This thread is a continuation of the original Million Mom March thread, which has a lot of stimulating discourse, but has grown too long for reasonable loading.

The original thread is here: Link

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), June 09, 2000

Answers

Well good morning to you MFB,

Youre still in a frenzy I see.

A BITCH you did quip,

Was a Freudian slip?

For an angry gay boy are ye!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 09, 2000.

MFB,

The maturity of your answer confirms what you say. I agree, we need to cut through the BS and confront the real issues, as you noted. I'll have to read the thread in its entirety before commenting further, but must say that I do agree with at least some of your points. The old thread is a whopping 62 pages printed! Personally, I'm not the least concerned about the color of anyone's skin, gray hairs, religious views, or whatever. I'm interested in the truth, and doing something in addition to just talking about it. It sounds like you have.

-- An Adult (lets@make.a.better.world), June 09, 2000.

An Adult says I am interested in the truth. Now that is a profound statement when explored thoroughly. We are all interested in the truth, unless of course in steps over the current boundaries of political correctness. The truth must be packaged properly so no peoples or groups are offended and those who speak it are not ostracized for offering it up. In reality, the real truth rarely makes an appearance without major opposition from various quarters. The truth is only swallowed by those whose agenda it serves. The truth is dead.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 09, 2000.

Dear Fanatic,

The truth may be illusory and hard to discern, but we need to keep looking for it. That's what's wrong with people today. They are too lazy and brainwashed by TPTB to desire the truth, and probably unready to deal with the reality of it.

-- Truth Seeker (willit@make.us.free?), June 09, 2000.

and JESUS said= I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH THE LIFE.

-- al-d. (dogs@zianet.com), June 09, 2000.

God Bless YOU Al-d.

-- Flash (flash@flash.hq), June 10, 2000.

Irrational, you're a piss-weak RACIST FAKE with no reading comprehension skills, no ability to discourse or debate, no evidence to support your bullshit points and no future on this thread. You're STUPID, you're BEATEN and you're a FAILURE as far as this debate goes.

You can post as many limericks, haiku verses, sonnets or novellas as you please. It's NOT GOING TO HELP you any. Go ahead, use pentameter, hexameter, free verse or even blank verse. Won't help you. LAME-ASS DOGGEREL like yours is the last resort of those who have lost the argument, along with all their reason and self-respect but who still don't know it yet. DIPSHIT. You can't even address ANY POINTS IN THE DISCUSSION. You are a FAILURE here.

Shove it up your Bell Jar, Sylvia Plath. Head back to Mersey Street, Anne Sexton. Take your ass back to the City of Big Shoulders, Carl Sandburg. Walt Whitman would have stopped singing the Body Electric if he'd known it would have led to PEOPLE LIKE YOU, PISSANT.

I saw the best minds of my generation bored to tears by Irrational's savage idiocy. GET IT, IRRATIONAL RACIST ASSHOLE? You think you're a WIT, Irrational, but you're just WITLESS. You're UNARMED here, limerick-boy.

As far as al-d goes, he can KISS MY ASS, too. I don't see Jesus OR many churches touching the gun violence issue.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms.and.irrational@are.very.wrong), June 11, 2000.

Hey MFB, top of the morning to ya! Man, you sure are an angry little boy. Someone mis-treating you lately! Are you being molested by one of the neighbor men? Stop the madness and turn him inyoull feel much better. Or not.

Now son, Ive certainly lost an argument or two in my life but not to you. I still have yet to hear what your argument is. Youre too busy chewing off your tongue to say anything of substance. Come back after the control drugs kick-in and you can converse in a lucid manner. Till then, keep the mouthpiece in and dont bend over.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.

MFB and Rational sitting in a tree

P-I-S-S-I-N-G

First comes poetry

Then comes flammage

If you ask me

They're both brain damaged

Seriously Ra, MFB has some pretty eloquent arguments. You just have to wade through the swear words to get to them. I suggest you take his advice and actually read his posts. I also suggest that MFB get a new thesaurus. There's only so many conjugations of the verb "to fuck".

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 11, 2000.

If I may be so bold as to summarize Million Mom's arguments:

1. The Milion Mom March advocates never cared about guns until they saw violence affecting their own kind.

2. The NRA CLAIMS to advocate gun use, education in proper use, etc. for EVERYONE, but they really don't.

Both sides are looking out for their own best interest. Where were the Million Moms when violence affected ONLY OTHER people? Where was the NRA when they COULD have been teaching gun safety to folks in urban areas?

Of course MM will correct me if my summary is incorrect, but this is how *I* saw the arguments unfold.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 11, 2000.

Anita, thanks for your input. To me the MMM was nothing more than a ploy of the Clinton/Gore camp to further their political agendas and win some votes. It was so transparent that you dont see squat about it anymore for good reasons. The thinking behind the middle class fright platform just doesnt hold water, IMHO.

Who says the NRA does not stand for firearm education for everyone? How is it that the poor folks are able to afford so many guns? How many of these poor folks have voluntarily sought out firearm education? How many of their guns are legally registered? I guess because they are poor its OK to sidestep these areas.

This is still the land of opportunity, not the land of guaranteed opportunity. I feel for the poor and I work my butt off to make sure I dont become one of them.

Flammage and Damaged? Not even close Ape Man, you can do better than that!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 11, 2000.

Irrational, you're not old enough to call me "little boy." Thanks for playing, though. We'd like to send you away with a copy of our home game. Practice, and maybe you'll get better.

Irrational gibbered

"Now son, Ive certainly lost an argument or two in my life but not to you."

No, you have already lost. Here's why.

1) You have repeatedly refused to answer questions.

2) You have repeatedly made unsupported statements.

3) You have repeatedly dodged requests to support those statements.

4) You have repeatedly made insults your only response to my posts.

5) You raise straw men.

6) You claim not to see the points that others are readily acknowledging.

7) You refuse to post statistical data for even the most miniscule of your points.

"I still have yet to hear what your argument is."

THAT is because you're a goddamn moron. Others on this thread and its predecessor haven't had much trouble figuring them out. Surely you're not so STUPID that you can't figure it out. Or ARE you? Go back. Re-read. If you do so, and return with polite questions, you might be treated differently.

"Youre too busy chewing off your tongue to say anything of substance."

Nope. You're too busy asking me to go find you a $30 Glock, you racist suck-ass. If you would shut your yap, clean the shit out of your ears and go back and RE-READ like I have told you to, you might get it. Now that's a lot of reading, and you might not be up to it. Something tells me you never cracked many books in high school or college either (though I'm not entirely sure you ever went to college).

Anita, you have summed up my main points. There are some other things I have said that float around those points, but you have hit the high points. Thank you for listening.

Now here we have some more stupid shit from Irrational:

"Anita, thanks for your input. To me the MMM was nothing more than a ploy of the Clinton/Gore camp to further their political agendas and win some votes. It was so transparent that you dont see squat about it anymore for good reasons. The thinking behind the middle class fright platform just doesnt hold water, IMHO."

Oh, really? Tell me, how exactly, did Clinton and Gore get all those women to show up for that march? You're going to have to make a hard choice here, Irrational -- either Clinton and Gore are a couple of incompetent morons, or they're a lot smarter and a lot more powerful than you may be giving them credit for. I don't think Clinton and Gore had a thing to do with it.

As far as "nobody talking about it anymore," well, that's completely incorrect. I saw Hillary Clinton's and Rick Lazio's campaign managers arguing about it on CNBC this past weekend. Maybe you've just been reading muscle-car magazines instead of keeping up with current affairs. Hmm?

The middle-class fright platform is easy to see, if you know how to read. The "Take Back The Night" protests on college campuses back in the late 80s and early 90s made me laugh my ass off. Take back the night from WHOM? WHO took the night away? And those stupid-ass statistics -- like 25% of all college women had been raped? Totally unsupported. Totally unjustified. Totally unproven. The whole concept behind the "Take Back The Night" rallies was that middle- class college kids thought that they had a RIGHT to FEEL SAFE. And that's exactly why the March For Bullshit happened. A bunch of middle-class, upper-class and (by the way) mostly white suburbanites THINK that they have a RIGHT to FEEL SAFE. Well, if someone doesn't FEEL safe, I can't help them with that. They need to see a therapist in that case.

"Who says the NRA does not stand for firearm education for everyone?"

I do. Show me your statistics on NRA activity in poor and minority areas. Show me the statistics on Eddie Eagle's appearances in inner- city and urban schools. Show me how many activities the NRA held for lower-income and underprivileged kids last year. Show me their membership statistics, broken down by race, income and residential zip codes. Prove me wrong.

"How is it that the poor folks are able to afford so many guns?"

Tell me your ownership figures on firearm ownership by the poor. Saying "everybody knows" is not proof. If you agree with unfettered gun ownership for all, then surely you don't think poor people's gun ownership rights should be restricted, do you?

"How many of these poor folks have voluntarily sought out firearm education?"

Why should they have to? I thought you just implied that the NRA SUPPORTED firearm education for everyone. Didn't you? If that's the case, then why doesn't the NRA seek THEM out? If firearm misuse is so rampant in the inner cities, then I would think the NRA would want to get RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF IT in order to show how much good they could do. That'd be a hell of a PR win for them, working with inner- city minorities to encourage responsible gun ownership and use. Instead, the NRA chooses not to bother.

"How many of their guns are legally registered? I guess because they are poor its OK to sidestep these areas."

There are more poor white people than poor black and Hispanic people in this country. But I think you'll find more NRA bumperstickers in trailer parks than you will in the hood. Wonder why that is, Irrational? And I wonder how may poor whites own unregistered weapons? Seems like Randy Weaver ran afoul of some of that, didn't he?

"This is still the land of opportunity, not the land of guaranteed opportunity."

That's quite a straw man you keep bringing up for us. Why do you keep raising that point when nobody is arguing against it?

"I feel for the poor and I work my butt off to make sure I dont become one of them."

I don't think you feel for the poor at all. I think you're afraid of becoming poor yourself, not like there's anything wrong with that.

"Flammage and Damaged? Not even close Ape Man, you can do better than that!"

Well, SO CAN YOU. If you want so badly to have a serious conversation, then drop the "fag" and "boy" comments, Needledick. I thought Tarzan's comments were pretty funny. You need to learn to laugh at yourself. Everybody else on this thread seems to be laughing at you.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@can.be.wrong), June 11, 2000.

MFB, now I think I understand where you are coming from and Ive heard this song once too often. You are just another anti- establishment, white man hating radical that would like to imagine himself as champion of the oppressed. Everybody should have a voice but you are doing a disservice to the poor minorities you claim to support so passionately. I have read your threads and have decided to stop wasting my time and intellect on your ignorant ass. You are not the type of person to listen to reason so Ill not offer any. BTW, Im old enough to call your punk ass anything I want.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 12, 2000.

Anita, you said,

1. The Milion Mom March advocates never cared about guns until they saw violence affecting their own kind.

I agree with this, but don't necessarily think it's *wrong*. One can't put an equal amount of energy into solving *all* of the world's problems, so one should first take care of the issues affecting them (from a pragmatic standpoint). When violence entered their neighborhooods, they tried to do *something* about it. What's wrong with that? Why should you complain if when violence was in your neighborhood your neighbors did nothing (refused to cooperate with police, etc.).

2. The NRA CLAIMS to advocate gun use, education in proper use, etc. for EVERYONE, but they really don't.

Where is the proof for this statement? Have there been inner city schools that have *asked* for an Eddie Eagle program and been refused? And I don't think the NRA wants EVERYONE educated in the proper use of arms, for example, it might not be advisable to train felons to shoot effectively and safely.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 12, 2000.

"MFB, now I think I understand where you are coming from and Ive heard this song once too often."

Thaaaaaaat's interesting. You claimed not to understand. Now, I KNOW you haven't had time to go back and re-read, so here you are, talking out your ass as usual. No way you went from a complete lack of comprehension to complete (albeit flawed) understanding in just seven hours. You STILL don't know what I'm saying -- you just don't want to have to deal with it. Like I said, you've already lost and don't know it.

"You are just another anti- establishment, white man hating radical that would like to imagine himself as champion of the oppressed."

You are incorrect. You are wrong. All I have spoken of is how BOTH sides of the gun debate are WRONG, are FUCKED UP and how both have WRITTEN OFF POOR MINORITIES as not being WORTH THEIR TIME. Anything else you read in that is what YOU have placed in it. And we all KNOW how VALUELESS youre reasoning is.

"Everybody should have a voice but you are doing a disservice to the poor minorities you claim to support so passionately."

Irrational, you've been saying this on this thread for a while, even as you claim not to understand what my points are. Now I'm supposed to believe that you've read, you understand, and you're still spouting the same shit? Well, fuck you and what you think. You'd like poor minorities to go on shooting each other, wouldn't you?

You CLAIM to think that everyone should have a voice, but you don't want those voices RAISED. You don't want to HEAR those voices when they say something you don't LIKE. You want to sit on your ASS and claim that others are doing a DISSERVICE when they GET UP AND DO SOMETHING.

WELL, FUCK YOU.

"I have read your threads"

I seriously doubt that. But then again, you might have done so. You may now realize that, while I have been making my points, you have been slinging nothing but unsupported bullshit and ignorant-ass arguments. That's probably a good reason for you to run with your tail tucked between your legs -- because you realize NOW that you have LOST.

"and have decided to stop wasting my time and intellect on your ignorant ass."

Don't worry, you've only used time. There's no evidence of intellect in any of your posts. Someone like you, who never bothers to support his claims, who never offers evidence to back up his statements, who never cites any statistics to explain his point . . . well, there's not a lot of intellect being displayed there. Go back to your Nintendo, Wonder-Bread.

"You are not the type of person to listen to reason"

You have yet to DISPLAY any reason, RACIST FAKE. Others on here have displayed it, and have displayed patience and understanding. In return, they GOT patience and understanding. You have displayed none of that, so you get your ass kicked, just like Frank and Julie.

"so Ill not offer any."

Well, why should today be different from any other day? No reason for you to suddenly START offering reason and debate when you haven't been doing so before.

"BTW, Im old enough to call your punk ass anything I want."

You're not old enough to call me "little boy," RACIST FAKE.

Oh, look. Frank came back. Looks like he pulled himself back together.

"2. The NRA CLAIMS to advocate gun use, education in proper use, etc. for EVERYONE, but they really don't."

Yeah, I said that.

"Where is the proof for this statement?"

In the NRA's own statistics. The NRA undertakes most of its educational activities in Western rural areas, with another significant level in Southern rural areas. NRA educational activity is significantly over-represented in rural areas and significantly under-represented in urban areas, especially in the New England, the Great Lakes (try Detroit, for example) and parts of the Deep South. You want proof? Call up the NRA and ask for a press pack. Tell them you're interested in seeing where they're doing all their gooooooood work and what kinds of educational activities they do.

"Have there been inner city schools that have *asked* for an Eddie Eagle program and been refused?"

I've got a challenge for you, Frank. Call up the NRA's educational arm, tell them you want Eddie Eagle to come to your school and then tell them you represent a school in downtown Detroit, Atlanta or New York City. See what happens. Ask then what their criteria are for visiting a school. You will get a big surprise.

"And I don't think the NRA wants EVERYONE educated in the proper use of arms, for example, it might not be advisable to train felons to shoot effectively and safely."

Well, of COURSE they don't want to teach poor niggers and wetbacks how to use firearms, right, Frank? Because everybody KNOWS that poor niggers and wetbacks -- especially the kind that have guns -- are just FELONIES WAITING TO HAPPEN, right? ISN'T THAT RIGHT, FRANK?

Like someone said back on the old thread -- "I don't sign up for my rights."

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@can.be.wrong), June 12, 2000.

MFB,

Don't bother responding to my posts. I've long since decided you were really some dopey white guy trying hard to imitate a minority, and as such don't really care what, if anything, you have to say (assuming there is something besides "racist cracker" ((even though that is like the sheet calling the cloud white)) ;-))

Anita?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 12, 2000.

You called, Frank?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 12, 2000.

Who is this MFB? Im somewhat new to this forum and dont know all of the players yet but this person seems extremely angry about the plight of the poor. I was poor once and it pissed me off to no end.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 12, 2000.

Anita,

Oops, you were just *summarizing* MFB's points, not making them yourself. I've still gotta work on my reading comprehension, I guess.

Never mind.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 12, 2000.

Frank,

Don't bother posting, then. When you post, you become fair game for me or anybody else. Surely you realize that. Deal with it.

"I've long since decided you were really some dopey white guy trying hard to imitate a minority, and as such don't really care what, if anything, you have to say"

Welllllll, that shore wud be eeezier ta do than actally havin' th THINK, wudn't it, Frank?

Better to call your opponent's personality/character/morals/qualifications into question when you're LOSING, Frank. That way you can save some face. We all saw how you REFUSED to FACE up to the ISSUES on the previous thread. So it would certainly be easier for RACIST you to imagine me as a white person than it would be to ACTUALLY USE YOUR HEAD AND CONSIDER THE POINTS I RAISED. Dat'd make hims punkin head hurrrrrrrt.

If it makes you feel any better, Frank, I am blue with orange spots. Now, then, how does that impact on what I have to say? What does it MATTER what color I am? Does the race of the speaker have some bearing on the TRUTH or FALSITY of what the speaker SAYS? I don't THINK so.

Go ahead, Frank. Call up the NRA like I suggested. I've tried it three times. Ask them why they don't go to inner-city schools. Ask them how many minority individuals are members. Ask them if they think Heavy D and Smooth down on the corner should be able to buy and sell firearms without having to go through the hassle of background checks and registration. See what they say.

"Who is this MFB? Im somewhat new to this forum and dont know all of the players yet but this person seems extremely angry about the plight of the poor. I was poor once and it pissed me off to no end."

Thank you for asking, The. You can read my arguments and points in this thread and in the original thread. There is a link at the top of this thread that will take you back. It amounts to a lot of reading, so please, take your time. If you have any questions for me after you're done, then please feel free to ask.

