Just wondering what you think of alternative medicine. (Not being nosy to personal conditions). Have you tried homeopathy, herbs, chiropractic? What were the results? I'm looking for support because I have "Environmental Illness" that was probably caused from childhood immunizations(I call it chemical poisoning). People are real quick to point out how a person can't live without a regular doctor in their lives. They really get upset when I talk about natural medicdine and how wonderful herbs are. Have your children been immunized? I know a few families that won't and they've had no problems.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000

Answers

I'm sorry, but I have to say this. My cousin, at age 2 months contracted measles because somebody didn't get their shot. This has been very hard on my aunt and uncle because my cousin developed disabilities because of this infection. All of my children are immunized and up to date with all of their shots. I just can't see doing this to someone else's child. Before the infection, there was NOTHING wrong with this boy. I'm sorry you got sick, but this is my stand on immunizations and why. Too many children got sick, and or died for me not to support immunizations. As for alternative medicine, GO FOR IT! I'm also a firm believer in herbs. My family has hereditary migrains and I'm not about to poison myself or my family by having the sort of narcotics that the doctor put my mother on in my house. She flushed that all down the toilet, literally, and found an herb mix that works good for us. Tasts nasty, but who cares?! It works. I'm also a firm believer in organics, and have an organic garden and am raising my first batch of organic chickens. Have you thought of pesticides and herbicides as a contribitor? The whole world around us is poisoned every day, and the scientists are finding out the small amounts of 'safe' chemicals when mixed together are extreamly toxic. Good luck in finding out what works for you. If it works, to heck with what anyone else says or thinks. You and your family are what is most important.

annette

-- annette (j_a_henry@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

Hi Cindy,

My eldest daughter had seizures after her first dpt shot. She now has migraines and many allergy problems. Some inherited, I'm sure.

My second daughter died of "SIDS" a few days after her first dpt.

Child number three did not get immunizations, and our pediatrition showed me how to home remedy a cold to prevent ear infections.

By child number four, it dawned on me they had always gotten sick after a "well baby" visit. Her only contact with a doctor was for stitches and a tetanus shot when she tried to fly. This kid has never been ill and she drinks puddles and pondwater, eats slugs and bugs and many things to give me grey hair.

I taught my kids to be chronic hand washers with soap after every visit to town or church and everytime they come in the house. I keep my eyes and nose on alert for sick kids they may play with. And I agressively treat any fever over 101 degrees.

I believe good health comes from a healthy lifestyle, healthy diet, clean air, good hygiene and plenty of wild foods and a resposibility for our surroundings. Doctors can help, but they are not gods, ultimately, we need to find the perfect medicine created for us by the Creator, and not take the wisdom of men too seriously.

Anyway, through trial and error, this is the philosiphy that works for us.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

I just heard a program on public radio with an MD as quest who was raving about the efficacy of homeopathy--in certain cases. It seems with the alternatives that one size does not fit all. Some people respond better to one modality than another and one ailment responds better to one modality than another. There are lots of books available on just about any you can think of, and lots of web sites. Around here on public broadcasting there a show on called the peoples pharmacy with Joe and Terry Grayden who have also just published a book (name unknown) thats on my wish list.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 21, 2000.

Annette, yes I've thought about pesticides being a factor in my problem. That and every other chemical. Perfume is one of the worst things, there's a webite on chemical poisoning, talks alot about addicting perfume. My garden is organic. I eat extremely healthy, if there is such a thing. Do you (anyone) realize just how hard it is to find food that hasn't been affected by chemicals in one way or another. We've seem to have forgotten that people are natural, so whatever goes into people should be natural. Treat natural ailments with nature-seems logical to me. I believe God put a natural cure for everything in the earth.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

Cindy, have you ever noticed that if one alternative remedy doesn't work for EVERYbody, then that remedy (or all alternative remedies) is proven bogus? But no one bats an eye when one current medical practice or remedy doesn't work for everybody. Faulty thinking, but you can argue all you want, you won't put brains in people's heads.

Understand that if you decide not to get immunizations for your children, aside from the medical risks on either side, that you can be setting them up for problems later. If they ever travel outside the US or join the military, they'll have to have many of the shots then. Since it would be on top of any shots that they would need specificaly for the event, it will greatly add to their misery and increase the risk of problems. Even if you homeschool, for some reason one or more of your kids might end up in a public or private school. Or wish to participate in a sports program or something. They'll be required to have there shots. Even many colleges will require immunizations.

It would be nice to think your kids are going to grow up just the way you want them, but even the Amish lose about 25% of their young people to the world. Many of the diseases immunizations protect against are still around even here in the US. A few years ago, there was a toddler here with scarlet fever. Took the hospital staff by surprise. Polio is still simmering away, and iron lungs are few and far between anymore (but somewhere I've got plans to build one of the things, just in case). Gerbil

-- Gerbil (ima_gerbil@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

Good point Gerbil. My son though immunized got Scarlet Fever as a youngster. We are only caretakers of our children for such a short period of time, we give them the wisdom we have but in the long run they will take on the world on their own. Even something as benign as working in the health care field, teacher, day care, or restraunt worker will force them into being immunized. Being 43 Polio was only a thing that had happened to kids about 10 years older than me, and we saw them around infrequently. I think that this non-immunizing your kids is what is in vogue right now, like the breat-feeding movement was for me. Perhaps if a vaccinateable disease had touched these folks personally, they would think very differently about protecting their children. Bet Cindy doesn't even have a small pox vaccination scar! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), May 21, 2000.

