."
Christ said that he will build his church, not the Roman Catholic church (Matthew 16:18). Christ is the head of his church and not the Pope (Ephesians 5:23-24), (Ephesians 1:22-23), (Colossians 1:18).
The church of Christ worships God and not Mary. The bible does not tell us to worship Mary. It tells us to worship God.
John 4:23-24 "But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit (people who have obeyed the Gospel and have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which was promised in Acts 2:38) and in truth (according to God's word)."
Peter was not the first pope. Now Peter was an elder (or bishop or pastor) but he was not head of the church. Lets look at Matthew 16:18.
Matthew 16:18 "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter (Petros), and upon this rock (petras) I will build MY church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
In the previous verses Christ asked who did men say he was. Some thought that he was a prophet or one of the prophets Elias or Jeremias or John the Baptist. Peter proclaims that Jesus is the Christ. Christ did not build the church on Peter (Petros), but he built it based on the confession that Peter made in which he was referring to the "rock" (petras) and that Jesus is the Son of the Living God...the Christ. Jesus further said that he would give Peter the keys to the kingdom (Matthew 16:19).
Then we find in Acts that Peter opened the doors to the kingdom by preaching the first gospel sermon (Acts 2:14-38). This is what Christ was refeffing to when he gave Peter the keys to heaven. Any one who obeys the gospel according to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:26-39, shall be saved. Notice in the scriptures above that the individual most believe, repent, confess, and be baptized in order to be saved. Infants can't believe, nor confess Jesus. This practice is a doctrine of man and is not in harmony with the scriptures. Its not taught in the Bible and it should not be taught to those who are lost. If it is taught, and those who witness it and believe it are still lost.
I'm coming to you in love. I know that Catholics have been taught a certain way for centuries. But these teachings are man made doctrines which are not the will of God.
Matthew 23:8-9 "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, Christ; and ALL ye are BRETHREN. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven."
We are all brethren and should not be called anything more (Reverend, Father, Rabbi, Pope, etc.).
Paul wrote to the Corinthians not to think of any man above that which is written.
1 Corinthians 4:6-7 "...that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written; that no one of you be puffed up one against another..."
There should not be a Pope. The organization of the church can be found in the bible. There is Christ (the head) followed by elders, deacons, ministers or evangelists, teachers, helpers and members. All working together to edify the body (church) of Christ (Ephesians 4:11- 12).
I just want the Catholics to see the truth, so that they obey it according to the scriptures. Now will you admit that you could be wrong? Will you submit yourself to the will of God and not man? Please do.
Galatians 1:10 "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ."
-- Derrick Macon (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 06, 2000.
Hold your horses, man!
I read only the first paragraph of your message and then stopped.
When we discuss matters of this kind, it is necessary to take one thing at a time.
It is easy for you to list fifteen or twenty objections (each one in full or partial error) in fifteen or twenty short sentences. But we Catholics here may have to write fifteen or twenty sentences just to refute ONE of your objections. Furthermore, with God's help, you will realize, after one or more refutations, that none of your objections will stand up to close scrutiny, and you can abandon the remainder. And so, let us take one thing at a time.
Now after you read this answer of mine, please go to the "post a new question" page [http://greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-post-new.tcl?topic=Catholic] and start a new thread with your SINGLE strongest objection to the Catholic faith. We are currently corresponding in a Catholic/Mormon thread, which is not appropriate for our conversation.
And, before you start the new thread, I need to say this:
1. We will place NO restriction on the kinds of objections or argumentation you will be making, except that it be respectful and not insulting.
2. We can accept NO restriction from you that our replies be limited to quoting from the Bible, unless you can first prove that the Bible itself requires this. In other words, if "sola scriptura" is your principle (i.e., that the "Bible alone" is the source of religious truth), then you must prove that that principle is found in the Bible. [Hint: You cannot find it there, so we will not be able to follow that principle. Moreover, NO Christians spoke of, much less followed, that principle for the first 1500 years of Christendom, because it is a modern "tradition of (Protestant) men." And finally, that principle has led to the splintering of Protestantism into over 20,000 denominations, to one of which you belong. Even your "Church(es) of Christ," founded in the 1800s, has splintered into several denominations -- for example, those that allow musical instruments in church and those that do not.]
OK, new friend Derrick, please do not respond here, but start a new thread. And thanks for returning. That was courageous of you. The Holy Spirit is working in your life.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), August 07, 2000.
Hi John and all.. wow. thanks for the kudos on my site. I as one being a former Mormon will have to say the Catholic Church does not consider Mormonism to be Christian because my Mormon baptism was not recognized by the Catholic Church and I had to be rebaptized. There are great articles on the Mormon Church and two excellent books recently published by Catholic Answers. "When Mormons Call" by Isaiah Bennett is easy reading and a great source for those who have seen or been visited by the missionaries. "Inside Mormonism" also by Isaiah is in depth, and an incredibly written book. I will answer any questions you have but please email them to me and I will try to get to them ASAP. Cindy Sorley, Layton Utah
-- CIndy Sorley (firstname.lastname@example.org), November 02, 2000.
Thanks, Cindy, for your unexpected visit and contribution. It was an honor to have you drop in.
-- J. F. Gecik (email@example.com), November 02, 2000.