Frank said

"I've still gotta work on my reading comprehension, I guess."

NOW you're speaking truth, Frank.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@can.be.wrong), June 12, 2000.

Frank, you are wasting your good mind trying to reason with this fucking idiot asshole. His steady tune is that we, the NRA, the government, and just about everyone else doesnt care about the poor blacks and Hispanics. Where the hell were we when they were killing each other in the ghetto all these years. Never mind that these same blacks and Hispanics never got off theyre dead ass to march for gun control themselves. Guess we were supposed to do it for them.

MFB, you were right all along. No body gives a shit about your ghetto folks so you can go back home and say see, I done told you so. Be careful you dont get your punk ass blown-up by some crack head with a $30 piece. But you should be OKjust print out your posts and show the bros how angry you are. Theyll love it my man. Good Bye!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 12, 2000.

Irrational raved thus:

"Frank, you are wasting your good mind trying to reason with this fucking idiot asshole."

No, because he's not REASONING. Neither are you.

"His steady tune is that we, the NRA, the government, and just about everyone else doesnt care about the poor blacks and Hispanics."

You are TOTALLY INCORRECT. I have spoken ONLY about the March For Bullshit and the NRA. I have NOT SPOKEN about ANYONE ELSE. If you think I have, then I CHALLENGE YOU TO SHOW ME WHERE I HAVE DONE SO. Looks like YOU need to increase YOUR reading comprehension skills too, Irrational.

"Where the hell were we when they were killing each other in the ghetto all these years."

That applies to you ONLY if you support the March For Bullshit (like Julie did) or if you claim (like some have said on this thread) that the NRA "supports safe firearm education for everyone." I have shown how both are FULL OF SHIT. Nothing more. Anything more is what YOU have tried to ATTACH to my argument.

"Never mind that these same blacks and Hispanics never got off theyre dead ass to march for gun control themselves."

Who says they're for gun control? Who says that's the answer? Why can't blacks and Hispanics exercise THEIR gun ownership rights? What makes you think that a MARCH is the FUCKING ANSWER?

I told you what the answer is. I told you what I have done. Yet you persist in mischaracterizing my position, my points and my statements. You can't even keep your eye on the FUCKING BALL. There's a reason you're getting your ASS KICKED in this discussion, Irrational.

"Guess we were supposed to do it for them."

Ooo, that's interesting. Show me where I said that.

What I SAID was that the March For Bullshit was only about saving white lives. What I SAID was that the NRA is only about gun rights for middle-class, upper-class and white lives. Both the March For Bullshit participants and the NRA, for all their shouting at each other, would be PERFECTLY HAPPY if firearms in the hands of minorities would just DISAPPEAR.

Show me where I asked you for SHIT. My wife even TOLD you we didn't want anything from you. I have repeated that point INTERMINABLY, yet you CONTINUE to WHINE about "being asked to do it all" or how "they didn't do it for themselves." Fucking idiot.

"MFB, you were right all along."

I knew that already. I don't need your sorry cracker ass to tell me so. Do you actually think I care if some racist asshole like you tell me "okay, you're right?" Oooo, yassuh, massa! I be's so happy you done thrown me dis bone! Fuck you, Irrational. You can't deal with the points I have raised, so you have to bring up things I didn't say, didn't claim and don't agree with, and then APPLY them to my argument to save face. You're a pitiful SACK of SHIT.

"No body gives a shit about your ghetto folks so you can go back home and say see, I done told you so."

And if you think that was my aim here, then you're a sad, sad person, too. If you're satisfied that people are killing each other every day, then I don't see how you can call yourself human. No thinking human being could ACCEPT that kind of needless violence without asking themselves "what can be done."

In YOUR case, you just WRITE THOSE LIVES OFF, Irrational. Just EXACTLY as I have said the March For Bullshit and the NRA have. Thanks for illustrating my point.

"Be careful you dont get your punk ass blown-up by some crack head with a $30 piece."

I live with it every day. When my time comes, there won't be much I can do about it. If you think it's so fucking wonderful, then trade places with me. Maybe you would be satisfied with that set of circumstances. I'm not. That's why I took steps to change it, which is EXACTLY what you have SAID minorities should do.

"But you should be OKjust print out your posts and show the bros how angry you are. Theyll love it my man."

No. They won't. They won't love it, because there's evidence from people like you and Julie and Frank that says, essentially "let the dark-skinned people shoot each other."

If you were in their position, would YOU "love" it?

"Good Bye!"

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, Irrational.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@can.be.wrong), June 13, 2000.

From some of the previous posts on this thread, I'm getting the feeling that some people perceive that the gun violence problem in ghetto areas is somehow the fault of the NRA not teaching firearms safety classes in those areas. This is absurd. The problem is the culture of violence, crime, and drug dealing that pervades those areas. No amount of firearms training will make transform the young people of these areas into responsible citizens. The ones who don't choose the violent path are still marked for life by the experience. When these young thugs didn't have guns they used (and still do) knives and baseball bats. Where I live we still think of baseball bats as being used for baseball. We don't have a culture of violence here because we don't tolerate it. Violent people are usually killed (often by honest citizens) or captured and imprisioned for a considerable time. While I disagree with the NRA on a number of issues, I don't blame them for inner city gun problems.

-- Newsman (searching@for.the.truth), June 13, 2000.

Newsman, meet MFB.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 13, 2000.

Quoth the Newsman:

From some of the previous posts on this thread, I'm getting the feeling that some people perceive that the gun violence problem in ghetto areas is somehow the fault of the NRA not teaching firearms safety classes in those areas. This is absurd.

Well, yeah, it would be, wouldnt it? But I didnt SAY that. I said that the NRAs STATED AIMS of increasing gun safety through education and defending gun ownership rights ARE DIRECTLY REFUTED by its collective behavior towards low-income and urban minorities. As hard as you may look, you will not find me or anyone else on this thread DIRECTLY BLAMING the NRA for that.

HOWEVER, we SHOULD be asking the following questions of the NRA:

If gun education is a desirable and necessary precursor to reduced levels of gun violence, then why does the NRA not conduct gun education courses and clinics in inner cities, where rates of gun violence are significantly above the norm? Would that not serve the triple purpose of proving the NRAs point, proving the NRAs worth AND reducing gun violence in the areas where it is highest?

If the NRA supports gun ownership rights for all Americans, why does your organization not actively recruit minorities, who will soon outnumber whites as citizens? Surely donations and dues from minority members would help offset the income and membership loss the NRA has suffered in the last two years.

A gun show is the economic equivalent of two individuals on a street corner, exchanging money for a firearm. Given that the economic transaction is precisely the same, why does the NRA defend the participants in one transaction (the gun show), yet call for the arrest and prosecution of the participants in the other transaction? Whats different about the two transactions?

Its really SIMPLE, Newsman. The stated goals of the NRA are DIRECTLY REFUTED by the NRAs BEHAVIOR toward low-income and urban minorities. Thats all. Aint no blaming going on, and you point some out to me if you think theres been any.

The problem is the culture of violence, crime, and drug dealing that pervades those areas.

Thats right. Maybe you should go back and read the original thread, which has a link at the top of this thread. You will see me discussing the lack of hope in those areas. Sounds a lot like what youre saying. You're late to the party.

No amount of firearms training will make transform the young people of these areas into responsible citizens.

Nope, and nobody said it would, either. I hope youre not this slack when you quote your sources. Looks like YOUR reading comprehension skills could use some sharpening up, too, Newsman.

The ones who don't choose the violent path are still marked for life by the experience.

Yes. I said this on the previous thread, too. Many good people are TOUCHED by gun violence, though they didnt pick up a gun themselves. Leaving guns alone does not guarantee that you will not be touched by gun violence, ESPECIALLY if you are a poor or urban minority.

When these young thugs didn't have guns they used (and still do) knives and baseball bats.

Whats your point there?

Where I live we still think of baseball bats as being used for baseball.

And where I live, young people think of guns as NECESSARY. Your culture and my culture arent the same, no matter how much you might LIKE FOR IT TO BE. Youre out of touch, Newsman.

We don't have a culture of violence here because we don't tolerate it.

Who is this WE? There IS a culture of violence in some areas, and the residents of some of THOSE areas may not have the knowledge, the strenth of character or the ability to do anything about it. American culture is not homogenous from sea to shining sea, Newsman. Everybodys not the same. Go see what I had to say to Julie on the previous thread.

Violent people are usually killed (often by honest citizens) or captured and imprisioned for a considerable time.

I dont agree. Please present your sources and citations. I think you are WRONG.

While I disagree with the NRA on a number of issues, I don't blame them for inner city gun problems.

Well, then, that puts us in agreement then, doesnt it? I dont blame them for inner-city gun violence, either.

Now go down to the basement with Irrational and dont come out until you can read Horton Hears a Shotgun all by YOURSELF.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong), June 14, 2000.

"Where I live we still think of baseball bats as being used for baseball. We don't have a culture of violence here because we don't tolerate it."

What magical fairy land do you live in? Candlestick Park?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 14, 2000.

Ape man, you have obviously spent zero time in or around Candlestick Park. BTW, the magical fairyland is up the pike about 8 miles from Hunters Point.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I have two baseball bats in my truck, mine, and my daughter's little league bat. They are used *for baseball*, not assault.

But I DON'T like to think of myself as living in *fairyland* ;-)

Go figure,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

Oh, now, THIS is REALLY interesting. First, Frank tells me not to bother responding to his posts. Then this "Newsman" character shows up, posting some ignorant-ass bullshit that reads VERY MUCH like the ignorant-ass bullshit that Frank had been posting. Tarzan gives up a funny post, asking "Newsman" just exactly "what magical fairyland" he lives in, and FRANK responds. Ain't that curious. Things that make you go "hmmmm."

I guess Frank and Newsman are the same. Frank, was that you? Did you leave the room in a huff, get your Dan Rather mask and Louisville Slugger, and come back into the room to beat up on me? You can't make any progress in the argument as YOURSELF, so it looks like you had to go get a DISGUISE. Fucking dumbass racist COWARD.

Looks like you're contradicting some of your earlier statements, too. Remember? You've "long since decided" that I was a white guy and that you "don't really care what" I have to say -- but you come back in with a FUCKING WHITE HOOD on so you don't suffer the EMBARRASSMENT of being caught contradicting yourself. But you ARE contradicting yourself. You CLAIM you don't care what I have to say, but you CAN'T STOP POSTING HERE, can you, Frank?

You're JUST LIKE THE NRA. You SAY ONE THING, but you MEAN SOMETHING ELSE. Lying SACK of SHIT.

Since you're back, do you plan on answering any of my questions? Do you plan on putting any of my statements to the test? I'll repeat them here, to make it easier on you.

"If it makes you feel any better, Frank, I am blue with orange spots. Now, then, how does that impact on what I have to say? What does it MATTER what color I am? Does the race of the speaker have some bearing on the TRUTH or FALSITY of what the speaker SAYS? I don't THINK so."

Or try this, in order to test out what I'm saying about the NRA and inner-city schools, etc.

"Go ahead, Frank. Call up the NRA like I suggested. I've tried it three times. Ask them why they don't go to inner-city schools. Ask them how many minority individuals are members. Ask them if they think Heavy D and Smooth down on the corner should be able to buy and sell firearms without having to go through the hassle of background checks and registration. See what they say."

You're a piece of work, Frank. You can't focus on the discussion, you can't back up anything you say and you keep asking me to defend points I never made. Yep, a hood and a big stick make the perfect disguise for you, MISTER RACIST DIRTBAG.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong), June 15, 2000.

Newsman-

I grew up in a very small town famed for the piety, hospitality and manners of its residents. We had little league too, and town picnics in the park and a parade on Veterans Day, Memorial Day, and Flag Day. No one could say that we had a "culture of violence" or that "violence was tolerated". However, even we had the occasional bar brawl or plain old ass-whupping involving baseball bats, bottles, chains, or whatever else was at hand. While we didn't have a "culture of violence", we were well aware that a baseball bat can also be used to hurt people.

I would like to know what place in America is so highly evolved that the people there have no need to consider the possibility that certain objects, such as bats, couldn't be used to hurt someone.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

You are taking my observation to ridiculous extremes. I don't mean that there are never crimes commited with baseball bats, etc. Just that for every such crime in my area there are probably a million committed in higher crime areas. Most of these areas also happen to have more restrictive gun control laws, which doesn't seem to reduce violent crime as their supporters promised. Look a Kennisaw GA.

MFB,

You are premature in blasting me with both barrels and calling me all sorts of unkind names. I intend to discuss our points of diagreement not call you Racist, Asshole, etc. You and I have more in common than you apparently believe, based on your summary judgement. However, there are also some points on which we disagree and I would like to discuss them also. I'm just extremely pressed for time at the moment, and really need to read this and the other thread in their entirety, first. I'll try to respond reasonably soon, on this thread.

Incidentally, youre writing style is an interesting blend of Hawk and CPR. Are you really one of them, or perhaps just a soul brother?

Ra,

"Ape man, you have obviously spent zero time in or around Candlestick Park. BTW, the magical fairyland is up the pike about 8 miles from Hunters Point." ROTFLMAO, You've sure got that right! I used to live not far from there and wouldn't even feel save going in that area ARMED at night!

"This is still the land of opportunity, not the land of guaranteed opportunity."

Amen, brother! This is what's wrong with our country today. We have the culture of Entitlement and of Victimhood and have forgotten that hard work, study, and caring for one's neighbor are what once made America great, in spite of some of it's flaws.

-- Newsman (notruth@inthe.news), June 15, 2000.

"Look a Kennisaw GA."

What about Kennesaw? Are you referring to their law which requires all home owners to own a gun? If you are, then what would be your point?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan, you said,

I would like to know what place in America is so highly evolved that the people there have no need to consider the possibility that certain objects, such as bats, couldn't be used to hurt someone.

It seems to me you're changing your point here. On your earlier post,

"Where I live we still think of baseball bats as being used for baseball. We don't have a culture of violence here because we don't tolerate it."

What magical fairy land do you live in? Candlestick Park? I got the impression you felt that baseball bats were more-or-less *assumed* to have the purpose of assault, but now you're saying there's at least a *remote possibility* that they may be used as weapons.

IMO, you are disagreeing with yourself on what you believe, but I'll await (eagerly, I might add) your clarification.

BTW, almost anything could conceivably be used as a weapon, even water, but that's not how most people in my culture think of it.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

"I got the impression you felt that baseball bats were more-or-less *assumed* to have the purpose of assault, but now you're saying there's at least a *remote possibility* that they may be used as weapons."

Nothing to clarify. You were saying that you live in such an idyllic community that violence is not tolerated, even from objects which are not designed to be violent, such as bats. I'd like to know where this community is, because I have yet to see any community that didn't have even occasional violence, whether from guns or baseball bats.

"BTW, almost anything could conceivably be used as a weapon, even water, but that's not how most people in my culture think of it."

What culture is that, Newsman?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Tarzan,

I didn't say that "I lived in... tolerated", I merely said that to ME, baseball bats are for baseball, not violence.

You also said,

What culture is that, Newsman?

"Newsman" didn't say that, I did. And my culture is middle class American. Well-fed and baseball playing. :-)

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), June 15, 2000.

Frank, dont be too hard on the Ape-Man for he knows not what he might have said. He is playing games with us on this forum as he has already been caught posting as Nerdrustler in addition to Tarzan. We can only imagine how many other personalities he is using and as is often the case with story tellers, they cant keep their fabrications straight and keep stumbling over the previous lie. I do not take this person seriously for his manipulations are too obvious and not worthy of our respect.

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 15, 2000.

Oh please, Fanattic. I guess it's easier than actually discussing the issue, isn't it?

I used the name "Nerd Rustler" when I was talking about my region (the South) and my job. I got sick of having every post of mine turned into a debate on religion. If you want to use that as an excuse to duck and dodge, go right ahead, but such a cheap, pasteboard tactic makes it very obvious who's arguments won't stand up under examination.

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

NerdZan, thanks for the, uhhclarification????

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 15, 2000.

Hey fanatic, people who use multiple handles shouldn't throw stones.

-- I See IP (icip@address.com), June 15, 2000.

You talkin' to ME! This is the only name I've ever used here so you must be confused. Also, I never transmit from any location but this one. Not that it matters but 'who are you?'

-- The (fact@fan.attic), June 15, 2000.

Wow Fanattic, you've really put a lot of time and effort into this obsession with me. I'm flattered, really, but don't you have some "persons of non traditional sexual orientation" to harass?

-- Tarzan the Ape Man (tarzan@swingingthroughthejunglewithouta.net), June 15, 2000.

Frank drooled

"MFB, You are premature in blasting me with both barrels and calling me all sorts of unkind names."

No, I'm not. You've EARNED it.

"I intend to discuss our points of diagreement not call you Racist, Asshole, etc."

No, you don't. You've SAID you don't intend to.

"You and I have more in common than you apparently believe, based on your summary judgement."

No, we have more in common than YOU believe or will ADMIT, based on your KNEE-JERK BULLSHIT OVERREACTIONS to my POSTS. Cracker-ass bastard.

"However, there are also some points on which we disagree and I would like to discuss them also."

Well, get on up.

"I'm just extremely pressed for time at the moment, and really need to read this and the other thread in their entirety, first. I'll try to respond reasonably soon, on this thread."

You do that.

"Incidentally, youre writing style is an interesting blend of Hawk and CPR. Are you really one of them, or perhaps just a soul brother?"

I am neither one of those people, and I have never met or spoken to either one. As far as being a soul brother goes, I'll ask again -- what does it matter and why do you care?

And Irrational gibbered

"Amen, brother! This is what's wrong with our country today. We have the culture of Entitlement and of Victimhood and have forgotten that hard work, study, and caring for one's neighbor are what once made America great, in spite of some of it's flaws."

And this has . . . WHAT . . . to do with this thread? You raise a straw man., slack-ass news person.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), June 19, 2000.

Earlier this week, Frank said

"I'm just extremely pressed for time at the moment, and really need to read this and the other thread in their entirety, first. I'll try to respond reasonably soon, on this thread."

