If my husband does decide to start a handyman type business (see additional thread) it would mean we would once again be without health insurance. To get it privately would cost $550 to $600 per month for just me and him (I've already checked)

We went without health insurance for more than a year on two different occasions during the past five years. He is 55 and I am nearly 48.

Do some of the rest of you exist without health insurance? what ideas do you have?

We try to live as healthily as possible but he still smokes! That is his biggest health problem right now. Thanks in advance!!!

-- Suzy in "Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), May 18, 2000

Answers

Been without insurance for over 5 years. Just got cheap insurance (under $175 for two of us-- HIGH deductible of $2500/ year)through the alumni association of the colleges we went to. Check that out as a source for low cost insurance. Also, the Chamber of Commerce offers some to buy if you are a member. We consider it for catastrophes like surgery or hospital stays. We worked hard to own what we have and don't want to jeopardize it by debts for expensive emergency healthcare. We consider yearly checkups a necessary precaution and gladly pay cash for them.

-- Anne (Healthytoubch@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

My husband, myself and our three children (ages 3,7,9) have no health insurance. We figure if he's injured it will probably be at work or in the car and workmans comp or the car ins will cover that. We spend a bit extra to make sure that we are getting lots of raw fruits and veggies a day to keep us from getting heart disease, cancer, etc. If we do get sick, the hospital will treat us and we will pay them what we can every month until it gets paid. They cant not give you treatment, and they cant make you sell your house or whatever to pay for it. I read alot about natural healing and herbs, and feel that most health problems can be avoided by lifestyle choices. We are trying to make the right choices so as not to compromise our health in the future (we are in our early 30's). For us, health insurance is too expensive for the benefits that we would receive from it. The last time I had to take a child to the doctor was almost 7 years ago. The last baby cost us $3000.00, which is about one years worth of premiums, and we still would have had to come up with 20%. We think the insurance industry is a racket.

-- Julie (juliecapasso@aol.com), May 18, 2000.

I'm a 47 yr. old widow with 2 teenage girls. I have carried my husbands' health insurance for almost 2 yrs. now and it is literally sucking any money left from his life insurance! I'm really torn as what to do! I have checked several different agencies myself and they turn me down cause of "pre-existing" illnesses. I do NOT want to jeopardize the loss of our home and property in any way! I am considering getting a "job", just for the insurance but am afraid they won't have to carry me anyway! The problem is, we never know when we will need it most!! I'll be watching this post closely cause I'm trying to figure that very same thing out for myself!

-- Pat (pmikul@pcpros.net), May 18, 2000.

My hubby works an outside job that has a good insuranse----but, before that we were always self employed. There are lots of companies that insure different self-employed groups! My hubby was selling insurance when we met, many moons a go! Do your home work --I'm sure there are group insurances you can get, far less than what you were quoted. There is insurance from Good Sam, camping by paying dues each year to join. (that is just one example). I had insurance through every organization that pretained to what ever business we owned at the time(like national cosmetologists) then (national lodgeing; when we owned a motel). There are tons of companies--do your shopping. Best wishes, Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 18, 2000.

Anyone who jeopardizes their family without health insurance is foolish. While the industry has many faults, honest folk end up getting the costs past on to them for those who can't pay (you think the hospital just writes it off?). Try catastophic insurance at the bare minimum. Accidents and illnesses occur every second of every day.Homesteads and farms are notoriously dangerous environments. My neighbor fell off a bicycle 3 weeks ago, broke her back, you don't even want to know what the bills are. It would take three lifetimes to pay it back a month at a time!

-- Montana Bob (rgheiser@yahoo.com), May 18, 2000.

Montana Bob, Do you honestly think that by not carrying health insurance that in any way jeopardizes my family? Health insurance has absolutely nothing to do with health, its sick insurance. My health and the health of my family is MY responsibility, not that of an insurance agency. Would it be more responsible on my part to pay my monthly fee so I can smoke, drink, not exercise, eat chittlins and donuts and refuse to take part in my health? Why do we insist on more freedoms and less interference yet refuse to take responsibility for our own behavior? If I get sick, it will be my problem and I will pay for it, thank you very much. I will not take up space in the hospital so it will be available for someone who has paid for the privledge of letting someone else make their health decisions for them.

-- Julie (juliecapasso@aol.com), May 18, 2000.

Montana Bob, must be nice that you can afford insurance...there are some of us that cant no matter what we do with our budget! We have not been able to afford insurance for 2 years, and it will be a few more before we can. Would you like to pay for my family to be insured Bob? I'll let you. We do the best we can taking care of ourselves, thru diet, exercise, good food, and a dose of prayer. Someday things will get better, but until then, we just hope.

Judy

-- Judy (judy@az.freei.net), May 18, 2000.

Montana Bob,

Is my understanding of your post correct? I understood what you wrote as meaning that if those folks who cannot afford health insurance pass on the costs to others as the hospitals don't write off the expenses? Please clarify. I realize that if folks cannot afford health insurance that they are taking risks, however, do you propose a solution to those who cannot afford it? Health insurance is extremely costly and those who are of the working poor class cannot afford it and have to make that choice not by want but out of necessity. Your descriptive term, "foolish" offends. In the state where I am employed, NC, there was another raise in family health ins. coverage, now its over $400.00 per month, for someone barely making ends meet on better than minimum wages how can they possibly afford it? Plus, my thinking is this, hospitals charge outrageous expenses so they do not have to pass on the cost, they milk the insurance companies for the max benefit payable. I was involved in a hospital setting and whenever the intake was noted as Champus Ins., they came up with all sorts of ways to retain the patient as that ins. company, the military, paid the most. And, the patient without ins. pays that bill either out of pocket at a dollar a week or by getting sued, so where is the passing on? If that is a true situation then hospitals are getting double payment. I know I went on here a bit and I do not apologize as its tough in the real world trying to make ends meet and not having the luxary of free health ins. or affordable ins. to protect them and their families. I don't think you meant what you wrote as being critical and offensive, as that has not been the experience on this forum. But somehow it can be taken that way.

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 18, 2000.

When I said my hubby had insurance with the job he has ---that does not mean our insurance is FREE! I had LOST IMMUNE SYSTEM--from being an old hairdresser & working with chemicals! We have the job, my hubby has part of it because we can't be without insurance! If we both worked 24 hours a day for the rest of our lives it could not pay what it costs for health care, if you have a health problem! I wish there was an easy solutition to the problem--I worked for years/ SOME without insurance in a my salon raising my children the best I could-- I have been on both sides of the coin! Like I said, my hubby has to keep his job that he drives 75 miles one way to work, because we can't afford to be without the insurance right now,-- we pay for through his company he works for. When ever I was able to afford insurance I did through groups as it was much less expensive! If you don't have health insurance that is your business--but, I pray you never have a serious health problem! Doctors said, it could have been inherited also, as my Dad, & several other family members have died of cancer! I praise God I have better health---but it isn't always OUR CHOICE, EITHER! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 18, 2000.

We don't have health insurance, wish we did. Preexisting conditions make the premiums prohibitive. We'll be putting our principal assets (mainly real estate) into trust which will make it judgement proof. My wife is a reike master/healer with a small practice and when we sold our other place we bought a Rife machine as our version of insurance. For more info on Rife technology do a search on metacrawler.com. You'll come up with alot of info. It works for us.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 18, 2000.

We don't have health insurance and rarely go to doctors.After my last baby was born(home birth),she got a fever of 102.9-she was two weeks old.I was so scared that I took her to the emergency room,and those people treated me like an idiot.It was really insulting. They said it was normal for a newborn's temp to fluctuate like that! They took her temp(it was a bit lower by then,of course!)changed her diaper,and told me to go home,they were laughing at me.The bill for that? Over a hundred dollars! I know that hospitals and doctors have their place, but I think they are overused,overpriced,and arrogant.Our cousin,who also doesn't have insurance,broke both his arms in a car wreck.It was a severe fracture,and required surgery to put a pin in,etc.The pin had to be replaced twice,after that.He is paying for those bills,somehow.I hope and pray that we don't get seriously ill,and we do our best to stay healthy and to be careful. Not having our kids in daycare or public school goes a long way towards keeping them healthy as they don't catch every bug that comes around.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@transport.com), May 18, 2000.

Rebekah, just remember that exposure to germs helps build the immune system--a true Catch 22.

-- Anne (HeathyTouch101@hotmail.com), May 18, 2000.

Dear suzy- back before everyone became personally offended about this post you asked about health insurance. paying for insurance is definitly your choice but i feel it would be a good one. my husband has decided to leave his rat race job and go out on a commercial fishing boat. the one thing i am begging him to do is keep his health insurance. even though you may lead a healthy life accidents and irresponsible people can still come along. if health insurance is too expensive try to look into disability insurance instead. you wouldn't want to lose all that you have worked hard for. Good luck

-- Amber Van Orden (ambrosia75@wa.freei.net), May 18, 2000.

We got by for 6 years without insurance. We had 2 kids & a misscarriage during that time which we are still paying for. :-( My husband took a job in a factory just so we could get some health insurance. With 4 kids, the doctor/dentist/eye doctor bills were taking most of our money. He liked his old job better than the one he has now, but we really needed the insurance. We are now expecting #5 & I'm looking forward to not having to pay the total bill this time. His insurance is wonderful where he's at with a very low deductible & co-payment. I really feel for those that can't afford it. It only takes 1 thing to cost a fortune! Our first kids were twins born 16 weeks premature. They were in the hospital for almost 4 months with the bills totalling close to $500,000.00. We luckily had insurance at that time too & our out of pocket cost was only $1,000.00 of that. Great insurance then too. You can be as cautious as you'd like & things still happen, but if you can't afford it, you can't & what else can you do?

-- Wendy (weiskids@nalu.net), May 18, 2000.

