Feminismgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread
I have a question. Who says I have to agree with all women? Why is it so important that we stick together? I don't feel that I have to subject my beliefs to other women cause I might hurt their feelings. Life is tough. I think we all can survive a few hurt feelings to make a better world. This isn't about hate it's about Love. Love for millions of children whose Mommies leave them everyday. Feminism did create this economy. Feminism put more women in the work force which in turn made the country dependent on two income families. I know there are women out there who are single mothers and don't have much choice. Although, many of them chose to get divorced and put themselves in the final position that they are in. Statistically divorced women can't come close to giving their children the same lifestyle as married couples do. Even in single income father only working situations men manage to put more income on the table. These women though are not the ones I am talking about. I am talking about the scads of married women with children who punch a clock everyday. Babies left in daycare from the time they are six weeks old. Have any of you ever worked in a daycare center? Well I have long enough to know that these little ones deserve better. My oldest son went to daycare fro a year so I could go to school(I am not above doing stupid things either). It was awful. I would never ever do it again. I would move closer to my mom or sister. I would homestead with nothing, but I wouldn't put my kid in daycare ever again.That is by far the stupidest thing I ever did and the college wasn't worth the cost to my boy. This is about choices folks America chose to destroy families, and we're all expected to just sit around pretending it hasn't been the worst experiment ever to come down the pike. You start saying what you believe and people start screaming "hate". Since when is it hateful to disagree. I don't hate working women who leave their babies everyday to get fulfilled or to pay for daycare. I think they are dead wrong and I think it is hurting this nation. There is nothing hateful about it. Pretty soon if you say the sun is orange it will be labeled as hate speech.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), May 09, 2000
Little Bit, you have just said a mouthful!
-- barbara (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
You are right, Little Bit. I just sent a private e-mail to sheepish about this, so am not going to repeat everything here, but you are one hundred percent right.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
I made a choice to stay home with my children .We are not well off . When I had to work to make ends meet , I worked when my husband would be home with the kids .If its necessary thats one thing , but how many Moms work so they can have the new car or house or better everything ? Those are the ones that are wrong .
-- Patty Gamble (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Speaking as a stay at home mom, I agree. Speaking as a child of a (at the time) single divorsed mom, I also agree. My mother tried for years to make her first marriage work, but there were abuse issues. Once she wised up, she found herself working the worst jobs and hours just to put food on the table for us. However, she did everything she could, and she had her family to help. She has never advocated going to work just to be fufilled or just because that's what is expected. Her wish for me as her daughter is that I can stay home with my kids, inspite of my husband's rather low paying and high stress job. By the way, it was from her that I got my first taste of homesteading, although it was after I was an adult that the bug really hit. We tried to have a goat (she hung herself while being watched by a neighbor), we had a free range hen (she came with the house), my mother tried to have a large garden (husband 1 killed that by not letting her harvest and by using part of it for his pot plant. He was a real creep!) She cooked from scratch, made quilts and clothes, knitted, crocheted, and has been the best mother in the world. She supports me in any way I need and had taught me what it means to be a real mother. annette
-- annette (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Noone said that you have to agree with all women. I certainly don't agree with you, and I am a woman. A stay-at-home, single mother of four woman. It IS about choices, and some of those choices aren't as easy or as clear as you project them to be. I can't presume to know other people's motivations for doing things, or for feeling the need to judge others, and I believe it shows a lack of wisdom to do so.
-- Rachel (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
My childhood was not too good.SO........ I try my best to make sure my son has both is loving parents around. I decided to not to work outside the house after he was born, because I decided it was important for all of the family. We did not have much money,, will still do not have much money, and we go without many things some people say we need. But I think our family is richer than anyone can imagine. We have a loving home. Not to say we do not have our days!!! We started our son off in Public school... yuk!! What a Joke.All the volience is scary!! To make this short, he is now homeschooled and enjoying it still,, and doing very well. We have learned to rely on each other.