Not so pressed for time you can't get deep into the abortion threads, though. What's the matter, Frank, getting too hot in here for you?

Hurry back, cracker.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), June 21, 2000.

MFB,

That was me that made the above quoted statement (further back up the thread). Unfortunately circumstances are still severely limiting my participation at this time.

-- Newsman (notruth@inthe.news), June 22, 2000.

Well, don't let that stop you, Newsman. You hurry right on back and post some more leading questions, okay?

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), June 25, 2000.

Newsman?

Frank?

Irrational?

Cowards. None of you have anything to back up your slack-ass points other than name-calling, guesses and an incredible preoccupation for discovering the color of my skin.

Frank claimed he wanted to go on, and Newsman did too. LIARS.

Irrational just runs away from any thread I post on. Guess I broke his mind.

Well, kids, come on back whenever you're ready. Come back with both guns blazing, and I'll knock you down a few pegs again. Come back POLITELY, and you might get spoken to politely in return. Or don't come back at all, cowards.

Your choice.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 01, 2000.

MFB,

Your style reminds me of Creeper in some ways (Attack Dog) but he was never as racist as you are... or as bigoted.... close, but not quiet :-)

The NRA works in rural areas because that is where thier membership base is, no plot, no hidden agenda, just plain old economics. Now if you really want to get on someones case, try the minorities in the urban areas you so stridently defend... the Boy Scouts are everywhere, and they give Merit Badges for Marksmanship/Gun Safety.... so why aren't your "poor, downtrodden youth" learning from the sources they have at hand?

I know... it's always "someone elses fault"

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 01, 2000.

"MFB, Your style reminds me of Creeper in some ways (Attack Dog) but he was never as racist as you are... or as bigoted.... close, but not quiet :-)"

I might be a racist or a bigot, but then again, I might not be. Since I have never indicated my race, that makes it impossible for you to do anything but GUESS what my race is. And not knowing my race, you can't really tell for sure whether I'm a bigot and/or a racist or not.

But based on other posts of yours that I have seen, you don't seem to let uncertainty get in your way. Better simply to guess, like Irrational and Frank do, and HOPE that some of your shit-slinging will stick. That's the argumentation style of a loser, Netghost. I had thought someone like you would have tried harder.

Would you care to make any other further guesses, or would you care to actually discuss issues?

"The NRA works in rural areas because that is where thier membership base is, no plot, no hidden agenda, just plain old economics."

That's not what they say on their home page. They claim to support gun ownership for everybody. Here's something my wife posted on the previous thread:

"In countless ways every day, the NRA is making the great American traditions of gun ownership and marksmanship enjoyable, everyday activities for the nation's entire family."

No mention of only representing part of that family, no mention of disowning part of that family. The NRA is making gun ownership and marksmanship enjoyable for the nation's ENTIRE family.

And if the NRA's reason for sticking to rural areas is economic, as you claim, then WHY would they do that when the nation's population is experiencing a HUGE demographic shift from rural to urban and suburban areas? Why would they INTENTIONALLY deal only with a small and shrinking segment of the American population? When there are SO MANY MORE people in cities and suburbs, why don't they try to RECRUIT THEM? Come on, Netghost, help us out here with an explanation.

"Now if you really want to get on someones case, try the minorities in the urban areas you so stridently defend."

As I have asked Frank and Irrational, so I now ask you. SHOW ME where I defend minorities. SHOW ME where I defend lawbreakers. My wife and I are eager to see that. Please post excerpts from my posts that indicate support for lawbreakers. Show me where. Come on.

".. the Boy Scouts are everywhere, and they give Merit Badges for Marksmanship/Gun Safety.... so why aren't your "poor, downtrodden youth" learning from the sources they have at hand?"

In the first place, I never used the term "poor, downtrodden youth," so I'll thank you not to present it as if it came from me. In the second place, your solution of using the Boy Scouts is only suitable for males up to the age of 21. What's a male over 21 to do? Or a female of any age? You appear to be making excuses for the non- present NRA, which can't be bothered to support its OWN STATED AIM.

"I know... it's always "someone elses fault"

Again, I never used the phrase "someone else's fault," so please use single quotes. If you plan to use my own words, then you are welcome to use doubles. Otherwise, please be honest with us all.

Further, please show me where I blamed gun violence on this nebulous 'someone else.' Direct quotes from my posts will be most appreciated.

Frank couldn't do it. Newsman couldn't do it. Irrational couldn't do it. You won't be able to, either.

None of you bother to read what I say because your knees are jerking too violently. Too bad. You might learn something if you could pay attention better. Try Ritalin. And maybe some remedial reading classes.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 01, 2000.

Hi, March for Bullshit
Your posts are interesting at the least.
Do you think that you're making any changes
in the minds of the mindless people on this
forum? What is your agenda? Just venting or
is there a purpose?

I have no quarrel with any of your positions
albeit I use a different style to communicate.

The world has long been a place where those in
power have disenfranchised the people for their
profit. The struggle for an equitable society
is ancient. It will continue for a long time into
the future. The effort to remove guns from the people
is part of this effort of disempowerment.

-- spider (spider0@usa.net), July 02, 2000.

I might be a racist or a bigot, but then again, I might not be. Since I have never indicated my race, that makes it impossible for you to do anything but GUESS what my race is. And not knowing my race, you can't really tell for sure whether I'm a bigot and/or a racist or not.

You don't have to "indicate your race" to be a bigot... your words speak for themselves...

And if the NRA's reason for sticking to rural areas is economic, as you claim, then WHY would they do that when the nation's population is experiencing a HUGE demographic shift from rural to urban and suburban areas? Why would they INTENTIONALLY deal only with a small and shrinking segment of the American population? When there are SO MANY MORE people in cities and suburbs, why don't they try to RECRUIT THEM? Come on, Netghost, help us out here with an explanation.

Dumb ass...... their membership is in in the rural areas !!!...from thief view, who cares about the demographic shift?... client base is all, that's where the money is.

In the first place, I never used the term "poor, downtrodden youth," so I'll thank you not to present it as if it came from me. In the second place, your solution of using the Boy Scouts is only suitable for males up to the age of 21. What's a male over 21 to do? Or a female of any age? You appear to be making excuses for the non- present NRA, which can't be bothered to support its OWN STATED AIM.

NO !!! I DID !!!!!!... That seems to be your main "sticking point"... who are "the Gang Bangers" anyway?... you seem to be putting all of the gun violence on anyone except the ones who are doing it !!!!!... now, why is there such a escalation in gun violence in the urban environment?... can you even say, "The war on drugs" ?... just for fun, try looking at the root causes of the problem... prohibition didn't work the first time... why should it work this time?

Again, I never used the phrase "someone else's fault," so please use single quotes. If you plan to use my own words, then you are welcome to use doubles. Otherwise, please be honest with us all.

I'll use "quotes when I see fit" !!!!... those were my words and you can kiss my ass if "you" don't like them.

Further, please show me where I blamed gun violence on this nebulous 'someone else.' Direct quotes from my posts will be most appreciated.

Your own words say it all....... It's not the shooter... It's the NRA"S fault... or "someone elses" fault... grow up "Boy"... I don't care what your ethnic background is... time to grow up.

Frank couldn't do it. Newsman couldn't do it. Irrational couldn't do it. You won't be able to, either.

Wanna bet?

None of you bother to read what I say because your knees are jerking too violently. Too bad. You might learn something if you could pay attention better. Try Ritalin. And maybe some remedial reading classes.

I've read what you said and it's "bullshit" ... poor baby !!! the minorities are so picked on they are almost in the majorities these days.... pull your head out of your retentive orifice and see life the way it really is

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 01, 2000.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 02, 2000.

Poor baby !!!!!!!... so you didn't get your ass kissed this time?

Don't blame all of us Minorities for your blind misconceptions... We and "them" have our own agendas... and they don't include "your type" of racist... I don't know if you "get it" yet... but can you say "fuck you"?... and your views?

-- Netghost (Ng@no.yr), July 02, 2000.

Damn, I didn't think anyone could prove themselves more stupid than Irrational, but Nutghost just did. Let's have a look.

"You don't have to "indicate your race" to be a bigot... your words speak for themselves..."

Incorrect. If I'm white, and I call you a "cracker," then how does that make me a bigot? If I'm black, and I call someone a "nigger," how does that make me a bigot? It is ACTS, not WORDS, that define racism and bigotry. Plus, your argumentation tactic of "your words speak for themselves" is the logical equivalent of 'everybody knows that . . . ", and it is argument by guessing. It is yet another argumentation tactic of a loser. Things aren't so simply because YOU say they are so, Netghost. Cough up something provable.

"Dumb ass...... their membership is in in the rural areas !!!...from thief view, who cares about the demographic shift?... client base is all, that's where the money is."

Uh uh. Incorrect again, Netghost. The population and MONEY of the US is shifting AWAY from rural areas and TOWARD urban and suburban areas. Per-capita income is growing FASTER in urban and suburban areas, the percentage of the US population living in urban and suburban areas is increasing (while it is decreasing in rural areas) and birth rates in urban and suburban areas are passing birth rates in rural areas. If the NRA insists on keeping its activities in rural areas, its membership base will dwindle away before too long. Is THAT smart, Netghost? WHY do that? The NRA has been losing membership and income in recent years. Do they have a death wish? Why NOT move some of their activities into urban and suburban areas in order to take advantage of the population and money THERE?

I'll tell you. Because the NRA doesn't want black or brown membership. Oh, sure, a few are okay here and there, but not a significant number. That's because black and brown people with guns and gun education are automatically dangerous, aren't they, Nutghost?

Plus, thanks for helping me make my point. I KNOW the NRA's membership is primarily in rural areas. THAT is why their actions DIRECTLY CONTRADICT THEIR STATED AIMS, which is what I have been posting here for a couple of months now. Idiot. Go back and read.

"NO !!! I DID !!!!!!... That seems to be your main "sticking point"..."

If your ignorant ass would ASK what my points are -- or even go back and READ THEM YOURSELF -- then you MIGHT discover that I have NOT BLAMED the NRA for gun violence. Go back, idiot. READ the posts before you open your ignorant yap.

"who are "the Gang Bangers" anyway?... you seem to be putting all of the gun violence on anyone except the ones who are doing it !!!!!..."

YOU ARE INCORRECT. Not all gun violence comes from minorities, and not all minorities COMMIT gun violence. Not every minority individual who lives in an urban area is a gangbanger. Not everyone who lives in the hood is packing heat. There are a lot of good- hardworking minority individuals downtown who want a job, a secure home and a chance to send their kids to college. But when THOSE people are touched by gun violence, people like you don't seem to want to differentiate between the perpetrator and the victim.

Go back and READ. TELL ME where I have blamed ANYONE for gun violence OTHER THAN THE PERPETRATORS. SHOW ME where I have blamed the NRA for that. PRESENT SOME OF MY POSTS to prove your point, Nutghost.

I have said, over and over, that the NRA and the March For Bullshit are both racist organizations, and that they prove it by their actions. I have presented evidence to support my statements. So far, few people have even tried to present a rebuttal, and those that have aren't even staying on the point. Like Irrational, they bring up stuff they WISH I had said, or stuff that they WANT me to think, because they can't rebut what I have said. Nutghost is doing the same thing. By claiming that I have blamed someone other than the perpetrators for gun violence, Nutghost is just doing the same old tired shit that Frank, Julie and Irrational have been doing. Doesn't work any better, either.

"now, why is there such a escalation in gun violence in the urban environment?... can you even say, "The war on drugs" ?... just for fun, try looking at the root causes of the problem... prohibition didn't work the first time... why should it work this time?"

I did comment on the root causes. Did you miss those posts? There are a PILE of them. Maybe your ignorant ass should go back and READ.

Further, gun violence in urban areas is DOWN over the last few years, NOT UP, Nutghost. Gun violence is middle- and upper-class areas is UP, and that's the only reason we see shit like the Million Mom March For Bullshit. They didn't give a shit about gun violence as long as it was just poor goddamned black and brown people shooting each other. But now that WHITE SUBURBAN KIDS are shooting each other, well, they can't STAND THAT. The simple fact is, Nutghost, gun violence is DOWN in urban areas, and it is DOWN in the country as a whole. So get your facts straight, ignoramus.

""Again, I never used the phrase "someone else's fault," so please use single quotes. If you plan to use my own words, then you are welcome to use doubles. Otherwise, please be honest with us all.""

"I'll use "quotes when I see fit" !!!!... those were my words and you can kiss my ass if "you" don't like them."

Oh, your ass is EASY to kick, Nutghost. You'll be about as easy to dispose of as Julie, Frank and Irrational. Maybe easier.

""Further, please show me where I blamed gun violence on this nebulous 'someone else.' Direct quotes from my posts will be most appreciated.""

"Your own words say it all....... It's not the shooter... It's the NRA"S fault... or "someone elses" fault... grow up "Boy"... I don't care what your ethnic background is... time to grow up."

SHOW ME. SHOW ME WHERE I ONCE BLAMED ANYONE OTHER THAN THE PERPETRATOR. You CAN'T, because I never have. You're guessing again, Nutghost, bringing up shit you WISH I said. You can't keep your mind on what I HAVE said, so you drift over to shit you WISH I said. Go ahead, dumbass. Fight with an argument I never made. Disagree with your own straw man. I'm over here, saying something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from what you're arguing about.

If my own words "say it all," then you shouldn't have any problem reposting those words here for everyone to see, should you?

""Frank couldn't do it. Newsman couldn't do it. Irrational couldn't do it. You won't be able to, either.""

"Wanna bet?"

Yes. You haven't done it, and you're not going to. You're not going to, because there aren't any posts of mine that MAKE that point. I have never BLAMED anyone other than the perpetrators for gun violence, so you're not going to be ABLE to find any of my posts that blame anyone other than the perpetrators for it. But don't let that stop you, Nutghost. Go on and read all my posts. Then maybe you'll be able to argue on topic. I'd appreciate having someone to joust with who doesn't run away like Julie, Frank and Irrational did.

"I've read what you said and it's "bullshit" ... poor baby !!!"

No, you haven't. You haven't read it at all. If you had, then you'd know that I never raised any of the positions you're arguing against.

"the minorities are so picked on they are almost in the majorities these days...."

Who said that minorities are being picked on? I didn't. So why do you bring it up? Need another straw man to fight with?

"pull your head out of your retentive orifice and see life the way it really is"

Come on down to the hood and get educated in how life really is. I'll be glad to show you what you don't know.

"Poor baby !!!!!!!... so you didn't get your ass kissed this time?"

I don't expect anyone to kiss my ass. Do you? "Don't blame all of us Minorities for your blind misconceptions..."

I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate to me where those misconceptions of mine might be. So far, I am only seeing insults and guesses from you.

"We and "them" have our own agendas... and they don't include "your type" of racist..."

Uh huh. Maybe I'm a racist, and maybe I'm not. You use racism as an excuse. It is an excuse for you to avoid talking about what I am talking about. Another argumentation tactic of a loser.

"I don't know if you "get it" yet... but can you say "fuck you"?... and your views?"

Netghost, you make me yawn. Like Frank and Irrational, you can't argue, and you can't keep on topic. Hurry back, so I can kick your ass again, moron. Oh, and when you do, maybe you could respond to this nugget that you so conveniently overlooked:

"In the second place, your solution of using the Boy Scouts is only suitable for males up to the age of 21. What's a male over 21 to do? Or a female of any age? You appear to be making excuses for the non- present NRA, which can't be bothered to support its OWN STATED AIM."

I look forward to your unreasoning, frothing non-sequitur of a reply. Idiot.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 02, 2000.

Well... you effectively Killed this thread with you non-thinking attacks on anyone that tried to interject some reasoning into the debate.

I don't give a fuck where the demographics of where the people go... neither does the NRA... Their "base group" is in the "rural" areas and neither you nor I can change that... just a fact of life... try to get over that.

Like a lot of organizations do, like the Boy Scouts and the NRA, they try to target specific groups... if you don't like the groups they target... why the hell don't you get off your fat ass and start your own group to address your personal bitch?

Is this another example of blaming anyone except the ones that are responsible for their actions?... BTW... have a bad day, just for me.....

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 02, 2000.

Oh, look, Nutghost is back with his Nutposts.

"Well... you effectively Killed this thread"

Horseshit. This thread's still alive and kicking after almost THREE MONTHS. You're still posting, aren't you?

"with you non-thinking attacks"

There's more thought in one of my posts than there has been in ALL of Irrational's posts, PLUS your posts, all put together. Neither of you, nor Frank, nor Newsman, nor Julie have EVER bothered to discuss the points I have ACTUALLY RAISED, and INSTEAD try to manipulate the discussion to make it LOOK like I have SAID SOMETHING I HAVEN'T. THOSE are your non-thinking attacks, moron. And they come from YOU and Irrational.

"on anyone that tried to interject some reasoning into the debate."

Oh, BULLSHIT. NONE of you have tried to inject ANY reasoning into the debate. NONE of you answer questions. ALL of you avoid responding with facts, data, statistics or hard numbers. You have no reasoning capability at all, cracker-ass BITCH.

"I don't give a fuck where the demographics of where the people go... neither does the NRA..."

They should. Especially since their target population is dwindling. The NRA claims that it is a middle-of-the-road organization, but it's pretty hard to claim that when your membership comes from one small and shrinking part of the American population at large. It's a pretty good way to marginalize themselves, rather than to thrive and succeed.

"Their "base group" is in the "rural" areas and neither you nor I can change that..."

Who said I was trying to change that? I observed that the NRA is a racist organization and cited facts to prove my point. Where did I say I wanted to change that? I'd like it to BE changed, but I have no illusions about changing it myself. Work on your reading skills.

Damn, you're stupid, Netghost.

"just a fact of life... try to get over that."

Maybe the Million Moms should recognize that gun violence is dropping everywhere but in white suburbs. That's a fact of life. Would you suggest that THEY get over THAT?