Remember the 1970's and back farther ? Your employer furnished all your insurance for you and your family. I still get ours free from my wife's employment but, if we didn't I wouldn't pay for it ! Insurance is legalized racketeering. By every definition of the RICO statute --it is criminal to sell insurance. If you want to chance the system than refuse to buy it. You will get just as good of urgent care as the next guy. You can live without it and if you don't have it than it doesn't cost those who do anymore money. The whole thing is a rackett and the rules are set so everyone loses --no matter how many play the game. Let us just call it "Las Vegas Style" healthcare. If I ever find anyone I know getting refused the best care possible because of "money" than the hospital staff is going to find a pistol stuffed up some "holier than thou" doctors nose and we will try Alternative medicine--that is "no alternative" than o treat the patient.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 18, 2000.

Head South or North. Not a solution for most people but has worked for me. Doctors, hospitals, and medicines are much cheaper overseas - maybe about 10% of what it costs here. MOST medical expenses above say, $500.00 per year, are not emergency expenses and care can be postponed. You can get excellent care in foreign countries. I'm partial to Mexico for drugs, Venezuela or Peru for sugery or the like. Dental work is much cheaper also. In south Texas the snowbirds (northerners that come south in their Airstreams and Winnebagos) stock up on drugs and medical care each winter. Although my parents had insurance that paid for drugs it was still cheaper for me to purchase overseas because of the co-pays and deductibles. I've found that the latin american doctors have time to be human. Really, all we need (wife and 3 kids) is catastrophic insurance for the big hits of several thousand dollars or more. But nobody seems to want to offer catastrophic insureance. I agree that insurance as it is today is a racket that drives up prices, damages contact with doctors, and robs us of decisions. The best way to change the systems is to opt out.

-- Charles (clb@watervalley.net), May 19, 2000.

I have been a free-lancer for years and never had health insurance as it was simply too costly for an independent person. I broke a few bones falling off horses and paid for the xrays and casts, etc. My town has a Free Clinic where the "working poor" (those of us who are not rich with good jobs with insurance on the one hand, or on welfare with health benefits on the other) are treated for many ailments and conditions. When I turned 65 they said I was eligible for Medicare and expelled me, but while it lasted, the Free Clinic was, literally, a lifesaver!

There are some really weird posts on here -- Joel as usual with yet another gun threat is going to solve helath problems by sticking his gun up a doctor's nose? Hmnnn.

But there are some ways to get health insurance such as a more balanced person suggested -- through the Good Sam Club -- and didn't AOL just come out with an offer for their subscribers? Does the NRA offer one? I know that there are some policies available to members of clubs or groups. A little research, and chosing the right group might solve your problem! Good luck!

-- Elizabeth Petofi (tengri@cstone.net), May 19, 2000.

well, i gambled and lost. i did with out health insurance. and a few months ago, i got very sick with flu/bronchitis/breathing problems. went to emergency room, was admitted to hospital, spent 4 days in hospital. ( very sobering experience, i really thought i was going to die, i could not breathe ). anyway, now i have over $15,000 in medical bills.

insurance is a gamble. you are betting you will need it, the insurance company is betting you won't. if you have savings, good income, extra cash flow, maybe you can "self insure".

this is something you will have to mull over and decide for yourself. good luck

gene

-- gene ward (gward34847@aol.com), May 19, 2000.

All good answers, except the one with a gun. I've lived both with and without insurance, and have been a medic for 20+ years. Some training in first aid and a good medical symptoms book can cut down the visits to the doctors, Just knowing when to go or do it your self. Couple that with a catastrophic coverage, and a medical savings account. Safety, not doing things that can get you hurt or can reduce the injuries,ie seat belts and helmets, non slick surfaces in the tub,etc. Following the instructions when operating equipment!!! I'll stop my preaching but you"ll get the point. As for getting exposed to something just to get immunity nonsense, I ended up in the ER and in isolation, all along with my wife and child because I was exposed to "something". Last back to the gun, I call mine paid insurance, it has kept me form being injured by wild and two legged animals. It also has been life insurance as it has kept me alive. It is a tool used correctly.

-- Greg Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 19, 2000.

Suzy, I don't know how old you are, but could you join the AARP? They have a decent medical plan (at least from wht I've seen of it 2nd hand).

Also, here in TN we can get health insurance for about the same cost from the farm bureau, as that I currently have with my employer. When I finally quit in a few years, we'll probably go that route.

I wouldn't go with health insurance if I could swing it somehow. I have in the past, and never had a major medical emergency when I didn't - thank God. But in the last 2 years, everyone in my family has been to the ER once, the doctor numerous times, and my wife has been hopitalized on another occasion (and our share of that was $1800 AFTER the insurance paid their 80%!).

I think the NRA offers health insuance too (as was mentioned elsewhere). And check out professional organizations - most of the larger ones offer a grouip plan as an incentive for belonging to them.

-- Eric Stone in TN (ems@nac.net), May 19, 2000.

we can get discounted rates through our local Building Industry Association. Check with others in the industry to see if that's an option for you.

-- kristen (kbhansen@msn.com), May 19, 2000.

Insurance is supposed to be "portable" these days. Is that what you checked into? If not, do check your current policy.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), May 19, 2000.

I agree a good deal with Greg. Even if you can't afford insurance there are preventative things you can do to maintain your health. (following safety guidleines etc) I am probably opening another can of worms with this suggestion, but no one has mentioned it yet. If you cannot afford the tremendous cost of health insurance, you may investigate disability insurance. If you are totally dependent upon your husband as the breadwinner, where will the funds be when he is accidentally injured? I have worked as a court reporter for a few years and know that the injured are often the innocent bystanders. They never seem to be adequately compensated. I'm not suggesting that you get ripped off (which is easy to do). THOROUGH investigation about benefits is called for. They vary tremendously in these plans (as well as the costs). When my husband was our sole provider and owned his own business we felt it was imperative. You will still have to pay your hospital bills, but it does help eliminate concern over day to day expenses until recovery. We are fortunate that our employer now provides this benefit for us, but if we were self employed I feel it would be important to look into. It may be a racket...but it is a personal choice. Personally it makes me sick to see how much we pay each month for very little benefit. However, our choice is to pay it until our children are grown. We have set up a medical spending account and chosen catastrophic type coverage. One other tip...I think I've gone on long enough. If you do have to see the doctor, tell them you do not have coverage or ask for a generic or less expensive medication. I recently had a daughter with strep throat. The first trip the medication was $35.00 for our copay. The second time around (the medicine didn't cut it the first time) I asked if there was a cheaper drug that would do the same thing! Low and behold it cost me $6.12 and she was fine! It's worth asking! Some medicines can't be substituted, but some can. Also, they may have samples that they will give you if they know you are a paying customer! Good luck with your decision!

-- Jennifer (KY) (acornfork@hotmail.com), May 19, 2000.

I haven't had ins. for 13 years. When I was housecleaning, I worked for a few doc's who treated me 'pro-bono' (free). The clinics in my area are great, and it's a shame that more people without insurance, don't know that if they are treated in a hospital, that accepts ANY county, state or federal aid, they reduce your bill to what medicare/medicade would have been charged, usually HALF the original bill, PLUS-you can make interest free payments-but you must ASK! They won't tell you.

-- Kathy (catfish@bestweb.net), May 19, 2000.

First, I would like to apologize for some of the wording in my first response. I was being insensitive. Please understand, minutes before I made that post, I had just emptied my pockets into a tin can with a picture of a 13 year-old boy who has been burned over 60% of his body. His parents have no insurance and now they are forced to collect change in cans around town. I know of way too many of these heart-wrenching stories. Personally, our family places our priorities as food, shelter, then health insurance .... We drive an old car etc., we make do in many other areas, health insurance is something we are not willing to take the chance without. BTY, while costs for older folks can and do get outrageous, my insurance man said, two non-smoking 30 year-olds with a couple of young kids should cost no more than $200 a month for catastrophic coverage. Or, less than $100 for the kids. If that's still too much money, our State offers assistance to make sure children get coverage, perhaps other states offer assistance?

-- Montana Bob (rgheiser@yahoo.com), May 19, 2000.

I saw on 60 Minutes a doctor who would offer you free healthcare for life if you followed his advice. No smoking, exercise and diet. You came to his gym and workout 2 times weekly and followed a diet proposed by him. The cost was 15.00 a month and included a yearly physical and 6 month checkups. You could also come in for any emergency. Hospitilazation costs were not covered. He planned to open clinics nationwide. This might be someting to check on. Question--which of you would---when faced with the death of a loved one because the greedy doctor wouldn't treat the person because of MONEY--would not try my "alternative medicine" to save their life ? We are a nation born in violence, perpetuated by violence and in the end result of any situation, and in reality violence is all we truly understand. Usually the phrase--I want to find a peaceful answer--can be translated to--I'm scared and I'm not willing to die over this. We are not, never have been, and never will be "civilized" people. We are ruled solely by emotion !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 19, 2000.

I have rarely had insurance since I was no longer elligible to be on my mother's insurance plan. We're talking 21 years ago. Occasionally , when I was feeling rich, I'd sign up for Group Health, but I almost never needed it (by the grace of Allah...) And whenever I did, they usually didn't know what was wrong or what to do about it. The whole system infuriates me, and anger just makes you sick anyhow. One time I did go in for a possible broken foot, having dropped an enormous rock on it. They put it in a splint for the weekend, then the x-rays showed nothing and I threw away my crutches (halleluja...) Some months later, they contacted me with a letter alleging that the visit to the emergency room had been for a pre-existing condition! I told them off, said I was too busy for such bureaucratic nonsense, and if they had read the actual medical report, they would have known the details and not wasted the paper contacting me. I let the coverage lapse after a time. I had an appendectomy without insurance. That cost $2500 in 1985. I was recently pregnant for a time, and thought I'd better get some insurance in case of cesaerian. I found that in Washington State NO insurance provider will take new individual accounts. NONE. So even if I was willing to pay the money, no insurer would sign me up. I prefer to study homeopathy. I have found it to be very effective for myself and for others, besides being an intellectual passion for me. I prefer to source and pay for my own health CARE, as opposed to medical INSURANCE. I have seen and read much about insurance policies costing a lot & providing little. It is my contention that they really only cover their own backsides.

