How's your debt load? Are you a credit card junkie? Do you get impatient with people who rack up debt by living beyond their means, and then go back and do the same thing all over again?

I guess ex-credit card junkies are just as bad as ex-smokers, and I happen to be one. I'm pretty much anti-debt in general; there is no financial situation so bad that compound interest can't make it worse. Part of the reason we're always so broke is that we now save up for everything we need or want. I admit life was a lot easier when we could just put it on a credit card, but it's really nice not stressing about how we're ever going to climb out of that hole. Really nice.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Answers

The thing that disturbs me is the barrage of television advertising for various forms of easy credit. If you watch TV during the day, it seems that every other ad is for mortgages available "regardless of your credit history," places that will advance you cash until payday, or big ticket items available with no money down.

I think these ads (and also lottery ads) should be banned for the same reason that liquor and tobacco television advertising is banned.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Yeah, I think those home equity loans are very much like the lottery: a tax on stupidity.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

At least in the case of the lottery, the profits go to the schools so that perhaps the next generation can be educated enough to avoid their parents' financial mistakes.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

It should be absolutely impossible for anyone under the age of 21 to get credit cards, and you should be required to take a class taught by people who got themselves in thousands and thousands of dollars in credit card debt.

I got my first credit card when I was 16, if you can believe it. It was only a gasoline credit card, but having some sort of credit history made it easier to get the Visas and Mastercards.

I have one credit card for emergencies, now. It took me forever to dig myself out of the credit card hole I dug when I was in my early 20's, and I think my ex-husband is still paying off his half.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Got my first Visa at 16, when my mom cosigned. I just paid it off last month. Yippee! I chopped it up ages ago, but it took forever to get rid of the balance.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Robyn wrote:

It should be absolutely impossible for anyone under the age of 21 to get credit cards, and you should be required to take a class taught by people who got themselves in thousands and thousands of dollars in credit card debt.

Well, that seems a bit draconian to me. Most people who get credit cards, even at an early age, don't abuse them.

Also, I doubt that such classes would have much of an effect. It seems to me that the root cause of the problem is not an ignorance of how credit cards work, but rather the glorified consumer culture we live in and the widespread feeling that we all deserve to own luxury items no matter what our income.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I learned the hard way, and found myself in serious debt about five years ago. Thatnks to my husband and Credit Counselors, I was able to consolidate all the credit card debt. I'll be making the final payments by the end of the summer. By the end of this year, I'll be totally debt-free.

My husband has credit cards, and we only use them for convenience, and only when we already have the money to pay the bill. All are paid off in full every month.

Learn from my mistakes and DON'T ever use your cards for cash advances or to accumulate more stuff. At one point I was paying $120/month on a VISA and only $13 was going towards the principal. It would have taken me 14 years to pay it off.

Go to Credit Counselors if you're having problems. They'll help you save your credit rating and get your bills paid off.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I'm glad that I don't have any debt, but the reason I don't is because I don't have credit, either. I admit that not having a credit card saves me a lot in impulse buying, but having credit could be handy. I mean, what if I want to get a house or a car? What if an emergency comes up, and I need to pay for it right away? I mean, I know that credit cards can be more trouble than they're worth, but they can be very useful.

Flipside of that, though: My friend Marty got himself in deep last year. He had a student line of credit. He bout all kinds of crazy stuff with it. When he dropped out, he had to pay it all back and couldn't. I know that if I don't have the money, I can't buy it. It does help me sleep at night, because I don't have to worry about my debts. When I was in university and college, all my friends were applying for credit cards through those student offers. Like a student can afford a credit card?

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

My wife and I use credit cards as a convenience. We pay them promptly and in full each month. We are, in the words of the credit card industry, a "profit suck customer". Within the last three years I've had to change cards three times because the companies in question no longer wanted me as a card holder.

My point is that if we reduce the number of people who run up extreme credit card debt, then eventually the credit card companies will find a much more lucrative business model. Then we, the "profit suck customers", will no longer have the convenience of credit cards.

If it were up to me, it just might be worth sacrificing a little convenience for the greater common good. What is more likely, however, is that the credit industry will determine methods of offering cards only to those candidates who are silly enough to abuse them.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I don't owe anyone anything (except for my house mortgage). All of my cars are paid for, my kids' braces, my vacations, etc. I've had credit cards for 30 years and never paid a dime in finance charges; I use them for convenience, not credit.

I have no sympathy for those in credit card debt; they make own their choices, they live with their actions. No, I wasn't born into wealth, I just never lived above my means.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Dave, people sometimes make mistakes and bad choices. If they choose to deal with the consequences in a responsible manner, then I can muster up some "sympathy" for them.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

All right, I'll admit it. I am in credit card debt BUT DEEP, BABY! This is my second time. I took on five figures of card debt getting through law school, on cards with fixed rates similar to my student loans, then paid the balance off in my first three years of legal practice in New York. I thought that would be the end of extended credit card debt.

I moved to Boston about a year later, when we had our first baby, taking a deep pay cut. Agfter another year, we bought a house. I was wiped out after the house closing, except for my 401k accounts. I even had to draw down $3,000 of my life insurance cash value.

Then, of course, as soon as we moved into the new house the furnace died. Nearly $4,000 later, they found that the asbestos in the basement had to be removed, not merely wrapped: $2,000. The stove died. I could have gotten by for $500, but spent $1,000. The electrician who wired the new stove found code violations in the wiring. This wasn't a put up job by the electrician -- the former owner of my house simply tied modern wiring into the original 1920s wiring, sort of willy-nilly throughout the house. $3,000 later, can you guess? the dishwasher goes. I'm $12,000 in debt on January 1 and my employer reneges on a large bonus he agreed to pay me. Then I do my taxes and find that there was a snafu in withholding that means I have to pay the IRS and Massachusetts $7,200 on April 15.

That, my friends, is why you find me back in New York working sweatshop hours -- that and my natural reluctance to continue working for an employer who nonchalantly reneges on agreed payments.

If the afore-mentioned house shopping spree makes me a credit card junkie, well, then make the most of it.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

This topic is very interesting to me, because I can relate to both sides of the issue.