I have heard of a few children who have had bad reactions to vaccines. My infant son came down with pertussis (whooping cough) after his first vaccination, and all the rest of us caught it from him! We continued immunizations since then with no problems. However, having a small-town doctor who doesn't even HAVE the vaccines to give, we have missed the start-of-school booster. (you have to go to the health department. No, thankyou.) If I were to do it over, I would have my children vaccinated selectively. No pertussis, no hepatitis B. My children still have not had chicken pox, the oldest is 12. Not sure what to do about that. Each of my children are different, too, so one I might have vaccinated, not another. Like some of you, we try to eat healthier and avoid doctors & their drugs. We do use some herbal & homeopathic remedies with great success. But I am not against doctors or some medicines - one child had to be hospitalized for an acute kidney infection, e-coli. She had massive antibiotics. But when I got her home, we started her on acidolphilus etc. to bring her body back into balance. Back to the immunizations, none of the diseases that are vaccinated for are eliminated entirely. Not vaccinating involves risk as does vaccinating. I won't get started on the new ones they are coming up with now!

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), May 21, 2000.

My best friend was one of the last to get polio and she just turned 40 recently, seeing the problems she goes through [muscular, joints, hip]I vote for vacines, just study up on them [something about live not as safe as killed virus?]. With the amount of people we come in contact with now you never know what they will be exposed to.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 21, 2000.

Vicki, yes I have a small pox scar, got it when I was a kid. When I went to Israel, had to have another one. My kids got their shots, but not a small pox, thy stop giving them back then. My grandkids have their shots. But I wonder when I see some of their problems if it might not be from the shots, since it's some of the same things that happened to me. I asked about that-got nowhere. People in general are becoming more allergic all the time. Much of my family has had medicinal allergies, but my problem goes well beyond. It's just not the shots I'm allergice to, it's virtually all chemicals. Think about what's in store bought milk-fermaldehyde(sp)Have you read labels on the food you buy? We're people not machines. Gerbil, you certainly said it right. Even if it works, if the drug companies and many doctors can't make money off of it, it's no good. Jean, I'd like to hear about the new vaccines.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

Cindy,

My children are not vaccinated, they have never been on antibiotics, they go to public school and have in 3 states in the U.S. and also in England. They are very healthy children, I am blessed. Annette, I am sorry about the terrible tragedy of your nephew. Please understand that during the recent measles epidemics approximately 50% of the children who got measles had been vaccinated. It is as likely that he got measles from a vaccinated child as an unvaccinated child.

I have a PhD in chemistry and a B.S. in chemistry and biology. I have thoroughly researched the immunization issue. It is certainly not clear cut! My feeling is that every parent should find out as much as they can and make the most educated choice that they can. I don't believe there are clear cut answers. I also had a child who reacted badly to a first immunization, I am lucky the damage was not permanent.

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), May 21, 2000.

With as much poisoning that is going on, which I believe is the cause of a lot of problems, it is no wonder that I fantisize about colonizing a brand new world. One that this sort of 'who cares, lets make money!' attituded could be left behind. Oh well, at least we can still find places on this planet where we can escape from at least some of these problems. annette

-- annette (j_a_henry@yahoo.com), May 21, 2000.

I'm a "monkey virus" child--a polio vaccine used prior to 1962 and required to enter school. Everyone injected with this vaccine has been injected with cancer ! I like the idea of eating herbs and toads and drinking from mudpuddles---germs save as well as kill--with vaccine's ==bend over and give your hind quarters a kiss "GOODBYE"

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 21, 2000.

For those of you who haven't had your children vaccinated, but they attend public school...how did you manage that? Here in Colorado, it is the law that they have to have certain vaccinations before admission. Of course, we didn't have that "proof" when we enrolled our granddaughter, due to divorce of the parents, the kids being left by our daughter, and irresponsible parents that didn't keep the necessary records. School just took our word that she had been vaccinated. Just curious. Jan

-- Jan B (Janice12@aol.com), May 21, 2000.

Jan,

Different states have different laws. In Wisconsin for example there is a philosophical waiver you can sign. The schools do not tell you about it but you can do the research and find out. In Arkansas, you have to be a member of an organized recognized religeon which does not permit vaccination. Our children have attended school here for a year and to date we have sent a letter stating that vaccination violates our belief system (which it does although we are not members of an organized religeon). In MA a law similar to the Arkansas law was declared unconstitutional as the constitution protects freedom and religeon and it was ruled that includes personal as well as organized.I think many states do not challenge you simply because it is a lengthy court battle.

I should also say my children have never been excluded from any sports clubs or events. We work with the school and are not antagonistic in anyway. We have made it clear that in the event of a disease outbreek, or if at anytime they feel our children poise a threat we will keep them home. My husband and I have traveled with NOAA, the British Antarctic Survey, and on many NSF sponsored research expeditions to the Antarctic, the Arctic, Europe, South America and various Pacific and Atlantic Islands. In every case we were allowed to participate after taking responsibility for our own health. However, in every case we were initially told we must be immunized.

There is a wealth of information available on the web, some pro some con and both camps have a few good sites and several poor ones. Again, I don't believe there is a right or wrong choice for everyone. Research (and not just of popular literature) and educating yourselves on both sides should help you make the best choice for your children (and grandchildren). Finally, it is much easier to immunize your children than not to so suggesting that parents who do not are simply lazy or don't care is inappropriate.

Kim

-- kim (fleece@eritter.net), May 22, 2000.

Alternative is good, if it's natural. Like taking garlic and brewers yeast to keep off bugs and ticks instead of poisening yourself with a commercial insecticide. Chiropratic is good too - the wife used to work with one as an assistant, and she can usually help sore muscles, head aches, blocked sinus, etc.