"Like a lot of organizations do, like the Boy Scouts and the NRA, they try to target specific groups..."

That's NOT WHAT THE NRA SAYS. THEY SPECIFICALLY CLAIM TO REPRESENT THE ENTIRE GUN-OWNING POPULATION OF THE USA. Not the white ones, not the rural ones -- ALL of them. You are WRONG, Nutghost.

"if you don't like the groups they target... why the hell don't you get off your fat ass and start your own group to address your personal bitch?"

If you would take your ignorant cracker ass back and READ MY POSTS, you would see that I HAVE DONE SO ALREADY, IDIOT.

So fuck you, racist suck-ass.

"Is this another example of blaming anyone except the ones that are responsible for their actions?"

You haven't even presented ONE example of me blaming someone else, moron. You'll need to present ONE example before you can present ANOTHER example.

Illiterate cracker-ass sack of SHIT.

"... BTW... have a bad day, just for me....."

Thanks for the good wishes. BTW, learn to read today, just for me.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 03, 2000.

Here you go, Nutghost. Anita figured out my points quite a while ago. Maybe if you read these real slowly, you'll figure out what the discussion's about. And THEN maybe you could keep on topic instead of building straw men to fight with. Dumbshit.

+++++++++

If I may be so bold as to summarize Million Mom's arguments:

1. The Milion Mom March advocates never cared about guns until they saw violence affecting their own kind.

2. The NRA CLAIMS to advocate gun use, education in proper use, etc. for EVERYONE, but they really don't.

Both sides are looking out for their own best interest. Where were the Million Moms when violence affected ONLY OTHER people? Where was the NRA when they COULD have been teaching gun safety to folks in urban areas?

Of course MM will correct me if my summary is incorrect, but this is how *I* saw the arguments unfold.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), June 11, 2000.

+++++++++++++++++++++

Get back to me real soon, Nutghost. I'm itching to kick your ass again.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 03, 2000.

Well Spanky, I see youre making new friends this morning. So you dont be confused no more, the NRA represents LEGAL gun owners. That pretty much eliminates all of you slum scum from the deal. Hey, why not start your OWN gun lobby group? Lets see, you could call it the NDBA (National Drive By Association) or how bout NCJA (National Car Jackers Association)?

What ever happened to your gator mouth wife? Or was that just you in drag having a bad hair day?

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 03, 2000.

"Well Spanky, I see youre making new friends this morning."

Yawn. He's about as effective as you, which is to say 'impotent.' And just so you understand, 'impotent' does not = 'important.'

He's got about the same level of reading skills as you, which is to say 'junior high school.'

Maybe you could post another of your lame-ass verses here. Or maybe you could actually do some READING for a change. Still deep in the muscle-car magazines and the back issues of "Fantastic Four?" Don't forget to send away for the x-ray specs advertised in the back; maybe that will help you to see past the fog of purple prose in front of your face.

BTW, you need to get outside into the real world once in a while. You'll never get a tan from the glare of your computer screen.

"So you dont be confused no more, the NRA represents LEGAL gun owners. That pretty much eliminates all of you slum scum from the deal."

So YOU don't be confused no more, the NRA represents legal gun owners of ALL RACES. But a racist like yourself wouldn't think that a black or brown person could legally own a gun. I bet you don't think black or brown people should be able to legally VOTE either, do you?

Well, surprise, surprise, there are PLENTY of black and brown people in this country that own weapons legally. There are also plenty of white people in this country that own weapons ILLEGALLY. Ask Randy Weaver about that last part.

Oh, BTW, Irrational, "legal gun owners" pretty much eliminates pedophiles, rapists, burglars and public masturbators from being covered under the NRA's umbrella. So think about that when you send in your membership renewal and dues, okay?

Oh, one more thing. The NRA does NOT SAY "legal" gun owners. But they SHOULD say "legal" gun owners. Right now, the way they say it, they include ALL GUN OWNERS, LEGAL OR NOT. Those are THEIR words, Irrational, no matter how you want to try to spin it.

They SHOULD be representing LEGAL gun owners of all races, but instead, they represent white gun owners, whether they are legal owners or not. Is that what you want, Irrational? Because that's what you've GOT.

"Hey, why not start your OWN gun lobby group? Lets see, you could call it the NDBA (National Drive By Association) or how bout NCJA (National Car Jackers Association)?"

Yawn. Go eat your peanut butter and jelly on Wonder Bread, cracker- ass BITCH.

You know good and well that I want to see ALL lawbreakers locked up -- I can't even remember how many times I have said it -- but you insist on presenting your argument as if I am arguing in FAVOR of the lawbreakers.

Hey, IDIOT. Not all poor goddamned brown and black people who live downtown are lawbreakers. Many of them are hardworking, good-hearted people who are trying to play by the rules and get a little farther ahead than their parents got. But assholes like you lump them all together and throw them to the wolves. Fuck you.

"What ever happened to your gator mouth wife? Or was that just you in drag having a bad hair day?

She's in the kitchen right now. Which is probably where you think all women should be, barefoot and pregnant. As ignorant as you are about minorities, I can only imagine what you think about women.

Did you buy your wife from a catalog, Irrational? When you got her, was she still sticky from all the stamps?

Oh, wait, I bet you're not married. Barely-literate angry white men with no marketable skills aren't generally very attractive to today's women. Even if they did come postage due from overseas.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 03, 2000.

Here are some current offerings by the NRA. Last time I checked these cities had a significant minority population. What you say to this MFB?

TRAINING - Basic, Competition Camps Slated

JUNE 28-JULY 2 - NEW ORLEANS, LA Mickey Brondum (504) 682-7597

Refuse To Be A Victim

RTBAV Seminars and Instructor Workshops offer strategies for personal safety. Call (800) 861 1166. Seminars/Instructor Workshops JULY 15 - SAN ANTONIO, TX JULY 22 - AUSTIN, TX

-- The (fact@fan.attic), July 03, 2000.

Fanatic has posted some information for our use. Let's have a look.

"Here are some current offerings by the NRA. Last time I checked these cities had a significant minority population. What you say to this MFB?"

"TRAINING - Basic, Competition Camps Slated"

"JUNE 28-JULY 2 - NEW ORLEANS, LA Mickey Brondum (504) 682-7597"

This is good, IF true and IF it was actually held in a minority area. Have you called to see where the workshop was held? If it was held downtown or in a mostly-minority area, then your point would be salient and well-put. However, if this workshop took place in a well- heeled, mostly-white suburb, then it actually strengthens my point. Would you care to check up on this, or would you prefer I do it myself?

"Refuse To Be A Victim"

"RTBAV Seminars and Instructor Workshops offer strategies for personal safety. Call (800) 861 1166. Seminars/Instructor Workshops JULY 15 - SAN ANTONIO, TX JULY 22 - AUSTIN, TX"

Yes, San Antonio and Austin do have significant minority populations, but Austin in particular has some extremely well-off areas. So, just as before, I'd like to know where, exactly, these workshops are being held. If we're talking about a middle- or upper-class mostly-white suburb, then you're helping me make my point.

You've made a good start, but we really need more detail here, Fanatic. You see, if the NRA holds an educational workshop or event in the New York City area, it makes a big difference whether it happens in the Bronx or out in the Hamptons, in Brooklyn or in Short Hills, New Jersey, in Manhattan or Westchester. Same thing holds true in the Kansas City area. Overland Park isn't the same thing as Kansas City, Missouri (across the river). In the Detroit area, Grosse Pointe isn't the same thing as Romulus or Hamtramck. And in Atlanta, Buckhead and East Point are two very different suburbs.

With a little more specificity, you might be on your way to making a good point. Continue to be polite, and I might help you make it.

Thanks for participating, Fanatic.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 03, 2000.

Today, not wanting to be part of the problem, but of the solution, I sat down with two of my good friends and discussed this very issue at work. (For the sake of their privacy, I'll only use their initials.) M, a single mom, 26 years old, with two young kids, lives in the projects and has to deal with crime and gunfire every day. (A few days ago, M had 8 squad cars go by her house chasing a would-be carjacker running down her street.) S, single with no kids, 22 years old, and is middle class. Me, I'm single with no kids, middle-class and 31 years old. For those who think it matters, my friends are African-American and I'm White.

We discussed violence, social issues and racism in today's society. When I asked if NRA assistance would help stop violence, both emphatically said "No", in fact, it would probably be resented, construed as an intrusion by outsiders. As for the Million Mom March, M said that the only way it would have helped was if it marched down the very streets where the violence was taking place. She also said (quote) "Taking back the streets is the only way to stop the crime, to keep the kids away from the crack addicts, to keep the bangers from destroying the neighborhoods." Both M and S went on to say that better schools and other after-school alternatives for kids might do a great deal more in keeping kids away from bad influences, both on the streets and at home. Throwing more money with more welfare programs wouldn't solve the issues, that self-pride and responsibility for one's own actions are what is needed. Both M and S also said that the stigma of history slavery has left a mark on African-Americans, but that this stigma MUST be left behind, that we can't change the past, but can, and must change the future. Causing racial divisions (by both Black and White people) doesn't do anyone any good, it just buries the problem deeper, letting it get worse by the day.

What caused the most despair for M and S was the fact that there are so many family problems, that many parents don't care about their children, that some parents actively encourage disrespect for others and that violence *is* an acceptable method to get what you want. The lack of good family relations was, to us, the crux of the matter, that no matter what other actions were taken, unless the parents took an active interest in raising their kids, long-lasting positive change would never really take hold. Both M and S suggested that the local churches go outside their congregations and start to work with non-members, to help work with those who had the least hope. (One example is M's church, who went out and bought 3 homes for non-member families that had nowhere to live.) M went on to tell of a local Columbus preacher who went out onto the streets to preach the Gospel - he was threatened with guns by gang members, but refused to stop preaching and eventually turned three kids' lives around. Many of the others are in jail or soon will be. Both M and S have done some volunteer work in the poorest neighborhoods and at the schools and were very discouraged by how the children acted, with a total lack of disrespect and a lot of violence. Neither M or S knew what could be done to really positively influence these worst-type kids, they were really out of control, that their families didn't care about them and the school was powerless to change them. What really bothered S was the fact that many Blacks are portrayed (by both Black and White) as naturally being violent, which isn't really true - the problem is, is that many inner-city young men WANT to believe it, that they don't see many positive male role-models that might change their minds. Being a smart, educated, hard-working Black person, S has been called an "Oreo" (Black on the outside, White inside) or asked "Why do you want to be a Whiteman?". S said that the barrage of violent "Gangsta" rap hasn't helped to stem the tide of violence or the breakdown of the family.

I feel that gun control won't really solve the issue, that deeper, more personal issues are at stake here. It's more of a community problem, with a strong church influence needed. Anger and hatred will only cause more pain and suffering, and hasten the destruction of a culture. Honest, open talk is the only way to solve the problem. We're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

My 2 cents on this...

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 03, 2000.

Deb has weighed in. Good for Deb.

Today, not wanting to be part of the problem, but of the solution, I sat down with two of my good friends and discussed this very issue at work. . . For those who think it matters, my friends are African- American and I'm White.

I dont think it matters. Some people on this thread do. It was a positive move on your part to discuss the matter with your associates.

We discussed violence, social issues and racism in today's society. When I asked if NRA assistance would help stop violence, both emphatically said "No", in fact, it would probably be resented, construed as an intrusion by outsiders.

Thats a point well taken, but your associates dont speak for all minorities any more than I do. In any event, youre not addressing this point (borrowed again from Anitas summary) that I have made on several occasions: The NRA CLAIMS to advocate gun use, education in proper use, etc. for EVERYONE, but they really don't.

Heres another repost of something I have said on this thread in the past. This was an exchange between myself and Newsman.

+++++

Quoth the Newsman:

From some of the previous posts on this thread, I'm getting the feeling that some people perceive that the gun violence problem in ghetto areas is somehow the fault of the NRA not teaching firearms safety classes in those areas. This is absurd.

Well, yeah, it would be, wouldnt it? But I didnt SAY that. I said that the NRAs STATED AIMS of increasing gun safety through education and defending gun ownership rights ARE DIRECTLY REFUTED by its collective behavior towards low-income and urban minorities. As hard as you may look, you will not find me or anyone else on this thread DIRECTLY BLAMING the NRA for that.

HOWEVER, we SHOULD be asking the following questions of the NRA:

If gun education is a desirable and necessary precursor to reduced levels of gun violence, then why does the NRA not conduct gun education courses and clinics in inner cities, where rates of gun violence are significantly above the norm? Would that not serve the triple purpose of proving the NRAs point, proving the NRAs worth AND reducing gun violence in the areas where it is highest?

If the NRA supports gun ownership rights for all Americans, why does your organization not actively recruit minorities, who will soon outnumber whites as citizens? Surely donations and dues from minority members would help offset the income and membership loss the NRA has suffered in the last two years.

A gun show is the economic equivalent of two individuals on a street corner, exchanging money for a firearm. Given that the economic transaction is precisely the same, why does the NRA defend the participants in one transaction (the gun show), yet call for the arrest and prosecution of the participants in the other transaction? Whats different about the two transactions?

Its really SIMPLE, Newsman. The stated goals of the NRA are DIRECTLY REFUTED by the NRAs BEHAVIOR toward low-income and urban minorities. Thats all. Aint no blaming going on, and you point some out to me if you think theres been any.

++++

Back to Debs comments.

As for the Million Mom March, M said that the only way it would have helped was if it marched down the very streets where the violence was taking place.

I agree. The March For Bullshit wasnt for inner-city residents. It was for middle- and upper-class people, and generally white ones.

She also said (quote) "Taking back the streets is the only way to stop the crime, to keep the kids away from the crack addicts, to keep the bangers from destroying the neighborhoods." Both M and S went on to say that better schools and other after-school alternatives for kids might do a great deal more in keeping kids away from bad influences, both on the streets and at home.

I agree with all of this. In fact, I've pretty much said it all already.

Throwing more money with more welfare programs wouldn't solve the issues, that self-pride and responsibility for one's own actions are what is needed.

I agree with this. My wife and I have posted much the same messages here on this thread, and on the predecessor thread. We have both said that more money wont solve the issue. Frank and Irrational do not appear to recognize that we have said that.

Both M and S also said that the stigma of history slavery has left a mark on African-Americans, but that this stigma MUST be left behind, that we can't change the past, but can, and must change the future. Causing racial divisions (by both Black and White people) doesn't do anyone any good, it just buries the problem deeper, letting it get worse by the day.

I agree. But I fear there are many on both sides who cannot get past those issues.

What caused the most despair for M and S was the fact that there are so many family problems, that many parents don't care about their children, that some parents actively encourage disrespect for others and that violence *is* an acceptable method to get what you want. The lack of good family relations was, to us, the crux of the matter, that no matter what other actions were taken, unless the parents took an active interest in raising their kids, long-lasting positive change would never really take hold.

Im not so sure that there are parents who actually ENCOURAGE such behavior, but your associates may have had different experiences than I have.

Both M and S suggested that the local churches go outside their congregations and start to work with non-members, to help work with those who had the least hope. (One example is M's church, who went out and bought 3 homes for non-member families that had nowhere to live.) M went on to tell of a local Columbus preacher who went out onto the streets to preach the Gospel - he was threatened with guns by gang members, but refused to stop preaching and eventually turned three kids' lives around.

This is all well and good, but too few churches engage in this sort of outreach. And leaving the matter in the hands of churches and congregations is not a satisfactory solution to my mind. If some churches WANT to take this role, I have no objection, but in areas where a church CANNOT or WILL NOT take on the role, you cant force a congregation to take charge of it. Some other group or organization must step up to the plate. Besides, if churches are the best possible solution, where have they been and what took them so long? And who's going to say "okay, all churches, let's take this on?"

Both M and S have done some volunteer work in the poorest neighborhoods and at the schools and were very discouraged by how the children acted, with a total lack of disrespect and a lot of violence.

I agree. I have also seen this.

Neither M or S knew what could be done to really positively influence these worst-type kids, they were really out of control, that their families didn't care about them and the school was powerless to change them.

I dont know what can be done in that area either, so I have focused my efforts on preventing crime (with a well-organized neighborhood watch), community outreach efforts (cleaning up, maintaining and operating parks and a community center) and rapidly responding to crisis situations. We have also pressured our local police into providing community-based officers (beat cops) in our area. We are actively encouraging police officers to move into our area, and plan to offer any officers who will do so a partial rent reimbursement at some point in the future, pending legal review.

What really bothered S was the fact that many Blacks are portrayed (by both Black and White) as naturally being violent, which isn't really true - the problem is, is that many inner-city young men WANT to believe it, that they don't see many positive male role-models that might change their minds.

Yes, weve all seen how Nutghost and Irrational portray urban minorities on this and other threads.

Being a smart, educated, hard-working Black person, S has been called an "Oreo" (Black on the outside, White inside) or asked "Why do you want to be a Whiteman?". S said that the barrage of violent "Gangsta" rap hasn't helped to stem the tide of violence or the breakdown of the family.

Gangsta rap isn't a cause of violence, nor is it a solution, and neither should it be either one. It is only a symptom. Pointing the finger at music is a quick way to lose what little respect you can earn from gangbangers. And let's not forget that Mrs. Gore founded the PMRC back in the mid-80s to launch attacks on what she felt were inappropriate songs and bands. Yet inappropriate music does not lead to violence any more than inappropriate clothes at the mall lead to overdrawn checking accounts.

I feel that gun control won't really solve the issue,

I agree that it will not SOLVE the issue. But properly applied, in a restrained fashion, it might help. In addition, many people who are opposed to gun control are very, very eager to see existing gun laws prosecuted more aggressively. Regrettably, prisons are overcrowded, and so our legal system sees fit to release many felons before they have served their sentences. Still, I would also like to see more aggressive prosecution of gun-related crimes, and I would like to see felons serving their full sentences.

that deeper, more personal issues are at stake here. It's more of a community problem, with a strong church influence needed.