When I turned 18 I got every credit card imaginable. I maxed them all out. Why? I guess because it was easy, it was defiantley fun, and when your that young it doesn't seem like anything you do will affect you in a bad way. The bad part came when I couldn't pay, the fees, and interest I was accruing just keeping adding up putting me way over my limits, and giving me minimum payment requirements that I could not pay. I remember lying to collectors telling them I would send whatever payment they had asked for, but I never had the money to do it. It really was a horrible, scary feeling. I worried all the time about what they would do to me, and how could I ever pay them. I finally borrowed enough money from my grandmother to pay them all off and about a year later I paid her off.

Here's the irony: I now work for a bank. What do I do? Well my primary job is to sue people who can't or won't make their payments. By the time these people get to me they've already been collected on by various other people. It gets handed to me, and I decide whether I think they'll pay or if I should just sue them.

What I'd like to share with you from my experience is that debt doesn't make you a bad person. You're not stupid because you have trouble handling your finances, and almost everyone else has been there too. I know you're not looking for sympathy (someone made that statement, and I'm sorry, but it was dumb).

If your having problems contact the collections department of the bank you owe money to. They will work with you I promise.

As far as credit counseling is concerned. I wouldn't recommend it. They can't do anything for you that you can't do for yourself, and you have to pay them.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Of course there are times when people get into terrible situations and have to make hard choices. And the really bad situations -- job loss, death, illness, catastrophic economic collapse -- are the ones for which bankruptcy was invented.

But if there is one thing I learned from my over-the-top credit days, it was the value of emergency resources. Even though I'm still paying off one high interest credit card, I put an equal amount into an emergency savings fund every month. Otherwise, when the next emergency comes along, I just turn right back to the credit cards, and I'm back where I started.

Those 12 months "same as cash" deals aren't so bad for major purchases if you actually can and WILL pay it off in that time. That's how we're buying our fridge, although we'll have it paid off in three months. And we're starting a new savings account for the rewiring job that needs to be done on our house, although that could rise to an emergency situation so we'll have to dig into other savings for that. I am now super paranoid about having a safety net.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Two of the most liberating moments of my life were when I paid off my college loans and when I paid off the credit card balance that was growing on my card for five years, starting when I finished my master's degree and had a tough year freelancing (it wasn't such a lot of money but I'm a gradual student). Apart from that I have never owed anything and I never want to. It's going to be bad enough sorting out my parents' mess when they go; I'm not going to add to it.

The downside: My credit rating is probably lousy, and because I don't own a house or car or a couch or a refrigerator, many other people in their 30s don't take me seriously - it's like being My Friend Moonbeam. (And look, she's still wearing sandals and a backpack. You don't think she's going to ask to sleep on the couch, do you?)

Credit bad. Ramen noodles good, up to a point.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Not to say that you're wrong, Beth....but you're wrong! Insurance was made to handle those "bad situations", not Bankruptcy. Like K.C., I am also a collector, the kind that takes things away from people when they don't pay their bills. Most people get into trouble with their debt when they don't enter into it wisely. Bankruptcy is a tool, but should only be used when EVERY other resource is exhausted. Most people are not aware that there are some very serious long term affects to their credit when Bankruptcies are discharged. Unless you plan on "striking it rich" after Bankruptcy, plan on living below your means and having a car that is dependable enough to get you where you need to go for the next 7 years. Financing companies that give people money after bankruptcy look look at debt ratio and credit history very carefully and only a SMALL percentage of the people that apply for credit are approved. Even then, how comfortable do you think those people are when they wind up paying 18% interest on a brand new car?

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I'm curious -- if you say insurance was invented for the situations I listed, but you still say there are times when bankruptcy is a legitimate tool for getting out of debt, when exactly would you say bankruptcy is okay? I mean, if not for job loss, death, illness, etc., then when? (And of course I don't mean, "Oops, lost your job, got sick, file for bankruptcy." I'm assuming there is really no other option.)

And I always thought no one could get credit for seven years after bankruptcy, too, but I was apparently wrong. The guy in the story to which I linked has credit cards and has qualified for a car loan -- and he filed in 1997. I work with a woman who has had two bankruptcies in the last ten years, and she owns a house with two mortgages and has lots of credit cards. I know another person with a fairly recent bankruptcy who has two auto loans. I don't know how people do it, but obviously they do.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Every line of credit, installment loan, etc....provides optional insurance to cover a multitude of situations from disability to death. There ARE situations in which Bankruptcy is the only way out, just not the reasons that most people file today. A good portion of the people that file are taking an easy way out of the debt that THEY are responsible for. I know that if I was facing something as serious as Bankruptcy, I would get an after hours job scraping monkey crap off of the bottom of the Zoo keeper's shoes just to make the money I needed to pay my bills. Most people are way too lazy to take the responsibility or the initiative to do something about the situation they've put themselves into. They are not BAD people, just lazy.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Well, then, we're pretty much in agreement on the subject of bankruptcy. I always sort of assumed those insurance deals were a rip-off, though. Not for big items like mortgages, etc., but for (hopefully) smaller debts like credit cards.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Bankruptcy as far as I'm concerned is rarely ever ok, ever. I can understand being in a bad financial situation. The thing to remember is that your credit cards, car loans, unsecured loans, etc., these people have loaned you money. By filing bankruptcy you are saying I am never, ever going to pay you back the money that you've loaned me in good faith.

I have dealt with a lot of bankruptcies and I think it's safe to say that I've never seen a person file bankruptcy for a good reason. It's simply not ethical.

I've heard people argue this point quite a bit. The most common statement I hear is that the bank charges too much interest; implying, I assume that the bank as been ripping them off, so the bank deserves to lose thier money. What I don't understand is how can you not realize that had the bank not loaned you that money, it would still be in the bank collecting interest.

You borrow money. You agree to pay it back with interest. You sign a contract. Pay the money back. Difficult concept? I think not.

As for people getting credit after filing bankruptcy... Well, it sucks. The reason they get away with it is simple. There are many companies who can make money off of people who filed bankruptcy.

