I keep seeing people say "call the government agency involved" Come on people--less government ? but you still need them for petty little things ? If I played " Who wants to be a millionaire" I'd call the Pope, after all he is infallable, by definition he couldn't miss ! We all came to homesteading to be left alone for one reason or another. I admire you all but it is time to quit calling the government for anything. By calling them --you enable them ! One of my worst critics posted a newsletter with a 911 for goats--this was so good ! Goat people know best how to solve goat problems. No one here can solve tobbacco's problems,so don't bother, that will take a war. If we truly make claims for independence--than let us go forth, severing our ties with known thieves and trusting one another. The best advice you get is from someone who has no profit interest in your endeavor ! The man you can trust died in the 1950's

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 07, 2000

Answers

Joel ~ I'll have to admit that when it comes to ranting, you are the resident expert, bar none! But the question I have is how to make that effective? Politics, however distasteful, shape the decisions that affect our lives. I was a card-carrying Republican for many years, until I realized that the Libertarian philosophy more closely reflected my beliefs. Not exactly, but more closely. Democrats usually were espousing more government, taxes, and government control of my life, so I generally did not align with them. However, there are no definates here. I have a democratic state representative who is a logical, and uncharastically (in any party) honest man. He has my vote. Look at the man (sorry, gals, I mean person) and vote for the PERSON who is more likely to turn your affairs back to you! Joel - you can get me going - but I quit for now! Brad, the logical pussycat!

-- Brad (homefixer@mix-net.net), May 07, 2000.

I find this post rather interesting as I have often thought some of the same things. I do believe the more we use government that we enable it. But I haven't quite figured out how to avoid it all together. I ,of course have heard of the Libertarian party, but cant say that I know much about it. Looks like I need to do some research to see if they could possibly make a difference. If it would mean doing more things for yourself, I dont think the population at large would like it. I think they really prefer the government in the drivers seat or it would change. This might sound really simple, but who is the one we can trust that died in the 50's? Just wondering.

-- Denise Hammock (jphammock@earthlink.net), May 07, 2000.

I was speaking of Harry Truman--the only politically corrupted politician that said yes, I did that and ruled with conviction ! Here is my confession--I smoked it, I inhaled it, I liked everthing but the price. Can I run (away from ) for president?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 07, 2000.

I am sooooooo proud of myself for guessing it was Truman!!!! Seriously,I believe that instead of abandoning the current system and heading for the hills, it is more prudent to head for the hills and attempt one last time to shore up the existing structure.It is not the system that is the problem, it is the immoral folks who are running it as well as the apathetic citizens who will not recognize when they are in deep trouble with the powers that be.One look at modern history shows us that a government which erodes the rights of a single group of people can become an awesome power overnight.Each time we allow our rights to be chipped away in the name of "a safer environment", or whatever, we are in danger of having all of our rights taken away.It begins with small things like zoning and becomes a beast.Homesteading people who participate on local boards or state/federal government are in positions to effect good..if we abandon all participation, we leave everything in the hands of the folks who are happy to pave over everything!!!! I too like most of the Libertarian positions....I suggest that Joel and Brad run for office as soon as possible.......I will lobby in Alabama as soon as I get my chicken coop built.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 07, 2000.