However, I don't like the theraputic (sp?) touch, channelled healing, etc. type of alternative healing for personal and religous reasons.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), May 22, 2000.

I have a good friend who has a niece in a hospital for the disabled. Happened the nite of the her dtp vaccine. All of my kids have had their vaccinations and are up to date. However, I would like to have had more say in some of the ones they received. I've been vaccinated against measles 3 times, yet bloodwork comes back saying no immunity. Vaccine won't work on me. (However, I am curious as to what happened to those bugs they injected into my body, Where they went, what they did and what they will do in the future.) To be honest, having read what I've read on the pharmaceutical industry lately, I don't trust them AT ALL. They've had some bad batches of the dtp they let go into babies, the monkey virus mentioned earlier, the phen-fen diet drugs, these people only care about money. The "testing" that's done by doctors will not allow the doctors to say anything negative about the tests, they sign a lifetime contract NEVER to mention the testing except in positive ways. I have a wonderful family doctor, we love her dearly. But, I told her I don't want ANY of the new drugs out there. Let the rest of these people play guinea pigs for a few years. If I don't hear about it on the news, then, I'll take it. I don't even trust birth control pills.

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), May 22, 2000.

Eric, I mean what you mean. I don't do the new age spiritual stuff. I'm a Christian and those things are evil. Natural means the way God made it, not synthetic.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

Isn't it interesting that they have a bad batch of dpt and don't take it completely out of use; But when there was a bad batch of L- tryptophan, they couldn't get it out of use fast enough. You can get it now by persciprtion only. Louise, I had a bad reaction to birth control pills 20 years ago, but then I have a bad reaction to every drug including aspirin. Have you noticed the commercials for drugs lately? They give you all the side affects. Some aren't real pleasant if you're eating while watching.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 22, 2000.

Those drug commercials on tv are enough to make me avoid trying the newest and latest in drugs! I won't use birth control pills because most of them are abortifacients, and the ones that aren't are progesterone which makes me act crazy. Does something to my emotions. I mentioned it to one of the women at church and she was taking it for menopause and it had the same effect on her! Suddenly several women were in the discussion and from what I heard, I'll take my chances on what science knows for sure about the human body, and how many children God blesses us with. (However, at 43, let me add, that I'm hoping my quiver is full enough now.)

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), May 22, 2000.

Cindy: I have to take issue with your statement that healing modalites other than what you, as a christian, deem to be good, are evil. If a person is helped, either thru healing, or the alleviation of suffering and pain, thru the agency of any other method, then I would have to call it good. The issue is helping and no other.

You are not qualified to make such harsh judgements or to condem others to needless pain and suffering, who might otherwise be helped by any one of these other methods. Some of the methods have been around longer than Christianity itself. The laying on of hands, by any other than by one who calls themselves a christian is evil?

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 22, 2000.

Cindy--I have the same thing you do!!! I was told by several doctors it was cancer--then told it was chemical poisioning! I'm an old hairdresser, who use to do platform work & worked for a hair coloring company--on week ends for several years,& I did tons of chemicals! Then worked in my salon 5 days a week up to 12 to 14 hrs. a day, with more chemicals! I'm now allergic to all forms of chemicals! I praise God that I'm still here because of His healing--& for getting me into homeopathy, vits. & mineral & herbs! We had a natural health company for over 15 years, also! We still use & help others with herbs, homeopathy, etc. Our children & grandchildren use natural products, also! When, we had our natural health co. the stories we were told of how people were helped is just truely not short of miracles! We gave so many products away--all we asked was, that if they were helped to let us know & then for them to help someone else, in need! I can't tell you how God blessed us through that ministry. I got so sick at one point in my life (I'm 5'8" in. tall) & I didn't weigh 80 lbs! I lost most of my hair-fingure nails & toe nails--I bled under the surface of my skin when ever I was exposed to any chemicals! (I had the scours all the time, ha)--I wasn't able to do much of anything--I didn't get well over night--& I still have health problems--but all the doctors had given up on me & sent me home to die! God wasn't through with me yet--& only by God's grace & healing am I here!--I just hope God saved me, so I can be raptured!--But what ever, I know I will be with Him! We use all natural products-we sold air purifiers & water purifiers, also--as your water you drink is very important also! I am a vegetarain now, also. You are what you eat, drink, & breath!!!! Thank you so much for shareing--if you ever want to discuss this anymore in deepth & not bore the rest of the posters, please e-mail me anytime! I praise God not only have I found others with the same life style--but also an understanding of the same health problems! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), May 22, 2000.