Example: OK, I'll give you the money for a car, here are the terms: Your interest rate will be obscenely high, you will put a down payment of at least a grand, and if you make 1 late payment I will repossess your vehicle and sell it again for a profit.

Anyone who has filed bankruptcy and has credit cards either a) reafirmmed the original debt, b)has security for the card, c)is a big old fat liar.

And by the way it costs at least $500 to file bankruptcy. Why not be an honest person and pay your debts instead?

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

This is funny, because you guys (Chad and K.C.) are reaffirming my gut feelings about bankruptcy. I just assume that there are times when things are so bad that there is no other way for people to get out from under.

But then I think of all the people I've known who have been absolutely drowning in debt, either because of carelessness or catastrophy, and have not filed for bankruptcy. I've known people who've paid off six figure medical bills on less than $40,000 a year. I've known people who've sold everything they owned and taken on three jobs to pay off huge debts incurred by their children under the parents' names.

I will say that I've never believed that any of the people I knew who filed for bankruptcy had a good reason -- and none of them seemed to learn a damn thing from the experience, either. But I guess I'd just like to assume that there are folks out there who do have good reasons. It seems like such a horrible process that you wouldn't go through it if you didn't have to, but obviously that's not the case.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I wouldn't put too much weight into what Chad says though. After all he is just my assistant.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Someone here wisely said that the problem is about people's belief in entitlement to luxury goods that is the problem, and I agree.

A zillion years ago, when I was an undergrad, my women's fraternity had a financial counsellor in to teach the basics of money, credit, and debt, and I wish that that sort of thing was mandatory for graduation. At 17, I had credit cards, and a chequing account, but no real concept of debt and consequences, and i learned so much from her. She walked us through budgeting, and the importance of saving, and about how much items really cost if you factored in the interest you pay if you carry a credit card balance. It was a fabulous lesson.

People who habitually live beyond their means drive me nuts. Don't drive over to my house in your $40 000 SUV, and walk in my door wearing a pair of $400 shoes, and carrying a brand new Prada backpack, and then flop down on my couch and whine about how you have no money.

I know a lot of people who have the luxury entitlement problem, in part because they were brought up to believe that they would automatically be living at or above their parent's particular socio- economic niche after university graduation. I also know a lot of women who have this problem because they were raised with the expectation that they would marry well, and in their early twenties, and now, at 30, still rent and are paying off massive credit cards debts that represent the contents of their closets, and live paycheque to paycheque.

I am stunned to see so many ads on tv for easy credit cards in the States. I love the testimonials - "Now, when I want something, I just put my card down on the counter!". And title loans, where you borrow $500, and if you don't pay it back in a week, they get your car. Scary!

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Man, what bank do you work for? No wonder interest rates are so high! Isn't anyone working over there this afternoon? ;-)

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Hey, collections is hard work. You have to have at least six hours a day of downtime to cope with it all.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Don't let K.C. fool you. I just booted her around a little after that snyde comment about being her assistant. She realized her role as a woman once I confronted her on her last post. I gaurantee that she will never challenge a man's authority or superiority again.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I would never question a man's authority. Too bad there aren't any around here.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

That's not what you said last night.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

KC: Credit Counselors of Calif does not charge. They are, in fact, underwritten by credirt card companies and banks, who have a vested interest in getting paid. What they did for me [and other clients] is use their leverage to get interest levels reduced or eliminated. They also offer a number of classes and workshops on budgerting, money management, etc. They also make lumps payments to creditors, so clients only have to pay them each month, instead of having to pay each creditor individually.

For some people bankruptcy is a desperate option. I've known of a few women who've been abandoned by their spouses with no financial resources and had no other choice. They had not way they could possibly pay off their massive debts.

I think bankruptcy should be only for extreme circumstances. For every person who uses it as a way to way away from their debts, there is someone who deserves a second chance [after paying as much as they can on debts].

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I know what I said last night was more along the lines of "will you please stop calling and breathing into the phone? I don't want to have to call the police".

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I know that you said that you didn't want to call the police.....but how many times do I have to tell you that I'm not into that kinky "Good cop, Bad Cop" thing?

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Joy,

Credit Counselors used to not charge people, they based their income soley on fairshare contributions from creditors. Now the policy is that they always charge. If you joined the program before that you were lucky.

But, like I said you can do all of that other stuff for yourself. Credit companies will lower your interest, set your payments however is most convienient for you, you just have to ask.

Now as far as the classes go, I think that's great more people should learn about debt management.

Bankruptcy is never the only way out. Your friends took the easy way out.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Chad's too funny, I can't even compete with that last one. =)

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I worked for a bank in the credit card area a long time ago, and I can't get over how much the industry has changed. It used to be hard to get credit. Now banks can make more money on people who default because they can sell the accounts to collection agencies so they make it easy to get credit because they don't care if the accounts will be good or not.

Another thing - Visa controlled what businesses banks could set up as merchants. They wouldn't allow grocery stores, for example, to accept credit cards with the reasoning that if someone was buying food on credit, they were pretty bad off and unlikely to be able to pay. Now I guess the banks have lobbied to change this, because every market takes cards. I still shudder when I see someone doing this, though. And I have friends who say they always charge their groceries and pay them off, so they can get frequent flyer miles. Well, what about that month when you forget to pay and get that $29 late charge? Just to get the miles. This is crazy.

I had some problems with credit when I had my first well paying job. It's so easy, and I think it's a mistake anyone can make. But I got myself out of it and don't have much respect for people who make the same credit mistakes over and over, or for people who declare bankruptcy and then do it all over again.

It's true, there is such a sense of entitlement - I confess I have it too. But I see it as something to fight, not a feeling to give in to.

Currently I have a mortgage and two credit cards, one of which I pay off every month. I don't save as much as I could but I don't get cash advances or use my credit for eating out or other daily expenses.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Lizzie, how can a person "forget" to pay their bills? Neglect or ignore, perhaps, but it's kind of hard to forget, especially when the first of the momth rolls around.