The most important thing your husband can do for you both is to quit smoking. My husband quit 32years of 2 packs a day (it was a prerequisite for us getting together.) Homeopathy helped him a lot. And he said if he had known how much better he would feel by not smoking, he would have found the willpower years ago. Of course, as he says, the cigarette did the smoking -- he was just the sucker...!

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), May 19, 2000.

What an intereseting bunch of answers!!! Yes---insurance is SUPPOSED to be portable nowdays... IF you can pay the increased big premiums!!!

We are going to make some calls Monday and look into getting some kind of "catastrophic" covereage where the deductible would be high but where they would cover if you had major surgery or something like that....

The newspaper today said Alabama residents are paying the second highest insurance premiums in the nation!!! And I believe it!

My husband had an emergency apendectomy the last week in October and the bills from that were unreal....but the insurance paid basically all of it but $100.

But if we can't pay the $500 to $600 per month for insurance any more, we'll have to explore other options. I AGREE that the number one thing he needs to do is stop smoking but I don't know how to make him realize that. I thought he'd realized that after he almost died with his appendix and all the doctors had a fit at how much he smokes....PLUS I have chronic allergies and I'm not supposed to be around smoke.....even if he goes outside to smoke it's still on his clothes, hair etc. when he comes back in....

He is 55 and I am almost 48.

-- Suzy in Bama' (slgt@yahoo.com), May 20, 2000.

I was just reading some of the newer posts and I suddenly remembered something a ins. agent mentioned to us many yrs ago when we were shopping for health ins. He mentioned this huge data base the government kept in the midwest pertaining to all the health issues a individual had or has. Well I was sort of skeptical but then I read an article in the Sunday paper about this. I hate the fact that the government and whatever or whoever else has access to my personal information. Just another case of big brother watching!

-- Bernice (geminigoats@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

no one else has mentioned it, so i will. what about life insurance? i am lucky that the job i have, one of the benefits is health insurance. i pay nothing for it. not bragging, just telling. yet no one has said anything about life insurance. i am a 32 year old male and have several life insurance policies. i don't think it is a waste of money. if something should happen to me, i would like to think that my wife and two year old son won't have financial problems. if you have a $50,000 life insurance policy don't think that will do it. if you make $10,000 a year at your job and die, what will your family do after 5 years? and don't think it won't happen to you. last weekend in our area, a 29 year old male got pinned under his dump truck and died from a broken neck. i understand sometimes you just don't have the money to pay for insurance let alone the other bills. but please keep in mind that you are taking a gamble, whether it's your health, life, home, whatever.

-- michael w. smith (kirklbb@penn.com), May 21, 2000.

Slowly, ever so slowly, I begin to see God's purpose in my meager stupid existence. I raise my head to the Heaven's, and cry out,"of what value am I, on this earth? And suddenly, without warning, I am gifted with a bit of knowledge that may help someone else. On Health Care: Back in the 40's, Congress passed a law. They gave (and continue) Federal Funding to hospitals and Clinics who had to swear that in exchange, they (hospital, clinic) would freely treat those in need of medical care in their neighborhood who met criteria. The Act was called The Hill Burton Act. I was gifted with this information. I give this Gift to you. You have a computer and a quest for knowledge, you GO FOR IT!

-- My Story (andI'm@stickingtoit.com), May 21, 2000.

There are some organizations which get a group of people together and they pay each others health bills. The one I remember is called the Brotherhood newsletter. As best I recall the cost is around a hundred or two a month. You just send your bills to the newsletter and they distribute the bills to the other members. I don't recall much of the details but I'll look around and see if I can find them on the net. I think there are other groups like that also.

-- Mike (AR) (mike.jennings@eritter.net), May 22, 2000.

I would like to weight in on the topic. I am a Family Practitioner and have some experience in both patient care and in medical economics. Weither you get insurance or not is a very personal choice. The variables to consider are as diverse as the number of people asking the question. Each state has different rules to consider and Im not familar with those ourside of my area. The Hill Burton act does require a facility to provide care to those who need it and, in theory, they are not suppose to attempt to recover the costs. Thats the theory. Reality is sometimes different. Each facility has built into its budget a percentage for "nonreoverable funds" or bad debts. It ranges from 1-2 % to 8-10% depending on the area and the number of bad debts they have. Yes, it is also true that the bad debt cost is passed on to other consumers either through higher charges to the insurance companies or to the patients themselves. Its an attempt to spread the risk which is what insurance is all about. One other point to consider. Your husband is entering the age group when, statistically, his odds of having "something go wrong" begin to increase very rapidly. The fact that he smokes makes the odds go up very quickly. Your age is not significant yet for contributing to "problems" however in the mid to late 50s your risk of random or lifesytle related problems will also rise. Your husbands new profession will potentially put him at risk also. Homestaders and farming families have a higher risk due to the lifestyle, but that doesnt stop me from having a farm. Lifestyle choices play a very important role in being healthy but it is the random acts and accidents that take the largest family health care dollars. Perhaps insurance for catastrophies is the way to go. Perhaps voting for the candidates that will give universal coverage is the answer. Despite what you hear about universal coverage in Europe, it is quit comprehensive and polls show the vast majority of people prefer that system. Currently the USA ranks behind every other industrial nation except South Africa in its ability to deliver comprehensive preventative care to its citizens. Maybe its time for a change.

-- Illey McCready (mccread@gw.lbcc.cc.or.us), May 24, 2000.

We just inrolled in the Tennessee Rural Health Plan(TRH) and are going to pay $350 a month for insurance. (Husband, Myself, 3 kids 6,3,2) Alot of money. Checked into catastrophic insurance and the agent reminded us to take into consideration the fact we'll get the drug card also. What if alternative medicine didn't help and you needed medicine on a long term basis? Something to take into consideration. My husband was burned, had a medical bill of close to $750,000-- big burden to carry without insurance, we were so thankful for our insurance so we would never take the chance.

-- Mary in TN (Belcherfam5@aol.com), May 24, 2000.

I don't have insurance and cannot afford to have it either. I did have work supplied insurance about 12 years ago, but when I lost the job I lost the insurance. Even when I had it I rarely used it though. I try to eat reasonably well, take good vitamin and mineral suppliments, drink lots of water and so forth. Also I do not smoke or drink alcoholic beverages. I do go for a checkup every couple of years even if I feel OK. I do on occasion go to the doctors for something which seems beyond my ability to deal with or which I can't figure out what it is. The frustrating thing to me is most of the time when I go see the doc I know what the problem is but just don't have what is needed to deal with it, such as antibiotics and the like. Of course now I'm more aware of the abilities of herbs and coloidal silver and the like. I delt with what I believed to be meningitis back in May of 98. I used golden seal, ibuprophen and lots of water and here I am. I actually was more afraid of going to the hospital, I was actually afraid if I went there I wouldn't be here now. Of course today I would use coloidal silver as soon as I relized what is going on. If you take "good care" of yourself, such as eating well, drinking lots of water and being as careful as you can you'll most likely be able to handle the no insurance problem. Also if you're concerned for your property you can put everything into a "living trust" and it can't be touched. (at least we can up here in MA) That's about all I can say on the matter.

-- Bob Johnson (backwoods_bob_2000@yahoo.com), May 25, 2000.

First, I haven't had insurance since my hubby lost his job due to a back injury (5 yrs. ago). Second, the brainwashing our society goes through about not having insurance really freaked me out when we lost ours. Third, I've actually been healthier since I haven't had insurance than when I did!!!!

1. I started educating myself a lot more about my own health. 2. We started taking daily vitamins and take extra C when one of us gets a flu bug or cold. 3. If anything were serious we have enough friends who were medics, etc. that we could tell if anything serious was going on whether or not it warrented emergency room visit or not. 4. We got a survival book that goes indepth into emergency triage. 5. Since I found out that I can get antibiotics at the pet store, and treat recurring yeast problems (which the doctor said were resistant) with vinegar I don't need the stupid doctors. 6. For all problems, including a serious burn, I have done all the crisis demands with prayer as the first item on the agenda. God has kept us healthy. I used to be so sickly too!!!!

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), January 02, 2001.

Hey Suzy,

Got your email and would like to respond; however, since most people aren't aware of this information I thought I would like to post it.

Vocational Rehabilitation is an agency that not only retrains people, but they also help you maintain employment when the situation is fixable and it will help you keep your job. For instance, they provided some surgery my husband needed, a pair of eye glasses for a neighbor, a special chair for a computer user with a bad back, etc.

Most people aren't aware of this fact. If you have a job, and you need help in keeping your job through medical or special tools or equipment they can help you. Just be willing to jump through some hoops. There is no instant gratification.

Hope this helps somebody.

-- Stephanie Nosacek (possumliving@go.com), January 05, 2001.

I worked for 5 years with a job that had good health insurance. $15.00 co-pays and $50.00 ER costs. I recently switched careers and they are only going to pay for my health insurance now. I paid $38.00 a week at my last job. Now even though I don't have to pay for mine anymore it leaves my wife and stepson out in the cold. The new company will cove her but for a cost of more that what my last job cost for the whole family. So for the last 2 weeks we've not had insurence cause my coverage doesn't even start for 90 days. Can you live without it. well if i get sick and they is no supplimential payments for while i am in a hospital, who will feed my family and even more pay our bills. Live without health insurance is like living without a budget. you'll be broke before you know it.

-- shawn graham (shawner196@aol.com), March 03, 2001.

I might as well not have it for all the good it does me..Its Champus and no doctors or dentist in this area want to handle it..the hospitals accept it of course, but its not the hospitals that I need thankfully. The physicians want me to pay the fee and then send in the claim myself for reimbursement..I should charge them for being their secretary!!

-- Lynn(MO) (mscratch1@semo.net), March 04, 2001.

