It's here, it's here! May 24th has finally come!!! What is this crazy woman ranting about now, you may ask? Well, my friends, it's the Left Behind series! The Indwelling hit bookstores today and yours truly scooped up a copy ASAP

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000

Answers

Oops...see? I'm so excited, I'm hitting submit buttons at random! LOL I'll be reading it tonight and will let you know how it is when I'm done...which should be in ohhhh about 3 hours! :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), May 24, 2000.

Thought I'd give a follow-up....

Read the book and I must tell you...reading this series makes me really hope I don't have to go through all of that! Sure, I'd love to see Jesus build His kingdom on Earth but I think I'll watch from Above, thank you. :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 04, 2000.

It could be that the information that I have been given about this "Left Behind" series of books is incorrect. If so, I am sorry. But I feel that I must caution all Catholics here, based on what I have been told.

As I understand it, this series is a totally fictional work, based on a certain Protestant Fundamentalist's beliefs about the "end times." There are various problems involved here:
--- The various Fundamentalist theologies of the end of the world (rapture, millenial reign of Christ, tribulation, etc.) were NEVER believed by Christians throughout history. These theories date only to the early 1800s, when an imaginative Protestant clergyman misinterpreted some verses from St. Paul and Revelation. Therefore, the basic ideas -- i.e., foreseen future events -- in this series of books is CONTRARY to what Catholics have believed about the "final things" of human history on this earth.

--- I think that it is not a good idea for ANY Christian (let alone Catholics) to read such books, because they inflict an unhealthy fear related to things that are not going to happen. They also tend to keep people constantly thinking about the end of the world and looking for signs of it, fooling them into thinking they can predict the end -- contrary to Jesus's statements.

--- We Catholics are called upon simply to keep in the back of our minds the fact that the end of the world (or the end of our individual lives) can some ONE SECOND from now, and that therefore we need to be prepared by staying in a state of sanctifying grace -- sacramentally confessing our mortal sins. If we keep our souls "clean," we need never think about ANY of the matters so sensationally (and unreliably) depicted in fictional writings like "Left Behind."

--- The author of these books is Tim LaHaye, and I have read that he and/or his wife (Beverly?) have been involved in some kind of anti-Catholic activity. I have even been told that at least one of the Left Behind books contains vile anti-Catholic propaganda. I can't recall what it was, but perhaps it was a depicting of the pope as the anti-Christ or some other tool of the devil mentioned in the Book of Revelation.

--- Summing things up, I recommend that we use our "spare" reading time to stick to reliable Catholic works -- the Bible, the Catechism, the lives and writings of the saints and Fathers of the Church, any writings published by the Vatican, etc..

Deo gratias. Cure

-- Cure of Ars (jvianney@ars.org), June 04, 2000.

Cure, My understanding is you've never read the series. It would be hard to criticize it without having read it yourself, wouldn't it? I found out about this series, in fact, on EWTN. The series is, yes, fiction but it is based on the book of Revelations. The authors, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, in fact, heavily relied on the Bible to write these books. And while reading some of them, I have actually went to my Bible to see if that was really there. And lo and behold...it was! The authors are devout Christians and these aren't the only books they have written. They, also, write non-fiction books that are Christian based. I don't see any harm in reading this particular series because the main theme in them is don't wait until it's too late to come to Him because you never know when it will happen.

Maybe I'm mistaken but don't Catholics believe the book of Revelations? That's what this series is about. It's the story of those left behind and the struggles they face during the opening of the seals. Yes, that's fiction. But when you have locusts, earthquakes and everything else that is described in Revelations...well, that's right out of the Bible. The story wasn't a Protestant Fundamentalist's idea. It came to Jerry B. Jenkins one day while he was flying in a plane. He's a writer that happens to be a Christian that happens to read the Bible and was inspired.

This series has not inflicted any unhealthy fear in me. The only fear I have is of God's Wrath. That I will try very hard not to be on the end of. Do I ever wonder about signs that signal the end times? Sure, sometimes...but I don't obsess over it. All that is, is my overactive curiousity. I certainly don't think that I can predict when the end will be. Only He knows.

And as far as what a person reads in their spare time....I read. ALOT. Believe it or not, I read fiction, non-fiction, Catholic materials, the Bible, the Cathechism, magazines. I enjoy learning about my religion but I also enjoy taking the time to "escape" for a little while. It's one little luxury I allow myself. Maybe that doesn't make me a devout Catholic. I don't know. But I don't think He has a problem with it.