KC, do you work for a bank of a collection agency? Banks may be reasonable with a delinquent creditor, but my experience with collection agencies is that they use threats and intimidation.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I think it's pretty easy to forget to pay bills...you get it, you don't feel like digging out your checkbook so you leave it on your desk for a day or two, and then it gets buried underneath all your other paper and you completely forget about it.

As for the first of the month thing, I don't have any bills that are due on the first. Even my rent is due on the 12th.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Okay - side note - anyone notice that their name isn't remembered by the cookie for this?

Next...

I agree with Robyn's earlier comment by in large. I too racked up a lot of debt my first year in college and it took me forever to figure out how, exactly, credit cards are used. I suck at budgeting, so I have one credit card and pay it off each month. I have a car loan that I'd like to pay off early, but don't make any effort to. I have about 25K in retirement, but that's really only because my company matches, I have profit sharing, etc.

Point: I've managed to damage control myself to the point where I can actually not realy owe too much money, but I need more practice/advice on how to get it together enough to actually save. Beth said they save for big purchases. I just don't make them. I don't have a house, I make enough that most of my emergencies (knock on wood) can be covered with relative ease....

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

To make it impossible to forget, pay all your bills at the same time-- say, the last three days of the month. Sometimes you can get credit cards, etc., to adjust your payment schedule to make this easier.

As bills arrive, open and place in a folder, so there's no chance of misplacing them.

[more stuff I learned the hard way]

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I'm living the "Grasshopper and the Ants" story.

I'm the ant. I have mortgage, but it's much lower than the max level I could have gotten. I have several credit cards, and pay them off every month. I am really bad about "investing", but I have a few mutual funds (or money market funds, I really don't know the difference) plus a company retirement account. In short, I have pretty basic tastes and have no trouble living well below my means.

My brother is the grasshopper. He has always lived for today, spending money and living life as if every day were his last (he has a lot more fun than me, too!). However, several years ago he discovered gambling. And the credit card cash advance. Do you know that if you're a "regular", there's really no nightly limit? At the same time, he was a student, but still managed golf and drinks and nice dinners several times a week. He's now far more in debt from compounding interest than I am from my mortgage.

He went on line for a "see how long it will be before your credit card is paid off" and the answer (for at least 5 (yes, 5) of his cards) was "NEVER". Not 30 years, not 80 years, but mathmatically NEVER. That's a lot of debt.

He's looking into credit counseling, but has some of the doubts that people have expressed here (can you do it yourself, does it really make a difference, does it destroy your credit....). Please, can someone who knows how this works e-mail me with some help? I refuse to help him by giving him money (the money I have to give would be insignificant in the face of his debt) but I can see him really, really drownding and I want to help. He has talked of suicide as the only way to get out of debt. He doesn't only because he knows that would devestate my parents and me.

Sorry, long post. This subject just really touches a nerve. Thanks to anyone with words of advice...

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

I made bad mistakes when i was younger because i was brought up in a household where debt was displayed as normal. Because i never knew any better, i am currently paying off MasterCard and Visa. I try to pay mkore than the minimum or it will take forever.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not actively blaming my family, but it is definitely not helpful when your family doesn't teach you financial smarts.

What i can blame part of my family for is this: My father declared bankruptcy about four years ago. He can't get a credit card anymore until the seven years have passed (looks like it does still work that way Beth, at least sometimes). My old bank sent me a pre-approved credit card application form - but they sent it to my parents' and not to my own apartment. My father saw it, opened it, filled it out, and sent it off. He got the card in the mail. Obviously he couldn't use the card in stores but he COULD use it in bank machines to get cash advances. Unfortunately and *thank whatever God you subscribe to for me* he scratched too hard when trying to uncover the secret pin number. He tried to get it changed at the bank, claiming this was a joint account. The teller told him that it was a no-go since it was in my name. He then had the balls to call me, tell me about the whole thing and ASKED me to change the pin number so that he could use a credit card in my name.

Oh man. A person who ran up his own debt so much that he floundered, a man who declared bankruptcy, and he wanted me to hand over my own credit? Credit which wasn't top-notch as it was, but which i was carefully and painstakingly trying to clear up for my future so i could buy a house or lease a car some day with decent credit.

I tossed and turned for nights. I cried. I asked myself and my boyfriend how my own father could put me in that position.

In the end i told him know, to which he said, "Oh. Not even *for your own father*? Well thanks a lot."

Things have been, umm, strained since then between us. My mother doesn't know.

So i get touchy about debts from carelessness. Because some people let it turn them into thoughtless jerks, thinking only of how to cover their ass and get more money. And that is why i am paying my own credit card bills every single month, without fail.

Debt is scary.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Oh yeah!

And Joy? Thanks for your first post on this topic waaaaay up there. Hearing that you have managed to get yourself down to a point where you can see the light at the end of the proverbial tunnel... well it's inspiring and it helps me to know i will get there too.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

My husband and I carry a massive debt load, but in our defense, it's all student loans. Now, debt is debt, but debt that will be automatically discharged in case of death or disability is easier for me to accept. Also, going into this particular debt was practical. We have higher salaries and enjoy what we do because of our educations, which together cost $100,000. Since we finished school, we've paid off about half of that total pretty quickly, by continuing to live like graduate students. The remainder should be paid off, at the latest, by the end of 2001.

Now, when we got married, it was a different story entirely. My husband was carrying thousands of dollars of credit card debt, and had a car loan. We racked up even more expenses on credit cards when I became violently ill during our honeymoon in Europe, requiring an emergency trip to a hospital and then a last-minute flight home (Those tickets cost $2000 apiece, one-way: should we have purchased trip insurance? Oh my, yes.)

For the first six months after our return, we spent no money, at all, on anything besides groceries, rent, and subway passes. Once a month we'd rent a movie. And we paid off the cards. Then we paid off the car and started on the student loans. It was a royal pain in our joint asses, and while I'm proud that we did it, I do get annoyed at people who live beyond their means. But not unduly annoyed, frankly, because as a wise professor of mine once said, "People like that fall of their own weight."