I have worked at two different jobs for the past 9 years that I really don't like just to keep the insurance. Both corp jobs with great benefits and great insurance, but these last nine years I have been sicker than I was in all the previous years put together! And yes, I did quit smoking, keep an eye on the weight, etc. I think it is the stress from the job that keeps my immune system in a constant state of high demand. But as long as I have a mortgage and a child in school I have to keep working to keep the insurance. My ex was in a car wreck several years ago and if I had not had insurance through my job we would have lost the farm. His bills were 980,000 Plus and even if you have insurance through your car insurance, it only pays up to what the policy's stated amount. One nice thing about the whole situation was that the hospital told me that anything the insurance company was not going to pay, they would write off as they had a fund set aside for situations like that. I think the write off amount was a little over 80,000. There was no way I could have paid the bill even if I lived and worked to be a hundred. If you have a farm bureau in your state, you can purchase health insurance through them. I believe they offer a catastrophic policy. I don't think it is wise to not have any insurance, but I do understand that due to the high costs, many of the countrysiders can't afford it. In Georgia, when a person changes jobs, if they have had insurance for the previous year at another job, the new job cannot decline to cover them for a pre-existing condition. This is a relatively new law that was passed about four years ago. It stops insurance companies from denying coverage to those who have pre- existing conditions. Also, many people wouldn't change jobs because they were afraid of losing their insurance. This law enabled many to change jobs. I would check with the farm bureau and other organizations, like Woodman of the World, who offer group policies. (By the way, everyone nagged me to stop smoking for years...it was only when I got sick and tired of it, that I stopped). It wasn't the hardest thing in the world to do, but even now occassionally I still want to smoke, but then get busy and forget about it). Good luck with your hubby, if he only knew how much better he would feel, he might be inclined to quit!).

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), March 04, 2001.

MY WIFE AND I HAVE 9 CHILDREN AGE 16 TO 26 NEVER BEEN SICK BECAUSE WE BEIVE AND TRUST IN JESUS AND HIS WORD

D

-- BENJAMIN JOHNSON (BAJ3588@YAHOO.COM), April 05, 2001.

The big question is are you the type that runs to the doctor for every little thing (some do). If you don't, get catastropic insurance. The smoking is the big problem. Please, please, stop smoking! If you are poor, you can usually qualify under some state program. As I said on another thread, there is only so much that people can try to get from you, if you have very little to start with. Part of what is wrong with insurance is that they ask all the questions about your past health and what your family died of. You can't choose your parents, so any family medical history shouldn't be considered. However, if you drink, smoke, or do drugs, that SHOULD be considered, because we know these things are not good to do. Just my .02. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

GENE WARD, very very good point! When you buy helth insurance, you are betting you will need it, and the insurance company is betting you wont. Guess which one is making a profit?

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Exactly, daffodyllady. One guy in this thread pointed to a $15,000 medical bill as a reason for having insurance.

At $600 a month it would take just slightly over 2 years to get to $15,000.

Catastrophic insurance is one thing, but as many posters have pointed out, that's hard to come by.

And when's the last time you saw a poor insurance salesman? LOL! It's all a crock. And now big corporations own drug manufacturers, insurance providers, AND HMOs. Follow the money ...

We need nationalized health service and an end to medical school class size limitations.

I'd settle for the latter - competition in the profession would go a very long way towards solving the pricing dilemma. The status quo selects for greed.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

Almost everyone can get insurance through some group plan, it just takes time to find the right group. It could be a church, professional or alumni association, union, veterans etc. If you are running a legit business (as in you get a license, resale number if necessary, pay taxes etc.) you might be able to get insurance through places like Costco. I only say the above because a lot of people try to do it under the table to avoid the taxes and then they can't take legal deductions like those for health insurance costs, which you would be entitled to.

Another issue that someone raised is life insurance, perhaps in lieu of health insurance. You think the hospital is not going to try to go after the surviving spouse or children for the money? Think again. I will try to say this nicely. How much is it costing you and your husband for cigarettes each month? $3 per pack a day? 3 x 30 is $90 that you could be spending on a catastrophic plan instead.

I personally think that laws should be changed so that say if your grown kids have insurance, or some single person wants to "adopt" someone (a sibling or even a homeless person) who does NOT live with them for healthcare purposes only, they can add one or two people onto their policy for an extra $20 each a month. All health cards would be sent to the main payer's address, and they would take care of getting the new cards to their "adoptees". That way money is there to pay these costs, and you don't have someone getting pro bono care on one side, and the middle class (who really pay all the bills) paying $3 for an aspirin in the hospital. In many company plans a Mom and Dad with two kids pays the same as a Mom and Dad with 6 kids, so why can't we add one or two (within reason) adults? Just my thoughts, and I truly apologize for being blunt. Also, another place where you might look for info/ask questions is at www.stretcher.com which is The Dollar Stretcher website. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 25, 2001.

Y'know, GT, its been my experience that people who have insurance, and haven't had to be without it for years, are very dense when it comes to understanding why people who DON'T have it, don't have it. And pretty unsympathetic to boot. Sure hope you never lose your nice job and benefits.

I've been without insurance for 3 years now. It's not that I can't GET it - I can't AFFORD it. You "can" get a policy - if you have $500 or $600 of disposable income a month. I "could" have COBRA'd my policy when I quit my last job - if I had $638 per month to pay for it. And it would have expired after 2 years. E.g., I would have had to go find some more insurance from somewhere else after that.

$90 a month doesn't go a real long way towards health insurance.

So far I have treated myself for a lymph infection and walking pneumonia - its amazing what kind of antibiotics you can come up with in a fish store (don't bother with erythromycin fish meds, they are in the wrong form to do humans any good).

And cow boluses can be used to, though they don't taste real good after you've chopped them up into small enough pieces to swallow.

Why did I do that? Because I have worked only sporadically since I moved out here and couldn't afford $70 to see a not-a-doctor at a local clinic. (Not-a-doctor = "nurse practitioner" or some other para professional)

This is not by choice. This is the way the economy is out here. It's bad. Welcome to the Heartland.

In fact I have a year old infected spider bite that I DON'T know how to treat that will just have to wait a few more months. Some things are beyond my ability to even attempt to treat myself, and I just have to live with it.

Why? Not because I'm stupid. Not because I'm lazy. Not because I'm foolish.

Because I'm a member of the working poor. Because I have worked hard, saved enough money to own my land, had enough in savings to mostly build my own home with my own to hands. Because I was thrifty and conscientious enough to stay out of debt.

If I were dirt poor, had nothing, lived off the government, THEN I might qualify for some (usually low quality) health care.

If I would "come to my senses", chuck the homesteading thing, and go back into the rat race, I would have insurance out the ears again. Of course I'd be miserable and depressed like most of the other corporate zombies, but I'd be insured for it.

Of the 3 years that I've lived here, there have been only 3 months in which I made $600 or more. I don't think I've hit the $5k mark for the year at any time since I've been here.

GT, this is what life is like for an awful lot of people. A minimum wage job is going to pay GROSS about $800 a month, probably taking home about $600 after taxes and social security.

That's assuming your minimum wage job is 40 hours, which is unlikely.

Out of that $600 the minimum wage earner has to pay living expenses. It's tough to find a place where you can rent a decent (just clean and safe, not fancy) apartment for less than $200. Let's hope to god this person doesn't have kids or a family to take care of. Even around here a 3 bedroom house rents for $400 to $500 a month.

But lets assume this particular worker bee is single. OK, after rent we're down to $400. Now there's utilities - water/gas/electric to pay for (we're not even going to let the poor guy have a phone, just the necessities now). There's $100 or more a month gone. Or more - this past winter some people had $400 and $500 heating bills. For one month. But lets assume he can get by with $100 for all that, every month. Maybe he lives in Florida ...

Anyway, now we're down to $300. Now the guy needs a car. Unless he/she is lucky and parents or relatives provided a car some time fairly recently, its tough to find decent transportation for less than $1500. I know, I've tried. If you find something that costs less than that you're almost guaranteed another $1000 or more in repairs, much sooner than you think or can afford.

But let't let our poor victim have a break. They already own a car. It's old, it needs some work, but it runs pretty reliably. Insurance on that vehicle - even MINIMUM insurance - is going to run somewhere between $300 a year (if our driver is older) to $1000 a year (if our driver is a young person just starting out).

Better budget at least $50 a month for auto insurance. That's a necessity, you can't get tags in any state in the union without it.

We are now down to $250.

Our victim needs gas to get to and from work. $30 a week is not unreasonable, given the price of gas. $220 is left ...

I'm not even going to try to apportion out that pitiful remaining $220. We haven't considered automotive repairs, tires, oil, clothing, food. Forget about entertainment, or saving to buy land, IRAs, savings accounts, or emergency funds.

We are already so far below the level of what is need to pay for health insurance its not even funny - and that's ASSUMING this poor person gets 40 hours per week. Around here, and in many rural areas, its tough to light into a full time job at ANY wage.

That's the real world, GT. I guess its nice for those folks that don't have to live in it, but the rest of us have to deal with it as we can.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

Look, I have gone long periods (over 4 years) without health insurance. And I agree that most working poor can't pay for it. But please don't call a Nurse Practitioner a 'paraprofessional". She/he works hard to be accreditted with their skills. they often cost less but perform the same types of diagnosis function as doctors.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), June 25, 2001.

I'm sorry your offended, but given a nurse practitioner can't practice without the supervision of a doctor, I considered calling such a person a "para professional" to be one step up from merely being a nurse.

If you don't like the term, well, I guess you could suggest some other term. And however hard such a person has worked, they're STILL not a "real doctor" and I resent paying the same fee to be seen by "ONLY" the nurse practitioner as I would be charged to see the doctor.

A bit touchy, an't we?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 25, 2001.

That is interesting re: fees as here the nurse practitioners are much less costly to visit and can do PAP smears and as well as other exams. I suppose if I had to pay the same high fees as the doctors charge I'd just go to one.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Anne, the problem here is that doctors/clinics/group practices hire nurse practitioners to work for them. Then when you go to see the doctor, you don't get to see the doctor - you get to see the nurse practioner. But you are STILL charged the doctor's office fee. This has happened to me both times that I have made appointments at doctors offices where they have nurse practitioners - I made an appointment to see THE DOCTOR and when I got there was told he was busy/not there whatever and was shuffled off to the NP.