We have a small Farm,, nothing big. Though I hope we will be able to buy a larger piece of land one of these days. We raise Sheep, and have chickens, ducks, a Bunny, cat,,, a Garden,, because we feel this is very important. It helps all of us be responisble for other living things,, to learn to care. I think that is Very important thing to teach children,, that they have to be responable for their actions. We are weaning ourselves off TV,, though I like to watch the PBS shows once a week. Way to much violence on TV, The News channels are depressing to say the least! Isn`t there any GOOD news out there?? Husband still has to work a 9 to 5 job,, but it is alot less hours than he worked when he was in the Navy. We are trying to pay off all the Bills we brainlessly got ourselves into. Have another year to go. You know,, credit cards are more of a Nightmare than a help!! Even when you pay on time,,they find ways for taking more of your money. They are not worth it!! Yes, the country life is for us,, we are most happy here. :O)
-- bergere (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
The average working woman, especially mothers, doesn't make as much money as she might think. By the time she pays for daycare-baby sitting, extra car, up-keep of the car, insurance for the extra car, nicer clothes, make up, hair care, eating out, convenience food at home (possible medical care for not eating as healthy), entertaining clients, paying someone to do your housework (not everyone) etc. Then there's the emotional side; guilt, nervous exhaustion, rushing around, less family time, less friends time, less time for yourself, worrying about your children. This all effects your health. I don't have any kids at home, I often feel guilty for not having an outside the household job. Why do I do that? I sure work plenty hard here. We don't have everything we want, and certainly don't have all the latest, high tech, modern ya gotta have it stuff, but we're o.k. My husband prefers me to be home and with my environmental illness I'd have a hard time finding a job I could manage.... Working from your home is a better choice if you can do it. I think alot of this idea that a woman has to work to feel her full potential by having a career and the break down of the family is public school brain washing...... Thinking back on how it used to be, when couples married they started out in small apartment with used furniture, now more and more they have to have a house, new car, new expensive furniture right away. Why do they do that?.......What people don't realize is that the freest woman in the world is Christian woman that really understands her place with God. Single, if that's where God has led her, Married, if she's married to a Christian man and who both live the Word. And no, I don't hate anyone, that gets you nowhere except sick.
-- Cindy (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
How can you know why another person chooses what they choose until you have walked in their shoes. Every working woman does not choose to work out of the home for fulfillment and to pay for daycare. It seems to me that you are not just disagreeing, but that you are being judgmental.
-- Judy Murray (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Judy, most of us have walked in those shoes, and are "judging" only what we know from first-hand experience to be true. And we have found ways out of the traps that society sets, and are only trying to convince others that they can, too -- if they want to. If they don't, fine, but there is a high price to pay sometimes.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
This is the problem in our society. When is saying something is wrong judgemental? Is it ok to say that murder is wrong? Is it ok to say that stealing things that don't belong to you are wrong? I am assuming one can still say these things are wrong without being judgemental. The line is getting blurrier and blurrier isn't it? Let me ask how far does this country have to self-destruct before it is OK again to say that some things are just plain wrong. Have we lived so long in the politics of do what ever you want no matter how much it hurts others that we cannot see how somethings are hurting society as a whole? It used to be sex before marraige was wrong. Now we have all these single mothers of earlier and earlier ages running around. I say bring back judgemental. Doesn't anyone ever ask themselves how we got here. Is it too difficult to see that leaving the moral values of past centuries might just have something to do with it? We live in a society of people who just dread anyone saying anything that might make them rethink their choices. After the Colombine shooting everyone talked about how bad guns were and how we ought to take them all away, and yet if you talk to someone over sixty who lived in the country chances are they toted guns to school to shoot squirrels on the way. What we have is not a gun problem but a moral problem. We have children who literally have no parents. The have biological donors that they see occasionally. It is no wonder that suicidal rock stars, drugs and peers have become the parents of our children. We have abdicated the responsibility.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Little Bit ~ I am on a time-restricted budget as we speak, and I have not had the luxury of reading the responses, only your original post. Until I have that opportunity, I feel I must still state: "You are one foxy chick!" GL, and I'll be back.
-- Brad (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
As a Christian *particularly*, and as a feminist, I find it difficult to even imagine judging women who work outside the home. The world is not black and white, the answers are not easy, and what has worked for you may not be the prescription for others. How arrogant.
I would rather see women work than have them on welfare.
If the theory holds that women at home raise their children so well, then why are so many middle aged women (who are now the work force you denigrate)so apparently screwed up? We were raised by women who stayed home with us.
It is wonderful that you have such strong opinions. I have mine too, but everyday either at church or school, I can see working proof that helping these women who (may or may not have made stupid life choices in the past) get self esteem, get off welfare, get set up to give their kids better chances than they had before. We should not keep punishing them.
What Would Jesus Do?
-- sheepish (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Sheepish, very well said, and what would Jesus do, I think he would do something to help instead of casting blame. And I am one of those middle aged women whose mother stayed home and I use to pray that she would go to work.
Little Bit Farm, IMHO you can certainly say when something is wrong, but murder and stealing just are not in the same category as mothers working outside the home. And I don't think the morals are especailly any worse than they have ever been, people use to sweep awful stuff under the rug and now its out in the open, and if people wouldn't have so many children, then the world wouldn't be so overpopulated which in turn causes us to have more people doing bad things. The world has always had horrible things going on, so what exactly is new? Let's say 100 years ago there were 2 horrible people out of a hundred, back then that would have been pretty spread out, now if you have 2 out of a hundred, well that could be in a couple of city blocks. And back then it might be months before you would hear about some bad thing that happened, now it's all over the news that day. Again I say overpopulation is a big contributor.