You guys aren't going to like this, but the only way we can have less government is if the people of this country exercise the self-control needed to govern themselves. This is what happens, inevitably, with the type of government system we have. It was predicted back in Roman times by one of their philosophers (don't ask me which one -- I can't remember. Bet somebody out there does, though!) The more self- control a people has over themselves individually, the less outside government they need, and vice versa. So where we are headed is totalitarianism, and the only way to stop it is to change the people of this country from the heart out. Do you really think that is going to happen? And by the way, if the militias tried to stop it with guns, it would just come faster -- the UN would jump in with troops to "protect" us! Speaking of severing ties with the government, here is a good story (and all too true). My daughter had been getting SSI for a number of years. (She's permanently and totally disabled, from birth.) I'd had a number of arguments with my husband about it -- I wanted her off, he wanted the money. Finally, I just stopped it. A few months later, it looked like our marriage was on the rocks, and I was going to be trying to support myself and daughter on whatever minimum wage job I could manage to get -- I've mostly stayed home and raised my children, so have no saleable skills. I was advised that it would probably be a good idea to get daughter's SSI started back up, also as she was eligible for medicaid and we wouldn't have had any other medical coverage, the medicaid people insisted the SSI be started back up. So, with considerable misgivings, I did so. The case-worker informed me that my taking her off SSI had been detrimental to her welfare, that they could assign a trustee and even a guardian for her if I did anything like that in the future. I was steaming -- but didn't dare say anything other than a rather acid comment that I thought the object was to get people OFF these programs if at all possible, and she certainly hadn't suffered in any way. The man seemed impervious and informed me that it was an entitlement that belonged to her -- basically I think they are just interested in preserving their cushy little jobs at the expense of the American public. Joel, you can say what you want about my going back to that SS office, as I have been kicking myself ever since. I should have just trusted God enough to take care of us -- He always has. If I can figure out a way to put enough property in her name, or get her enough income from other sources, that THEY will cut off her SSI, then it will be okay -- but I don't dare do it again myself for fear of losing her, or at least getting some very unwelcome intervention in our family's private affairs.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 07, 2000.

Hi Kathleen--it is not likly I say anything at all, except God Bless you and yours ! My baby sister was born with multiple birth defects(open spine),mongoloid and premature. She died at 18 days old. Sometimes when I see something beautiful I ask the sky--Can you see that Christine ? We all walk this planet with our own crosses to bear !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 07, 2000.

There are so many ways of looking at this. I've been helped by the ag agent, the dnr has been helpful, I've used unemployment more than once etc. On the other hand it seems like to work for the government you have to leave your brains in a box at the door and insert book. So many of the rules and regulations are designed for big business, without consideration for the little guy. I suspect many of us are law breakers, unbeknownst to us since permits to do just about anything are required. If I think I can get away with it without the permit I will. Personally I'm a pacifistic anarchist. If it harm no others do what you will! I think the depths of a civilization is inversely proportional to the number of laws thay have. A truly civilized people would require few laws and if that is true where does that leave us?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 07, 2000.

Well, Joel, the government issue has been covered pretty well, but I think you should rethink your phone-a-friend choice for the millionaire show. Actually, as a Catholic, I just wanted to clear up the idea that the Pope is infallible in everything. It's just another "joke" used by misinformed non-Catholics and Catholics alike. True Catholic teaching is that the Pope is only infallible when repeating beliefs held in what we refer to as the Deposit of Faith--what was handed down from the beginning of the Church. This ensures that a Pope can't just come along and change what we believe. As a matter of fact, right now I'm a bit perturbed with some of my fellow Catholics who think that being Catholic means blind obedience (to the Pope, Bishop, Parish Priest, whatever.) That is not what it's about. Anyway, didn't mean to get carried away--just felt obliged to clear up that one little point. Oh, and by the way, I am also sick and tired of the government interfering in our business. About a year ago we went through hell because of the "Columbine Witch- hunt."--Another great reason for homeschooling. But that's another story...

-- Laurie (SUPERGS63@AOL.COM), May 07, 2000.

Joel, I love your rants, and they are so political from someone who believes he is so unpolitical. I'd vote for you if you want to run for president, at least I would know you mean what you say. But you would be assininated because the true people in power would not want you in office. So why don't you just stay with us backwoods folks and keep us informed about what is going on out in the world. To the lady with the handicapped child, the SRS sucks(pardon my language) a bunch of losers who only work for their pay and the power thay have over people less fortunate than themselves. See Joel, I can ant too! karen

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), May 08, 2000.

All right, I'll bite. The whole truth about all of the infiltrations imposed by the government on a "free" people is that we continue to allow it and we will not be able to avoid it, all though we can do all we can to minimize the impact, flat out truth is this has all been foretold. Pick your favorite prophet, there are plenty of them to choose from, although I happen to like the Bible the best as it also takes care of our eternity. We are going to fail, as a nation and as a world. This is not an excuse for those of us who have the inclination to stand up to not do so, but it is not going to result in a victory of the kind we might hope for.