It's not a matter of choice. This is yet another way that the medical profession has of squeezing more money out of us. The clinic or group practice charges US full fee and pays the NP less than a doctor. If I could go to a nurse practitioner and pay a reasonable office visit fee, I would. I don't happen to think there's anything special about that MD that makes a "real doctor" better than a nurse practitioner.

In fact, I WISH they'd normalize the laws about NPs across ALL the states so that they could set up practices on their own just like the old GPs. Then at last we would be able to afford health care again. It's not like the MDs want to do it. As someone has noted elsewhere, medical schools do everything they can to dissuade their students from going into GP because "there's no money in it".

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 26, 2001.

That explains it Sojourner, since here the NPs DO HAVE their own offices. That way you know what you are getting. Thanks for clarifying your point. I'd certainly be ticked off if I paid a doctor's fee and didn't get to see them when I made the appointment with them.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), June 26, 2001.

Sojourner, everyone makes their own choices. The same job salary or minimum wage will go further (or not) depending on where you live and how you live. Everyone has their own notions of "absolutes", things they refuse to live with or without. If you're single, shared housing is an option. With families, find a like-minded family and share, or continue to live with relatives until you get can afford to move elsewhere. So many people automatically kick out their kids at 18. What a shame. My parents were never that way--they believed in the extended family--and you took care of each other. Live near your work, and you can take public transit, carpool, or walk. With gas prices and cars that get awful mileage, you can pay MORE in car related expenses than you can in living expenses when you commute. I am always puzzled when people get out of the city, own their own house with a yard, and spend 2-3 hours EACH WAY on the freeway. Why? You're not saving any money. You obviously aren't home long enough to enoy your property either. Live in a smaller place, and travel once in a while, or take advantage of the many free and low-cost activities you can get in a city that aren't available in rural areas. I wasn't exactly sure from your post what you do with your land, but if it is farming, and you weren't making money, and you were old enough and had equity, you could look into setting up as a non-profit educational farm (health care could be deductible) or sell it for a life estate plus health insurance if you have no one to leave it to. Heck, even places like The Nature Conservancy might make an offer. There are consequences to every choice we make. I personally know poor people who choose cable and video rentals over healthcare. My in- laws prefer to live in the boonies where gas is $2.00+ a gallon most of the time, even when we can get it for $1.50. These are not rich boonies either, there is just a lot of merchant gouging. We have tried to objectively go over with them how much they could save if they lived elsewhere, got rid of a camper (and the truck they need to pull it) they rarely use, etc., but they like their friends, and their church and so on. They do pay like $40 per year for ambulance coverage through some veterans group, and it has really saved them a lot of money. We just sigh and help out in other ways. I think everyone has somewhere they could cut back in their budgets--we just are too close to things to make objective judgements. You NEED food, clothing and shelter, you don't need caviar, Gucci, or to necessarily own where you hang your hat. There is a lot of leeway in the equation here, I was just making a point. Rice and beans, are inexpensive and healthy, but when poor people go to food banks here, they pass them up in favor of donated convenience foods. Obviously not *really* poor or hungry.

Many years ago, the Wall Street Journal had an article about a woman receiving welfare and managing her budget so well (shopping at thrift stores, etc.) that she actually had a small (about $3000) savings account. They took away her benefits. They should have given her a job teaching others how to manage their money.

Remember, as bad as things seem to be, even the poorest in this country live better than 75% of the rest of the world. Count your blessings. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

GT, that has got to be the most condescending load of ... stuff ... I've seen in awhile.

Of course there are some people who waste even what little they've got. Given the fact that our society as a whole is extremely wasteful, that's really not terribly surprising.

However, your anecdotes about the lazy poor getting "convenience foods" at food banks doesn't really address the issue, does it?

I laid it out, there are the figures. You do the math. Given health care insurance costs $400 to $600 a month, there is no way - no amount of economizing, scrimping, saving, or cooking from scratch - that the working poor can afford health insurance.

There aren't enough hours in the day for someone to watch the number of rented videos it would take to make up the money to pay for health insurance. That's just a straw man. So is the implication that poor folks ought to live with their parents - who more than likely are also poor.

Yes, lets crowd 3 generations into that tenement room. Mmm, mmm, mmm, oh for the good old days! LOL!

You can throw out anecdotes and condescension and sneer at the lazy poor until your face turns blue, but it won't change the facts. We don't make enough money to start with to shell out $600 a month for health insurance, no matter how frugally we may live or how tightly we budget.

You can't get blood from a stone. And somebody who only MAKES $600 a month can't afford health insurance that costs $600 a month.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 27, 2001.

If you read Anne's earlier post, she and her husband got coverage for $175 per month with a $2500 deductible. It does not have to cost $400 per month, or more, and it probably varies by location, and you have to factor in the dues for that organization. Even some of the car and home insurance companies now offer medical insurance. You have to look around.

It is a fact that rural areas have fewer health care professionals. If one has significant health problems, move to where you can get the care--it can be cheaper in the city, and you're saving on transportation and other costs. I saw on the news a while back where someone had an 8-hour trip for dialysis because they live in a rural area. They knew that when they moved there. For certain specialized types of care (like dialysis), there is just not enough walk-in traffic to make it worthwhile to build to just break even, let alone be profitable. For example dental care can often be gotten less expensively at dental schools. Unless the government (or a charitable organization) is paying for that doctor's medical degree, you can't expect doctors and other healthcare professionals to live where they don't want to.

As for the "let's crowd three generations," how do you think immigrants have been able to save the money in order to buy the businesses they now own? Oh, I get it, it's okay for them, but I'm too good for it? A lot of people live that way--you can't beat it for family support, not to mention savings on daycare.

You are misunderstanding my point about economizing where you can. For example, unless you are using your library's or employer's computer, there is another unnecessary expense. To use your example of utilities, if you're on well and septic, you don't have water and sewer bills. Further, if you wash all natural fibers and are careful with what you put down your drain, your septic won't need to be pumped so often because it's clogged with stuff that won't decompose, and so on.

Taken together, cutting unnecessary expenses might make you enough to puchase comprehensive coverage, or at least allow you to buy medications you need to keep your health from getting worse. Believe me, I could live quite comfortably without a lot of things if I had to, since I grew up without extra stuff.

Also, there is a difference between sit-on-your-derriere welfare, and managing to qualify for low-cost health plans due to income. I saw one state plan (primarily for children to get coverage) that had the low income cutoff for like $45,000 for a family of 4. In the '70's that kind of money would have caused you to be considered well-off, and in certain parts of the country today you would still be considered fairlywell-off. This kind of plan is not the same as welfare. If you qualify for this, go for it and welcome!

Finally, if you can't make money where you are, what else is keeping you there? Are you following a dream and trying to make it work? In some areas perhaps minimum wage is all that's available, but not everywhere. They are still allowing people on visas to come and work in high tech for big bucks. Why? because nobody here wants to go to school and learn how to do it. Yes, some of those classes are quite expensive, but even when students have the money they aren't going in to that field, so they shouldn't complain when someone else makes the money.

I'm only offering suggestions here. Take from them what you will. And by the way, the middle class is suffering as much as or more than the working poor--at least the working poor don't have to look at divorcing when they have a sick child in order to qualify for care. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

Oh horse puckey. In case you haven't noticed, this isn't about me in particular. Yup, I've got a few niceties left over from when I was a yup, one of them being the 5 year old PC upon which I am typing this response. Let's see, I bet I could get .... almost $50 if I sold this thing. LOL!

Wiggle as you will, GT, faks is faks, and the fact is (and I repeat) NO AMOUNT OF ECONOMIZING is going to get you health insurance when you don't have the money. Yes, I did read the posting wherein the woman said she found catastrophic coverage for $175 a month, with $2500 deductible. But somebody who makes just a few hundred a month STILL can't afford almost $200 a month, even if they can find that kind of coverage, which numerous other posters have already told you is real hard to come by.

You have got to be one of the least sympathetic, most judgemental people I have ever had the misfortune to discover breathing the same oxygen as the rest of us.

You repeatedly characterize the working poor as lazy, ignorant slobs who waste every opportunity they get, then you keep throwing up straw men to try to distract us from the actual point of the thread.

For your edification, and since you insist on missing it over and over and over again, health insurance is expensive. Many many people cannot afford to buy it. And because insurance has become ubiquitous and because our society has become absolutely obsessed with the pursuit of the almighty dollar to the exclusion of darn near every other aspect of life, medical care WITHOUT insurance has also become exorbitantly expensive.

Keep throwing up straw men, none of this has anything to do with whether or not I'm happy homesteading - I am. Won't change a thing.

LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 27, 2001.

I'm happy if you're happy. I guess you have free internet. All I wanted to point out is that everyone's financial situation is different--and often, though not always, of their own making. Some still have long term debt when they retire, some do not. None of us actually knows the whole story when a poster asks a question, so we can only offer up suggestions based on what we know or have experienced.

The poster did not mention whether she works outside the home (which is work enough). If she worked and had coverage, that could also cover her husband. Another option is to volunteer somewhere (hopefully where a stipend is paid), and thereby qualify for that organization's group coverage.

The minimum wage earner not working full time you keep bringing up would qualify for all sorts of state/federal aid, not a lot, but rental vouchers, health care, food stamps, etc. not to mention they are not in fact paying taxes on what they earn except for FICA and social security and any sales taxes. And don't forget the earned income credit (which may or may not still be around).

Yes, I know health care and health insurance are expensive, and you don't always get what you pay for. But there are some doctors out there who will charge you less if you don't have insurance, because it saves them the hassle of paying someone just to do medical claims. If you're single, or married with no kids, and your teeth are in reasonable shape, skip the dental insurance and spring for an extra cleaning or two per year.

Part of what makes insurance so expensive is insistence on $5 co- pays (or no co-pays) and $5 prescriptions. The original poster mentioned age and smoking as factors to consider, we don't know about any other medical history. They may or may not need to go to the doctor often enough at this stage in the game to need such comprhensive insurance.