For anyone that would like to read more about the Left Behind series or their authors...visit www.leftbehind.com You might be surprised. God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 04, 2000.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thes 4:16-18)

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Corinthians 15:51-53)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 05, 2000.

When a Christian usually lives trying to make his thoughts, his words and his actions be God-oriented, I don't think he or she should be preocupied about the coming of the Lord. If he or she lives the way I said above he or she lives in the presence and loving care of the Heavenly Father and must feel happy and secure about this presence. In the life of St. Luis de Gonzaga we read that when he was a very young man one day he as playing "bolos" with some of his friends. One of them said: Suppose we were told that the end of the world is coming in about two minutes, what would you do? One of them answered: I'll run to the chapel and pray intensely for my salvation; another answered: I'd would look for a priest to hear my confession, Still another: I'd fall on my knees, lift my arms to heaven and wait for what is coming. Luis did not say anything. So his companions asked: well, Luis, what would you do? And very calmy he answered: I'd go on playing bolos.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 05, 2000.

Greetings, Jackie A. I need to respond to some of what you wrote. Please don't mistake it as a personal attack. You seem to be a very good person.

You started by saying this: "My understanding is you've never read the series. It would be hard to criticize it without having read it yourself, wouldn't it? I found out about this series, in fact, on EWTN."
You must have forgotten that I did not criticize the series. Instead I passed along criticism from what I believed to be a reliable source, and I apologized in advance if it turned out to be unjust criticism. However, what you said is awfully ironic, J.A.. It was on EWTN last week that I heard two former protestant clergymen, now Catholics, bemoaning the success of this book series -- because it is not a healthy thing for Christians to be reading, they said. I am almost certain that they raised the anti-Catholic/anti-papal aspect of the series (or past works by Mr. Lahaye). I don't understand why you did not mention that subject in your reply to me, since I raised it last time. I thought that you would say either, "No, there is nothing anti-Catholic at all," or "Yes, it has anti-Catholic statements, but they don't affect me."

J.A., you continued: "The series is, yes, fiction but it is based on the book of Revelations. The authors, Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, in fact, heavily relied on the Bible to write these books. And while reading some of them, I actually went to my Bible to see if that was really there. And lo and behold...it was!"
But the very title of the series, "Left Behind," is tied to that 19th-century misinterpretation of scriptures to which I alluded last time. It actually involves an artificial merging of parts of Revelation with a pair of verses in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. The fundamentalist idea of a "rapture" and a coming "millennial" reign, with folks being "left behind," is CONTRARY to traditional Catholic belief. As I stated, not even protestants from 1520 to 1820 believed such things.
We are NOW IN the millennium, which is a symbolic term that refers to the entire Christian era -- the reign of Christ -- from the Ascension until the coming of Jesus at the end of the world. This has been believed by Catholic Christians from the earliest centuries (though it was never "solemnly defined," because it never needed to be). By the way, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin "rapiemur," which means "we will be caught up" (literally, "taken"). Ironically, this word is found in the famous (400 a.d.) Latin Vulgate translation of the New Testament by the Catholic priest, St. Jerome. In this (1 Thes 4) passage about the end of the world (which you too quoted, J.A.), St. Jerome translated the original Greek as: "17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus" -- "16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."
So what I have been trying to say is that this book series has bad theology on which we ought not to spend money and time. Any writer can go to one of the few "apocalyptic" books of the Bible that have tons of symbols in them (Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation) and come up with an imaginative explanation of the symbols. Then any reader (such as yourself) can read that writer's explanation, check it against the Bible verses, become convinced that the author is probably right, and begin to live his/her life accordingly. But when this kind of thing is done, both the author and the reader are playing a deadly game -- private interpretation of the scriptures without recourse to the Catholic Church's Traditional understanding of the passages involved.

J.A., you continued: "The authors are devout Christians and these aren't the only books they have written. They, also, write non-fiction books that are Christian based."
Yes, I know that they have experience, but I cannot call them "devout Christians" if they really are anti-Catholic and anti-papal, calling the current (or a future pope) the anti-Christ, implying that Catholics are not Christians, or making other bigoted slurs. I hope that the report that they have done this is incorrect.