-- Judy Murray (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Couple more thoughts...I think women have been duped into the same idiotic consumer behavior that more is better, same way as men have. Rather than blame feminists, who in the last 30 years that I have been conscious of, have always advocated choice, we should be targeting those powers that be that continue to lure women into thinking that they need all that crap. Sure, women might be stupid to believe that they need to work to get all the goodies....we need to set examples and educate them on how to live a simpler, better lifestyle. Yeah, stay home with those babies!!! Really, I agree! But as individuals the choice is still theirs to make.
I think that originally, when women wanted to have access to the same things as men, i.e., education, wage parity, etc., it became a great opportunity to exploit the economics of it. So the advertisers jumped right on it. It reminds me of the old Virginia Slims ads...showing a woman to be so called liberated, while convincing her that she needs to smoke cigarettes in order to do so. Dumb, dumb, dumb!! So we have women who need to be made more aware of their choices...teach them they don't believe everything they see on teevee.
Nobody has to agree with all women, in fact it's a good thing we don't all agree.
-- sheepish (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Little Bit, I am for freedom of choice. I chose to stay home and raise my children by it doesn't make it a better choice than someone else who worked. Choosing to homeschool or public or private school is the choice a family makes. How on earth is your choice to raise your kids like you do better than someone else's. Whats wholly lacking in your statements above is compassion. Whats the bee in your bonnet about? Did I miss something, or is this just another I'm better, holyier, than you thread? Which is happening more and more on this forum! Vicki
-- Vicki McGaugh (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Congratulations..you are 100% correct that you do not have to agree with all women...I do hope that whatever made you so angry will go away soon.The sun is shining, the earth is warming up the seedlings,God's in His heaven and there is a wealth of wonderful homesteading knowledge to be shared on this forum.....let's all enjoy each other's expertise and draw in the claws..eh? God Bless...
-- Lesley Chasko (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Patty said something on another post which would work here to, cant remember it though,any way I feel know one should deliberatly hurt any one elses feelings, people have to make there own choices, thats how we learn lessons. I agree that it would be nice to have a parent [mom or dad] stay home [works great for us]in a perfect world. But this is not a perfect world, and you never know another persons situation, My mom raised me and had to work full time to suport her and I, BUT I knew she loved me and she always made time for me know matter how tired she was.please guys and gals dont make this a forum to slam people it will cause rifts and this is a great forum, we dont need that.about the gun issue, Tv and vidio games have a big part here i belive, on vidio games you get to shoot at people and watch them go splat, when the awful becomes ordinary we all lose.
-- kathy h (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
I agree with Little Bit Farm. Women have always worked when the financial needs were there, but now women are made to feel inferior if they stay at home. "what do you expect me to do, stay home and bake cookies?" Hillary Clinton. A minority of women have always worked, but when the 70's and 80's came around the womens' movement made women feel like they were worthless unless they had a job. And if you noticed the same "leaders" of the womens movement were well off, single women. Marlo Thomas, Gloria Steinem, etc.. We followed like sheep thinking we could have it all at the expense of our children. I worked outside of the home and when I had finally had enough, all of the women I worked with thought I was nuts. "why would you want to stay home?", "I would get bored.", "my kids would drive me nuts". These are the same women that had fancy clothes and kids in day care and most of them didn't need to work. Their husbands had great jobs. When women finally wise up and learn they should stand on their own two feet and not go with the fads, then we will be liberated. I hope the children can wait. Personally, I think women were more independent years ago. Have you ever worked for a jerk for a boss at minimal wage? I call my own shots here at home and love it. That's independence.
-- Anne (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Little Bit, it sounds like you've been hearing from some pretty hostile people.I am a Dr. Laura fan, and I do think that in most cases, it's best for a mother to stay home with her kids, especially if they are young,at least until they go to school. Yes, I believe in homeschooling, but there are some women who are not suited to homeschooling,for example some are just not motivated or have a bad relationship with their kids,etc. But sometimes we have to make the choice to get a divorce, for example if the husband is abusive(yes I know abuse is an overused word,but abuse does happen ,all too often) and in those cases the women should be encouraged to do their best, not looked down on.I certainly don't think it's best for the children if the woman is just working from the time her kids are babies,for no other reason than to have a little extra shopping money, but we don't always know the financial situation of every working mother.She might be working so the family won't go bankrupt and lose their home, would it be better for them to be homeless? The other side of it is that there are certain occupations that are best suited to women, for example, midwives, nurses, and OB/GYN doctors.I personally think that men,doctors or not, have no business groping around in naked women that they aren't married to.They also aren't sensitive enough for the job,don't have a woman's perspective or ANY idea what it feels like to give birth.Neither does a spinster who has never had a baby, have any way of relating to many of the questions and difficulties that would comeup in an OB/GYN practice.My aunt is a doctor, and what she has done is that she had the children, and after they were a few months old, she went back to work, and her husband, who is wonderful with kids, raised the children.It's worked well for them. Also, I think that every woman should have some kind of a job skill or something to fall back on in case her husband dies, or leaves her, or she has to leave him, or if he gets injured too badly to work.It's nice to have faith, but it's also wise to have foresight.