As to $2500 being a high deductible, it is and it isn't. Can you risk a $5000 deductible, betting on family and/or friends to help you out in time of need? That may bring premiums within your reach. It is a way to self-insure, and the insurance company's way to make sure you don't nickel and dime them with claims, that's why you get the lower rates. A lot of people don't even raise their car insurance deductible to $500 or $1000, and then wonder why their rates go up after putting in a $250 claim.

I am sorry you think I am unsympathetic--far from it. But there is often more than one way to solve a problem. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

Sojourner, the last thing I want is for the Feds to get involved with my health care! They are involved in far more than they have the legal right to mess with, constitutionally, anyhow. We should be looking at backing OUT of all the Federal involvement in private lives in this country, NOT increasing the presence of their nasal hairs in my affairs! Good night, Sojourner, I thought you had more sense than that!

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

This may help you. I found it at www.cheapskatemonthly.com under Insurance in the Tips Viewer.

Health Insurance Saving For people who need health insurance coverage, I have found that it is actually cheaper to enroll in and pay for one undergraduate or graduate course per semester and get the student's health insurance, which is around $580 per year, than paying for coverage on your own. Purchasing health insurance on your own can cost over $200 per month ($2,400 per year.) If you paid the $580 student insurance instead, you would have $1,820 left to pay for the class, books, and what ever else! So no matter what your age, just enroll in that class!

My (GT's) opinion: it probably doesn't matter what class you sign up for, so you could sign up for an exercise class (no cost for books and no homework). Execise would be a good thing in any event, and making it a habit would be easy when you have to go to class. You might want to even try the community colleges, which would be cheaper, although many of them actually expect you to show up to class (unlike regular colleges and universities, where as long as you showed up for midterm and final it didn't matter--they had your money), the nerve! LOL

GT (see, I do care)

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

Hey GT, I have a friend who did that during a bad money time. It worked great for her. College and life long education DO pay off!

Maybe folks could study to be a NP and make all that big money out there...LOL.

BTW our insurance went up and now we have a new provider under the same alumni plan....still the same high deductible. Had a scare recently and glad we have insurance since we don't know what is ahead. It is hard buying insurance for two folks when you can't get a family discount.

-- Anne (HealthyTouch101@wildmail.com), June 27, 2001.

I guess it depends on how expensive classes are. Back before Proposition 13 in CA passed, community college was FREE except for the books and health fee. Probably one class may be all you can afford, but then you might qualify for financial aid based on need...You only need one class to be considered a student, and you may still have to pay for a parking sticker, and whatever other fees they're charging these days.

It's still got to be a better deal than paying what you and others are paying. I wonder if you can get student insurance through distance learning? But I still think the exercise class is the way to go, health-wise. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), June 27, 2001.

GT, you are just incredible. Enroll in college for health coverage. Well I guess that might work - if you live in a college town.

All student health plans are not created equally either. When I went to college lo these many moons ago it was quite good, and very cheap. In fact the school maintained a free clinic staffed by medical school faculty on a volunteer basis. Now that has all changed - the medical insurance is expensive, and requires you to go to the clinic (no longer free) now located just off school property, said clinic only operating between the hours of 8 to 5 M - F and something like 9 to noon Sat.

You comment: "Purchasing health insurance on your own can cost over $200 per month ($2,400 per year.) If you paid the $580 student insurance instead, you would have $1,820 left to pay for the class, books, and what ever else!"

Riiiight. People who make a few thousand a year (I personally haven't had $5k in income in any year since I moved here) have $2400 of disposable income to put into college like that.

Not that its a bad idea - its not. In fact, for people who have that sort of disposable income, its a great idea. But you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that what is feasible where you live or for you is not feasible for everyone. If nothing else, there are still admissions requirements. Sure you can take classes for no credit - but isn't that kind of a waste?

You comment (re crowding 3 generations into a single tenement room): "Oh, I get it, it's okay for them, but I'm too good for it?"

LOL! It wasn't good enough for them either! If you knew anything at all about tenement conditions you'd know that such overcrowding led to disease, violence, and continued poverty. Crowd too many people together and they start to lose that humanity. EVERYBODY'S too good to have to live like that!

And not only that, GT, let me remind you that it is actually illegal. Two single adults can't even share a 1 bedroom apartment - not legally, although same sex couples are overlooked, just try to rent an apartment with a same sex roomate. I have a friend who couldn't rent a 1 bedroom apartment to share with her SISTER when they were going to school.

I don't know where you are that somebody making $45k can get subsidized health care - New York City maybe? But its sure not available where I live, nor where a lot of other people live. Even YOU admit that that particular program is only to get health coverage for children, a goal which, while laudable in and of itself, surely doesn't help Mom or Dad be able to foot THEIR medical bills.

"Are there no ORPHANAGES? Are there no POORHOUSES?"

You comment, re high-paying jobs: "nobody here wants to go to school and learn how to do it"

Yes, the old go to the big city and get a good job argument. We know where that's gotten us.

GT, why are you even ON this forum? Where do you live anyway? Have you somehow failed to notice that there are an awful lot of people on this forum who are specifically rejecting the lifestyle you are advocating, chasing the almighty dollar? "Pack up and follow the money"?

But lets ignore issues of philosophy for the nonce. Let's look at your assumption based on its own merits; to wit, that each and every individual who is currently un or under employed is in fact capable of seeking and attaining a four or 5 year college degree and then making $100k a year, thereby gaining full health coverage.

Lets face it. Not everyone in this country is intellectually or constitutionally capable of attaining a college degree.

You seem to be implying that those who are incapable of carrying out said plan fail to do so purely through laziness or perhaps some failure of moral fiber, and they therefore DESERVE to go without affordable health care.

"Let them die, and decrease the surplus population!"

On the one hand you advocate letting "THEM" (po fokes) move to places where its cheaper to live so their living expenses won't be so high. Naturally places like that usually have a lower per capita income as well, with fewer, lower paying jobs. Well that's not really a problem for me, that's exactly what I did when I dumped the rat race and moved to the middle of nowhere in Missouri from Portland Oregon.

Then you turn right around show us the other hand - you say "THEY" (we're still talking about the same po fokes here) should move somewhere where there are higher paying jobs if they want to make more money. Of course, they're STILL going to be poor because it now costs more money to live there.

!!!!

I can't see where anyone is really going to profit from this back and forth migration, except maybe the gas companies and possibly Greyhound.

New York City (or WHATEVER urban haven) is not the whole world. There is an entire culture and population out here that is rural and not urban or even suburban. It's where your food is grown, and its where a fair amount of the manufacturing that is still being done in this country (that hasn't been shipped offshore to China or south to Mejico) is done. We have our place in society too, and just because we're not as loudmouthed or well organized as the city dwellers doesn't mean we don't have a right to our simple, rustic, backwoods redneck hick hillbilly existances. We deserve health care - that we can afford - too. We're not lazy, though we may be dirty and smelly sometimes - usually from hard work. We're not stupid. We don't even expect the rest of the country to carry us on their backs. We're not looking for a way to make y'all pay for our healthcare. We're not looking for the government handouts you keep advocating as a solution to our problem (which btw most of us DO NOT QUALIFY FOR because we are the WORKING poor as opposed to the unworking poor).

What we want is to be able to AFFORD health care. When it costs $75 just for an office visit, that is difficult to manage.

When it costs (AT BEST) $200 a month for even catastrophic health coverage, that is difficult to manage.

When jobs are sparse, hard to come by, and often temporary or part time in nature, it is difficult to manage.

Telling us to move to the city and get real jobs is not an answer, its a dismissal, not a solution. And if it actually HAPPENED it would cause all sorts of new social problems as the po' fokes crowd into the already overcrowded po' neighborhoods.

Or were you planning on putting some of "THEM" up at your place?

You comment: "if you can't make money where you are, what else is keeping you there?"

What, now the point of existence is making money? Are you SURE you are on the right forum? I'm here because I LIVE here. At no point have I complained that I'm not making enough money. What I HAVE said is that LOW INCOME PEOPLE CANNOT AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE. And often can't come up with the money for a visit to the doctor either. It's reality for a whole lot of people, GT. Nothing you have said in anyway changes that reality. There are huge gaps in the "security net". A whole LOT of people fall through the cracks.

You keep mentioning this or that government program for subsidized health care; such programs are not widely available outside of urban areas, and anyway, we're the WORKING poor, not the sucking at the government teat because we're lazy poor. We didn't ask anyone to GIVE us anything. What we want - and need - is affordable health care. Its a real issue and no amount of telling people to snap to attention and get a real job is going to change that.

The truth is even those with insurance are finding they aren't as well off as they had assumed. More and more insurers are going to managed health care. That's where some corporation somewhere manages to keep as much money as they possibly can by refusing to pay for treatment until you give up and die and stop bothering them.

This isn't really an issue of the poor though its been sidetracked pretty thoroughly in that direction. Its an issue of greed vs the sustenance of life. Even you said it - the middle class are taking a hit too.

You comment: "The minimum wage earner not working full time you keep bringing up would qualify for all sorts of state/federal aid, not a lot, but rental vouchers, health care, food stamps, etc. not to mention they are not in fact paying taxes on what they earn except for FICA and social security and any sales taxes."

No, I don't (qualify for ANY federal or gubmint aid) and yes, I do (pay taxes other than social security).

You comment: "But there are some doctors out there who will charge you less if you don't have insurance"

Yes, there are. But there are damn few of them and I have yet to find one. Most doctors don't work in private practice anymore, they work for groups and clinics, and corporations don't practice compassion. Hurrah for the ones that exist! Tough luck for the rest of us, we can just die.

But then I'm one of the wasteful poor - I pay $18 a month for access to the internet superhighway so I can drive my 5 year old computer way over the speed limit, and $12 a month for a local-access only phone line, so I'm wasting $40 a month that could be put to use doing something useful. Of course, then I'd be stuck 20 miles from anywhere in the back of beyond with no way to contact the outside world. Maybe I'd have health insurance coverage - I'm SURE I could find some for $40 a month with only like a $50,000 deductible - but I wouldn't be able to call the ambulance to come and get me. But you can't have everything.