Wow, about time the Vatican spoke up about Mormon baptism not being recognized in the Catholic Church. Here in Utah when I was baptised five years ago, I HAD to be rebaptized as I had a priest who was very knowledgable on the LDS Church and realized they were not Christian. There are some marvelous writings now on the market by numerous authers and St. Joseph Communications in West Covina, California has two marvelous tapes, one by Tom Smith, a former Mormon who is now in Cahtolic Seminary in Denver and Paul Dupre who was Catholic, left the church and became Mormon and returned to Catholicism a couple of years ago.
One thing I really want to point out that I think is really important is this:
The other day, switching channels, I came across an LDS conference rerun from October 8th, 1998. LDS president Gordon B. Hinckley was speaking. I was stunned to hear this leader of the Mormon Church, ostensibly Christ’s own, carefully detailing the circumstances when abortion is acceptable in God’s eyes. I knew that the LDS Church had an abortion policy in place but I never thought they would want to draw attention to this fact. Apparently if a child is physically deformed, endangering the mother, or the result of rape or incest, its life can be taken even though innocent of any crime. In other words if a baby is burdensome or painful to explain, with her bishop’s permission and a ‘prayerful affirmation’ from God, a mother can destroy her child. One wonders of the dilemma this must pose for those truly pro-life Mormons who see the conflict between Mr. Hinckley’s words and Christ’s own admonition that whatever we do to the least of us, we do to Him. Does God really differentiate our value based on the circumstances of our conception? Would Jesus ever counsel a mother to intentionally kill her child to avoid painful memories? Would His Church? Evidently President Hinckley is oblivious to the compromising position this places his denomination and his claim of divine inspiration. Abortion, for whatever reason, is a rejection of Christ and the absence of love. It is always evil, but the issue is a truth- teller. For President Hinckley to get this wrong, and that no one in the LDS hierarchy called him on it should alert many to question who it is they are really following.
If anyone is interested in sending me their conversion story from Mormonism to Catholicism, I would cherish it.
-- Cindy Sorley (SorleyCind@aol.com), August 07, 2001.
Welcome back, Cindy. Thanks for the info.
You wrote: "One wonders of the dilemma this must pose for those truly pro-life Mormons who see the conflict between Mr. Hinckley’s words and Christ’s own admonition that whatever we do to the least of us, we do to Him."
I hope that this "dilemma" will help them to realize that they cannot possibly be within the true religion of God. Mormons in Utah are well aware of the Catholic Church and the fact that it is 100% pro-life. (I recall that at least one Catholic was recently the mayor of Salt Lake City.) I pray for a great movement of conversion from Mormonism to Catholicism as a result of this abortion controversy.
God bless you.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 08, 2001.
Hey all I have been raised Catholic in with in the last few years really dove on into my faith as a certain comtempory christian song talks about. anyway This is just kinda a general thanks for the information on this sight about LDS because ive been dating this girl and about a week ago i found out that she was a LDS..and while ive found plenty of Mormon sites and info, ive done an excess of research, i havent been able to find out the Catholic views on LDS, and this info has been really helpful along with further reading i can make and also i plan to take a peek at cindy's site after this. Peace Timmy Cos
-- Tim Cosentino (email@example.com), September 28, 2001.
Thanks, Tim, for taking the time to say those words.
The affirmation means a lot.
-- (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 29, 2001.
Just a quick doctrinal? comment. This is from my understanding of a discussion about similar in a class on Canon Law. When the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches rebaptise those converting from Mormonism, it isn't necessarily because they consider Mormons to be non-christian. The conversion process is a graduated process in these churches with Baptism being the first step into initiation inot the body of the faithful -- Confirmation the last. These churches many times will require that the initiation sacrements be redone. One of the reasons is a matter of adult heretical practice. But this doesn't mean they consider Mormons to be heretics. It's simply a matter of doctrinal difference that cannot be set aside. Mormon baptism takes place after the age of reason and requires a profession of faith to key Mormon principles therefore the initiate accepts a heretical baptism and heretical beliefs. The heretical stance on Mormon baptism is on the basic premise that Mormon baptism can be rescinded by LDS church hierarchy and in some cases members have been rebaptised. Roman Catholics and Orthodox hold that there is ONE baptism for the forgiveness of sins. While this is well-known creed for these two churches, it is pretty universal across most christian religion -- most - not all. According to this belief, once baptised you are always in the community of the faithful - Catholic, Orthodox, or any other religion that vows essentially the Apostles' Creed, no earthly authority can take this away from you -- not even the pope or the patriarch. A Mormon convert to Catholicism or Orthodoxy must then be baptized under the understanding that this sacred acceptance into the body of the faithful cannot be rescinded. So are Mormons Christian -- they believe in Christ as the Redeemer -- so technically yes. Is their practice christian? Not in a classical sense especially since specific works are required for actual salvation and there isn't a serious accounting for repentance and grace as part of the process.
-- Michiele Langley (email@example.com), January 05, 2005.
Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. As such it has no connection theologically to Christianity. They may include the name of Jesus Christ in their theology, and even have inserted it into their name in an effort to appear more palatable to Christians, but their doctrinal beliefs about Jesus Christ are completely incompatible with Christianity. Therefore they are not Christian. It takes more than "having beliefs about Christ" to be Christian.
-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), January 05, 2005.