Frankly, I won't take anything from the government other than a joy in the fact that our borders haven't yet been completely annihalated. I resent the way that the "officials" have degraded the food chain, made the dollar the absolute judge, destroyed general education, taking 15- 30% of our income to give us a "retirement plan" that they manage, (if you reveiw the financials on SS, they would undoubtedly have been fired by any sane investor!) lied to us all repeatedly about anything they thought might impinge on re-election, etc. etc. etc.

But the question remains, when will we reach the critical mass necessary to take any real action? Maybe it is happening and I am not seeing it that well. The WTO riots? Or was that just a bunch of punks resentful of Starbucks money? I just don't feel that trashing people's property is really effective. It doesn't bring about positive change. I don't believe that resistance is futile, just that it probably won't come out like we would hope!

We are all practising a type of guerilla tactic by not playing the status quo game. I agree that the best source of information is from others who have had similar experiences, which is exactly why this forum is SOOO good. If nothing else, it puts the power in the hands of the participants, as opposed to the big bad government. Let's keep learning from each other. Even if we don't agree politically we can share on a myriad of other topics and hopefully this "movement" will grow as people have their eyes opened a bit at a time.

-- Doreen Davenport (livinginskin@yahoo.com), May 08, 2000.

Joel, I thought about my response yesterday and know I was rude so feel I owe all the good caring SRS people out there an apology. So I apologize to those few hardworking caring SRS folks who try to do the best they can do. karen

-- Karen Mauk (dairygoatmama@hotmail.com), May 09, 2000.

Kathleen, How ironic. I knew a gal whos baby was severely handicapped. She had to stay home and take care of her and her twin brother (not ill). She had been struggling with SSI for months and they had sent her in circles. They ended up telling her that the child did not qualify for benifits because the mom had a $30,000 investment thing from her old job. she tried to make them see that it was her only safety net,that she would lose nearly half to penalties, that the part she did receive wouln't go very far on her daughters long term care in this day and age, and that it was the mothers money not the daughters so what differance should it make anyway? None of the logical answers mattered, only the numbers.

Back to the gov. I've nevered registered to vote because every politician I've heard gives me the creeps and every bill the people vote away gets pushed some other way and every one they vote in gets held up or thrown out by some other means. The best I can do is take care of my family. Know as much as I can about how to do that and teach my children the same. Look at all the powerful gov. and dynastys of the past...were are they now? long gone. Killed by their ownn biggness, greed, and self indulgance. This one is no better and must eventually follow suit.

I must admit, however, that I am not above using some of the services I've already paid for with my taxes anyway. We bought our first house on a gov. program with no down and subsidized payments. We had no equity in the house 4 years later but land values had gone way up so we made $16,000 in the sale were able to by our fixer upper in the middle of nowhere and start work on it. My kids were on wic and got free milk, eggs, p.b. etc. My husband has been on unemployment before. And when we moved here, not knowing anyone, our extension guy was a good resource for learning what was apropriate to grow in our area, sheep info, etcm etc.

Did we have to have these things? NO. Did they make our lives easier? Yes. Did they make attaining our goals a little easier? You betcha!! They are a tool, like money and computors, I don't care for them much but sometimes they can help reach your goals a little easier. I wouldn't rely on any of them to last forever or really be there when the chips are down, thats for us do do ourselves.

-- Novina West (lamb@stellarnet.com), May 09, 2000.

Joel, I try not to get in on the politics and religion too much here, as I respect everyone too much and fear of offending and I have other sites for doing that enough. But I must tell you that I do wish you would not bring my Pope into this kind of thing. This is a man who has dedicated his life to peace and understanding of all people, no matter what their political or religious inclinations are. I humbly request that he not be used in this manner. And I would also think that people should know more about a subject before one throws stones. I don't make fun of someone elses religion and should think that others would have the same courtesy. A healthy religious discussion and exchanging of views is one thing, but we must remember that to many of us this is a very holy person in our lives. Would you have made such an insulting remark about a Rabbi? I think not and it would have started a small war here. So why is it so many people think it is all right to mock the Pope? They would be called on the carpet for remarks about any other religious leader. I can understand it when it comes from an ignorant person, but you have shown by many of your posts you are far from that. I just expected more from you. Seems like I still expect too much from my fellow man. I think they call it respect and tolerance.

