I would respectfuly request that you remove your web page. If you would have talked with lawerence dunmore vice chair of the occaneechi band of the saponi nation you would find out that his grand mothe was a hathcock.I have asked repetaly ask the tribe if I was saponi they have assured me that i had saponi blood. If you knew how to do Indian fgenology you would fin out that the saponi nation exested before 1740. That benjamins great grandfather lived amoung the saponi nation untill he was forced to accept the white mans ways.The indian removal acts forced many familys to hide thier identy due to the fear of removal.You might look at irvin andersons pictureon my home page he shure dosent look white. ron hathcock

-- ron hathcock (hathcock@visionet.org), June 16, 2000

Answers

Ron, Benjamin Hathcock is my ancestor in two different lines.

1st Benjamin Hathcock to Benjamin Franklin Hathcock and Nancy Burris to Calvin Hathcock and Mary Ann Hartsell to Priscilla Rosanna Hathcock and John E. Clark to Henry Lee Clark and Bessie J. Huneycutt to Barney Alexander Clark (my great-grandfather)

2nd Benjamin Hathcock to Jane Hathcock and John Whitley to George Whitley and Keziah Eudy to Henry Jackson Whitley and Margaret Ann Morton to Verona Whitley (my great-grandmother)

Leah lcsims@eskimo.com

-- Leah C. Sims (lcsims@eskimo.com), May 08, 2002.

How do you know that Benjamin's great-grandfather lived among the Saponi, and that Benjamin was an Indian passing as white?

-- thomas (tombrown@jhu.edu), June 17, 2000.

I have to admit that I would also like to know how Benjamin Hathcock's Indian heritage is certain. I descend from him.

-- Lydia Sides (lsides@ac.net), June 17, 2000.

Occaneechi Saponi and Tutelo of the Saponi Nation: aka Monacan and Piedmont Catawba; Includes The Eastern Band of the Cherokee and Lumbee Nation and Southeastern Indian Nation, etc.

(Excerpted from the Book, page 306)... Verbatim.

1782 - Some Occaneechi - Saponi in Montgomery County , North Carolina Tax List - 1782

Milly Coker Benjamin Hathcock Ann Jefferys Thomas Gower John Jordan John Mareskau John Gower James Jeffery Jeremiah Manesco

The Hathcock Family Baldwin County, Alabama

-- Sheila H. Nobles (nobles@gulftel.com), June 18, 2000.

I have copies of Richard L. and Vicki L. Haithcock's "Occaneechi Saponi and Tutelo of the Saponi Nation: aka Monacan and Piedmont Catawba ..." etc. volumes and am finding nothing regarding Benjamin Hathcock on page 306 of any of the three volumes.

I also have a copy of "Montgomery County, North Carolina Tax List 1782" by Helen L. Garner. It says nothing about Occaneechi Saponi Indians. It does list Benjamin Hathcock on page 5 as being taxed $1 as the owner of one "cattel".

If I am wrong I will beg your apology. Otherwise, I am still open to proof of Benjamin Hathcock's Indian connection.

-- Erin Allen (eirvin@hotmail.com), June 20, 2000.

Erin, Look in Vol. II, page 306 (use the numbering system at the top of the pages). The whole 3 volume set is very unorganized, to say the least. I spent some time figuring it out for myself...just another example of "looking" and "checking" behind other researchers. This does not mean the person "passing the info" is a LIAR or is passing along DUBIOUS info...this means that a person thought enough of other reasearchers to "just pass it along!!!" Also, one other note...at the beginning of each of the volumes in the talked about book set, it states that the 3 volume set is to be used for "reference purposes" and that the info was taken from the public domain.

-- Lisa Hathcock Thompson (Dbreez9913@aol.com), June 25, 2000.

Lisa,

You are correct. I checked on page 306 of Volume 2 (otherwise listed as page 84) of Richard and Vicki Haithcock's book "Occaneechi Saponi and Tutelo of the Saponi Nation." Benjamin Hathcock, among others, is listed as "Some Occaneechi-Saponi in Montgomery County, North Carolina Tax List - 1782." Thank you for enlightening!