J.A., you continued: "I don't see any harm in reading this particular series because the main theme in them is don't wait until it's too late to come to Him because you never know when it will happen."
Even if that is "the main theme," there can be much harm in reading the series if there are OTHER themes that can be damaging to a Catholic's faith or that tend to poison a non-Catholic against our Church. I still do not know with certainty if there are such sub-themes, though I have to start with a presumption that the two men on EWTN were being truthful in warning against the series. Even what you mention as the "main theme" seems to paint a very incomplete picture, since it seems to conflict with St. John's admonition that we do the right thing ("come to Him" and abide in Him) mainly out of love, not mainly out of fear.

J.A., you continued: "Maybe I'm mistaken but don't Catholics believe the book of Revelations? That's what this series is about. It's the story of those left behind and the struggles they face during the opening of the seals. Yes, that's fiction. But when you have locusts, earthquakes and everything else that is described in Revelations...well, that's right out of the Bible. The story wasn't a Protestant Fundamentalist's idea. It came to Jerry B. Jenkins one day while he was flying in a plane. He's a writer that happens to be a Christian that happens to read the Bible and was inspired."
Yes, a Catholic WROTE the book of Revelation and many Catholic monks COPIED the book thousands of times through the centuries. The book of Revelation, though, was one of several that a heretic named Martin Luther wanted to have removed from the New Testament -- though his colleagues talked him out of it. Millions of Catholics every year read and revere the Book of Revelation. However, it is a very difficult book to understand properly, and we ordinary Catholics have to rely on helps from the saints, popes, and bishops through the ages to understand the symbols. Otherwise, we will be totally confused or going off on all kinds of flights of fancy and far-fetched ideas, as has happened left and right in some protestant circles for about 200 years. To understand Revelation better, folks can read two recent, reliable books about it -- one by Fr. Alfred McBride and one by Dr. Scott Hahn, who shows that the book is tied closely to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Allusions to the heavenly liturgy, with the Lamb of God found again and again, are spread throughout the book. The book's main theme was not to scare people or to make them think about horrific future events, but to give them hope and courage to withstand the persecutions of the past, present, and future -- because of the victory of Christ.

J.A., you continued: "And as far as what a person reads in their spare time.... I read. A LOT. Believe it or not, I read fiction, non-fiction, Catholic materials, the Bible, the Cathechism, magazines. I enjoy learning about my religion but I also enjoy taking the time to "escape" for a little while. It's one little luxury I allow myself. Maybe that doesn't make me a devout Catholic. I don't know. But I don't think He has a problem with it."
If this book series is truly anti-Catholic, then no Catholic with common sense (least of all a parent, who needs to save money for the kids) ought to be spending money that supports bigots. I think that it is fine for Catholics to buy religious or secular books written by non-Catholics who respect our Church -- provided that a couple of things are true: (1) the Catholics' faith is totally unshakeable by bad theology they may encounter, and (2) they have already read, or are in the process of gradually reading, the basic Catholic works that I listed last time. Time is short, and money is usually short too. There is none of either of them available to waste on bad stuff.

J.A., you finished by saying: "For anyone that would like to read more about the Left Behind series or their authors ... visit www.leftbehind.com. You might be surprised."
I did look around at the site, but did not find anything helpful to our present discussion, except some confirmation of my previous statement that a non-Catholic misunderstanding of "end times" is involved here.

I just found that Karl Keating (eminent apologist, author of "Catholicism and Fundamentalism," founder of "Catholic Answers, Inc.," etc., etc.) wrote the following answer at the EWTN "experts" forum on March 23, 2000, in response to a question about "Left Behind:"
"... the current idea of the Rapture was developed only in the nineteenth century, by the Dispensationalist movement within Protestantism. No Christians prior to that time had any inkling that there might be such a thing. Even the Protestant Reformers didn't believe in the [current idea of the] Rapture. Tim LaHaye is not to be considered a reliable source on theological matters. When he pastored a church here in San Diego, he was known as a strong anti-Catholic."
Also just found -- a year ago, a woman wrote these words in a question to EWTN: "I am sure you are aware of the 'Left Behind' books coauthored by Tim LaHaye. A friend gave them to me to read. The second book has left a bad taste in my mouth before page 100. There is a 'dig' against Catholics and our doctrine."
In April, another woman wrote to EWTN -- and I URGE you to notice here one of the problems this series is causing --: "I am a 'new' Catholic (RCIA three years ago) and I have never heard about this topic of Rapture before. My Protestant friends are right now obsessed with it as there is a series of books out entitled 'Left Behind' about Christ just whisking all the Christians out of the air and then envoking 7 years of trials (as in the book of Revelation). To say it scares the h__l out of you is an understatement. My best friend gave me the first book of this series and I was shocked. I knew something wasn't right here. So what does a Catholic do? I prayed, read Revelation (which I do not understand), said the Lord's Prayer, Hail Marys, the Creeds, talked to our priest and then read the comments here. I returned to my friend and said 'I don't think the Gospel is intended to scare anyone, I believe God wants us to love and be saved through His Son's death and Resurrection, not because we have read into a symbolic book by one of His followers.' It is through His Cross and Resurrection we are set us free. He is the Savior of the world until His coming again. I hope my response was not inaccurate ... I believe there are a lot of Christians believing that this Rapture idea is the 'gospel.'"