I talk with people all the time who don't save for retirement, who liquidate their kids' "college funds" every month to pay for trips to Burger King, and who can't bother to go see a lawyer and get a will written up so that if they die their kids won't be shoved in a foster home somewhere, and I think it's sad that they don't seem to know any better. It's the last one that really upsets me; if you wouldn't leave your kids alone for an evening without a babysitter, how can you justify leaving them alone and unprotected in the event that you die? I can barely be civil when I talk to parents who don't want to bother with a will. Oops, wrong thread. But STILL.

Sometimes I feel like there should be something to pound some sense into folks, but I don't know what. Mandatory financial counseling? We had that in high school and almost no one paid attention. It's not like all the information that anyone could want on how to handle your money isn't widely and readily available. I was once a dumb cluck about managing money (that would be just after our wedding). A trip to the library, where I picked up the three books with the most awards and read them gave me all the information I have ever needed. Save at least 10% of your income and live on the rest. Protect your earning power with disability insurance and health insurance. Protect your loved ones with a will, because the state doesn't give a damn about what you wanted otherwise. Keep an emergency fund of at least three months expenses available in ready money. Don't carry a balance on your credit cards. And so on. It's not rocket science.

But it's pretty boring advice, I suppose, next to "I could have a Lexus for these low monthly payments!" In the end, everyone gets to choose how they're going to live, and some of those choices will be bad choices.

It annoys me that that guy filed for bankruptcy, and I don't even think that it should be possible in his case, but he's the one that has to check "yes" on the "Have you ever filed for bankruptcy?" question on every job application, loan application, and request for an account for the rest of his life.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Former credit card junkie.

I got suckered in college like many another spoiled brat.

I won't go into the whole story, because I'm tired of telling it, but briefly -- debt breeds debt.

I am looking forward to the day when I can cancel the accounts with every single one of those credit card companies.

We're about halfway there. One more year and it's done. Finito. Moving across the country didn't help of course, but even with the higher cost of living in the Bay Area, the huge leap of income will help enormously.

Time to tighten the belt and just sock those babies to death.

I wish that the world didn't revolve around credit cards so much. In every instance, it's simpler to pay by credit card. But chances are it will get you in trouble every time, unless you only pay for what you know you can afford.

Being a debt-carrier, I feel deeply ashamed of my own behavior. Carrying the debt has become a much heavier load than I ever anticipated.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

Someone asked how to save money ... different people do it in different ways. Jeremy, for instance, does just fine going through the month buying what he can afford to buy, and putting what's left over at the end into savings. Sickening, isn't it? For me, since I get paid once a month, I just have a certain amount automatically deducted into a savings account. Most people will tell you that you should put a minimum of ten percent of your income away every month. I used to quibble with that -- hey, if you make eight bucks an hour, you need every dime, right? -- but if you think of saving as an alternative to paying someone else interest, it starts to make sense that you can put away ten percent even if you don't make very much money.

When you save for a particular item, it's even easier, provided you know you're going to want/need it in advance. Think of it like this: say you plan to buy a car, and you know your payment will be around $350 a month. You just make a deal with yourself that you're not going to buy the car until you have the money to pay cash, and you start making that car payment now -- to your car fund, which hopefully earns some kind of interest.

Separate accounts work for me. I think Jeremy thinks it's a silly method for saving money, but he isn't a spendaholic, so what does he know? As soon as we finish paying off our refrigerator (we're splitting it fifty-fifty, with each of us making half of the three payments we plan to make), we're going to put that same amount into two new savings accounts: one for our trip to Australia fund and one for our car fund. We already have some money for the latter, but my secret desire is to pay cash for our new truck so we don't have a car payment at all.

-- Anonymous, June 20, 2000

That was me asking about the savings thing.... Thanks for those who wrote about the 10%. My goal for the month - since its the end of the quarter - is to get my finances in order.

Thank God I'm not big in debt. I hated that feeling.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Joy,

I work for a bank not a collection agency. I do see your point, those collection agencies can be bastards.

What I would like to tell you guys is that if you are getting harrassed by a collection agency, they have rules they have to follow. They cannot harrass you. They cannot call you more than 1 time in a day, they cannot let the phone ring more than 5 times, they cannot call you at work, they can only call you between 9am and 8pm, they must identify themselves right away, they cannot use any threats or scare tactics. They cannot discuss your debt with anyone but you, they cannot leave any messages on your machine that refer to your debt.

If any collection agency calls you and does any of these things, you tell them that they are violating the fair debt collection act. Ask to speak to their supervisor. They could have a serious lawsuit.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Some of you were talking about how people "forget" to pay their bills. One of the solutions was to pay all of your bills at one time. This is a great solution, but let me take this one step further. I worked with someone who had a great way of keeping track of her bills and her money. She would pay all of her bills on payday, but would not write checks....instead, she would get money orders. That way, there was no confusion as to how much money she had left after paying her bills and would never have to worry about what checks were left unpaid.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I've seen a lot of people rail about "There's never a good reason to file for bankruptcy" but I totally disagree. My parents did about 5 years ago, and are doing extremely well as a result. They don't have a large credit debt now, and probably never will again in their life. After my father was injured and lost his job as a result, then get the highest paying jobs ($8 an hour) he could and work his tail off...While my mother worked 2 jobs as well, and trying to manage 3 kids at the same time. On top of that, I got seriously ill and I'll never know how much further into debt I put my parents. They didn't get into debt because they had expensive cars or furniture, they got into debt because of injuries, medical bills, and then later day to day life. Their bankruptcy had nothing to do with being too lazy to pay it off.

After they filed for bankruptcy everything changed, because they were able to put money away instead of paying interest on bills. My mom was able to go to school and is now a teacher. My father was able to find a job in his field finally and they are doing well. They're able to get credit cards, but all its used for is gas and groceries so its one bill at the end of the month. If they hadn't filed I don't wanna know where things would have ended up.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

It's really relieving to see that there are so many others out there who, like me, went a little nuts with credit in their first experience with it, and have learned the valuabe lessons and gotten on track. Frankly, I think that's the way 50% of the population learn about it. The other half either never learn their lesson (thus, the multiple bankruptcy filings) or were lucky enough to know proper financial management from the get go.