I disagree. I do not think that church influence is necessary or even desirable. If a church is willing to take on the role and SEE IT THROUGH, then I have no objection to that. But I do not believe that anyones interest is served by declaiming lets let the churches handle it and then sitting around to see if any churches rise to the bait. However, if a church is going to take on the role and then bail out after a year or two, either because its too difficult or costs too much, then why bother? Id rather see a different community group take on the role rather than relying on a church to do it and then pull out.

Anger and hatred will only cause more pain and suffering, and hasten the destruction of a culture. Honest, open talk is the only way to solve the problem. We're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

Well said. I agree.

My 2 cents on this...

Thanks for your participation, Deb.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 03, 2000.

Deb M? Deb M? Could this be the same Deb M that came on to this forum a few months ago and ranted about the disgusting activities of her minority co-workers? The same Deb M who said she had just left her government job because she could no longer put up with the attitude and behavior of her slacker black co-workers? Naw, couldnt be the same Deb M. Anyone want to check the archives? Just another case of two-faced, forked-tongue Internet bullshit.

MFB, why dont you join the NRA and campaign for activity in the areas of your concern? You can rest assured that your passionate position here on this forum is getting you zero results. Personally, I enjoy yanking your short chain but thats starting to get old. If you REALLY believe in your stated complaints then do something constructive. I would guess that an equal dispensing of your energies in a valid effort could have results. Or not.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 03, 2000.

Anger and hatred will only cause more pain and suffering, and hasten the destruction of a culture. Honest, open talk is the only way to solve the problem. We're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

Well said. I agree. .

Then why do you come off with so much hatred and anger in your replies to other posters?

Yes, weve all seen how Nutghost and Irrational portray urban minorities on this and other threads.

Perhaps you need to improve your reading skills also... you also might try growing up and stopping the Grade school ploy of name calling... you'll garner more respect that way.

Neither M or S knew what could be done to really positively influence these worst-type kids, they were really out of control, that their families didn't care about them and the school was powerless to change them.

I dont know what can be done in that area either, so I have focused my efforts on preventing crime (with a well-organized neighborhood watch), community outreach efforts (cleaning up, maintaining and operating parks and a community center) and rapidly responding to crisis situations. We have also pressured our local police into providing community-based officers (beat cops) in our area. We are actively encouraging police officers to move into our area, and plan to offer any officers who will do so a partial rent reimbursement at some point in the future, pending legal review. 

Glad you are trying to do something about the problem other than just giving it lip service on the net... try this for a thought, I'm not saying it's the solution for all of the problems, but it might be a start. Reign in the schools and Family services that teach our children that they can have their parents thrown in jail if they raise a hand to them. I'm not some kind of religious nut, but the Bible does have some good advice, if taken in moderation... the one quote that comes to mind is "spare the rod, spoil the child"... I'm not advocating child abuse, but sometimes "time out" doesn't work (it didn't with me, but a switch did :-) and the would be against the law in most states today... time to change the laws.

Another thing that I know I'll draw fire from, but might also be a help in the violence area is...... Make drugs legal... this would end the incentive for Drug gangs and stop most of the crime in the inner-cities, and as far as that goes, in the rural areas where I live.

MFB, no matter how much you'd like to portray me as a racist, I'm not. Where I live we have a huge Mexican population and Native American Pop (BTW... they hate that term and are proud of their heritage)... we also have a large population of S.E.Asians and we are getting a small scattering of Negroes (is that PC?)... we all seem to get along, and I know I'll get some grief for this statement, but, my list of friends pretty much reflects the demographics of this area.

K... fire away :-)

-- Nutghost (ng@no.yr), July 03, 2000.

Ra,

Yes, I did leave working for EEO because I couldn't stand working with lying bigots downtown. I had/still have a lot of anger and resentment towards them. However, not everyone is like them, as my new co-workers have shown me.

When I first left EEO, I had a choice - either I treat ALL minorities like the racists I used to work with, or else I try to get past that experience and take people on a case-by-case basis. I don't want to become just like the jerks I used to work with, I'm better than that. It might be easier to respond to racism with more racism, but it really doesn't solve the issue, Ra. Out there, there are innocent people who are suffering, who have never done wrong to you or I. Should I let my anger with a small group of people affect those others? At first I thought, "why not". But that's not right, it's not honorable. Sooner or later, we all pay for our actions, either in this world or the next. I sure don't want to have to "pay up" for selfish actions in the next.

Lying, no. With a little help from new friends, I'm able to see a little past the anger. It's not a perfect answer, Ra, but it's the best I've got right now. I'd rather have compassion in my life than a lot of anger.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 04, 2000.

Deb, you are to be admired for your honesty and forthrightness. Have a great 4th!!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), July 04, 2000.

"MFB, no matter how much you'd like to portray me as a racist, I'm not. Where I live we have a huge Mexican population and Native American Pop (BTW... they hate that term and are proud of their heritage)... we also have a large population of S.E.Asians and we are getting a small scattering of Negroes (is that PC?)... we all seem to get along, and I know I'll get some grief for this statement, but, my list of friends pretty much reflects the demographics of this area."

Translation: Some of my best neighbors are colored people. They keep their yards real clean. We joke around all the time, I call them niggers and spics and they call me massa. We have us a real good time, so long as they don't look at my wife or daughter or git too close to Geetch, my old smell hound.

-- Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel (cletus@under.that.sheet), July 04, 2000.

MFB,

A couple of points I wanted to touch on here:

1. Church influence: This is not saying that we should dump the matter on the churches' laps and throw personal responsibility out the window - far from it. However, according to M and S, the church would be a good place to start, giving those who can't stand alone to have a place to "stand together", strength in numbers, so to speak. It gives them a group of like-minded people to speak to, to try to help start making changes. As to how to get the churches working together, I don't really know. If they're really dedicated to community service, then they'll see the need and get to work. Perhaps they already are, but I'm just not aware of it.

2. Yes, weve all seen how Nutghost and Irrational portray urban minorities on this and other threads.

To tell the truth, I've made some mistakes myself. There are some kids though who are so very violent - like you admitted, the violence in the schools is incredible. From standing outside the issue, it's very easy to "paint" all of the kids with the same brush. It may not be right, but it's easy to do. (Both my brother and my cousin were once stopped and frisked by the police, while they were cutting firewood, because the had long hair, dressed sorta ragged, and the cars were in rough shape.)

Also consider, that some minorities WANT to think of themselves that way. Both M and S have stated that gang members are always glorifying themselves as being violent, as "violence brings power" as an ideal. Remember Being a smart, educated, hard-working Black person, S has been called an "Oreo" (Black on the outside, White inside) or asked "Why do you want to be a Whiteman?."?

Some of the Black community can't imagine minorities as being hardworking, smart and educated. M and S laid the blame as partially from preconceptions, but mainly from the lack of good family relations, for a lack of good role models in their society. The finger can't always be pointed outside, MFB, it has to be pointed inward too. Personal responsibility, IMO, is the only way that real, long lasting, change will ever be accomplished. Outside racism is part of the issue, which must be addressed, but, IMO, concentrating on ONLY that issue is side-stepping the real problem, that of taking personal responsibility for those around them and starting to make changes. Your actions, such as community outreach and rapid crises response, are excellent examples of what needs to be done in many (minority and non-minority) communities to help stabilize them. Pulling together as a community will get more done than solely relying upon outside intervention, IMO.

3. "S said that the barrage of violent "Gangsta" rap hasn't helped to stem the tide of violence or the breakdown of the family.

Gangsta rap isn't a cause of violence, nor is it a solution, and neither should it be either one. It is only a symptom. Pointing the finger at music is a quick way to lose what little respect you can earn from gangbangers. And let's not forget that Mrs. Gore founded the PMRC back in the mid-80s to launch attacks on what she felt were inappropriate songs and bands. Yet inappropriate music does not lead to violence any more than inappropriate clothes at the mall lead to overdrawn checking accounts.

Here, I have to disagree with you, MFB. Personally, the PMRC is toothless - some of the songs out there are really hideous, IMO. Both M and S have said, repeatedly, that the lyrics desensitize kids to violence and that the gangers portrayed, are "heroic". Sooner or later, if violent behavior is being portrayed as being acceptable, then these kids will act upon it. Visual role models are very important, especially to those without a good home life - somehow I doubt that gangsta rap is going to be a positive influence on those kids. To me, it seems to reinforce the negative stereotypes of minorities - that they *can't* be smart, educated or hardworking - that the MUST be violent, lazy, and resentful. IMO, it's very sad to see that self-pride is being modeled on such destructive behavior.

I really don't understand your opinion on this matter - to me the cause/effect is readily appearant.

4. As for gun control, it depends on what measures you're advocating for. Whatever laws that would be applied, might (or might not) actually help the communities in question. What I think is pretty certain though is that it'll be a hard sell to others who don't see the need for that action, in their community. I know, even though people are suffering, that I'd be pretty resentful of gov't influencing more of my own actions. M made one statement about how she thought the gov't needed to have more harsh laws, maybe even start taking away freedoms. That statement really made me cringe, becuase even though it might stop *some* of the violence, in the long- term, IMO, it'd only build resentment and let the violence fester. People have to *want* to change, not be forced into "making the motions". Prohibition is an example of that mistake...

Anyway, best wishes towards your efforts. I hope that we can all reach towards a better understanding of one another.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 04, 2000.

Ra,

Thank you. God Bless you and I hope you have a great 4th too!

All,

Have a great 4th and best wishes to you all. Have a wonderful, safe holiday!

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 04, 2000.

"MFB, no matter how much you'd like to portray me as a racist, I'm not. Where I live we have a huge Mexican population and Native American Pop (BTW... they hate that term and are proud of their heritage)... we also have a large population of S.E.Asians and we are getting a small scattering of Negroes (is that PC?)... we all seem to get along, and I know I'll get some grief for this statement, but, my list of friends pretty much reflects the demographics of this area."

Translation: Some of my best neighbors are colored people. They keep their yards real clean. We joke around all the time, I call them niggers and spics and they call me massa. We have us a real good time, so long as they don't look at my wife or daughter or git too close to Geetch, my old smell hound.

-- Cletus the Slack Jawed Yokel (cletus@under.that.sheet), July 04, 2000.

Hmmm... Cletus, your own tranlation defines you.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 04, 2000.

Was Cletus really black?

-- Alex (alex@the.great.con), July 04, 2000.

Alex... Who knows, or cares?

Deep down anger knows no color, it's just the anger and hate, just for it's own reason.

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 04, 2000.

MFB,

Is the thread truely dead?... or are you starting to think of what I, and others said?

It's been almost 24 hours since you posted... have you been abducted by aliens? :-)

-- Netghost (ng@no.yr), July 05, 2000.

Oh, not at all, Nutghost. Just been away for a couple of days with my family for a vacation.

I've got a life off the board, you see. Rest assured I've got plenty more for you, Deb and Irrational.

BTW, I know you don't like the name-calling, but then again, I don't like your grade-school misspelling, mispunctuation and mangled syntax. Work on that, and maybe I'll ease up on the name-calling. I really don't use the tactic to please you, anyway, so who cares if you don't like it?

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 06, 2000.

MMM,

I don't understand why there is so much hatred and name-calling. You don't owe anyone anything, but if you truly are wanting to help stomp out racism, then getting out the message, peaceably, is the only way to go. Hatred and name-calling only cause others to ignore what you have to say, no matter if what you say is the truth or not.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to more discussion on minority self- perception and also about the impact of "Gangsta" Rap music on society (miornity and non-minority).

The only way to solve this issue is to band together, not force each other further apart.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 06, 2000.

Heres some stuff from Irrational. Here's something for everybody, especially including Irrational and Nutghost.

Irrational said

MFB, why dont you join the NRA and campaign for activity in the areas of your concern?

Irrational, how do you think I came by my opinions? Because I used to BE A MEMBER OF THE NRA UNTIL I DISCOVERED THEIR RACISM FIRST- HAND. Because I TRIED THREE TIMES to get Eddie Eagle at a local inner-city school and was refused. Because I tried to organize NRA events downtown, not far from the dangerous areas, and got put off for months. In your opinion, I'm probably just slow or stupid. Well, I might be slow, but eventually I got the message.

Do you think I just have it in for the NRA? Or did you consider that I might have developed my opinions after SEEING FIRST-HAND how the NRA operates (or doesnt operate) in urban areas?

You can rest assured that your passionate position here on this forum is getting you zero results.

Who said I expected any results from people on this forum? More shit I didnt say. BTW, Irrational, you can rest assured that your passionate position here on this forum is getting you zero results.

Personally, I enjoy yanking your short chain but thats starting to get old.

Personally, I enjoy seeing you run in fear and dodge my questions, but thats starting to get old.

If you REALLY believe in your stated complaints then do something constructive.

I am. And I have. Its just that I have already TRIED what you apparently believe is the only constructive approach. And it failed, several times, for no apparent reason. Just because YOU think that a certain approach is valid does not mean that it IS, in fact a valid approach. In this case, your valid approach is decidedly USELESS. I know, because Ive already TRIED it.

I would guess that an equal dispensing of your energies in a valid effort could have results. Or not.

Not if youre dealing with the NRA. You can ask all you want. There are places they just dont want to go. Usually, those places are full of lower-income urban minorities. Thanks for guessing again.

And theres this, from Nutghost.

Deb>Anger and hatred will only cause more pain and suffering, and hasten the destruction of a culture. Honest, open talk is the only way to solve the problem. We're all in this together, whether we like it or not.

MFB>Well said. I agree. .

Nutghost>Then why do you come off with so much hatred and anger in your replies to other posters?

I can be as angry and as upset as I please. And I please to be mighty angry when people like YOU and IRRATIONAL misrepresent my arguments and try to claim I have said something I havent. I also please to be plenty angry when people waste time arguing over whether the NRA or the Million Moms are right, when NEITHER SIDE IS ADDRESSING THE ISSUE. While both groups of racist assholes are arguing their petty point, lives are being lost. The question, Nutghost, should be why arent YOU any ANGRIER THAN YOU ARE about it?

MFB>Yes, weve all seen how Nutghost and Irrational portray urban minorities on this and other threads.

Nutghost>Perhaps you need to improve your reading skills also... you also might try growing up and stopping the Grade school ploy of name calling... you'll garner more respect that way.

My reading skills are excellent, when compared to yours. For example, I dont bypass questions asked of me, as you seem to do with every post. My writing skills are apparently years beyond yours, also. You also might try growing up and stopping the loser argumentation tactics youve been using, as YOULL garner more respect that way. You could also answer direct questions that are put to you, which would definitely help you get a little respect, as well. BTW, I dont really care if you respect me or not, as long as you see my points. The lives of inner-city minorities are whats at issue here, not whether or not you like me. Please try to keep your mind on the topic, Nutghost.

MFB>I dont know what can be done in that area either, so I have focused my efforts on preventing crime (with a well-organized neighborhood watch), community outreach efforts (cleaning up, maintaining and operating parks and a community center) and rapidly responding to crisis situations. We have also pressured our local police into providing community-based officers (beat cops) in our area. We are actively encouraging police officers to move into our area, and plan to offer any officers who will do so a partial rent reimbursement at some point in the future, pending legal review. 

Nutghost>Glad you are trying to do something about the problem other than just giving it lip service on the net.

Yes, especially since you claimed I was doing nothing, and never bothered to go back and read previous posts where I said essentially the same thing as this. Fuck you, Nutghost.

Nutghost> try this for a thought, I'm not saying it's the solution for all of the problems, but it might be a start. Reign in the schools and Family services that teach our children that they can have their parents thrown in jail if they raise a hand to them. I'm not some kind of religious nut, but the Bible does have some good advice, if taken in moderation.

So, is your advice is to suppress schools and state support, and give churches total responsibility for the problem? I hope not, because I am totally opposed to that idea. Churches didnt do anything in my area until they saw community groups (like my own) working and succeeding. Further, churches are immune to any sort of state, county or local oversight. I dont want one cent of my taxes to go to a church to provide civic services.

Nutghost>... the one quote that comes to mind is "spare the rod, spoil the child"... I'm not advocating child abuse, but sometimes "time out" doesn't work (it didn't with me, but a switch did :-) and the would be against the law in most states today... time to change the laws.

Perhaps thats a long-term tool to use, but it doesnt help matters today. Your solutions do need to approach the future of the problem, but they also need to approach the CURRENT problem. Please consider that.

Nutghost>Another thing that I know I'll draw fire from, but might also be a help in the violence area is...... Make drugs legal... this would end the incentive for Drug gangs and stop most of the crime in the inner-cities, and as far as that goes, in the rural areas where I live.

I have thought about this, because I think there is something to that argument, but after seeing the damage that drugs to to human lives, Im not sure I can support your argument. Plus, while decriminalizing drugs would reduce drug-related crime (duh!), I dont think it would have much effect on burglaries, robberies, rapes and carjackings.

MFB, no matter how much you'd like to portray me as a racist, I'm not.

I think you ARE a racist and just dont know it. The way you discussed urban minorities in your earlier posts makes me relatively sure you are. If youre not a racist, then youre an arrogant, ignorant asshole. Pick one, Nutghost. Or try apologizing.

Where I live we have a huge Mexican population and Native American Pop (BTW... they hate that term and are proud of their heritage)... we also have a large population of S.E.Asians and we are getting a small scattering of Negroes (is that PC?)... we all seem to get along, and I know I'll get some grief for this statement, but, my list of friends pretty much reflects the demographics of this area.

Where you live and who your neighbors are has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you are a racist.

I live next to a car dealership. Does that make me a Chevy? Does that mean I automatically like Chevies? I dont think so.

And Deb said this.

Yes, I did leave working for EEO because I couldn't stand working with lying bigots downtown. I had/still have a lot of anger and resentment towards them. However, not everyone is like them, as my new co-workers have shown me.

Lying, no. With a little help from new friends, I'm able to see a little past the anger. It's not a perfect answer, Ra, but it's the best I've got right now. I'd rather have compassion in my life than a lot of anger.

Excellent. A strong and brave step for Deb.

Cletus added this.