It amazes me how judgemental people who have comfortable lives can be about people who are poor. Even when I had money it would never have occured to me to tell someone who DIDN'T they ought to be economizing, shouldn't ever buy any convenience foods, should eat rice and beans every day, shouldn't own ANY nice clothes, should sit in their underheated apartments in coats and hats and shiver uncomplainingly ...

I don't smoke. I don't drink. I buy my food from salvage groceries. I wear my clothes until they literally fall apart and I shop WalMart, not Gucci (I can't believe you even said that, LOL!). I am building my own house BY MYSELF and I'm living in a 14' camper with no bathroom facilities that is falling apart (I have to put duct tape over the seams in the roof or it leaks when it rains) in the meantime. I don't think you can get much more frugal than I live.

But I do have internet access, which I use for research, occasionally for work (to make money), and to keep in touch with friends and relatives, including my 82 year old father who lives 700 miles away from me. Sure saves on long distance! Oh but then I'm po' and shouldn't have a phone ... Yup, I'm just being willfully selfishly stubbornly extravagant maintaining this $18 a month connection to the outside world. Obviously if I get sick I deserve to die, because I'm the grasshopper and you're the ant.

LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 28, 2001.

Sojourner, I am really not sure what your point is here. Everyone has offered a multitude of options and you just get nasty. Why??? We are here to help each other the best we can. If you don't like the advice you get, why be like this?? Go someplace where you can hear what ever it is that you want to hear. I see you posting all over the place, lots of time on you hands??? Time is money.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.

Oh, for the infected spider bite, try a poultice of crushed garlic, sage and comfrey, it worked as a drawing type thing when my husband had an infected finger. Keep it on for an hour or so three or four times a day.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), June 28, 2001.

Diane, I am currently unemployed because the restaurant I was working for went out of business. So yes, I do have time on my hands. But no, time is not money. Time is a magazine. Money is money and time is time. Time cannot be bought no matter how much money you have, but you can waste a lot of time chasing money. You can get more money, but you can never get more time. Funny how that works.

NO solutions have been given for health care for the working poor. What we have seen a lot of are some fairly good solutions for people who have enough money to implement them. They're not all bad ideas; they're just not solutions for somebody who doesn't have two or three thousand dollars (MINIMUM) a year in discretionary funds. Somebody making under $10k a year - and I make less than half that, or have since I got here - does not have a couple thousand of dollars a year or more to sock into health insurance. Telling me I WOULD have, if I would only give up my $18 a month internet condition (and eat rice and beans every day, and boy wouldn't THAT make the atmosphere in this 14' travel trailer I'm living in pleasant, LOL!), is at best condescending, if not downright nasty.

The only "nasty" thing I've seen on this thread is where GT originally told everybody who doesn't have insurance what great whopping fools they are, and the continuos references since to the lazy shiftless poor who pass up a good solid meal of rice and beans for "convenience food" while shopping the food bank in their Gucci sweaters.

Hopefully I'll be reemployed in the next week or two. Oddly enough my education has hurt me trying to get a job here - I have a college degree, have in fact taught at the college level, and I have found its a mistake to put that on a job application because they immediately make two important assumptions against you:

1) You are a white collar softie who wouldn't know hard work if it jumped up and bit you;

2) Even if you were willing to work hard, you won't stay, so why bother to hire you to start with?

The sad thing is that is often true. I've seen a lot of "dropouts" come down here and act like lords and ladies. After awhile they usually drop back in. Unfortunately that casts a pretty dim light on those of us who are serious and intend to stay. Personally, I'm about as ambitious as a clam. I would still be working the deep fryer in a chinese restaurant and mopping the floor at night if they hadn't gone out of business. Anyway.

Since I have no PRACTICAL skills the only jobs I'm suited for are menial positions. I have no bookeeping, no mechanical skills, no (marketable) construction skills; I don't know how to file, I don't know how to run an office; I spent 20 years with my face glued to a computer churning out line after line of code. Even if I wanted to go back to programming, which I patently do not, there are no jobs like that around here anyway.

I have no problem with so-called "menial" work; where would the rest of you all be if there wasn't somebody cleaning those public toilets, mopping those floors, or manning the deep fryer at your favorite restaurant? But getting HIRED is a whole 'nother ball of wax. LOL!

The truth of the matter is that there IS no solution, nor has one been suggested, for people in my situation. I am "landed", that is, I own property. That right there disqualifies me for any sort of gubmint aid. But I am cash poor. And I'm not the only one, and I'm not the only one on this forum. MANY homesteaders are in a like position. We have worked hard, we own our land (and homes, though I'm still in the process of constructing mine, and that's ANOTHER part of the reason I have time on my hands - I'm out of construction materials, so I can't even work on the house! LOL! I can't even mow the pasture because the DR is leaking oil and I can't get it fixed right now.)

So no, we aren't fools who refuse out of pique or stubborness to buy health insurance. We just plain don't have the money.

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 28, 2001.

Oops, missed the spider bite remedy. Is there a ratio of how much of each of those I should use? I've had this for so long I'm about ready to try anything. It's been a year now. If I get this job I've applied for - and it looks like I very well may - I will EVENTUALLY have insurance again - but it'll be 3 months after I start before I'm allowed to use it. I assume you mean all fresh? Do I put it on and cover it with a bandage? How long do you leave it on? Can I think of another annoying question to ask you? Not right now, guess we'll have to leave it at that. LOL!

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 28, 2001.

Since this thread is rather long, I've not got to read all comments.Pro and con this topic Affects Every One. But If you are a vetran get a copy of your DD214 and head for your nearest V.A. Hospital or Clinic. Check it out. Nathan

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (barnyard_mini@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.

Sojourner- Do not take this as a personal attack, but I would suggest that your situation is different from those of the working poor who have never been able to earn enough or change their position enough in life to get health insurance. For most of these there are govt programs which offer at least some assistance. You made a decison at some point for reasons which I neither know, nor can judge, to walk away from the security and benefits of corporate america to pursue your dream. You knew, or should have known, the rules of society vis a vis health insurance, etc. at that time and made a choice which left you out of that system. To now expect the rest of us to change the rules to fit what you think you should have is just as disingenuous as some of the arguements you have fought against here. No system is perfect and some will fall though the cracks of even the best system. These are the people who deserve our empathy and aid. Those who dive through the cracks willingly, deserve neither.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.

Ray - so what you are saying is tough luck to the poor, basically.

There are a whole raft of people in my position. I am not alone. Being cash poor but owning land is not at all as uncommon as you seem to think, nor being poor and "eligible" for supposed financial aid from the government. Nor is it a situation only corporate dropouts are in. In fact the vast majority of homesteaders I know who own their land and homes free and clear are not, in fact, corporate dropouts, but people who have worked hard, scrimped and saved, for decades.

I have been in both positions vis a vis being poor, and in the position of being insured to the gills. The care the truly destitute get is substandard to nonexistent; there is little or no care beyond the emergency room. That means that minor conditions that could be easily and cheaply treated in the early stages are frequently not treated at all until they become catastrophic.

The image some of you folks have of easily available, free health care for the poor - landed or not - is a myth. My sister has the student insurance that has been touted as a solution, and its not. She still can't get basic health care. She IS a student, paying her way through college (and though I did it 20 years ago its a lot worse now, tuition costs 2 and a half times ADUSTED FOR INFLATION what it cost when I was doing it). She cannot get basic health care. After paying for tuition, books, food, rent, clothing, and the catastrophic coverage, she has nothing left. Not a penny.

Twenty years ago, it was almost true that the poor could get halfway decent healthcare - there really were loads of free clinics.

Today, they are almost extinct.

Insurance is a racket and health care has become inordinately expensive, to the point where people think they HAVE to have insurance to pay for it (well with an office visit running $75 or more that's about true).

Ah, but then I "dove through the cracks willingly" and therefore deserve no health care. If someone wants health care then they should get a REAL job and quit this craziness. So I - and everyone like me - should just die and let the rest of you get on with it, eh? LOL!

You seem to think the current situation in health care is A-OK. I guess you're insured, aren't you?

-- Sojourner (notime4@summer.spam), June 29, 2001.

Sojourner- There are a "whole raft of people" in any situation you care to describe. it's a big, big country. My point was, and is, is that there is no one plan that will make it great for all. Nationalized health care plans across the globe have their problems,too, from lack of specialized medicine to access to procedures. One of the greatest things about this country and one of the things that most homesteaders I know truley love, is that we are free to make choices, whether they be good or bad, and live with consequences. I don't wish death upon you or anyone else be they poor or rich. I do have a job which provides subsidized health insurance, though some days I wish I could just walk away from it. Part of my decison making process has to do with what other health coverage alternatives I could have if I did. I pay for things like dental care out of pocket because that insurance is even more of a racket. Within the next few years I will leave this job, but not before ensuring an income stream from my on farm activities that will provide me with what I need. These are the decisons I talk about, not the true poor who through no choice live in poverty. You are not them, I have been them, do not try to speak for them.

-- Souray s (mmoetc@yahoo.com), June 29, 2001.

Sojourner, The hint I posted was from someone else, and I posted it as such. My comments were below the hint. I would also add that depending on what state you're in, you may have to go quarter or even half time to qualify as a student. There is financial aid available, and there are not always admission requirements. You don't even have to be in a "college town"--most colleges have classes that are taught in places ranging from the local high school or community buildings to empty office buildings or even small satellite campuses. There might even be correspondence schools which can qualify you as a student for healthcare purposes. It would not be a bad investment to take an EMT (emergency medical technician) class or two, or, as Anne said, learn to be a Nurse Practitioner. The Red Cross offers First Aid classes also. Even taking a class in outdoor (geared towards backpackers and given through orgs like the Sierra Club) medicine (or reading every book you can lay your hands on) might be a good use for limited cash when you can't afford insurance.