-- Rebekah (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
I had to laugh when I read that a woman should have something to fall back on in case her husband dies. My husband has enough life insurance that I could live quite nicely for a nice while until I could find another sucker to marry me. ;-) I have no desire to ever work outside of the home. I have enough work to do in the home! I just think in people's quest to have all the material items they can, they neglect their kids. I'm the middle of 11 kids & my mom was always home for us. I would hate to come home from school & have to tell the sitter about my day. I have a few family members that can't seem to tell their kids NO. Because of this, they bust their butt to make more money to buy their spoiled kids what they want. If more people could learn to do without all the extras & spend quality time with their kids, maybe the kids would turn out better. I'm not saying all kids of working parents are bad, but the majority of the time you can tell when you talk to kids or just look at them, which ones have both parents working. They are the kids that are all decked out in the name brand clothes & most of the time have no respect for other people. They are raised getting everything they want & then when they grow up, they have no clue what the real world is like because they have never been taught to work for things themselves. I have seen this so many times. What happens when they become adults & don't get things their way all the time? What happens when mommy & daddy aren't there to bail them out? There is nothing wrong with hand-me-down clothes or toys. My kids are dressed nice & I haven't had to spend a fortune finding them the "in style" clothes. They love that I am home for them everyday. A lot of women don't realize what they're missing out on. The first years of your child's life are the funnest & the time when they learn the most & pick up the morals & values. If you aren't there to teach them those things, where are they going to get them? I am so glad I am able to be home with my kids. They grow up too quick the way it is. I do have a hard time trying to figure out why so many people go through fertility treatments or adoption because they want a baby so bad & then turn around & dump them at daycare. Well, I better get off the soap box or I'll never shut up!
-- Wendy (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
I agree that a woman does need to have a fall back position, a skill that can be marketed to support her family if neccessary. However, staying home and teaching your children what is important is the most important job you can have.
(Abuse is an all too provailant problem. You don't expect to get sucked into it, but you can. If you are in that situation, the best thing you can do for your kids is to get out, no matter what. It won't be long before he takes it out on your kids, or worse. )
There are all kinds of situations where a woman can end up needing a job. But needing a job, and just getting a job because 'that's what I should do because that is what everyone says I should' is not the same. Even when my mom worked, and she worked terrible hours, she made sure that I knew what was important. Family, family, family. Being a good citizen, doing what is right just because it is, and taking care of family first. Because of her influence, and her mother's, our family is extreamly strong. My husband's family, on the other hand, is so casual about their relationships it scares me sometimes. I have told my husband to his face that I really don't like the way he was raised. His mother worked all his life. I don't disrespect her for that, but I don't want my kids raised that way.
When my husband and I talk about me going back to work it is with the understanding that I can't go back until our youngest is in school. To get me ready for that time, which will actually increase the amount of time we can spend together as a family, we have talked about corrispondence school rather than traditional college. This will allow me to stay at home while getting my degree. Yes, I probably will work, but not at the expense of my children, and the influence they will have on society. annette
-- annette (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Oh my. Do I really WANT to get into this discussion?!
If I had to agree with ALL women, I would be in a world of hurts. I don't have "feminine" attitudes or expectations for the most part - although I jokingly wrote in an e-mail to a friend that I am the most thoroughly domesticated feminist I know. I was reading in a women's magazine about this Million Mother's March on Washington - one item on thier agenda is banning guns - to stop school violence. As I told someone else - Sorry, can't make it - I'll be too busy filling out my NRA membership form! Even if a major Women's magazine hasn't got the picture, it's quite obvious that all women do not agree on all things.
Oh sure, I carry some female characteristics - I'm a Mom - not just to my own kid, but to all the ones who walk into my house; I cook, I sew - I even do windows for heavens sake! I also have a degree in agriculture, to go along with my nursing degee. I have worked in factories doing nasty, dirty, hard heavy work, worked in hog confinement operations, worked in greenhouses and on specialty farms, provided child care, did sewing for $$, tutored, worked on a community college farm driving equipment and spraying and planting crops, and now, as Hillary (one of my heros) would say - I'm a bedpan jockey. I've learned from and loved at least part of all of my jobs. Motherhood is job one though.