Translation: Some of my best neighbors are colored people. They keep their yards real clean. We joke around all the time, I call them niggers and spics and they call me massa. We have us a real good time, so long as they don't look at my wife or daughter or git too close to Geetch, my old smell hound.

This is hilarious, Cletus. Are you one of Nutghosts neighbors? Or perhaps one of Irrational's?

And Deb came back and added all this.

MFB, a couple of points I wanted to touch on here:

1. Church influence: This is not saying that we should dump the matter on the churches' laps and throw personal responsibility out the window - far from it. However, according to M and S, the church would be a good place to start, giving those who can't stand alone to have a place to "stand together", strength in numbers, so to speak. It gives them a group of like-minded people to speak to, to try to help start making changes. As to how to get the churches working together, I don't really know. If they're really dedicated to community service, then they'll see the need and get to work. Perhaps they already are, but I'm just not aware of it.

Maybe youre not aware of it, Deb, but youre coming off as prejudiced against non-churchgoing folks. When you say that churches are a group of like-minded people, you appear to be suggesting that people who arent church-going wouldnt be interested in working on civic issues of this sort. I hope that I am misreading you. Please try to clarify this for me.

MFB>2. Yes, weve all seen how Nutghost and Irrational portray urban minorities on this and other threads.

Deb>To tell the truth, I've made some mistakes myself. There are some kids though who are so very violent - like you admitted, the violence in the schools is incredible. From standing outside the issue, it's very easy to "paint" all of the kids with the same brush. It may not be right, but it's easy to do. (Both my brother and my cousin were once stopped and frisked by the police, while they were cutting firewood, because the had long hair, dressed sorta ragged, and the cars were in rough shape.) 

It is very honorable of you to recognize and admit that youve made such mistakes.

Also consider, that some minorities WANT to think of themselves that way. Both M and S have stated that gang members are always glorifying themselves as being violent, as "violence brings power" as an ideal. Remember Being a smart, educated, hard-working Black person, S has been called an "Oreo" (Black on the outside, White inside) or asked "Why do you want to be a Whiteman?."?

Some does not equal all. Please keep that in mind. Racists like Irrational make the leap from some urban minorities to all urban minorities in the same way.

Some of the Black community can't imagine minorities as being hardworking, smart and educated. M and S laid the blame as partially from preconceptions, but mainly from the lack of good family relations, for a lack of good role models in their society.

Returning to my original discussion points, one can be a good role model and still get shot dead because some idiot with a gun made a shitty decision. It is not enough merely to be a good role model. Good role models are not bulletproof.

The finger can't always be pointed outside, MFB, it has to be pointed inward too.

Oh, okay. Now its YOUR turn, Deb. SHOW ME where I have pointed a finger of blame anywhere. SHOW ME who I have blamed for urban violence. SHOW ME who or what on the outside is being pointed at by me.

Personal responsibility, IMO, is the only way that real, long lasting, change will ever be accomplished.

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is not something that can be legally enforced under our present social system. And I think you know that.

Outside racism is part of the issue, which must be addressed, but, IMO, concentrating on ONLY that issue is side-stepping the real problem, that of taking personal responsibility for those around them and starting to make changes.

And who is concentrating only on that issue? This topic originally started out as a discussion of the Million Mom March For Bullshit. I have pointed out in many posts that both the March For Bullshit and the NRA are racist organizations. I have not called on either to do a damn thing. So where does that leave your argument now?

Your actions, such as community outreach and rapid crises response, are excellent examples of what needs to be done in many (minority and non-minority) communities to help stabilize them. Pulling together as a community will get more done than solely relying upon outside intervention, IMO.

Good. Glad you agree.

Deb>3. "S said that the barrage of violent "Gangsta" rap hasn't helped to stem the tide of violence or the breakdown of the family.

MFB>Gangsta rap isn't a cause of violence, nor is it a solution, and neither should it be either one. It is only a symptom. Pointing the finger at music is a quick way to lose what little respect you can earn from gangbangers. And let's not forget that Mrs. Gore founded the PMRC back in the mid-80s to launch attacks on what she felt were inappropriate songs and bands. Yet inappropriate music does not lead to violence any more than inappropriate clothes at the mall lead to overdrawn checking accounts.

Deb>Here, I have to disagree with you, MFB. Personally, the PMRC is toothless - some of the songs out there are really hideous, IMO.

I didnt say that the PMRC has or ever had any power. I cited them as an example of an organization that picks out something to blame for no good reason. As I said, inappropriate music does not lead to violence any more than inappropriate clothes at the mall lead to overdrawn checking accounts.

Both M and S have said, repeatedly, that the lyrics desensitize kids to violence and that the gangers portrayed, are "heroic".

And how are M and S qualified to make such a statement? Are they, perhaps, social workers or clinical psychiatrists? Being a minority is not sufficient grounds to make such a statement. Citing some studies might help you make your point.

Sooner or later, if violent behavior is being portrayed as being acceptable, then these kids will act upon it.

I disagree. Show me some evidence. Saying something like everybody knows that violent songs make people violent is not evidence.

Visual role models are very important, especially to those without a good home life - somehow I doubt that gangsta rap is going to be a positive influence on those kids.

I didnt say it was a positive influence. I said it was a symptom of the problem. Attacking gangsta rap in an effort to solve urban violence is like putting an ice pack on a feverish childs head. The fever might be cooled, but the child could sicken and die if you dont take further action.

To me, it seems to reinforce the negative stereotypes of minorities - that they *can't* be smart, educated or hardworking - that the MUST be violent, lazy, and resentful. IMO, it's very sad to see that self- pride is being modeled on such destructive behavior.

I see nothing wrong with this part of your statement.

I really don't understand your opinion on this matter - to me the cause/effect is readily appearant.

Its not apparent to me. And its not apparent to sociologists, either.

4. As for gun control, it depends on what measures you're advocating for. Whatever laws that would be applied, might (or might not) actually help the communities in question.

They would have to be narrow in scope, and be as unobtrusive as possible. I think that states, counties and towns will have to take this on themselves, as federal firearms legislation is too contentious a matter to be worth the trouble.

As much as many pro-gun individuals hate the idea, I think firearm registration is called for in some states and locales. Yes, I know that will raise a hue and cry, but the fact of the matter is that only the FEDERAL government is restricted in that matter by the Second Amendment. States, counties and cities are not bound by it, as I understand the matter.

I would like to see my county or my city require registration of all firearms in its jurisdiction. I would also like to see a law that would allow police to impound unregistered weapons in my county or city. If you just moved in, fine. Go get the weapons registered, follow the standard procedure, get a background check, and you get your weapons back. If you dont want to get them registered, fine. You dont get them back. If you fail the background check, then you can either forfeit the weapons or go before a judge and explain your situation.

I would like to see a law passed whereby my city or county would increase the minimum sentence length for crimes committed with unlicensed or unregistered weapons. Further, I would like to see violent felons lose their right to purchase, own or possess firearms for double the length of their sentences. Heres an example. Joe the convenience-store robber gets ten years for armed robbery. Joe gets out in five years. Joe should not be allowed to own a firearm for the entire ten year period (ending when his original sentence would have), PLUS another ten years. Maybe Joe cleaned his act up in prison, and thats why he got out in five years. But I see this additional period as part of the debt to society that Joe owes. Yes, it would be regrettable for Joe to lose his right to own a firearm. But Joe, having abused that right, should lose it for a time.

I would also like to see a law that would strip a violent felon of their right to own a firearm for some lengthy period (say, 20 years) if they used an insanity plea. In other words, if you admit mental illness in a court of law, you would have to accept the suspension of your firearm rights for some period. After all, if you freely admit in court that you committed a violent felony because you were temporarily insane, then shouldn't society protect its members by taking firearms away from you for a while?

I am not suggesting that people who are seeing a psychiatrist should be barred from having firearms, but I am suggesting that violent felons who BLAME mental illness for their violent acts (rightly or wrongly) should have their right to own firearms stripped from them. Just send the sheriff over to their houses after the judge bangs the gavel. Have them pick up the convict's firearms and lock them up, too.

What I think is pretty certain though is that it'll be a hard sell to others who don't see the need for that action, in their community.

Thats why I think that these laws should be aimed at specific states, counties or cities that have need of them. One size does not fit all. Your city or county may not have the same problems my city and county do. So why should residents of your area suffer with the draconian restrictions that I'm calling for in my area? Do you see?

I know, even though people are suffering, that I'd be pretty resentful of gov't influencing more of my own actions. M made one statement about how she thought the gov't needed to have more harsh laws, maybe even start taking away freedoms.

Hmm. Show her my ideas. See if they spark any interest. It sounds as if we are of the same mind there.

That statement really made me cringe, becuase even though it might stop *some* of the violence, in the long- term, IMO, it'd only build resentment and let the violence fester.

Not if narrowly targeted, I think. When cancer patients get radiation therapy, they dont douse the whole body with radiation. They aim it at the specific sites where they want to stop the cancer. We should use the same approach with firearms. Dont blanket the whole country with one set of oppressive laws; target the harsh laws at the jurisdictions where they are most needed. Allow law-abiding citizens a way to legally possess registered firearms (even if they have to jump through a few more hoops), and drop the hammer on violent criminals.

And prosecute ALL firearms violators EQUALLY. It is racist to call for the arrest and imprisonment of young urban black men (those who commit drive-bys and robberies) on one hand while simultaneously praising people like Randy Weaver on the other. If youre against black or brown downtown people who own unregistered firearms, then you need to be against white country people who own unregistered firearms. If youre not against both, then youre a racist.

People have to *want* to change, not be forced into "making the motions". Prohibition is an example of that mistake... 

Thats why Im not advocating prohibiting firearms. Limits, yes. Not removal. I am anti-gun, but I am also anti-blanket controls. Having BEEN a member of the NRA, I know all the arguments of that side.

Anyway, best wishes towards your efforts. I hope that we can all reach towards a better understanding of one another.

Thank you.

Nutghost>Hmmm... Cletus, your own tranlation defines you.

Thats funny, Nutghost, I thought it defined YOU.

Deb>MMM, I don't understand why there is so much hatred and name- calling. You don't owe anyone anything, but if you truly are wanting to help stomp out racism, then getting out the message, peaceably, is the only way to go.

You really need to read more closely, Deb. I observed that the March For Bullshit and the NRA are racist organizations, and cited evidence to support my point. So far, no one has effectively countered that. I have also explained what I have done in my community to address the problem of firearm violence. So where are you getting the idea that I am taking on racism as a whole?

Hatred and name-calling only cause others to ignore what you have to say, no matter if what you say is the truth or not.

Tell the racists like Frank, Irrational and Nutghost that. Tell racist organizations like the NRA that. There are far too many arrogant assholes like them out there who snippily dismiss the mere notion of racism and then get huffy when someone calls them on it.

Racism DOES exist. It does NOT always KNOW it exists. It is NOT always OVERT. And I do not owe politeness or patience to any racist. Sorry you dont agree.

BTW, this thread has been chugging along for nearly three months now. I wouldnt say Im being ignored.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to more discussion on minority self- perception and also about the impact of "Gangsta" Rap music on society (miornity and non-minority).

Ill give you something to chew on. Punk music does not lead to anarchy. Celine Dion songs do not lead to marriage. Frank Sinatra songs do not lead to membership in the Mafia. Instrumental jazz does not lead to illiteracy. And gangsta rap does not lead to urban violence. Gangsta rap is a SYMPTOM of urban violence, not a cause.

Claiming that gangsta rap leads to urban violence leads me to ask so why doesnt Dungeons and Dragons lead kids to hack people to death with swords? Art imitates life, not the other way around.

I dont LIKE gangsta rap, but I know enough to understand that Ice Cube, Public Enemy and the Geto Boyz arent to blame for every young urban minority male who tries to hold up a 7-11 or shake down a drunk for his wallet. Blaming music for the problem is intellectually dishonest, and it is intellectually lazy.

It seems mighty strange to me that youre all for people accepting personal responsibility, but then you also want to blame music. If we truly believe in personal responsibility, then shouldnt people be able to listen to whatever kind of music they want AND STILL be able to keep their guns to themselves? Does gangsta rap somehow magically prevent people from being responsible?

The only way to solve this issue is to band together, not force each other further apart.

If you can come up with a way to get the NRA to cart Eddie Eagles cracker ass into downtown Detroit, Oakland, Atlanta, Chicago or the Bronx, you be sure to let me know. I tried the banding together part already. I had a very, very rude awakening.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 07, 2000.

Mr. MFB, please excuse me if I refuse to believe anything you write. NOW, after all of the heated discourse the past few weeks, you inform us that you personally attempted to get the NRA (Eddie Eagle) to come into the inner cities and offer their programs. Sir, you are nothing but hot air! Prove it! Tell us whom you were working with at the NRA so we can send our letters of protest. Otherwise, take your hate filled mind elsewhere, we are busy with Al-d cant you see?

-- The (fact@fan.attic), July 07, 2000.

MFB,

I'm working on a response for you.

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 08, 2000.

Ok, here it goes, it's a little long, but I wanted to address as much as I could here...

MFB"Maybe youre not aware of it, Deb, but youre coming off as prejudiced against non-churchgoing folks. When you say that churches are a group of like-minded people, you appear to be suggesting that people who arent church-going wouldnt be interested in working on civic issues of this sort. I hope that I am misreading you. Please try to clarify this for me."

MFB - I'm not trying to be prejudiced against non-churchgoing people - it's just been my opinion that people who try to peaceably make change in the U.S. have usualy been raised religiously (not necessarily attending church though). I thought that a church might be an area where people would feel safe and have a strong foundation to build from. A bias on my part, probably, but I've never met another who didn't have any biases.

As for those who aren't church-going being civic-minded, sure they can be! I've just don't remember many groups making that much of an impact, not much is mentioned in the news about such progress...

DebThe finger can't always be pointed outside, MFB, it has to be pointed inward too.

MFB"Oh, okay. Now its YOUR turn, Deb. SHOW ME where I have pointed a finger of blame anywhere. SHOW ME who I have blamed for urban violence. SHOW ME who or what on the outside is being pointed at by me."

Here, MFB, my quote is being taken out of context. My original statement was intended to give my opinion about racial perceptions and the fact that some members of minority communities would rather discuss past racial injustices rather than try to make progress. (My time working at EOD is a personal experience of that, but I digress.) However, I will answer your question for you.

I believe that you pointed a finger of blame at Julie on May 15, 2000 in your first post on the subject. I do not agree with the MMM, however, I don't believe Julie ever intended the minority community any harm. Your post came across as attacking her personally on your *assumptions* of her actions, not facts. Here's one quote from your post: Where were you and the rest of the million moms when gangbangers started offing innocent kids in the inner cities? Was that not enough for you? Wasn't THAT gun violence enough reason for you to get involved? I guess THOSE kids weren't as important, or as deserving of life, as the well-scrubbed and well-fed middle-class white kids I saw marching on TV yesterday. The problem is, MFB, that even though you may be very right, the anger/frustration you show, turns people off. You are effectively hurting your cause instead of helping it. You may not owe niceness to anyone, but it should be a tool that you use to get the long-term goal done: to save lives.

As I've said before, I've talked not only with M or S, but with other people, from both sides of the issue, crossing over lines in racial issues (no matter how good the intentions) tend to be very poorly received - it's construed as an intrusion, it tends to cause more problems instead of solving the original one. I'm NOT saying that the NRA (or other folk) AREN'T racist, however there are other circumstances to consider as well. 1. Some of the NRA is racist, but not all members are. For instance, my family belongs to the NRA, however we're not all racists. 2. Some members don't want to get involved because of past rejection of other inter-racial projects. Even though I feel badly about the violence in the cities, I'm not likely to jump in to volunteer, because I've tried before, and my help was rejected BECAUSE I'M WHITE. It's happened before and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again - I'm also sure that it's happened to Blacks offering help to Whites too. Sure, there are some people out there that DON'T care, which is sickening, but there's no sense in jumping off the bat and assuming the worst-case scenario about someone. Perhaps you're justifyable frustrated and just venting but it's not helping win your case, about saving innocent lives.

It is very honorable of you to recognize and admit that youve made such mistakes.

Thank you. I can't change the past, but I can try to make myself better, to affect my future actions.

Some does not equal all. Please keep that in mind. Racists like Irrational make the leap from some urban minorities to all urban minorities in the same way.

Ok, understood. I'll try (not easy though) to keep from making assumptions based on a few people's actions. Sometimes I slip up and confuse the issue - it's not my intention to do others any harm.

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is not something that can be legally enforced under our present social system. And I think you know that.

Unfortunately, very true. Enforcement has to come from within one's self and/or peer pressure.

DebOutside racism is part of the issue, which must be addressed, but, IMO, concentrating on ONLY that issue is side-stepping the real problem, that of taking personal responsibility for those around them and starting to make changes. MFB"And who is concentrating only on that issue? This topic originally started out as a discussion of the Million Mom March For Bullshit. I have pointed out in many posts that both the March For Bullshit and the NRA are racist organizations. I have not called on either to do a damn thing. So where does that leave your argument now?"

MFB, *I'm* concentrating on it - *I'm* trying to look at the whole picture, not just concentrating on the NRA and/or the MMM. If one is to stop violence, it must consider many different factors, not just limiting access to guns. What I was trying to convey is that communities must get involved to try to improve the situation, not just sit back on their heels and talk about it (as you said earlier that the churches are doing). From my personal experience at EOD, some of the people there were content to *talk* about past injustices and spread hatred, but didn't do anything to change their communities, to help those most at risk. It might take better enforcement of the laws, more community awareness, and extension of involvement of surrounding "communities", better schools, and dismissing of prejudices. I don't see that happening yet.

As for the NRA and MMM being racist, sure some members probably are, but not all of them. The MMM may not know how to address the situation properly, but they were attempting to, in their own way. You read racism into their actions, but that's your opinion. As for the NRA, I do read more racism into their actions (for refusing to come to the schools) - I'd be interested in hearing more about that. Perhaps it's time for the NRA to recieve a letter campaign about (it sounds so mercenary, but if it saves lives and is the only way that they'll listen...) how it may be in their best interests to go to the Bronx, Detroit, etc... and teach instead of facing more restrictive gun laws in the future?