Some day soon, I hope to re-read (and suggest that everyone read) the Catholic Answers "tract" on the "rapture" at http://www.catholic.com/answers/tracts/premid.htm

Deo gratias. Cure


-- Cure of Ars (jvianney@ars.org), June 06, 2000.

Cure, While my first reaction was to be offended at the implication that I spend money friviously when I should be saving for my children, as I'm quite sure you can't know my personal finances, I took a deep breath and His words popped in my head. And so, I shall turn the other cheek.

I apologize for not having responded to you regarding any anti- Catholic sentiments expressed in this series. I'm sure you know that when you respond on here, all you can see is the first message that was posted. So, I tried to go off of memory from your post and I'm sorry I missed that one. I can tell you that in the books, there is a sort of one world faith presiding. There are priests and religious leaders spoken of in some of the books but I, personally, just went into reading these as a story. Not a basis or guideline of my religion. Or a Bible. Simply a novel. They are advertised as fiction books and so, that's what I looked at them as. It didn't make me view the Pope or priests any differently.

When I posted the original message here, I did so because I know of other Catholics that have been reading this series and were just as engrossed in them as I was. There are people on this board that I have come to think of as friends. At times, I have felt much love and patience here. There have been gentle corrections or harmless debates that have gone on. But they were done so gently and peacefully, that one had to wonder if they were just corrected or not. Also, there have been questions asked and answered in a way that is simply informative. And then there are times that one comes away feeling as if they were just slapped in the face. I have seen outright maliciousness on this board. And I have seen those that act as if they are above all the others. I don't understand that and hope I never do. Because, after all, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Oh, before I forget....Cure, you brought something up in a previous post and I found some information I wanted to share. You scolded those that look for signs of the end. Here is what I found...

From www.novia.net/~todd/index.html

Some people take great exception to the idea of anyone looking forward to the rapture. One popular refrain scolds rapturists for being "so heavenly minded they're of no earthly good." Is being heavenly minded really a problem? From my observation, the opposite appears to be true. I can't find a single scripture in the New Testament where Jesus or any other author warned us not to get too worked up over Christ's return. In several passages we are commanded to watch and wait:

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36)

Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober. (1 Thessalonians 5:6)

Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Matthew 25:13)

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:10)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Thank you, Jackie A.
I have just a few short notes this time.

I am somewhat relieved that you are convinced that your reading of the "Left Behind" book series is not adversely affecting your Catholic faith, that you know that the series is not Catholic, and that you are not taking it as reliable "theology," but only as entertainment. But, under those circumstances, I can only say that the book series probably should not have been raised as a subject on this "Catholic" board. Due to the facts I detailed last time, I have to conclude that Catholics should not be reading these books, not even as entertainment, because they do not spread truths, while they do "line the pockets" of undeserving writers. We must realize that at least some of the profits are then turned around to finance anti-Catholic projects.

You stated that I "scolded those that look for signs of the end." No, I did not scold ordinary Christian people, but rather I criticized only the writers that get ordinary people worked up and worried. Here is what I wrote: "They also tend to keep people constantly thinking about the end of the world and looking for signs of it, fooling them into thinking they can predict the end."
I do not contradict the good scripture passages that you just cited. They tell us to be calmly vigilant, on guard against the demons -- to watch mainly our own selves, lest we fall into sin and not be ready for Jesus's coming. My desire was to advise everyone against the kind of unhealthy anxiety that such books can inspire, a nose-to-the-wind alertness that gets some folks panicky about every natural disaster, etc..