I know I was lucky -- I never got more than a couple grand in debt on my credit card (student loans are another story, but I don't consider them to be in the same category -- I consider them more of an investment in the future), so I was able to pay them off completely within a couple of months of gainful employment. Now, my husband and I use credit to buy just about everything, but the bill gets paid in total at the end of the month, and we get a small percentage refunded back to us at the end of the year (more companies than just Discover are doing this now). This way, our money earns interest for the month while sitting in the bank, then earns us about the same amount when we pay it out to our creditor.

I must admit, I never really understood how someone (barring unforeseen emergencies like death or illness) could rack up tens of thousands of credit card debt without knowing it would bite them in the ass someday. I mean, even at my deepest point of credit card debt, I always knew I was going to have to either cut up the cards and pay it all off, or at least accept that I would always be making payments and stick someone I love with the debt when I die. I'd started to notice a lot more commercials on TV advising people of the imprtance of good credit, and I commented to my husband that it just seemed like common sense -- why did it have to be advertised. That's when he told me some of his stories. He oversees about seventy-five 18-24 year-olds, and not a day goes by when he isn't trying to help one of them get out of piles of credit card debt on their meager salaries (he's in the Navy). It's unbelievable -- the sales pitches the credit companies lay on these guys to get them to sign up, then hurrying them through the process so they never read the fine print. I absolutely agree with the earlier posts that that said there should be some type of universal class or training in financial management in schools. It may not hit home in everone,but if it helps keep just a few out of debt and bankruptcy, its got to be worth it.

Exit soapbox, stage left . . .

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Re people getting loans after bankruptcy: If I remember correctly, the bankruptcy code says that when several creditors are competing to grab pieces of your hide, the creditors who loaned you money while you were bankrupt have priority over the ones who loaned you money before the bankruptcy. This provides some incentive for the bottom-feeding credit-card issuers; it also allowed some corporations with reasonably healthy finances to improve their financial position by declaring bankruptcy and then taking out new loans.

I read a newspaper article a few months ago about revisions in the US bankruptcy laws that make it more difficult to declare personal bankruptcy. The law passed with little opposition, but some Congresscritters proposed an amendment: that every credit-card statement should disclose how long it would take, if you made the minimum payment every month, to discharge your entire outstanding balance. Unsurprisingly, that amendment didn't get passed.

Re student loans: Yes, getting a college education increases your income, but if you have the choice between a cheap state school and a fancy private university, the difference in income-potential between the two degrees may not make up for the difference in debt-burden.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Michele, I'm glad that your parents are doing so well after the financial institutions that they owed got shafted. The reason that your parents filed Bankruptcy was because they did not enter into any of their debt wisely. The circumstances that you speak of (sickness, injury, etc...) are all what account insurance was invented for. When banks lose money, it causes rates to go up, how else are they going to recover even a small part of the money they lose when people stiff them for the money that is owed? Why should other people have to suffer with higher interest rates just because someone jumped into debt without looking and then took the easy way out? As far as your parents getting credit is concerned...do you have any idea what kind of interest they are paying. When our bank finances a secured loan on a brand new car, if you have a discharged Bankruptcy be prepared to pay 18-21% interest for being such a high risk. In my opinion, it's not worth it.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Beth,

Don't pay off your refrigerator in three months. If you did the "12 months, same as cash" deal, why not keep your money in a place that will actually earn you money the whole year, instead of giving it to the appliances place. You know you'll pay it off, anyway.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

There are student loans, and then there are student loans. I came out of law school with about $16,000 in loans, and I thought I was going to kill myself. (It didn't help that I hadn't realized that one of my private loans came due immediately after graduation, i.e., in the middle of studying for the bar exam, and that I wouldn't be able to get a deferral for unemployment or under-employment or being so goddamn broke that I couldn't get the heat turned on.) I still wish I hadn't done it; I made it through my third year in law school without loans, and I was fine. If I could have done that the other two years, I'd be much better off.

But I know people who came out of law school with $150,000 in student loans, plus $10-20,000 in credit card debt. That's insane, people. Yeah, some lawyers make lots and lots of money. Some lawyers don't. One of the student loan companies that a lot of people use -- which I will not name here, because I finally got them off my ass after six years and I still need them to fix my credit report -- is notoriously hard assed about deferrments and forebearances and all that crap. A friend of mine had loan payments in the $1,400/month range immediately after graduation. The company wouldn't give her a deferral, so she was behind by the time she passed the bar (you can't work during the bar; really, you can't). She couldn't find a job immediately, and when she did find one, her take home pay wasn't enough to cover the loan payment. She asked for lower monthly payments. "Get another job," the loan people told her. So she got a part time job at the mall, and it still wasn't enough. "Get a better job," the loan people told her. She explained that she didn't have time to send out resumes, what with working a first year associate job AND working at a gift shop at the mall in the evenings, and asked for a temporary reduction in monthly payments. They started sending her final notices, i.e., the ones that say, "Pay the full amount now or we'll take your pets," and finally she said, "Fine. DEFAULT ME." And they did.

That's roughly what happened to me, although my payments were much lower. I couldn't find a job; I wrote letter after letter after letter, along with a check for whatever I could manage. No deferral. No nothing. They called every day; I got a letter almost every day. I got a job; it paid about twelve bucks an hour and barely covered my rent. I moved to a cheaper apartment. I had a form letter for my student loan company that I sent in response to every letter they sent me, along with a check for $10 or $20 or $50.

They defaulted my loan in 1994, the same week that I got my current job. I haven't missed a payment since I got my job, but it was too late, of course. The only reason I was able to buy this house is that I had stubs showing regular payments dating back to 1994, and our loan officer talked to one of the rude and obnoxious staff people at the loan company, and came back infuriated. I finally convinced him that although my credit report makes it look like I defaulted on about $50,000 worth of loans, it's actually the same loan, repeated over and over and over. And of course I've made every single payment on it since one year after I passed the bar, which is when most law school lenders start repayment. Thank God I had all that original documentation.