DebBoth M and S have said, repeatedly, that the lyrics desensitize kids to violence and that the gangers portrayed, are "heroic".

MFB"And how are M and S qualified to make such a statement? Are they, perhaps, social workers or clinical psychiatrists? Being a minority is not sufficient grounds to make such a statement. Citing some studies might help you make your point."

M told me of a neighbor's child that she watched "grow up". He went from a decent 7 year-old to a gangsta immitator. He started listening to the violent music, and with lack of guidance from his parents, went rapidly downhill from there - showing a total lack of respect for adults and peers and his schoolwork plummeted. I'm NOT saying that music should take all of the blame, but it's certainly NOT making the situation any easier to deal with. It's one more problem that the community has to try to counter, and unfortunately, it's hard to get across to the kids that the glitzy path isn't always the best for them. I don't have any studies to prove it, MFB, I only have very tragic lessons told to me by people who've seen the suffering.

As for "art imitating life", sure, but it becomes a self- fulfilling prophecy. Somewhere, the vicious circle HAS to be broken. I'm not blaming this problem entirely on the music industry, the problem is too diffuse for that, but the music is not helping to solve the issues either - they're there for the $$$, not to help.

If you've got studies showing that this violent music ISN'T doing these kids any harm, I'd really like to read it.

Gun Control:

MFB"Further, I would like to see violent felons lose their right to purchase, own or possess firearms for double the length of their sentences."

Agreed - I think that's an excellent suggestion.

MFB"I would also like to see a law that would strip a violent felon of their right to own a firearm for some lengthy period (say, 20 years) if they used an insanity plea. In other words, if you admit mental illness in a court of law, you would have to accept the suspension of your firearm rights for some period. After all, if you freely admit in court that you committed a violent felony because you were temporarily insane, then shouldn't society protect its members by taking firearms away from you for a while?"

MFB"I am not suggesting that people who are seeing a psychiatrist should be barred from having firearms, but I am suggesting that violent felons who BLAME mental illness for their violent acts (rightly or wrongly) should have their right to own firearms stripped from them. Just send the sheriff over to their houses after the judge bangs the gavel.

Again, agreed.

Deb What I think is pretty certain though is that it'll be a hard sell to others who don't see the need for that action, in their community. MFB "Thats why I think that these laws should be aimed at specific states, counties or cities that have need of them. One size does not fit all. Your city or county may not have the same problems my city and county do. So why should residents of your area suffer with the draconian restrictions that I'm calling for in my area? Do you see?"

Please see below.

Deb I know, even though people are suffering, that I'd be pretty resentful of gov't influencing more of my own actions. M made one statement about how she thought the gov't needed to have more harsh laws, maybe even start taking away freedoms. MFB "Hmm. Show her my ideas. See if they spark any interest. It sounds as if we are of the same mind there."

Not a problem.

Deb That statement really made me cringe, becuase even though it might stop *some* of the violence, in the long- term, IMO, it'd only build resentment and let the violence fester. MFB "Not if narrowly targeted, I think. When cancer patients get radiation therapy, they dont douse the whole body with radiation. They aim it at the specific sites where they want to stop the cancer. We should use the same approach with firearms. Dont blanket the whole country with one set of oppressive laws; target the harsh laws at the jurisdictions where they are most needed. Allow law-abiding citizens a way to legally possess registered firearms (even if they have to jump through a few more hoops), and drop the hammer on violent criminals."

In theory, that sounds like an excellent idea. However, I do have some concerns though: 1. What's to keep the offenders from moving one step ahead of the law, from one community to the next? 2. This idea of yours is based upon a free, benevolent-minded government. Power of this kind could be easily abused. What kinds of guns will be considered "legal" and who will determine that? (I believe that guns are to be kept for protecting one's family AND to prevent a repressive government from achieving total power.) 3. Who is to determine which communities need these kind of laws? The communities themselves, the local government or the feds? Will it increase or decrease favoritism and racism?

Ok, I hope that helps answers some questions and maybe sheds a little light on how I feel...

-- Deb M. (vmcclell@columbus.rr.com), July 09, 2000.

I'll let y'all discuss this gun stuff, but I agree completely with MFB on music, video games, etc.

Deb, in the example you cited, I think the key phrase there was lack of parental involvement. Gangsta rappers, IMO, are singing about life on the street, the injustices of the police, etc. It's folk music set to a new beat. Some of the words may be awful, but people didn't like the words to Louie, Louie either. In fact, it was banned in some places.

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 09, 2000.

Deb,

"M told me of a neighbor's child that she watched "grow up". He went from a decent 7 year-old to a gangsta immitator. He started listening to the violent music, and with lack of guidance from his parents, went rapidly downhill from there - showing a total lack of respect for adults and peers and his schoolwork plummeted. I'm NOT saying that music should take all of the blame, but it's certainly NOT making the situation any easier to deal with. It's one more problem that the community has to try to counter, and unfortunately, it's hard to get across to the kids that the glitzy path isn't always the best for them. I don't have any studies to prove it, MFB, I only have very tragic lessons told to me by people who've seen the suffering."

I have firsthand experience with the effects of violence-advocating RAP music on immature males and absolutely believe that it can be a major factor in affecting their personalities in very negative ways. An step-son has developed into an abusive, violent person (starting about age 13 with drugs) who frequently immerses himself in Gangsta Rap and then emerges several hours later to abuse his mother and sister, and me too when I get in the way. He is now over 18 and a danger to society, a future wife-abuser, and one who cares little about the women who he charms and then subsequently abuses. If I could, I'd execute every recording artist and executive who produces such audio garbage! Of course, all people aren't affected to the same degree, but being constantly bombarded with negativity and female-demeaning messages can't help but affect large numbers of immature people. Frankly I don't understand why the girls put up with it. If they didn't, the boys would eventually lose interest.

-- Observer (Observer@lots.to.observe), July 09, 2000.

For centuries certain chords and combinations of tones were avoided for fear that they would invite Satan. Music in a minor tone was considered especially dissonant, and for this reason many minor mode pieces of music through the Baroque era end with a major chord. Much of the music of Bach, known today for its beautiful complexities, was once considered as jarring as controversial as today's "gangsta" rap.

When Stravinsky's "The Rites of Spring" was first performed in Paris at the turn of the twentieth century, it caused riots in the theater. In fact, the patrons tore the place apart and set the stage on fire, and terrorized the dancers. It was ten years before it was performed again for fear that the music itself caused violence.

Mozart's "Cossi Fan Tutti" was banned for several years after its initial run for fear that it would cause divorce. After all, the opera is a wry comment on female fidelity (or lack thereof).

During the late 19th century and up through the 20's, the music of Beethoven was banned from American high schools and colleges. It was feared that his music, particularly the 5th and 9th symphonies, would have stirred the passions of young Americans. Ironically, this reason was also used to limit access to jazz, ragtime, rythym and blues and rock and roll.

Of course, It seems ridiculous now to think of, say, Karl Orf's "Carmina Burana" as causing young people to drink excessively and have sex. Some day, it will seem ridiculous to worry about Slim Shady or Dr. Dre. Music is art, and like all art, it arises from strong feelings. While those feelings may make you uncomfortable, the only way to change them is to change the situation which causes them, not to limit their expression.

-- Citizen Ruth (ruth_parker@yahoo.com), July 09, 2000.

Fanassic>Mr. MFB, please excuse me if I refuse to believe anything you write. NOW, after all of the heated discourse the past few weeks, you inform us that you personally attempted to get the NRA (Eddie Eagle) to come into the inner cities and offer their programs. Sir, you are nothing but hot air!

Ah, go fuck yourself, you arrogant reactionary racist sack of SHIT. Youre just pissed off that I happen to KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT when I say that the NRA is a racist organization. If you had gone back and READ MY POSTS, you would have seen the information youre whining about SEVERAL WEEKS AGO. Lazy idiot. Dont blame me if youre too fucking lazy to do your own homework.

I made my views plain. None of you bothered to counter them with any effectiveness. Why bother playing my ace  the fact that I KNEW whereof I spoke (because I had been a member)  when the rest of you didnt have a damn thing in your hands? I bet I play poker better than you too, loser. Be sure to let me know if you ever plan to go to Vegas, because Ill make a point of joining you there. I want to be sitting RIGHT NEXT TO YOU at the tables.

Fanassic>Prove it! Tell us whom you were working with at the NRA so we can send our letters of protest.

Ive got a better idea, Fanatic. You write your letters of protest. You tell the NRA that you WANT them to use their BEST PEOPLE to come downtown and offer firearms training and RTBAV clinics in the most dangerous inner cities in the US. Tell them that you want them to target the areas that need it the most. Tell them to take Chucky Chickenhawk down to schools in Oakland, Atlanta, Detroit, the Bronx and Brooklyn. If you do that, I will personally write both my Federal and state senators and representatives and ask them to vote IN FAVOR of the next NRA-sponsored piece of legislation that comes before them.

Sound good? Put your pen where your mouth is, BITCH.

BTW, did you bother to make those phone calls I asked you about? I didnt think so. Ill just make them MYSELF.

Fanassic>Otherwise, take your hate filled mind elsewhere, we are busy with Al-d cant you see?

Disagreement does not imply hatred. Argument does not imply violence. Free speech is nothing to be feared. Maybe YOU automatically hate everyone you disagree with, but dont make the mistake of thinking that everyone else does. Come join the rest of us in the year 2000, moron.

Deb>Ok, here it goes, it's a little long, but I wanted to address as much as I could here...

MFB"Maybe youre not aware of it, Deb, but youre coming off as prejudiced against non-churchgoing folks. When you say that churches are a group of like-minded people, you appear to be suggesting that people who arent church-going wouldnt be interested in working on civic issues of this sort. I hope that I am misreading you. Please try to clarify this for me."

Deb>MFB - I'm not trying to be prejudiced against non-churchgoing people - it's just been my opinion that people who try to peaceably make change in the U.S. have usualy been raised religiously (not necessarily attending church though). I thought that a church might be an area where people would feel safe and have a strong foundation to build from. A bias on my part, probably, but I've never met another who didn't have any biases.

No, I agree that everyone has biases. I just think you need to keep yours in mind. When you advocate churches taking the lead, you will make many people very uncomfortable. Me, for example. I dont think much of your suggestion, because in my experience, church congregations arent very interested in getting their hands dirty with this sort of thing. I am very aware that there are good people in many congregations, but my experience has been that, as a whole, congregations just arent interested in helping out here. In any event, churches will not be a long-term solution, IMO.

Besides, maybe the reason you have such positive opinions of church- going people is because you know and deal with many of them. Is that, perhaps the case? Do you know and associate with very many non- churchgoing folk?

Deb>As for those who aren't church-going being civic-minded, sure they can be! I've just don't remember many groups making that much of an impact, not much is mentioned in the news about such progress...

And the flip side of that is that I dont see many churches making much of a dent in this particular area, either. So where does that leave us? If neither of us see civic groups OR churches doing much of this, then why not simply go with whoever will step up to the plate?

DebThe finger can't always be pointed outside, MFB, it has to be pointed inward too.

MFB"Oh, okay. Now its YOUR turn, Deb. SHOW ME where I have pointed a finger of blame anywhere. SHOW ME who I have blamed for urban violence. SHOW ME who or what on the outside is being pointed at by me."

Deb>Here, MFB, my quote is being taken out of context. My original statement was intended to give my opinion about racial perceptions and the fact that some members of minority communities would rather discuss past racial injustices rather than try to make progress. (My time working at EOD is a personal experience of that, but I digress.) However, I will answer your question for you.

Deb>I believe that you pointed a finger of blame at Julie on May 15, 2000 in your first post on the subject.

You think I blamed Julie for gun violence? You are incorrect. My comments at Julie were aimed specifically at her support of the Million Misguided Mom March for Bullshit, another provably racist group. If you read closely, you will also notice that Julie never bothered to ask me what my views were on this issue. I gave her back what I got from her. As I said, I owe patience and politeness to no racist.

Deb>I do not agree with the MMM, however, I don't believe Julie ever intended the minority community any harm.

I never said she INTENDED harm, but as a churchgoing person like you might say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. She claimed to be helping something with which she had no experience whatsoever. Maybe I should go help the bomb squad defuse explosives. Ive got no experience in that, so by Julies logic, I should be a great help in that area. Perhaps if you need a brain tumor removed, you might call on me? I bet I could build some great skyscrapers, too.

Deb>Your post came across as attacking her personally on your *assumptions* of her actions, not facts. Here's one quote from your post: Where were you and the rest of the million moms when gangbangers started offing innocent kids in the inner cities? Was that not enough for you? Wasn't THAT gun violence enough reason for you to get involved? I guess THOSE kids weren't as important, or as deserving of life, as the well-scrubbed and well-fed middle-class white kids I saw marching on TV yesterday.

Deb, the fact of the matter is that the MFB didnt happen until SUBURBAN gun violence started to RISE, but at the same time, URBAN VIOLENCE HAD BEEN GOING DOWN DURING THE SAME PERIOD. The fact of the matter is that urban gun violence was ACCEPTABLE to the members of the Million Misguided Moms until the blood of white kids was being spilled. The March For Bullshit is just as provably wrong, and springs from the same incorrect assumptions as those laughable Take Back the Night rallies on college campuses in the mid-80s. The Million Misguided Moms spout demonstrably WRONG statistics about gun violence, just as the Take Back the Nighters spouted demonstrably incorrect statistics about sexual assaults on college campuses. One- quarter of all female college graduates have been raped while in school? PFFFFFFFFT. Gun violence is at its highest level ever, and continues to rise? BULLSHIT. Anyone who predicates their participation on such egregiously WRONG assertions needs a fire lit under their ass. Too bad if you dont like it. And if she supports that kind of horrific racism, then yes, Im going to come down on her hard. And if you read closely, youll see that she made a lot more assumptions than I did. So fuck her.

The problem is, MFB, that even though you may be very right, the anger/frustration you show, turns people off.

I dont care. Id bet that Im doing more in my community about gun violence than anyone else on this board is doing in theirs, so I dont really care how people here think I come across. Talk to me politely and ask me questions, and youll get that in return. Be a racist jackass, and Ill flame you out.

You are effectively hurting your cause instead of helping it. You may not owe niceness to anyone, but it should be a tool that you use to get the long-term goal done: to save lives.

I have no illusions about getting anyone on this board to do a damn thing. If pictures of dead black and brown kids on the evening news and in the newspaper wont get racists and classists up off their asses to do something about the problem, then just exactly what effect do you think I would have on the issue by posting here, Deb?

Deb>As I've said before, I've talked not only with M or S, but with other people, from both sides of the issue, crossing over lines in racial issues (no matter how good the intentions) tend to be very poorly received - it's construed as an intrusion, it tends to cause more problems instead of solving the original one.

Thats a problem that minorities need to get over. If a white person comes to me, willing to listen and help, then I am willing to accept that help. If a white person comes to me and TELLS ME WHAT TO DO, then Im going to tell them to fuck off. Ask your associates how they would receive a SINGLE white person who showed up at their community center and ASKED WHERE they could help. Thats a great first step, and the best way to start building bridges of racial trust, in my opinion. One person at a time.

Deb>I'm NOT saying that the NRA (or other folk) AREN'T racist, however there are other circumstances to consider as well. 1. Some of the NRA is racist, but not all members are.

I said nothing about their individual members. I said the organization, as a whole, was provably racist.

Deb>For instance, my family belongs to the NRA, however we're not all racists. 2. Some members don't want to get involved because of past rejection of other inter-racial projects. Even though I feel badly about the violence in the cities, I'm not likely to jump in to volunteer, because I've tried before, and my help was rejected BECAUSE I'M WHITE. It's happened before and I wouldn't be surprised if it happens again - I'm also sure that it's happened to Blacks offering help to Whites too. Sure, there are some people out there that DON'T care, which is sickening, but there's no sense in jumping off the bat and assuming the worst-case scenario about someone. Perhaps you're justifyable frustrated and just venting but it's not helping win your case, about saving innocent lives.

So who on this board do you think would help me? No one, thats who. It makes no difference whether I am polite or not.

Im sorry you were rejected because of your race. It DOES hurt, doesnt it? You will sometimes see helpful white people made targets in minority communities just because some asshole minority individuals want some payback. Theyre no more representative of their race than Klansmen are representative of their race. Assholes can be ANY color.

MFB>Some does not equal all. Please keep that in mind. Racists like Irrational make the leap from some urban minorities to all urban minorities in the same way.

Deb>Ok, understood. I'll try (not easy though) to keep from making assumptions based on a few people's actions. Sometimes I slip up and confuse the issue - it's not my intention to do others any harm.

As do most other human beings. I believe you are making an honest effort at discourse, and so I am restraining my typically incendiary posting manner.

MFB>Unfortunately, personal responsibility is not something that can be legally enforced under our present social system. And I think you know that.

Deb>Unfortunately, very true. Enforcement has to come from within one's self and/or peer pressure.

DebOutside racism is part of the issue, which must be addressed, but, IMO, concentrating on ONLY that issue is side-stepping the real problem, that of taking personal responsibility for those around them and starting to make changes.

MFB"And who is concentrating only on that issue? This topic originally started out as a discussion of the Million Mom March For Bullshit. I have pointed out in many posts that both the March For Bullshit and the NRA are racist organizations. I have not called on either to do a damn thing. So where does that leave your argument now?"

Deb>MFB, *I'm* concentrating on it - *I'm* trying to look at the whole picture, not just concentrating on the NRA and/or the MMM.

Well, Im not. At least not on this thread. If youre going to go farther afield, then please recognize that I may not choose to go there with you.

Deb>If one is to stop violence, it must consider many different factors, not just limiting access to guns.

True. But thats not what I was talking about when this thread started.

Deb>What I was trying to convey is that communities must get involved to try to improve the situation, not just sit back on their heels and talk about it (as you said earlier that the churches are doing).