Finally, I can recommend two things that can help you to deal with the fact that, while writing a reply, you are not able to see other peoples' responses. You don't have to rely on memory. I'm sure that you have seen the way many people (including yours truly) have quoted even long passages from previous people's messages. We did not quote those passages from memory!
--- The best option is to do this:
------- 1. open an blank, new "Notepad" or "Word" text-editing file.
------- 2. use "copy-and-paste" to put the other person's text into that new "text editor" file.
------- 3. compose your reply by inserting your own words above, below, and between the other person's sentences -- inserting quotation marks around the passages you want to quote and deleting passages that you don't want to quote.
------- 4. when finished, use copy-and-paste to "pick up" your completed reply and insert it into the "Answer:" window, below your name and e-mail address.
--- Now, if you don't need to quote from the other person's text, and you don't want to bother with opening a Notepad or Word file for copy-and-paste, but you DO want to glance back at what the other person wrote, all you have to do is this:
------- 1. start writing your "Answer."
------- 2. when you need to look at the other person's words, click on your "BACK" button, review his words, and then click on your "FORWARD" button to return to your "Answer" window.

Perhaps your computer or Internet browser will not allow you to do this BACK/FORWARD maneuver as mine (Netscape) will. In that case, you can always rely on the first method I explained (copy-and-paste to a text editor).

Yes, thank you, Jackie A., for your (mostly) very nice response to me. The only way that you were not so nice was in suggesting that I had unjustly slapped you and that you were turning the other cheek. Sometimes we have to realize and admit that, when someone explains how we have done a wrong thing, we really HAVE done a wrong thing. We cannot stubbornly cling to every single behavior of ours, as though we are not able to make a mistake. When we have been justly corrected, we have not been slapped, and we cannot speak of turning the other cheek. Now I know that I must speak up again. You properly stated that I cannot know your "personal finances." But I don't need to know anything about them in order to know that any unwise purchase (as I must classify these books) automatically has a slight detrimental effect on financial welfare of the rest of your family.

Deo Gratias. Cure

-- Cure of Ars (jvianney@ars.org), June 06, 2000.

You're right, Cure. Unless it's strictly a Catholic subject, I won't be posting here anymore.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 06, 2000.

Hi Jackiea- I have no opinion on this series of books since I have never read them, but it does seem to me that we should be free to read just about anything. I am as good and faithful a Catholic as I am able to be, including submitting to "the Magisterium of Holy Mother Church", but I still think that God is not so arbitrary as some of the responses to your reading might lead us to believe. Read whatever you want, according to your own lights. For heaven's sake. Jesus came to make us free not to tie us down to some nit-picky set of standards that no one can even keep track of. Use the mind that God gave you. Judge your reading by the light of the Holy Spirit-even heretics can teach us something, if only what to avoid. Why should we be afraid? You go ahead and feel free to post whatever you feel in your heart. That's what this place is for, as far as I can tell. I'm sure everyone has your best interests at heart, really. If they disagree with you, well fine, I'm sure they have their reasons, but don't let it discourage you. These are nice people. But Jesus trusts you too, he trusts you enough to give you his own self in the sacraments and the Church and in those you meet. Jesus himself never listened much to social convention- it just wasn't his deal.

I've been reading your postings for some time now, and it seems that we can trust you too. Why wouldn't we??

I'm glad you became a Catholic. I'm a convert too- it is a beautiful thing, troublesome sometimes for sure, but O so beautiful....

XOXOX Jane

-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), June 06, 2000.

Hey, "Cure." Don't you think it's time to "cool your jets?"

I'm not here to disagree with the facts you've been arguing. But you're reminding me of myself in my bad moments. You and I can make a mountain out of a molehill. You and I can beat a dead horse. You and I can stupidly try to make people grovel.

How about if you join me in making a resolution to do better -- especially since I just heard a priest mention that St. Thomas Aquinas taught this ...
"Yes, preach the truth, but if you don't do it with love, it is cruelty."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), June 06, 2000.

Hi John- You know I think you are so sweet. I always like reading your posts. I don't think you try to make people grovel. Be a little kinder to yourself. You seem like a concerned loving kind of guy. You're a little more interested in the "details" than I am, but hey, somebody's got to do it. Takes all kinds sweetie. Personally I like you. You get the basics, love love and more love. Isn't that about it?

XOX to you too, jane

-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), June 06, 2000.

Your words are very kind, Jane, more so than I deserve.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), June 07, 2000.

John and Jane, Those were very kind words. Thank you...both of you. God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 08, 2000.

hi my name is david i live in puerto rico my english no good but i make de questions in spanish que sabes del nuevo libro de la serie leftbehid?

pd sorry for the questions in spanish but im practice english right now i promise the next questions i will make in english god bless you

-- david encarnacion (david7@caribe.net), April 25, 2002.