World War II was a springboard for women to get out of domestic work and into mainstream employment. Some of them must have liked the freedoms that it brought them. I know freedom is why I work for a living - because I refuse to submit to a husband's control. I will always do that which is best for my daughter and my family, I will not ask to buy a new dress for my daughter, or justify my grocery budget to anyone, when I am perfectly capable, and often more capable of making financial decisions myself. I'm happy for you if you have a significant other who is always in agreement with you on lifestyle, but it doesn't happen often.
I was raised by a Mother who grew up in a large Catholic family (Catholic since the 1540's). She had one child - me - though she participated in the raising of several others. She also worked outside the home full time plus most of my life ( and all of hers). She always told me that any woman who had more children than she herself could feed, clothe, house and educate was a damn fool. Needless to say, she and the Pope came to a parting of the ways re: birth control, and while she remained a member of the church until her death, she also always said that Catholic did not have to equal stupid. I was raised up Catholic, although I attend no church today - I can not find one that I can agree with all (or even very many) of the beliefs of - though the Salvation Army and the Quakers come closest. I do pray - mostly for patience and for my patients. The women on both sides of my family have always been strong and unafraid to do what they needed to do to take care of their families - with or without the support of church or community (we were on the wrong side of the brother's war - at least for where we lived!). I'd like to think that we were the kind of women they had in mind when they coined the word feminist from feminine!
As to Mothers working outside the home - I went back to work when my daughter was 12 weeks old - working 12 hours which with the commute ususally turned in to 13 1/2. My husband and I arranged our schedules to work opposite 12 hour shifts, giving us the same days off together. My daughter stayed with a close friend of mine who I trusted implicitly and who respected my child rearing philosophy, and I gladly paid her a goodly portion of my earnings (which were pretty decent money for a factory job). My time off and our days off were not spent out doing "adult" things - we did child rearing - that's part of the job of being a parent. My daughter was potty trained at 14 months, read at 3 1/2, went to state for her 4-H projects, is an honor roll student in a public school, and is involved in many activities in and out of school. I am also involved in her school activities. She is polite and respectful of her elders - and most of the time to her peers. She has my full trust. The person who was my best friend growing up had three boys, and refused to work outside the home while they were growing up. I can't begin to tell you how much grief she gave me for working. Two of her boys dropped out of high school, all three smoke, drink and do drugs, the eldest two married their preganant girlfriends, and none of them have a very good job. It doesn't matter if you work outside the home or not - it matters what you do when you ARE home with your kids. Do I love my daughter less because I work outside the home?! I think not! Would I love humanity less if I did not do the work that I do? Maybe not, but it sure is an easy way to show that I do care for the wellbeing of others. And it really isn't that hard to have both.
Sorry this is so long winded - and maybe somewhat disjointed - I'll close now, and go finish baking the refridgerator cookies for the bake sale at school tomorrow!
-- Polly (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
As a 37yr old Batchaler I think I will keep my mouth shut!!! But I have leared a lot from these post.
-- Mark (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Little Bit, Hip Hip Hooray, a woman who seeks the truth!! Judgemental? You bet, I make judgments everyday (discernment may be a more accurate description) Perhaps if Eve had been more careful in her judgement, we would not be having this conversation today. The mere fact that this "judgement" on your part, (ie:It is better to be at home with Momma), has caused such a reaction reveals the depth to which we have sunk. The following quote may reveal the reason why -- "When you eliminate old-time mothering and the survival lore that is passed from parent to offspring, you forsake education, and raise a helplessly ignorant species". This actually was written in regards to Guineas,(The Encyclopedia Of County Living) but seems to fit our new generation of "Mothers". I believe "compassion" is an overused and incredibly lazy answer to offer to such a profound moral crisis this country is facing-true compassion involves offering the TRUTH. And the truth is children raised in 2 parent homes, with a stay at home mom, do better. I won't offer all the statistics that support that statement, do the research yourself, if you need convincing. My "compassion"is for our children, therfore, it is my hearts desire to see Moms and Dads take a stand for thier children. Reject the LIE- search for the truth. And anyone who believes all choices are equal, must not carry much conviction with the choices they have made. If I did not believe I was doing what God has called mothers (all, not some) to do, I would not bother. Some ways are better than others. And please, I do understand the exceptions, those that are obvious need not be revisted. One last word concerning those exceptions, be very, very careful in your choice of husband, father to be.... It is rare when someone truely does a complete character change from high moral character, to one of lowly character. May the Truth Set You Free!!Gods Blessings!!
-- Wendy (email@example.com), May 09, 2000.
Hmmm - keeping your mouth shut might not be too bad of an idea, Mark. I once knew a 37 year old batchelor who forgot to do that. The words were "I do.". Poor fellow is now married to me! Doesn't talk much..... (tee-hee!)