Just got back from Philadelphia and found this rather interesting thread!...I guess that over 30 years in medicine qualifies me to make a few comments: There is no vaccine for scarlet fever..scarlet fever is strep throat with a rash and 100% cured with cheap Penicillin.Way back prior to the 1940's, it was thought to be a disease unto itself.Out of a population with strep throat, only a few percent will develop a rash.People still freak when they hear "scarlet fever' because it was not commonly known as strep with a rash until the 1950s.Measles.....it used to be thought that ONE vaccine would protect against measles...about ten years ago, young college aged students who had received measles vaccine began getting weak cases of measles..whoops...so the CDC came up with a "booster" shot..it is still unknown if two shots are going to do the trick or not.Pertussis, (whooping cough) does not confer life-long immunity..nobody ever said that it did.What it does do is weaken the presentation of the illness so babies do not DIE from it. Polio....the oral vaccine contains a weakened live virus...this is a problem because of day care, family get togethers, etc...if you get enough little guys together and they all need their diapers changed, and they all get changed by an unvaccinated older person, the older person is at risk for polio virus being communicated.The injection of polio vaccine (IPV) uses DEAD virus.Hep B vaccine..before this one came along, many babies used to die from hepatitis B..now they don't. HIB vaccine prevents a very nasty germ from causing one type of meningitis that WAS nearly always fatal in kids under two years of age..now kids do not die from this germ and it is so rarely seen that doctors wouldn't know it if they fell over it.Chickenpox (varicella) vaccine...for each 10,000 kids that get chickenpox,5 will DIE from encephalitis (a brain infection) or Reyes Syndrome.Having seen babies and little kids DIE from ALL these diseases, I get just a little intense when well-meaning, yet grossly uninformed folks get on the "no vaccine for my kids" bandwagon.You guys have not seen these diseases because of the vaccines and "herd immunity".When 80% of a population is vaccinated, the whole "herd' is somewhat protected because of the decreased incidence of the diseases.Find some of the parents from Missouri whose 33 college kids died from measles in the 1970's because the parents did not think vaccines were a good thing and insisted their children not be immunized! Sorry for the long rant..I have held babies in my arms and watched them die because they were not vaccinated..I never want to do that again..I never want to think that through misinformation and alarmism,somebody's baby will die from a very preventable illness.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 22, 2000.

John, with all due respect, we're all entitled to our own opinions and my comes from personal experience and I wouldn't wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. We all face the consequences of our actions. I'll not go into detail here, if you need to know more e- mail me. Everyone has free will to choose their own healing, if you want to choose something I don't, go for it I'm not in authority over you. If someone wants to be healed in ways you're talking about, I'm sure they're not going to listen to me anyway. Laying on of hands is Biblical, so is testing the spirits, I want my healing to come from God.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

Cindy: You are exactly right. Such things are a matter of opinion, however, when they are presented as a matter of fact, such as "they are evil" when I know of many people who have been helped by these "evil" methods I feel compelled to comment.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), May 23, 2000.

John, you know, I've never been good with words like some of the people on this site, so I just blurt it out. What I said is fact in my life and some others that I know. I guess this is just another issue that you and I will have to agree to disagree on.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 23, 2000.

At risk of offending some people, the difference between good and evil isn't whether it *helps* people or not, it's whether it is right in God's eyes, according to the Bible. Satan can use things to keep people from God, and he makes them appear to be good, because most of us aren't knowingly going to choose evil things. It isn't right for a Christian to use *healing* methods that are based on occult practices.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), May 23, 2000.

Lesley, vaccines can be a good thing, but tell the mother of the children who have become vegetables that the risks outweigh the benefits. Also, when you have pharmaceutical companies who will not remove a bad dtp batch, or a bad drug, or tries to balance the use of a drug in their favor, who should we trust? I was vaccinated 3 times within 5 yrs. for measles, now I just have to avoid the outbreaks.

-- Louise Whitley (whitley@terraworld.net), May 23, 2000.

In my practice, I always discuss the risks VS benefits of vaccines with the parents.If parents took the time to read the accompaning literature (which many do not)...there is alot of scary stuff in there.I break it down into known statistics..it is KNOWN that a small percentage of kids who get chickenpox will die from the disease, or have permanent brain damage from it.It is also KNOWN that a MUCH smaller percent of kids who get the vaccine will have an adverse reaction to the components ranging from mini-chickenpox to seizures to a paralytic syndrome which is permanent.I also tell them that the odds of serious effects from the vaccine are 1 in one billion..the odds of serious effects from chickenpox are 1 in 10,000...I do not castigate parents who choose not to get the vaccines for their kids..I feel very sorry for them though.In many many years of practice and thousands of babies and small children immunized, I personally have seen ZERO cases of serious effects from vaccines and hundreds of serious effects from the diseases.I sincerely hope that I am dead myself before the effects are seen from this movement against vaccines that is so popular in the last few years.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 23, 2000.

It has been suggested, perhaps in the NEJM, that the multiple childhood vaccinations prevalent in western countries may be responsible for the profound increases in asthma/allergies observed in the child and adult populations in the West as contrasted to the the low incidence of of asthma/allergies in countries with low vaccination rates.

It has also been suggested that some of the "Gulf War Syndrome" may be attributable to the multitude of vaccinations given simultaneously to soldiers in the Gulf.

In the past twenty years, especially with the advent of AIDS, it has become evermore apparent how complex the immune system is and how variable it may be from individual to individual. As a child I remember going to a shoe store where they would blithely x-ray everybody's feet to determine shoe size. No shields, no little room or wall to step behind. Hi-tech thinking of the times. Imagine the rads. Thirty years from now they'll laugh at how crude our understanding was, and how unfortunate it was that some folks got vaccinations. In the meantime, there is Zyrtec, Allegra, Claritin, and those machines you use on your kid to atomize the albuterol and deliver it to the lungs. Still, childhood mortalities are way, way, down and you don't see the tragic row after row of the old "iron lungs" of the polio epidemics.

-- charles (clb@watervalley.net), May 24, 2000.

Charles, it has also been suggested that the multitude of asthma/allergies in our western cultures is due to the fact that our civilized bodies are not fighting diseases as they used to. Anything prior to antibiotics (late 1940's??) was life threatening and required an individual to marshall all it's antibodies to the max! Today, some people's immune systems react to lesser threats, and in fact *overreact* with asthma/allergies. So it might not be vaccines,in particular. Just another theory...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 24, 2000.

I have been plagued by chronic allergies (NOT "sensitivities") for nearly all my life and about a decade ago they got really bad again...that's one reason for our huge garden and our wanting to raise our own meat and milk without antibiotics and other drugs and chemicals...