In my experience, yes. Thats exactly what the churches are doing. In my experience, most church-going types click their tongues and go aint that a shame. I think it is better to start with people who are interested in addressing the problem and THEN coming up with a plan of action, rather than taking a church full of people WHO MAY NOT ALL WANT TO PARTICIPATE and try to convince them all to sign on. Do that, and I think you risk failing, plus youre likely to lose members of your congregation.

Think about this, Deb. A congregation is a square peg that may not automatically fit in the round hole of addressing firearm violence.

Deb>From my personal experience at EOD, some of the people there were content to *talk* about past injustices and spread hatred, but didn't do anything to change their communities, to help those most at risk. It might take better enforcement of the laws, more community awareness, and extension of involvement of surrounding "communities", better schools, and dismissing of prejudices. I don't see that happening yet.

Well, protesting white-on-white gun violence wont do a whole hell of a lot, either.

Deb>As for the NRA and MMM being racist, sure some members probably are, but not all of them. The MMM may not know how to address the situation properly, but they were attempting to, in their own way.

No. They were NOT attempting to address the situation in their own way. They were attempting to save suburban lives; lives of middle- and upper-class lives. They were doing nothing for poor urban minority lives.

Deb>You read racism into their actions, but that's your opinion.

What would YOU call it? What would YOU call a solution that saves lives of one color, while ignoring the greater number of lives lost that happen to have DIFFERENT COLOR SKIN? WHAT EXACTLY IS THAT, DEB?

Deb>As for the NRA, I do read more racism into their actions (for refusing to come to the schools) - I'd be interested in hearing more about that. Perhaps it's time for the NRA to recieve a letter campaign about (it sounds so mercenary, but if it saves lives and is the only way that they'll listen...) how it may be in their best interests to go to the Bronx, Detroit, etc... and teach instead of facing more restrictive gun laws in the future?

This is what I have been saying. The NRA has been picking up some extra membership in the last two or three months, but that happens every election year. The sad fact is that the NRA has been steadily LOSING membership over the last two years. Remember the jack-booted government thugs mailing from them a couple of years ago? Remember that former President Bush quit them then? Thats when I quit them, too.

The NRA could really score a public relations home run AND increase their membership AND help to reduce urban gun violence ALL AT THE SAME TIME simply by going down into the inner cities to bring their programs to the people who need them most. Since they dont, I can only assume that one or more of the following is true:

1) Their programs really dont work, and they know it (I personally dont think this is the case)

2) They are afraid that their programs dont really work like they claim they do, and they dont want to find out (I dont think this is the case, either)

3) They would rather keep their home-field advantage (i.e. rural and white areas) whenever possible.

4) They really are a racist organization and dont want to help urban minorities

5) They really are a racist organization and would rather see urban minorities kill each other off.

Simply put, Deb, theres NO GOOD REASON for the NRA NOT to go downtown.

DebBoth M and S have said, repeatedly, that the lyrics desensitize kids to violence and that the gangers portrayed, are "heroic".

MFB"And how are M and S qualified to make such a statement? Are they, perhaps, social workers or clinical psychiatrists? Being a minority is not sufficient grounds to make such a statement. Citing some studies might help you make your point."

Deb>M told me of a neighbor's child that she watched "grow up". He went from a decent 7 year-old to a gangsta immitator. He started listening to the violent music, and with lack of guidance from his parents, went rapidly downhill from there - showing a total lack of respect for adults and peers and his schoolwork plummeted.

So there was NO OTHER possible explanation? You said yourself that the kid had no guidance from his parents; why couldnt THAT be the explanation? How do you know the kid didnt fall in with a bad crowd? How do you know the kid didnt have negative peer pressure at school? Your anecdotal example is full of holes.

Deb>I'm NOT saying that music should take all of the blame, but it's certainly NOT making the situation any easier to deal with.

You muddy the issue unnecessarily. Failure to be a positive force does not automatically make gangsta rap a negative force. Chef Boy- ar-dee canned ravioli is not a positive force in the hood, so isnt it then a negative force, Deb?

Deb>It's one more problem that the community has to try to counter, and unfortunately, it's hard to get across to the kids that the glitzy path isn't always the best for them. I don't have any studies to prove it, MFB, I only have very tragic lessons told to me by people who've seen the suffering.

No studies, no proof, no evidence. Saying everybody knows its true, or something like it, doesnt make your point.

Deb>As for "art imitating life", sure, but it becomes a self- fulfilling prophecy.

How so? I think you are drawing unwarranted conclusions here. I think you are stating your beliefs as facts, but citing no evidence to support them.

Deb>Somewhere, the vicious circle HAS to be broken.

What circle is THAT?

Deb>I'm not blaming this problem entirely on the music industry, the problem is too diffuse for that, but the music is not helping to solve the issues either - they're there for the $$$, not to help.

Failure to be a positive force does not automatically make gangsta rap a negative force.

Deb>If you've got studies showing that this violent music ISN'T doing these kids any harm, I'd really like to read it.

So youre asking me to prove a negative. Pfffffft. Take yourself back to Logic 101 and see whats in your textbook. If YOU make an assertion of cause and effect, then YOU bear the burden of proof. I could claim that elves live in my sock drawer, and why dont YOU PROVE THEY DONT? Do you see, Deb?

Deb>Gun Control:

Deb>That statement really made me cringe, becuase even though it might stop *some* of the violence, in the long- term, IMO, it'd only build resentment and let the violence fester.

MFB>"Not if narrowly targeted, I think. When cancer patients get radiation therapy, they dont douse the whole body with radiation. They aim it at the specific sites where they want to stop the cancer. We should use the same approach with firearms. Dont blanket the whole country with one set of oppressive laws; target the harsh laws at the jurisdictions where they are most needed. Allow law-abiding citizens a way to legally possess registered firearms (even if they have to jump through a few more hoops), and drop the hammer on violent criminals."

Deb>In theory, that sounds like an excellent idea. However, I do have some concerns though: 1. What's to keep the offenders from moving one step ahead of the law, from one community to the next?

Well, nothing, of course. You didnt expect that we could just legislate crime out of existence, did you? Criminals will always be with us. We have to combat the problems as best we can.

Deb>2. This idea of yours is based upon a free, benevolent-minded government. Power of this kind could be easily abused.

Ah, this is why I recommend CITIES and COUNTIES passing this sort of legislation THEMSELVES. Not Federal legislation, but local. I could even see placing time limits on these laws, so that they expire by themselves at some predefined point in the future. Perhaps a city or county would even choose to place these sorts of laws on the ballot as a public referendum. That would be a way of giving power BACK to the people at a local level, and helping them address their own problems. Certainly local dialogue is needed before a jurisdiction tries to put these sorts of laws into effect.

Deb>What kinds of guns will be considered "legal" and who will determine that?

It would depend on what the city or county decided on. The city or county government would determine that, perhaps even in a public referendum as I suggested above.

Deb>(I believe that guns are to be kept for protecting one's family AND to prevent a repressive government from achieving total power.)

Somehow, I dont think we have to worry about a resurgence of Tammany Hall-style political machines any longer. And Im relatively sure we are not in danger of a totalitarian takeover of Davenport, Iowa.

Deb>3. Who is to determine which communities need these kind of laws? The communities themselves, the local government or the feds? The first two entities. NOT the last one.

Deb>Will it increase or decrease favoritism and racism?

I cant say. But if community members have a say in passing laws to protect themselves, I think it is a step in the right direction.

Observer>I have firsthand experience with the effects of violence- advocating RAP music on immature males and absolutely believe that it can be a major factor in affecting their personalities in very negative ways.

I appreciate your participation, Observer, but anecdotal evidence proves nothing. We have no way of knowing, for example, whether or not the young man suffers from some sort of behavioral or psychological problem. Appearances can be deceiving. Just because rap music is present does not mean that it is the cause. Based on cursory observations, we could just as quickly conclude that the culprit is the brand of toothpaste the kid uses.

Observer>He is now over 18 and a danger to society, a future wife- abuser, and one who cares little about the women who he charms and then subsequently abuses. If I could, I'd execute every recording artist and executive who produces such audio garbage!

Well, you know best, dont you? You couldnt POSSIBLY be wrong, could you?

Observer>Of course, all people aren't affected to the same degree, but being constantly bombarded with negativity and female-demeaning messages can't help but affect large numbers of immature people.

Your argument essentially says everybody KNOWS gangsta rap causes violence.

Well, if everybody KNOWS it, then you shouldnt have any problem citing studies or hard evidence to prove the point, should you?

Observer>Frankly I don't understand why the girls put up with it. If they didn't, the boys would eventually lose interest.

Good point. I DO agree with that.

Ruth>For centuries certain chords and combinations of tones were avoided for fear that they would invite Satan. Music in a minor tone was considered especially dissonant, and for this reason many minor mode pieces of music through the Baroque era end with a major chord. Much of the music of Bach, known today for its beautiful complexities, was once considered as jarring as controversial as today's "gangsta" rap.

Im not suggesting that the Geto Boyz repertoire will one day be performed at the Metropolitan Opera, but Ruths point is well taken.

People have been afraid of certain sorts of music throughout history. That doesnt mean that the fearful people are right.

Ruth>When Stravinsky's "The Rites of Spring" was first performed in Paris at the turn of the twentieth century, it caused riots in the theater. In fact, the patrons tore the place apart and set the stage on fire, and terrorized the dancers. It was ten years before it was performed again for fear that the music itself caused violence.

I was not aware of that. Thank you for that, Ruth. Can you refer me to your source? I would like to know more about that.

Ruth>Mozart's "Cossi Fan Tutti" was banned for several years after its initial run for fear that it would cause divorce. After all, the opera is a wry comment on female fidelity (or lack thereof). 

I did know about that. I thought it was a very interesting point.

Ruth>During the late 19th century and up through the 20's, the music of Beethoven was banned from American high schools and colleges. It was feared that his music, particularly the 5th and 9th symphonies, would have stirred the passions of young Americans. Ironically, this reason was also used to limit access to jazz, ragtime, rythym and blues and rock and roll.

I couldnt possibly live without jazz and R&B. Im so pleased that we now recognize that jazz doesnt lead to violence, drug and alcohol use and premarital sex. How could ANYONE say anything against James Browns I Feel Good or Papas Got a Brand New Bag? Ive seen black, brown AND white kids shaking their hips to both songs, and it has got to be a good thing.

Ruth>Of course, It seems ridiculous now to think of, say, Karl Orf's "Carmina Burana" as causing young people to drink excessively and have sex. Some day, it will seem ridiculous to worry about Slim Shady or Dr. Dre. Music is art, and like all art, it arises from strong feelings. While those feelings may make you uncomfortable, the only way to change them is to change the situation which causes them, not to limit their expression.

I think I like you, Ruth. I know I like the way you think.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 12, 2000.

Whenever you're ready, Deb.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 18, 2000.

"While those feelings may make you uncomfortable, the only way to change them is to change the situation which causes them, not to limit their expression.

I'd like to see us let the RAP punks keep killing each other off in the sprit of natural selection. If they decide to cross the line and start shooting us decent people, we can respond as necessary, unless of course we happen to live in a state that effectively disarms honest citizens.

-- Hacker II (HII@start.a.new.thread.please), July 22, 2000.

Slacker II squealed>>

"I'd like to see us let the RAP punks keep killing each other off in the sprit of natural selection."

Cool, then, baby. You DO realize that it's WHITE people who are shooting each other more and more, and COLORED people who are shooting each other less and less? I thought so. Right on, brother. Fight the power!

"If they decide to cross the line and start shooting us decent people,"

We can just read that as "us WHITE people." See, this is the kind of shit you cracker-ass bitches get up to when you start marrying your cousins. Don't let this guy get within a whole STATE of the Human Genome Project; he'll fuck up all their findings. But maybe he could find work as an extra in the "X-Men" sequel.

"we can respond as necessary, unless of course we happen to live in a state that effectively disarms honest citizens."

Honest citizens like Randy Weaver, right?

BIIIIIIIITCH.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 24, 2000.

What? NOTHING? You music-causes-violence folks got a nice big juicy piece of ammunition to use in your arguments against me last week, and none of you even BROUGHT IT UP?

Damn, y'all are slipping.

Try again.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), July 31, 2000.

What ammunition? I missed something?

Anyone remember when Beavis and Butthead was taken off the air? Some kid had put a firecracker up a cat's butt and said he'd seen that on Beavis and Butthead. Cin recently started a thread on fast-food "tainted" by the employees. Beavis and Butthead had an episode or two where they did that, too. But, gee, we cleansed our innocent youth of that influence when we took B&B off the air. Who's responsible NOW?

-- Anita (Anita_S3@hotmail.com), July 31, 2000.

The AMA published the results of a study indicating a possible link between violent media (music, TV, video games) and youth violence.

Yet no one bothered to run with it here. Seems to me that the people arguing against me don't bother trying very hard to assemble FACTS, PROOF and EVIDENCE. They just want to argue from their convictions. That's nice, but it's piss-weak.

Now that I have so generaously given my opponents some ammunition, let's see if they can actually do anything with it. I doubt it.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), August 03, 2000.

Maybe people are just starting to get bored with arguing with you CPR. More info on the AMA study might be interesting, tho. Since you and Citizen Ruth seem to have a lot in common, why not explore a more tangible and more permanent relationship?

-- Getting Bored (CPR@isabig.bore), August 05, 2000.

Bored Slackjaw>"Maybe people are just starting to get bored with arguing with you CPR."

If I were CPR, you might have a point. But I'm not CPR, don't know him and have never spoken to him, so it looks like the only point you have is the one on the top of your head.

Besides, nobody here has been ABLE to discuss or argue with me with ANY DEGREE of ability except for Deb, and she hasn't been around in a while. You could always try, Bored Slackjaw. Or maybe you're afraid of getting your ass kicked, too? Always safer to cower and run than it is to actually get ripped up online. But if you want to stick around, though, you could always be next in line, fool.

Bored Slackjaw>"More info on the AMA study might be interesting, tho."

Then go find it, lazy-ass sack of SHIT. I'm not arguing both sides for your entertainment. If you're too stupid, lazy or ignorant to go find it yourself, then fuck you.

"Since you and Citizen Ruth seem to have a lot in common, why not explore a more tangible and more permanent relationship?"

Don't know her. I don't think I'll pursue her, either, since my wife would have something to say about it. But since you and a female jackass (a jenny) seem to have a lot in common, why don't you climb up onto the back of one and see what develops? That ought to be good for a laugh.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), August 05, 2000.

MFB, why should anyone want to argue endlessly with you to no apparent positive purpose? Why don't you clean up your language and attitude and conduct adult-level discourse on the subject at hand. Why not start another thread to continue the discussion/debate? Then maybe you might attract some meaningful attention. If you really wish to raise people's consciousness about an issue and maybe do some good in the world, you certainly won't accomplish it by talking like CPR, Hawk, Ra and other like-minded Forum luminaries. You are obviously intelligent and knowledgeable, and it seems a waste to use it in childish argument when you might really accomplish something by being less confrontational.

-- Mr. B (not@always.bored), August 05, 2000.

"MFB, why should anyone want to argue endlessly with you to no apparent positive purpose?"

People argue with all sorts of other people endlessly on this site for no apparent positive purpose, Mr. B. So why should this thread be any different? If you don't like it, go talk to Phil Greenspun.

"Why don't you clean up your language and attitude and conduct adult- level discourse on the subject at hand."

Fuck you. I'll post how I please. This is ALREADY adult-level discourse. If you disagree, then show it to your CHILDREN. There are adult words and adult subject matter here, and NO ONE who can successfully defend EITHER the March For Bullshit OR the NRA.

"Why not start another thread to continue the discussion/debate?"

This is the SECOND THREAD on this topic. If YOU want another thread, there's nothing stopping YOU.

"Then maybe you might attract some meaningful attention."

What fucking MEANINGFUL ATTENTION do you expect to be drawn to this message board? GodDAMN, you're stupid.

"If you really wish to raise people's consciousness about an issue and maybe do some good in the world, you certainly won't accomplish it by talking like CPR, Hawk, Ra and other like-minded Forum luminaries."

Who said I was trying to raise people's CONSCIOUSNESS? Fuck your other people. Besides, I am ALREADY doing good in the world in this area. You obviously haven't read those posts. And I have ABSOLUTELY NO ILLUSIONS ABOUT ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING ON THIS BOARD.

"You are obviously intelligent and knowledgeable,"

Thank you. I appreciate that.

"and it seems a waste to use it in childish argument when you might really accomplish something by being less confrontational."

What do you think could be ACCOMPLISHED on this board? I TRIED IT THE POLITE WAY IN REAL LIFE. IT DOESN'T WORK. Taking matters into your OWN HANDS to fight gun violence works. At least it works when tried as I have indicated earlier on this board.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), August 11, 2000.

Well this thread is several months old now, won't even pretend to say I've read all..many good arguments I'm sure ,but please remember to vote come Nov for the candidate (s) that are most likely to uphold your right to possess a firearm

-- justa, (ponderin @s.leave the range), August 25, 2000.

That would be Harry Browne.

If any lurkers would like to listen to Harry, join us at the West Palm Beach meeting:

MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 4 ~ WEST PALM BEACH, FLORIDA

Sheraton West Palm Beach

630 Clearwater Park Road, West Palm Beach

Hotel Phone number (for directions only): 561-833-1234

6:30-7:30 ~ Reception with hors d'oeuvres & no-host bar

7:30-9:30 ~ Harry Browne "Libertarians Want You To Be Free"

Free of charge and open to the public

Invite a friend! Business attire requested. To make reservations or get more info, mailto:RSVP@HarryBrowne2000.org

-- Uncle Deedah (unkeed@yahoo.com), August 25, 2000.

I WILL probably be voting for Harry, but not because of his stance on firearms.

Probably won't be making it to Florida to hear him speak either. What a shame.

-- March For Bullshit (million.moms@are.wrong.org), August 28, 2000.