-- Polly (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 09, 2000.
Wendy's advice to be very careful of who a woman chooses for her husband and the father of her children is excellent (and applies the other way to you men who are reading this). Not only is it rare for someone of high character to go completely to the dogs, it is even rarer for someone of low character to grow into a higher character. And almost impossible (outside of the intervention of the Lord) for an immature man who still is dependent on his parents to be the mature husband and father that his own family needs.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (email@example.com), May 10, 2000.
Hey Lil Bit,
Did you happen to read Richard Yerby's "Creature vs Creator"?
-- Doreen Davenport (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 10, 2000.
No, but if it is based on Romans Chapter 1 I would like to. It is absolutely one of my favorite chapters in the bible.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), May 10, 2000.
It is based on the whole Bible, but we have to remember that even though it is Biblically based it is NOT the Gospel. It is a very good book although I am sure it would be enough to start a riot on many fronts.
Takes quite some time to digest, but your comments on daycare specifically are perfectly mirrored in the book. The book cannot be purchased as the author believes that everyone needs to follow the Biblical foundation of "as ye have recieved freely, so should you give..." It espouses a definite homesteading mentality and a real focus on the training of children. The author is also a very strong advocate of seperating ourselves (meaning Christians) from the world. Extremely against computers, as well. Very much food for thought, but I have a few points that I have to question. (Follow no other Gospel...)
I don't know if you can find this book on the internet, but you could try! I think you would enjoy it and perhaps see some things you haven't thought about.
The only problem I see in the reasoning that you have is that we are not in a saved world, and it is tremendously difficult to operate under all of the Biblical guidelines in this technological and very corrupt world. I am not saying it is an excuse, but people come to things at different times and pointing out your insights is something that must be done in love, not in condescention. It is a definite line meaning following God's law), but hostility doesn't open people's minds. But you didn't even really say anything Biblical in your first post! All valid observances, in a purely societal sense. Thanks!
-- Doreen Davenport (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 10, 2000.
I haven't had time to read all the responses but....
Little bit, you sound angry and that's never a good way to start. However, I have worked in daycares for several years. Some moms had to work for whatever reason and I admired those who were doing thier bests for their kids and focused on them. I also worked in one where most were "career" families and it was awful. The kids had everything they could want ...except real parents.
I to have resented that society now makes girls feel they must "do something with themselves" by going to work. That somehow they are wasting themselves or lack ambition by staying home.
I say all this as a mom who has been working for the last 4 1/2 years. My husband and I spent some time apart so I had to work to maintain a home for us. When we got back together we had some bills that had to paid and commitments to be fulfilled.
But we agreed that it wasn't good for the kids. And when you think about it, it really isn't good for the household chores etc. and all the stress is bad for all the family relationships.
We agreed that as soon as possible, one of us had to be home at all times for the kids first, the home balance second. Not necessarily me but so long as there was one of us. Last year HE stayed home. He did a ton on the house and got it going. We've overlapped this spring for a couple months. I only work 3 days while the kids are at school but we can feel the differance (yuck). In a couple weeks I get my turn to stay home. W eare going to homeschool now and I;m the one with the patience so I'm the one to stay home.
My main thoughts are this: In all things, BALANCE. A family working together for the good of the family. It doesnt matter who works, who stays home, or what you do, so long as you put each other first, use your skills, and work together inn love.
-- Novina West (email@example.com), May 11, 2000.
First of all, feminism did not create this economy. This economy has its origins in the Industrial Revolution, with the disconnection of the people from the land (which was no picnic either since most places in the world were feudal) and rise of mass production. We could produce more than we had a market for, more than buyers could come up with money for. Even Henry Ford realized that he had to both keep the price of his autos low enough and pay his workers enough to be able to buy the cars they made, or else his market would be very small. When that market, too, was saturated, when need was fulfilled, in order to keep the juggernaut rolling, desire for goods not needed had to be created. Thus the rise of advertising and consumption as the modern societal malaise. We have a false economy based on future earning (credit), because we can make more stuff than people can purchase, given how much they are paid/can earn, which in turn is regulated by a few folks at the top raking away an inordinate (and undeserved) percentage. Kind of like those feudal lords again... But don't blame it on feminism!
I agree with the people who have written in saying don't make judgements about people until you have walked in their shoes. And everyone's feet are different. We all become our parents -- generally boys become their fathers, and girls become their mothers. It's a scary thought, but you all know that as you age, you are becoming more and more the person who raised you. We want to be the woman our father loved, or the man our mother loved. We become our parents. And the greatest gift you can give your children is to be happy, be fulfilled, find solutions to problems. Because then the pattern of happiness is in them, the pattern of fulfillment is natural to them, the tools for making one's life better are there. If you are fulfilled by home stuff, great. If you find your soul needs other stuff, go for it (within reason, balance in all things!) If a woman tethers her soul, be it to home & hubby or to consumer goods or to career & briefcase, she will pattern that pain, that chain, on her children. Pattern happiness (which does not mean irresponsibility) on your children. It's how you are that they will be, not what you say or do.