I got the loan out of default status after four years of not missing a payment, but it's still there on my credit report, with no indication that I've ever made a single payment on it. The kicker: since the original bank was bought out about four times, it was impossible for me to get that credit report fixed. I spent months hasseling the reporting companies, the bank, the loan company, you name it. I memorized the goddamn Fair Credit Reporting Act or whatever it's called. I finally gave up; it will drop off sooner or later.

People talk about student loans as if they're some other kind of credit, the kind that's no hassle, but it's not true. Know what you're getting into before you sign up.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Because, Maxine, if we're late or we don't get it paid off by the deadline, we suddenly have retroactive interest and finance charges that amount to about 27%. I'm paying it off; I don't need that risk. After three months, the same amount goes into savings every month, so it's not a big deal.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I have to weigh in in favor of having an escape valve like bankruptcy. The consumer creditors -- retail stores and credit card companies -- know about bankruptcy law, and they can take into account the fact that a certain percentage of their customers will seek bankruptcy protection when they set their rates. Yes, in a sense we all pay for it, but the people who seek bankruptcy protection would have become non-performing accounts for the creditors anyway, and if there weren't bankruptcy protection the creditors would still build the percentage of non-performing accounts into their rates.

Bankruptcy makes the most sense for people like the self-employed financial manager whose story annoyed Beth -- people who owe more than $100,000 and don't have any way out. I personally am not offended when someone like that financial manager treats the bankruptcy regime as a right, but I understand why Beth objects to his sense of entitlement when he's essentially using our money to pay his debt.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Uh, yeah, cause there is a way to "wisely" enter NEEDED surgeries for a knee that had to be reconstructed so a person could walk again. Especially when they have to be done asap or its no good. And when your kid is really sick there's another way to wisely enter the debt too, right? And what way would that be, praytell? Bankruptcy isn't something my parents entered lightly into, and in the end it was actually recommended to them.

Its easy to sit on your side of the fence and say "They're just being lazy - the poor companies got shafted!" or whatever else you would like to say. But have you ever had those sort of occasions arrise? When they say "Surgery now or no walking again" which would you choose? When they say "your kid needs x, x, and x, or she has a small likelihood of making it" what would you do? The three years they spent trying to pay the debt off was anything but easy.

As far as their rates - My dad's credit card is 9% even. My mom's is at 12.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Re: Chad's thoughts on bankruptcy- my guess is Chad is about 22, and this is his first or second office job. That shine should rub off- if it doesn't he'll make a hell of a collections officer.

Re: Student loans- not that I know anything about it (nooooooo), but I do think that it is generally a safer bet than consumer credit. Most student loan terms are the same, and not outrageously underhanded in their marketing. I think higher education, along with homes (and occasionally cars?) is one of the few times it's better to use credit than saving in advance.

Had I saved up until I could pay cash for law school, it wouldn't have been worth what was lost in earnings in the mean time.

(of course, if I had $100K saved up, screw law school, I'd be down in Panama exploiting tourists during the week and building my house on the weekends . . . .f***, I think I made the wrong choice . . .).

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Don't think that you are the only family to go through medical hardships. I can tell you that my Mother has gone through 3 seperate brain surgeries to remove a tumor. When I say that someone does not enter into debt wisely, I mean that they did not take steps to make sure the debt could be paid if these problems were to arise.

No bank likes to lose money, that is why there is optional insurance for just about every debt that you can enter into. This is to not only protect it's clients, but the institution as well. The bank makes no money on the premium that is paid, but is taken care of if the signer is no longer able to make payments for one reason or another.

If your family does not have insurance to take care of their bills, that is their choosing, they should be expected to pay the consequences. I can identify with any family experiencing medical hardship and all the bills associated with it, but after all....isn't that what health insurance is for?

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Michelle,

Why praytell, would your parents want credit cards again anyway? Haven't they successfully proven that they can't handle their finances?

Oh, well I guess after they max them out again, and can't make the payments, they can just file bankruptcy again.

What I don't understand is why your parents didn't have health insurance for you. Even if they had to apply for free health insurance, wouldn't it be worth it?

Really, the only way your parents got into this situation is irresponsibility or simple laziness.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Curtis; good point on the student loan to boost future income.

However, I disagree with you about car loans; new/fancy cars are merely a vanity item. Buy a dependable used car from someone else who has already paid for the depreciation (and pay cash!).

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

With all due respect, Chad and K.C., you guys may know a lot about collections, but you apparently don't know jack shit about health insurance. "Apply for free health insurance?" Do you live in the U.S.? Have you ever been low income or had a job that didn't include benefits? There's nothing like pulling down $800 a month and finding out that the most basic health insurance (that would not have covered Michelle's surgery, I guarantee it) is going to cost you $150 a month.

And there's nothing like exceeding your coverage limits and finding out that yes, those bills are coming to you. Calling a medical emergency "laziness" is just obnoxious and rude.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

KC: It must get dizzying up there on your high horse. But you do have the extra time that comes with never making a mistake, always planning ahead and having the answer to everything.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

In every city, and I do mean every. There is free health insurance for children. I do happen to know quite a bit on this subject (thank you very much). Any insurance company would cover a surgery that would allow a child to walk.

And by the way if you don't have a job that offers health insurance and you can't afford it, why are you having kids?

I think it really all goes back to my statement about irresponsibility.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Thanks Joy! No matter how dizzy I get it's still nice to be able to focus in, and give thanks to the people who appreciate my good points.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Perhaps someone will recognize your all-knowingness and move you out of the collections dept...

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

But if they did that I wouldn't get to spend my day collecting on deadbeats like youself.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Re: And by the way if you don't have a job that offers health insurance and you can't afford it, why are you having kids?

Err, well sometimes people lose a job after they've had kids. If you've already had kids and then your company downsizes, closes, etc and you're out of a job, what do you expect people to do? Turn their kids into the nearest foster home with a shrug?

I think it's not necessarily a bad thing to get a credit card again after large debts if you have learned from the experience and can use them wisely. I closed both my credit card accounts once i maxed them out. Once i have paid off my debts i will apply for a new card. What my debts have taught me though will guide me. I will not carry my card with me when i go shopping as i now know that i am far too compulsive to keep one in my wallet. I will use it only in the case of an emergency - i.e., if the fridge or stove breaks and must be replaced. Other than that, i would like to use it from time to time when i know very well that we can pay it off in full when the bill comes in so that i can establish a good credit rating.