The whole thing with belonging to some group for healthcare has to do with being able to take advantage of their bargaining power when it comes to rates. If your employer sends you a benefits statement that shows how much you pay compared to how much they pay on your behalf, you may be surprised that the actual insurance price is not necessarily that different from what people are quoting here, it is just that you don't have that employer picking up some or most or all of that tab. That is one of the few benefits of an outside job, and why many people stay in jobs they hate, because they need the healthcare coverage for themselves or a loved one. It is not always about the money. The larger the employer, the better the deal they can swing with the insurer. Managed care or HMOs don't have to be all that bad, again depending on where you are versus where the doctors are. Many people I know (with problems like MS) have had good results with Kaiser, for example. As for only high-paying jobs offering good healthcare, that is not always the case--many lower level gov't jobs (some of which you don't even have to work at 40 hours a week), offer good benefits. Any job with a strong union (like the NEA) also has pretty decent benefits.

Maybe where you live, landlords don't want people who are not married cohabitating (conflict with the landlord's personal beliefs), but in most of the rest of the country, landlords are only concerned with whether or not you EACH can pay the rent. If you are married it will show up on a credit check . They can legally go after a spouse for joint credit obligations. That's why they run credit checks on ALL adults renting and make you ALL sign the rental agreement--not just the one with the job when people aren't married.Say one skips out on his or her share, the landlord will go after whomever else on the rental agreement has the money to pay (and that the landlord can track down)--and that person will have to go after the runaway roomie to get reimbursed. If between the two (or more) of you you can barely make the rent with your combined income when they check all of the reports, no landlord anywhere is going to rent to you. Same with getting other types of credit. That's just the way it is.

I know that some older people get married by a member of the clergy (to make things right by their beliefs, but not getting a license so they don't reduce their soc sec benefits) but may not be married in the eyes of the state--that can also help or hurt you depending on what you are trying to qualify for in the way of credit or healthcare, not to mention who gets what in a will.

I admit I am struggling with some of your definitions for "homesteading" and "working poor". I did a search on homesteading and so far I have not seen "poor" and "homesteading" in the same paragraph (except in your posts), much less in the same sentence, and from reading your posts, I gather you own your property free and clear.

As I read it, "working poor" means maybe you own a car, but you certainly don't own any land, much less a house, and you're not in any position to qualify for any type of a mortgage. So, to me, you're middle class, cash poor or no. Even someone who is paying a mortgage is middle class. So we are probably working off different definitions here. And you often can't just go on salary amounts either. Many members of the clergy, for example may only make a salary of say, $10,000, but they often have car, food, healthcare and housing provided as a part of their benefits package. So, cashwise, they may or may not have to pay taxes, but they are certainly better off than the definition of "working poor" that I used above. And it is true that the same amount of money will go further or not, depending on where you live. The money that barely pays the rent on a studio apartment in the big city (where you are officially "poor" and can qualify for aid) will buy you land and a really nice house elswhere (making you one of the "landed gentry" in that area and therefore not eligible for aid).

I'm hoping that everyone who is posting also exercises their right to vote and perhaps that way we can also change the laws to make things better. I agree with Ray that nationalized healthcare is not necessarily the answer--Brits buy private health insurance too, and Canadians also cross the border to get better healthcare.

Still looking for answers, GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), July 02, 2001.

Joel Salatin, the grass-based farming guru, has an opinion on this subject. He chooses NOT to buy health care. If you are interrested in his reasons, read his books. I think it was towards the back of "You Can Farm."

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 02, 2001.

Thanks Daffodyllady,

I will look up that resource. If someone has insurance or not it is their choice, and they are free to make that choice--my only concern is with people who in some cases had access to healthcare and chose not to make the budget adjustments needed to purchase it, then have to ask other people to bail them out of their healthcare debts a la Montana Bob's posts, or with benefit dinners etc. that we see a lot of in our rural area.

It is not dissimilar to people who don't fund their retirement accounts (whether it is an IRA or a work-sponsored plan) because they choose to use (or need) the money now, and then they have nothing come retirement.

When I say try to say save money in other ways, it all depends on what you wish to save it for (that is, your priorities). Some people get along fine without health insurance, thinking, oh well, if I get in a car crash it will be the other person's fault and their insurance will pay. More and more people are going without car insurance either, especially those that are "judgement proof", which many in this forum might actually be. The chances of your being hit by one of these people is getting higher all the time.

The best definition of judgement proof (and it still wasn't really clear) I have seen was on Nolo Press's website. www.nolo.com look in the lawsuit section (I think in the law encyclopedia section) under "Don't sue unless you can collect", I think it was.

So, at least for now, it seems, the best way to get coverage if you want it is to belong to some group, the bigger the better, or to be employed. Dues for some groups are going to be higher than others, and like the costs for being a student (including costs that are similar to going to work costs) need to be factored into the total picture.

GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), July 02, 2001.

I think Sojourner's whole point is that health insurance is just too expensive. Period. And I agree with her 100%. It shouldn't matter if you can afford it or not, it's just too much money for an average American, let alone one with lower income, to come up with day in, day out, year after year. And of course the cost keeps climbing. But as GT says, you're nuts if you don't have it, because if you have any assets you need to protect them just as you need to insure your house against fire. Yes, I have health insurance, and it's by far my largest personal expense coming in at about $8.50 a day. I would welcome national healthcare in the US, because I think it's the only thing that would stop the never ending upward spiral of costs.

Jennifer L.

-- Jennifer L. (Northern NYS) (jlance@imcnet.net), July 03, 2001.

Then I guess I am nuts. :^)

-- daffodyllady (daffodyllady@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

i would humbly suggest that the upward spiral in costs has more to do with the quality of care available and the expectations of the average health consumer. Look at the technologies and medicines available today as compared to 10, 20 , 50 or 100 years ago and ask who should pay for the "miracle " cures available today. CAT scans ain't cheap but they are used a lot and have saved many lives through better diagnosis. Diseases that killed then are readily cured or controlled today. Also not cheap when you consider the long term costs of maintainence medicines. Nationalized health care won't give the poor much more access than they have now. Those who can afford it will still buy private policies and guess who will get moved to the front of the line for the newest tests and cures. Those that can pay the most. Not much different than today.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

ray, I think you really nailed it!!! On top of that add the "sue- happy" generation so that every doctor and nurse has to pay huge fees for malpractice insurance and practice CYA medicine which means ever test ordered whether it is needed or not.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), July 03, 2001.

My dh has Medicare (which isn't too good) because he is over 65. Here in Washington we have Basic Health for low-income people. The children are free & I pay $17 a month. I figure it's worth it for emergencies since we have very little money. It also pays 1/2 on perscriptions which is good. Otherwise my meds are $65 a month.

-- Bonnie (stichart@plix.com), July 03, 2001.

I never said anyone was nuts not to have insurance--just that you have to look at the whole situation--children, if any, assets to protect, if any, and so on.

If I had to make a choice, I would go without fire insurance (obviously only if your property is free and clear) before going without health insurance. Why? Because you can always replace "stuff", and even if you have a fire, no insurance can ever replace family photos and other items of sentimental value, so the money you'd save on insurance you could put into a house sprinkler system or a good fire extinguisher. Health is a different matter entirely. Just a thought. GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), July 04, 2001.

Here is one for you. Worked at same place for 15 yrs. Paid in $45000.00 ins. pre. plus deductibles. Ins. paid out $15000.00 for me and my family . Then the company closes. Coba for 2 mos. Then the owner cancels all ins. and leaves town. No job and no ins. Wonder what we could have done with the unused $30000.00 plus interest.

-- Nathan Harris Sr. (bardyard_mini@yahoo.com), July 04, 2001.

Your library should have a copy of the "Encyclopedia of Associations" in the reference section. Look up any of your special interests in the index, and you can find a list of organizations in those fields. Many of them sell health insurance coverage to members. Concentrate primarily on the nationwide organizations--they are more likely to offer health insurance. Be sure to look carefully at the policies before buying to make sure you will get the coverage you need.

When Suzy and her husband do decide to start the business, if the organization they decide to join is business-related, they could probably also deduct the dues on their taxes as well.

GT

-- GT (randomnotznospam@yahoo.com), July 17, 2001.

Insurance sure does cost a lot and deciding whether or not to take out a policy depends on many factors. It also depends on the type of policy you want to take out. Most HMO's stink because when it comes down to really needing services, they will go all out to deny them. You definitely want a decent policy, one that allows you to choose the practitioners and facilities you wish to visit. These policies cost more but I think they are worth it.

Insurance really is a gamble because some folk go their whole lives healthy as can be, and others (while young) develop catastrophic illnesses that require intensive medical intervention.

One thing to consider-- the older you get, the higher your chances of developing medical problems, and with smoking--well, that significantly increases your spouse's risk of chronic illness. (Can you get him to quit?) An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

Paying hopsital bills monthly is a possibility as someone suggested, but some people I know are not even able to handle that. Medical bills can be devastating. Remember, too, that medical bills also can include endless and expensive prescription medications or equipment, particularly for management of chronic illnesses. It's not just about paying off a hospital bill. If you don't pay the pharmacy when you pick up the medications, you won't get your medication.

I recently worked with a woman that suffered a traumatic brain injury and she had no health insurance. As a result, she was deprived of decent rehabilitation and I believe did not recover as fully as she could have. I'm sure the reason she did not get good care is because no rehab facility wants to take a patient that cannot pay. This is a reality! Those with insurance will receive better medical care. And, with shorter hospital stays, aftercare is even more important than what the doctor or hospital can provide. Without insurance, you would have to pay out of pocket for occupational therapy, speech therapy, physical therapy, counseling, or any other supportive service.

Someone mentioned taking out a catastrophic plan. This may be something to consider if it is all you can afford. You may also want to see if your State offers any insurance plans for those that are not eligible for Medicaid. I live in NY State,w hich offers insurance for children, regardless of income. Are either one of you veterans? If so, the VA has health care for which you may be eligible. My brother used the VA for several years when he was unemployed and uninsured. Also, our county home health agency offers services for free for those that cannot pay. This means folks that need short term nursing or rehab can receive it at no cost if they are homebound.

Best of luck. We have had to pay for insurance out of pocket and it was quite costly. I constantly questioned the risk vs. the benefit, but chose to keep the policy. I'm a health professional and have seen all to often the financial ramifications of not having insurance.

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), July 17, 2001.