And lastly, the nuclear family is an abberation in history and in the world as a whole. The extended family is the norm, and the extended family is not convenient to the consumptive economy. Do not target working women for the sins of our economic system. Have a Little Bit of charity in your heart: assume we are all doing the best we can.
-- snoozy (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 11, 2000.
I suppose I am angry, but I am not ashamed of being so. I think it is good to be angry when things are wrong. Anger helps motivate people to change. As far as comparing Murder and stealing to this issue I was searching around in my head to try to find something that everyone would agree is wrong. In this age of gray we live in that is very difficult to do. Nobody thinks anything is wrong today. Live in the moment, do what feels good, everythings okay. All I can say is look around. The problems of our country have very little to do with consumerism and everything to do with a sick heart problem. Oh yes you can blame consumerism, but that is a symptom of a greater problem. People wouldn't be so attracted by things if they had their values straight in the first place. "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil". A heart problem.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), May 11, 2000.
Gee,I guess I'm one of those "stupid" women that Little Bit is referring to.I have always worked full-time and my son went to daycare.He is now 22,extremely polite,very well educated,hard- working .Now,on the other hand my stepson who is 15 has a stay at home mother.Let's see,he's ill-mannered,doesn't give a fig about education,stays in trouble all the time(one of those problem children).He lived with us for one year and guess what?his grades improved,he learned what good manners and respect for others is all about and learned that when he caused trouble that by golly we actually belived in discipline.You know after reading all the comments I just don't understand how my child got lucky and turned out so good with me working and everything!Maybe,it's because I'm a GOOD PARENT.It's not about working or not,it's about what kind of parent you are when you're with your child.I know good and bad parents,some work some don't,some are wealthy some are poor.It's not really the the situation that creates the child,it's the guidance that gets them through it.
-- Barbara (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 12, 2000.
Here goes! If you truly must work, do so and hold your head high. You are doing the best you can for your family. But what does it mean these days to have to work? Is it for a newer car, vacation, keeping up with the JOnes's? Seems this is the case alot of the time. I drove a semi across the country for 2 years,went through alot of cities,urban,rural,large or small, didn't matter!!!! All I saw were new cars, new oufits on moms etc, unloading their precious cargo like I unloaded my not so precious freight. Its very sad but alot of Americans have screwed up priorities, and children are not one of them. Money is not what kids need! A kid needs a mom, I'm proud to say that I have passed to my 7 children a strong value system, so far my grands have stay-at-home moms! That is all I could ask for this Mother's Day. If you are a stay-at-home mom and feel the need for support,plenty is available from Dr.Laura. Shes on the radio all over the country, or try her website, Dr Laura.com (I think) Not a day goes by that she doesn't have a "chat" in favor of mothering her kids. Besides only we humans willinglly part with our babes, did you ever see Mrs. or Ms dog, cat, goat, rabbit, horse -- you get the idea, drop her little bundle at a day care??? We are a sorry bunch, sometimes when we put OURSELF first..Give that idea up when God sends you your own miracle, and you'll be on the right track as a mother.
-- Margaret (email@example.com), May 13, 2000.
Dr.Laura....hmmmm.Let's see,she has a radio talk show and newspaper column,but she's not a working mom.Interesting.
-- Barbara (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 14, 2000.
Dr. Laura didn't work while her son was little.He goes to a private school, and she works only while he is in school, she is there for him when he comes home,and when he is not in school. It's not so much that she disapproves of working moms, but of women working at the expense and neglect of their children. Sge says that if they rae going to work,it should be while the child is in school, or if work is an absolute necessity, that grandparents or relatives or the other parent should watch the child.
-- Rebekah (email@example.com), May 14, 2000.
Holy Cow!!! I wandered in to this area to see about some hog questions. I certainly did not expect to find this however I can not resist giving my own 2 cents. First of all my husband and I are stay at home parents of two young children- we each run prospective businesses out of our home as well as self sufficiency in most areas of our life to make it all work, so I feel I can say this - How dare you all make judgements on people. I will maintain my subscription to the magazine but this is the first and last time here.
-- Terri (firstname.lastname@example.org), May 16, 2000.
Hello...Littlebit,Have you been reading Mary Pride?I am a kindred spirit.I did not hear hate,if they can not take what you said and hear the compassion for kids who miss mommmy all day,and pass most of their milestones in the care of others ,it's ok.Did you notice you can say almost anything in this forum,is'nt it wonderful?