I have nearly died from things that other folks count as "common every day" occurances...

So what's good for one is not good for all. I will be 48 years old this Saturday and have not had all my immunizations because they would likely have killed me...at least I had a sensible GP when I was a baby!

I can't take antibiotics so when I get most anything now I have to ride it out...I am allergic to so many things its better for me to stay away from doctors and hospitals as much as possible!!! Thank goodness I found a wonderful GP about 15 years ago who has a speciality on the side in allergies and he saved my life a decade ago when other specialists were still experimenting on me!!! I went to the best doctors at a big university hospital in a big city near here and they sent me to other top specialists....and it was the GP who eventually found the problem and saved my life!

So I'm going to continue to try and keep things as natural as possible around here....that's what works for ME.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), May 24, 2000.

Suzy, it sounds like we're in the same boat. I'll be 48 in August. I've had the allergies my whole life to one degree or another. about 10 years ago I almost died from laughing gas(no, I didn't almost laugh myself to death). If you locked me in a room with car wax, certain furniture polish or floor wax, I wouldn't make it out. There are times when I'm around scented candles or potpouri or perfume that I can't even hold my head up. Perfume going to Wal-Mart Dollar Gerneral Store and Family Dollor Store is torture. I just tell people I'm allergic to shopping. Have you tried Echinecea, I don't have allergies to herbs, it works really well for me, when I have a cold or virus, it doesn't last near as long as for most people. I can't even take the stuff I'm suppsed to take to help detoxify with because it makes me too sick. I can't lose weight at a normal rate either. Sonda, see above response, has the same problems. It seems more and more people are being bothered, too, not to the degree that we are, though. I know there are support groups in some big cities, but I don't know how to get in touch with them to see what they have to offer. Even though people don't have the same terrible reactions that we do, they don't realize what these chemicals are doing to them. In a way it's a blessing to stop doing all that terrible stuff to ourselves. Check out www.ourlittleplace.com it's a website all about environmental illness or what I call chemical poisoning. There's a whole page on perfume addiction, etc. Green Magma is helpful for me and so is grapefruit juice, they detoxify. I work out 5 days a week and eat super healthy (natural). I have a whole bunch of healthy recipes, if you'd like a couple favorite ones e-mail me. Broccoli and spinach our of the garden today. Yummm!

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), May 24, 2000.

Another e-mail address but, at least this one works. I have alot of drug allergies and sensitivities. I also do not have health insurance for reasons beyond my control. I rely on herbs and have found that I am healthier. I even treat my fibromyalgia with herbs and rest. I eventually become sensitive or allergic to all medications. At least all I've taken on a continuing basis. I also found that spending time in a doctor's waiting room was hazardous to my health! I came home with more than I went with. I understand that this approach is not for everyone and if I needed to, I have a family doctor and hospital. But for those of us who need it, alternative medicine is appropriate. When I visited my daughter and son-in-law in England, I noticed alot of herbal shops. My daughter explained that herbs play an important part in healing there. I found this very interesting.

-- Cheryl Cox (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

Cheryl, what do you use to treat your FMS? My wife suffers from it as well, and runs the county support group. Unfortunately she suffers from stein-lethanthol (sp?) and COPD as well, so it gets difficult to figure out what is causing what at times! But if she took every drug the doctor wanted her to take, she wouldn't be able to eat! Seriously!

So we try to eat as healthy as possible, grow and can what we can, and avoid other foods altogeher.

Also, has anyone out there tried taking alfalfa tablets for allergies? And did it work for you?

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), May 25, 2000.

Cindy, hello. My four children have been immunized for the standard life-threatening childhood illnesses; those that you and I were immunized for. My science interferes with my spiritual on questions like this, since my background is in Microbiology, but I am also sort of an earthmotherhippie. My last two children were born at home with a lay midwife, and yet, before they were two weeks old, I hauled them to the hospital for the PKU test. All four of my kids had chicken pox last year, and I didn't consider immunizing for that. These are kids with one incidence of ear infection among all four of their lives, who eat a healthy dose of dirt daily in the name of hard play.

May I add, lest it not be implied strongly enough, that of course these are breast fed babies. An important point.

I will consider the Hepatitus B series when the children are nearing puberty, and as young adults they can make educated decisions of their own. Just because there is a shot for it, like flu shots, doesn't mean we all need to jump to them. Some day there will be shots for dozens and dozens of illnesses, what happened to healthy diet and immune system?

I am sorry for your complications. I am also grateful for the eradication of smallpox.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), May 25, 2000.

Newborns are now given hepatitis B before they leave the hospital! It is not a serious childhood illness! Most times, it is contracted by lifestyle choices as a teen or adult. I chose to let my youngest be vaccinated for it because of pressure from the pediatrician. I often wonder whether it was a wise decision. I think it would be a good idea to fully inform parents of both sides of the immunizations issues and ask about family history of allergies/conditions the office visit BEFORE the one where they hand you the consent form to sign! But then, after reading all the risks involved, many parents just might not agree to it. And the government would risk losing control.

-- Jean (schiszik@tbcnet.com), May 25, 2000.

Hep B is given to small kids because it is a series of three shots, and the infants are in for the 2, 4, 6 month DTP and polio anyway. But I just declined it. Before my kids are (gasp) sexually active, they can be informed and we will discuss it then. I also requested acellular oral polio before that was the norm, and I make two nurses come in at once to give shots so that there is no delay. I bring a sucker to make it easier, and generally they used to find me a pain in the rear.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), May 25, 2000.

I would not blindly have my children immunized- we did not do the DPT and other "standard " ones. I know personally a number of people who have had serious health repurcussions to their immunizations. A serious problem is that the medical industry will not admit that there are serious reactions to these shots, and therefore no records are kept of the incidence of reactions. Therefore, there is officially no problem.