The Haithcocks state that their book is meant to be used as a source book. Researchers are expected to validate the citations found in their book. When this citation is checked, it is found to be faulty. In addition to the transcription of the 1782 Montgomery County tax list, I have a photocopy of the original tax list in Raleigh, and there simply isn't anything about Benjamin Hathcock being an Occaneechi Saponi Indian. It does state that Benjamin Hathcock owned one "cattel" (probably a cow) and was assessed $1 in tax for this cow.

There is one racial or ethnic classification column in the tax list, and that #5. Negroes under 7 years & 50-60 years; Negroes of 7-16 years & 40-50 years; Negroes of 16-40 years. The #6 column is headed "Total No. of Negroes." There is no mention of Indians, colored persons, etc. Benjamin Hathcock is not listed as a Negro.

These are the facts of the 1782 tax list. My belief is that this listing is included in the Haithcock book because Hathcock and the other surnames listed are apparently known to be Occaneechi-Saponi surnames. But that is not to say that Benjamin Hathcock himself was an Occaneechi-Saponi.

I don't wish to anger anyone or question anyone's veracity. I work with genealogy and I know how difficult it is to ferret out the facts about people who lived a long time ago. But I do want to let people know that this particular source does not check out. Erin Allen

-- Erin Allen (eirvin@hotmail.com), June 26, 2000.

Non Indian Status:

Oklahoma Indians, especially full blood descendants, suffer today from earlier federal programs to enroll Indians in the Indian's own tribes and to allot to individual Indians their tribally owned domains. When the Dawes Commission rolls were drawn at the turn of the century, many traditionalist Indians like the Crazy Snake Creeks refused to enroll because they believed that the United States was violating its treaty promises. Many were enrolled against their will, but others escaped the roving enrollment parties. Thus Oklahoma's mixed blood Indians are often federally recognized, while many full bloods and their descendants are treated as non Indian. Other full bloods enrolled themselves as quarter bloods or eighth bloods so that they would not have restrictions on their lands and the need for guardians. As a result, in tribes such as the Choctaws, Cherokee's Creeks, Seminoles, Chickasaws, whose rolls have been closed by act of Congress, descendants of these enrollees are denied educational and other Indian benefits to which, by their correct blood quantum, they are entitled.

Ms. Simms talks about wanna be Indians and states the only reason that an Indian is not listed as an Indian is because they are white or black. The reasons stated above are why a very Indian family is not recorded in history as an Indian. Not because he was black, not because he is white and pretending to be Indian. The Indian gave up his life as he knew it to be Indian. Ms. Simms says all of this is a fallacy. She quotes history, she quotes Indians, she quotes educated genealogist yet she does not give us the sources of her quotes, or the names of the people, or authors of her quotes. She does not read the Indian poetry or the books written by Indian authors or even the books written about Indian by white man authors or she would not say the things that she says. She writes about my family yet she knows nothing of our family customs, our white ways, and our Indian ways.

The Creek Poet Alexander Posey wrote a poem "On the Capture and Imprisonment of Crazy Snake"

Down with him! chain him! bind him! fast! Slam to the iron door and turn the key! The one true Creek, perhaps the last To dare declare, "You have wronged me!" Defiant, stocial, silent,Suffers imprisonment!

Such coarse black hair! such eagle eye! Such stately mien! - how arrow straight! Such will! such courage to defy The powerful makes of his fate! A traitor, outlaw, what you will He is noble red man still.

Condemn him and his kind to shame! I bow to him, exalt his name!

Ms Simms, who knows everything about Indians and their ways did not know that being Indian could cost the Indian his freedom. Ms Simms states this is one of the myths. The words above were written by an Indian, an educated Indian. An Indian who was there at the time in history.

I want to be taught by the Indian in history not by a wanna be educator who teaches nothing but her own opinion on something as important as Indian heritage.

I hope anyone reading this finds it interesting. It was taken from a book called The Indians in Oklahoma by Rennard Strickland. The book is a short historical account of the Five Civilized Tribes and the other tribes that were federally forced to settle in present day Oklahoma.

By ach Copyright 2000

-- Nobles (nobles@gulftel.com), June 30, 2000.

Ms sims would you please tell me how you are related to benjamin. Mr von cannon only published our research to those who are intrested we did not mean to raise a comotin in the community. It was a take or a leave situation. thanks ron hathcock

-- ron hathcock (rjhath1950@netscape.net), May 08, 2002.