-- teri murphy (email@example.com), October 24, 2000.
Hi Teri, Yes I have read Mary Pride. I agree with her on many things, although I was a little offended by her foray into our bedrooms in "The Way home". Her contentions were not in any way biblical in that regard. But I really do agree with her regarding social issues today.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 24, 2000.
Little bit- You are 100% correct! You've got it! Love, Jennifer
-- Jennifer Johnson (email@example.com), October 28, 2000.
OK... I usually don't respond to this type of post, even though I read them all, but this time I feel I should.
In my first life, I was a 20 year old mother of 2 "because that's what you do", and I was NOT able to take appropriate care of my children. I stayed home with them 2 years because my husband said so, and I literally could not do it. They were in serious danger of being abused, so I went to work. Liked work, enjoyed my kids.
In my second life, I was a 30 year old mother of 2 more kids that were planned. I was in the Navy at the time, and staying home wasn't a choice, at least not the right one for us. I left the military when my girls were 9 and 12 and have been home with them 4 years now and love it.
Guess what? All my girls are good people. I wish I could have given them my current self when they were little, but I couldn't have. I had to do what was best for myself before I could do the right thing for them. I had to grow up.
-- Teresa in TN (firstname.lastname@example.org), October 29, 2000.
I'm afraid that I don't have enough intelligence, depth, or am well- read enough to reply to this post in a very worthy manner; all I can share is my opionion and heart on this.Two of the posts that really stuck out at me; Little Bits original post; I whole heartedly agree. I grew up in the suburbs of Detroit in the late 60's/early 70's. Something very crucial happened then....socially...one person in our neighborhood got divorced;and then before you know it every family was disrupted. Really! Not kidding...we ran around, a pack of kids, about 15 of us on our block; and all of our families were broken. We were old enough to miss the day-care thing, but as adolescents and teens raising one another we were all pretty messed up with drugs, alcohol and deliquent behaivor. No...i don't "blame" my parents; but would say that families that are not intact leave an open door to many negative influences. Statistics DO show ahigh %age of gang memebers, etc. coming from broken homes, yes? The other post that stood out...i think it was sheepishs that said something to the effect of women getting duped into the consumer's lie. This is not just a womans issue; it is one that goes all across the board. Man, I sure hate this babylon system, this lack of contentedness; the restless beast that is never satisfied and must feed itself on more. It is the spirit of this world, and when we see families both Mom and Dad working to feed this beast, and letting the day cares raise our babies,what kind of message are we giving our children??? But hey...I really do love and enjoy all kinds of people...and if this where one finds their contentment and peace,who am I to judge; but I will say this, I for one am striving hard to not feed this system. On a related note...I was visiting with a friend last night...she is a female Orthodox priest (ess?) in Australia; definitely a beautiful and unique human being, she said that you would not believe the anti- USA hostility that is abroad; that most think Americans are a nation of self-absorbed, self-centered liars. I think of so many broken families...so many feeding the beast of babylon...and so many times, in the pursuit of ones personal "happiness" or gain....someone said in this post, What Would Jesus Do? I for one think if He were a mother (and I DO believe God has a maternal side to His great love and care---remember we were all created in His image!!!) He would lay down His life....even for that season of 18 years or so...to be there for His family, to protect them, guide them teach them, GUARD the doors of the gate. Sacrifice is the opposite of self-absorbation.
-- Beth Weber (email@example.com), October 29, 2000.
I feel that if a woman has to get out there and work that is fine I totally disagree what are women to do sat on there ass and collect welfare I don't think so show some independence there is strife in everything you must learn that I rather work and have my child in daycare than to be dependent on the state or a man when the man leaves or walfare gets cut what are you going to do then?
-- mimi (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 28, 2002.
Being a feminist means choosing what is right for YOU. Working full time or staying home with your kids or not having kids at all. Whatever. Being a feminist means not being contrained by societial expectations or glass ceilings. Feminism got a "bad name" because of the level of aggressiveness it took for many of those expections and ceilings to be shattered. If you turn to the not to distant past you will remember many upset men who didnt like the status quo shifting. I, for one, am extremely grateful to the women who fought the powers that be. :)
-- Najia (email@example.com), April 28, 2002.
Interesting thread. I think women should work at least long enough to earn some retirement benefits (currently 10 years for SS, I think) on their own--but you could do that before you get married--I think a lot of women really get married too young, and wind up being totally clueless about the real world when catastrophe strikes.
Now, as to who should stay home, imho, it is stupid for a wife to stay home if she can make more money than her husband just because he'll feel bad, or because of the notion that "women belong in the home". Aside from not being able to breastfeed (for which Mom could stay home for), men can be good parents as well. I see it all the time. Parenting is an important job.
-- GT (firstname.lastname@example.org), April 29, 2002.