-- Susie*Ks (goodartfarm@msn.com), May 10, 2000.

I wouldn't run for any public office EVER !!! Frankly, I am most at home in the woods where the laws of nature are the only laws that exist. Yes, I would use a rabbi, a priest, and any other Public Fiqure for political satire ! I did not hoist them up on the flagpole--they did that to themselves. Whenever one holds himself up for all to see than he opens himself up for whatever comes his way. Those of us who live life by our own set of rules are not suprised when life occasionally sneaks up and kicks us in the hind quarters. No man is better than any other man an that is the essence of equality. It is my hope in my posts to bring about thought. In making someone think about a problem than you have hope. I myself have discovered the secret to life and I understand it thoroughly ! I'll share it with you-- There is nothing you must be, and there is nothing you must do, There is nothing you must have, and there is nothing you must know,There is nothing you must become. However, It helps to understand that fire burns, and when it rains the earth gets wet and for whatever you do--There are consequences ! NO ONE IS EXEMPT ! (wink) Joel Rosen

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 12, 2000.

Joel, all this time I've been thinking how lucky we are to be living in the north woods where the local gov't is still sensible and thinking of the people it is supposed to govern. But here's one you'll really get a kick out of. Our illustrious county board this week voted in an ordinance stating that unless you are zoned agricultural you may not have even ONE chicken--not one! Even if you have 40 acres-not one chicken. I still can't believe it. But come next election how many of those voting for that ordinance do you think will be returning to office? None!!!Oh yes,and if you want to apply for a zoning change, that will be $200.non-refundable, and no guarantee that you'll get it. I'm a bit angry.

-- Peg (NW WI) (wildwoodfarms@hushmail.com), May 13, 2000.

I agree, with you Joel. The problem is no matter how hard I try to shake this government off my fingers, they are like medical tapes stuck to rubber gloves. I keep telling my husband that when I get old enough to recieve Social Security I am going to send all the checks back. I feel by taking that money it is a tacit approval of the fact that they have ripped off every American since the system started. My husband says but that's our money. They took it from us. I say, no it isn't their stealing it from some other poor sap right now, to pay me. Our money was spent years ago on a government gone berserk. Fortunately I am only 36. Hopefully by the time they get to sending me checks the whole system will have fallen apart and people will realize what saps they've been. Social Security, after all is a cop out anyway. The only reason it exists is because people don't feel they have the self control to invest their money for themselves and earn a heck of a lot more money. My plan is to work my but off until I die in the field hoeing corn or some such thing and God takes me home to be with him. My mom's dad "retired" when he was 70 and worked till he was eightyfive. My dad's dad retired when he was 79 and is still working at eightysix. I say that retirement is a pipedream anyway and I think I'll retire now and work for the rest of my life Homesteading, feeding my family, and achieving my dreams. I have friends who are spending their whole lives at a deadend jobs waiting for that magical day when the can get that old retirement income and finally reach their dreams. No one tells tham that by the time they buy their future homestead the probably won't feel good enough to want to do it. I say go after your dreams now. Don't wait for that magical day. You may find that day isn't as magical as you thought it would be. The money's not worth it.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), May 14, 2000.

this is for kathleen.i'm not going to get into politics or religion ,here, but please don't take your daughter of SSI and don't feel bad, about having her on it. and here is why: i work with children like this every day.so i know a little about that. if i was living next door to you , i probably would take a day here and there and say : go take a day off,run some errands ,take some time for yourself, etc. i'll be here and your daughter will be in best hands.but i am not.so my contribution to SSI ( which they take anyway, if i like it or not) is the only way that i can give a hand to you. actually it makes me feel good, that at least some off my money is put to a use, that i would approve of. just had to get that off my chest. next time you receive that awfull check, think off it as a gift from our family to yours. karin

-- karin morey (wind_crest@hotmail.com), May 14, 2000.