-- Jim (jiminwis@yahoo.com), May 25, 2000.

We just happen to be studying the Immune System at school this week (along with, oh, Oncology, and Radiology, but that's another looooong story...good thing this is only Terminology and not Med school!). Immunizations for infants was a hot topic in the classroom this a.m., believe me!

It was suggested that infants now get their shots extremely early, without any opportunity for their own immune systems to get up and running. Perhaps immunization later (still before school?) might be better? Since they have some immunity from their moms (and perhaps more, if they breast feed for a while), what do you folk out there with the background and knowledge think of this? It sounded like it was a plausible explanation for why there are some of the problems currently, but I am clueless. Your thoughts? thx..

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 25, 2000.

Whatever do you mean that the medical industry will not admit there are serious problems with vaccines????????????????????? It upsets me to hear that anybody even thinks this to be true!!!! All one has to do is READ the handouts given to parents as informed consent to each vaccine..the statistics are all there and they do make folks nervous, thinking that your child may be the one in zillion who dies from side effects...Do you actually think that we, who have devoted our entire lives to SAVING lives would blithely go about sweeping serious complications under the carpet?????Do you think that after multiple YEARS of education and practice that we are the dupes of the pharmaceutical companies and believe everything they tell us??????Do you have any clue how many people died every year from measles,chickenpox,polio,H-flu type B,diptheria,tetanus,rubella,hepatitis B,smallpox,etc.etc. before vaccines came along??????Do you think that in 1880 farm people who led healthy life styles,& homeschooled their children did not get these diseases??????? Were there no diseases in breastfed babies???? Come on, that is just foolishness. Go read a medical book published before 1910 and then tell me that vaccines are the tool of the devil or a giant kill-the-babies cover up.Nobody should get their kids vaccinated for anything unless they have discussed all of the possibilities with their health care provider.If you do not trust your provider, then get another one, or go to medical school yourself.Whenever folks get into half truths about something, there's always an increase in believers.Some kids WILL die or have serious complications from vaccines..the literature is quite clear on that, yet the NUMBERS prove that MORE kids will die from the actual diseases.To infer that we, the medical people,are hiding higher numbers is absolutely disgraceful.

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 25, 2000.

To lend a little validity to Lesley's statement--I once was required to move a cemetery in Lousiville, Kentucky. I moved an entire family, ages 0 thru 45. Most of the family's children died in a small pox outbreak in the early 1800's.Yes, people died, homesteaders died and medicine couldn't save them. Although we are told that small pox was conquered by vaccine--I have heard rumour that it is alive again in 3 world nations and the vaccine is useless against it. I am not a biologist but I am an educated realist. I understand germs mutate ! Whatever we do to a germ or gene to cure something today will cause it to grow stronger and kill us somewhere down the road. People die, Children die, it is a part of life as much as the act of conception or birth. Imho, it is better to embrace death than to inject partial deadly diseases into our bodys, but in the end it is a personal decision. As long as a child is under the age of consent that decision belongs to their parents. It is a mockery to God and civil rights for any form of government to interfere in parental rights and require children to be innoculated against the will of their parents. My "in house" medical expert has educated me to the fact that by allowing certain "ill" people to procreate that we are destroying the gene pool. (I am speaking mainly of diabetes.) There is no superior form of life that is immune to to catastrophy,disease, injury or acts of stupity. Medicine can never overcome fate. In the end no immunization can save you from your inevitable fate. These decisions are better left to personal choice. I have resigned myself to the fact that my early childhood polio vaccine will cause my death. I truly wish that desicion had been left up to me. I think discussions like this one make us a stronger, more informed people that are better able to decide which road to send our children down.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 26, 2000.

I live in an Amish community in northeastern Ohio, so I'm in a position to see both sides. The State of Ohio requires certain immunizations before children are allowed into public school. Period. But if you want to home school or use private / religious schools, the State remains silent. So the Amish kids that are in public school are immunized, the ones in Amish schools (private) are not. I guess we may be protected with the "herd immunity" that Lesley mentioned. The children who are not immunized may benefit from those that are because there have been no contagious outbreaks.

The Amish have a boatload of home remedies. One Amish woman in particular who lives down the street has some Gawd-awful tasting stuff for just about everything. As well as your better known herbs and roots. We affectionately call her "witchy-poo". But there is a practical limit. She prescribed one remedy for a child with a toothache. The mother was convinced of it's cure-all properties and did nothing further, eventhough the child was complaining of constant pain. Three days later, the child was in the hospital with an abcess and one whopping infection. The attending physician was livid, and rightly so.

So, for many of your aches and pains, there's witchy-poo. For everything else, there's the doctor's office. Smart people here use both. (sound's like a commercial I've heard)

Lesley, if you're still reading this thread, I understand that there may be a medical issue with the timing, spacing and volume (how many at once) of vaccinations of pre-school children, not their necessity. (:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), May 26, 2000.

Timing is an issue and has been for quite a few years.We used to give MMR (measles,mumps,rubella) at 18 mos, 15 mos 12 months..it kept changing because it was obvious that the measles part was not 100% effective for life...it was thought that if we waited awhile and gave the vaccine later, that the babies immune system would be more mature and therefore better able to mount a response...nope...it is dangerous to wait until the kids are old enough to make up their own minds..the majority of deaths occur in ages 3 and under with epidemics..problem, problem....I disgaree with the current posture of all these shots at once..I think it is cruel..I would rather bring a kid in once a month for four months..however, folks aren't good at keeping appointments, so they get it all at once..yuck! I think you will see this change over the next four years to less shots at one time..it may be a cultural thing, but I do not believe that we need to torture babies to get them immunized!

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 26, 2000.

Thanks, Lesley.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), May 26, 2000.

Joel, Good idea we wont let the diabetics reproduce, hey while were at it we will stop the jews to, and the blacks, and while were at it we will work on the whites that have brown hair [ always liked blondes better any way]excuse me but i have to go get ride of my three kids as there dad is a diabetic.People tried that 70years ago thought we learned from that horrible episode.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), May 26, 2000.

A brief glance at our family cemetary shows a lot of deaths at an early age, and death certificates show the pox and influenza as having caused many deaths, and others who dies of measles and whooping cough and "consumption".

I received all of the basic immunizations as a child, including smallpox and polio. I received most of them over again when I entered the nursing field, and additionally received Hep. B. I also get a work provided flu shot each year.

My daughter received all of the suggested immunizations, including HIB and Hepatits B, the last because I work in a hospital and worry about what might some home with me. While my immune system is "stong enough to take over small countries and has been known to attack squirrels in the yard ; o )", my family is not exposed to the things I am on a daily basis, and therefore does not have the opportunity to build up their immune system.

Jes will begin clinicals in a hospital next fall, and is one of the few in her class who does not need to go get these immunizations now. And if her program did not require the immunizations - I would. Health care workers get coughed and sneezed on, not to mention the constant cleaning of vomit, urine and feces. People bleed, they exude pus and other "interesting" substances - I figure it's a slow day when I only have 5 body fluids on my uniform and shoes! And that doesn't take into account the combative patients - the ones who spit, scratch, hit, thow things at you, etc... (Gee, I love this job!)

I personally don't think immunization injections are cruel, but this is from a women who sticks needles in people for a living, donates blood on a regular basis (and that's an 18 g. needle, not a itty-bitty 22 or 25 like for immunizations) and allows new lab tech trainees to practice on her (good veins), so maybe it's just me, and you can take it with a grain of salt if you like. I think the kids are more frightened by the noise, smells, strange place, having a portion of their bodies bared to a stranger, being held tightly, etc... They are also in tune to what is going on in the parents body and when Mom's heart rate, respirations, etc... go up, so do the volume of their howls. A little bit of forethought by the parents would help - clothes you don't have to wrestle the child out of, remaining calm and matter of fact, helping to hold the child firmly and securely, but not in a half nelson... My nephews were in for their shots the same day I got mine repeated and we let them come in and watch - they weren't about to wimp out if Aunt Polly didn't, and after theirs, they went out to the waiting room and told their friends that it wasn't that bad. Attitude helps!

I don't use any drugs on a daily basis - herbs or otherwise. I'll take a couple of aspirins if rehydrating doesn't cure a headache, and I love my MS pump when I have a kidney stone, but that's about my limit. Oh yeah, I'll eat a couple of those red and white pepermint candies if I get an upset stomach. I rarely see the MD and have never seen any type of alternative doc, though Pop and Hubby both go to the chiropractor. I've lived with this body for over forty years now - I've learned that if I do dumb things, like try to lift things I shouldn't, over-indulge in certain foods, try to go too long without sleep - my body will let me know I've been bad. I don't stress over aches and pains, or a day or two of constipation or diarrhea, or a runny nose, or a low grade temp - unless they are combined with other danger signals. When I do go to the doc, I have a clearly written list of my symptoms, how long I've had each one, what I was doing before I got sick, etc.. (If health care workers could read minds, we would all be making big money on the psychic network, not wiping butts for a living.)

I don't stress much over dying, either. Never heard tell of anyone yet who had managed to avoid it completly. I have a big, long, ugly family history of cancer (Mom d. @ 52, Uncle @ 28, Granny, uncle, great aunts and uncles, plus a couple of currently living ones), so I figure that it will probably get me in the end. Altho I know a doc who attributes all death to heart failure - his premise is "you die when your heart stops beating". Whatever, it doesn't matter, we all gotta go of something.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), May 26, 2000.

It is not very nice to twist someone's words around to make them sound racial or prejudiced. I never meant to infer we stop people from having children. If I were diabetic, I would at least like someone to tell me that all my children will be diabetic and all their children will be diabetic. I would choose to not have children ! The last time I checked I still had the right to chose for myself if I wished to pollute the earth with disease. If I ever decide to start killing off people---don't worry--I will be an equal opportunity killer and shoot everyone on a "first come,first shot basis" regardless of race,religion,age or gender !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 27, 2000.

Joel, if someone told a person with diabetes that all of their kids would have the illness, they would be wrong...Diabetes, like many other illnesses runs in families VS being predictable to generations such as Cystic Fibrosis...If both parents have the CF genes, each pregnancy has a one in four chance of producing a child with CF.If one or both parents have diabetes, their children and grandchildren are at a higher risk of developing the disease, but it carries no definitive risk like CF.Insulin-dependent diabetes carries a slightly higher risk of running in families than does the non-insulin dependent version that more often occurs in middle aged people.One can see a single diabetic in four generations or one can see several..there is no predictable degree of genetic carry over for the disease..I love it when people have the correct information...

-- Lesley Chasko (martchas@gateway.net), May 27, 2000.

Right information ? The experts say that "if" we find a cure for aids that it won't matter. Diabetes will overcome the population in 16 generations. With no "clean" plasma there is no insulin. The overwhelming opinion of chemical biologists is--there is no hope for a cure of diabetes. That prompted my opinion of the "depleting the gene pool". I meant no harm or insult to anyone. Just the facts ma'am, just the facts.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), May 27, 2000.

I use herbs on a fairly regular basis. I take 120 mg. gingko biloba daily for circulation problems and it helps me, I swear by it. I have used peppermint for IBS with excellent results. I use ginger and/or cayenne as anti inflamatory medicine for pain and stiffness. Also use ginger for stomach problems when they arise. I have used garlic, goldenseal and echinacea for varying problems from time to time. Also have used st. johns wart now and then when suffering from SAD (cabin fever). I love going to the doctors (not) and having him say how good my blood pressure is and then I tell him I take my garlic and he sort of mumbles almost inaudibly how he has "heard" that it can help! I only do the MD thing every few years for a checkup and on the rare occasions I can't figure out what's wrong. I also keep a bottle of coloidal silver handy just in case. Can't comment on kids/immunizations as I don't have any.

-- Bob Johnson (backwoods_bob_2000@yahoo.com), May 27, 2000.

Hi Cindy,

I really believe that the allergies and chemical problems run in the family whether you receive Immunizations or not. I believe that we have too many chemicals now adays that pollute our systems and make it impossible for our bodies to detox, especially people who are sensitive. My sister has three children. One was pronounced deaf. With the withdrawal of milk and adjustments from a chiropractor, she no longer needs her hearing aids. However,if she cheats and eats ice cream, she can not hear. The second child is intelligent but will revert to disfunctional when she is near a chemical sorce (example, print on a T-shirt) The first two had immunizations. The last one she chose not to immunize. This child is also showing signs of numberous allergies. This baby was also breast fed. In this case, both sides were tried and shown to be the same. My sister worries when she takes my niece out, especially the community pool and like places. They have a support group allerkid@aol.com.

My son always had eczema. I would keep asking, "What is wrong with him?" The answers varied but not once was food allergy mentioned.(My husband gets upset when I go up to stangers and say my son had red cheeks when he was little and it was food allergies) As time went on, his behavior wasn't the greatest. A loner, impulsive, disruptive. I could no longer get him out of bed in the morning without a fight. He complained of headaches, stomachaches. One doctor couldn't find what was wrong with him but wanted him checked for ADD.(And we wonder why so many kids are on Ritalin) As luck would have it, my sister was searching for answers for her daughter and sent me information on New Building Syndrome. Yes, we had built a new house and were poisoned by the chemicals. (Partical board, paint & stain, carpets, etc.)

I pulled up all the carpets, sealed the particile and put hardwood floors down using a green sealer. I keep the windows cracked, even at 20 below. I also have air purifiers. I cleaned out the pantry, throwing everything processed out. Nothing with pesticides, preservitives or food coloring. (We sometimes cheat but prefer not feeling sick) We started taking suppliments. After so many doctors, I have finally found a homeopathic who I believe will heal me. The idea being, chemicals messed me up, homeopathic will straighten me out. We rarely have to go to a regular MD but I have found one who is open. My chiropractor was the most helpful.

My son's school no longer sprays preventive pesticides and uses a green cleaner in school. (everyone thinks I'm a nut)My son no longer has migrain headaches after school. I'm dreading the next couple of years when fellow students start wearing perfume and colone. Then I'll have to go to the high school for cleaners. I hope that puberty will help since men detox faster then women.

Sorry this was so long. It is hard to find like minds. By the way, the new house was built on 6 acres to keep my horse in the backyard and with the thought of living better. Ironic, isn't it?

-- Dee Tur (gdgtur@goes.com), May 27, 2000.

Cindy-Medicine is not an exact science. People react differentlyto medications due to many factors both physiological and psychological. I have strong feelings about immunizations. i am old enough to remember the diseases that most children never get because we have immunizations. I remember the terrible scars of smallpox and the terrifying sight of people in iron lungs who were victims of polio. i remember the summers we couldnt go out to play or swim in the pool or local streams because of a polio outbreak. you bet my kids had immunizations.

-- susie stretton (nightsong@beci.net), May 27, 2000.

With six children, the question of the efficacy and need for immunizations has been a big decision for us. With the first few children I never questioned it. Later, I began to read more and more about not immunizing.

Here's something very important to consider that came from a website suggesting that you NOT immunize. It said that if your children are not immunized, they risk getting the illnesses/diseases from other children who were recently given immunizations/vaccinations.

I definitely don't have the answer to this question, but I wanted to throw this out there for consideration. It seems either way, you risk having your child contract one of these problems.

-- Tracie Boellner (kahmom@frontiernet.net), May 28, 2000.

I am so encouraged when I can read the posts from likeminded Christians.To the others who are offended,we all come to where we are by different journeys and I know I have certainly not"arrived",but I cannot deny my faith either,or hide the facts of what has worked for me,no more than you can hide yours.be blessed.There is a way to homeopathicly vaccinate your children,and a yearly schedule of how and when to do that.I attend classes to learn these things but have not done this particular course yet,so maybe you could contact your naturopath.I'm sure these remedies are only available through them anyway.

-- teri murphy (mrs_surf2000@yahoo.ca), November 15, 2000.

Joel- My husband and his family members have type two diabetes.He controls his with diet & excersize. Their genetic predisposition is against a sendentary lifestlye and our western diet, not towards diabetes.Blame our awful western diet & lifestyle ,not genetics for that one.

I don't see it as a genetic"flaw"at all, but as a good predisposition toward healthy living.Type one is different.Most people have type two.

BTY-his doctor recently told him to continue keeping himself healthy bc in 10-15 yrs there will be a cure.Don't know if that's good or bad,just refuting you one statement.

-- sharon wt (wildflower@ekyol.com), November 15, 2000.