But i have indeed learned my credit lesson.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

The surgery so he could walk again was for my father. Insurance? Yep, they had it. Did it cover everything? Nope. It didn't even cover %15 of the cost. As for the problems I had, I'm not gonna go into detail, but the insurance only covered about %50 of the things I went through. That was before the company dropped us, because it was my father's insurance company, who got rid of his position because he was out of work for the knee surgery in the first place. Yeah, they did an awful job of planning for that one alright! Either way, that isn't the point.

A more valid point would be - if the only people who did bankruptcy were people like my parents, or people who have actual valid reasons for doing it - this discussion wouldn't be here.

As for why they have credit cards now...did you not read what I said? "They're able to get credit cards, but all its used for is gas and groceries so its one bill at the end of the month." Gee, sounds real irresonsible.

If the money they had gone into debt over were things like clothes just 'cause, stereo's, cars, toys, frivilous things...I wouldn't have defended the action. It wasn't shit like that though.

And really, you judging the situation from my information alone and calling them lazy just goes to show how little you know about things. I'm sure you see deadbeats daily, and perhaps that jades your view. Then again maybe you are as much of a jerk as you're coming off as right now.

I'm glad that your mother has had the financial means to always pay for her medical problems. I have not once gone off and claimed that my family was the only one that went through this, either. However, I think bankruptcy was probably put in place for situations like this. Good honest people who have spent their entire lives paying off their bills ran into a situation that they can't get out of.

As for my parents being deadbeats - they spent their lives up until this bankruptcy paying every bill that came their way. Since then they've done so again. This type of thing shouldn't be the target of your apparent rage.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

'free insurance' comes w/a price - that price is a limited, very limited income if you are a single mom - in fact, over $20,000 will negate your eligibility for medicaid in the state of fl -

not all surgeries are covered by all insurances, especially medicaid, floridas 'free insurance' - many surgeries that have been done routinely for years w/other insurances are considered experimental by medicaid - therefore NOT COVERED....

try this: rent, car payment, groceries, lights, utilities, day care; on your job u get insurance, but your child costs 200$ extra a month....so....u get ins for kid too...but uh oh...not enough money for groceries or rent - so u get a second job....more day care - less time w/child - no dad - single mom - so u get fed up - and u decide some of this can wait - and credit card payments are the most expendable of the group - o but wait a sec - they were irresponsible for getting credit cards in the first place and maintaining them responsibly for years until situations changed - and they were used for o, lets see - totally trivial and luxury items....2 emrgency med visits for child when mom was working temp jobs and didnt have insurance....some prescriptions in there - asthma med was really a luxury....clothes, groceries, car repair....light bill....etc....

does that make the person a 'bad' or 'lazy' person because they have higher priorities than becoming a model credit client?

there are many factors that make bankruptcy a solution for some - it is used as an escape for many - NOT ALL - judge them individually - wouldnt it bother anyone to be compared to all immature 22 year olds with no experience ever of Having to depend on only yourself?????

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Well thanks for the update on Florida's health insurance. Why were you giving us that information again?

Well it sounds like you were living beyond your means before you got pregnant. Here's a thought..... Why not try financial stability before you run around sleeping with men that your not even married to. I mean, it's just a thought.

Should you be considered a bad or lazy person because you can't prioritize your finances to pay back the money you borrowed (for admitedly trivial items). No... I wouldn't say a bad person, but lazy? MOST DEFINATLEY!

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

This thread is about credit....not ethics and what people are aspiring to be. Credit is such an important part of American society and it doesn't have anything to do with being a single mom. As far as the care of your kids absorbing so much of your paycheck that you can't afford your rent, you need to find a cheeper place to live. If you can't do that, at least apply for government subsidies to take care of your children. If things are as bad as you've painted them, you definitley qualify. Could you imagine what would happen if EVERYBODY who qualified for welfare or any other government assitance filed Bankruptcy?

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Interesting. Back when I was having financial problems, I thought all the people who worked in collections departments were a bunch of unprofessional assholes. Later I thought I was being too hard on them, and perhaps they were only doing their jobs.

Now I see that my first gut reaction was probably correct. Too bad. It's a necessary job; I'd like to think that the people who do it are mature and sensitive and, well, grown-ups.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Oh, and as for "please judge everyone individually" then "all 22 year olds have never had to depend on only themselves".

Hmmmmm...... Can we say hypocrite?

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Now, now Beth. The same could be said for attorneys. Name calling isn't nice.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Also....a quick thought...How did "Experimental Surgeries" enter into the conversation? We were talking about neccesary surgery so that Michele's father could walk again..... [img]http://smilecwm.tripod.com/owen/newbie.gif[/img]

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Man, i just hope you never run into some surprise financial problems. I don't know if you'd know how to deal.

And er, i don't think that 22-year-old statement was meant as hypocritical. I think it was meant in the sense that not everyone who is 22 is in that boat, so you should not assume everyone with bad credit, large debts, and bankruptcy histories is the same. Situations vary.

Oh and one little side note: A single mother does not necessarily equal "tramp". A single mother can mean "divorced". It can mean "bad choices but good person". It can mean "Oh my god, even though i took all the precautions, i was in that minor percentage who got pregnant in spite of my birth control".

It is just so easy to be judgemental. I think it's a sad way to look at the world.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

interesting response kc -

it solidifies a first impression -

lets see - since a single mom has never been married - maybe i should rephrase that and give a clear history -

i dont know if you and chad seriously ascribe to all of your responses - but it seems u do -

i was speaking of a friend - who was financially responsible - went to college - did the things u r supposed to - got married - had a child - (IN THAT ORDER....) - it didnt work out - and a 5 yr old child of whom she is the sole supporter of...

cheaper place to live - ok - forego all concerns of safety in a neighborhood w/a young child, because obviously they are deadbeats and dont deserve anything better........

like i stated earlier - living on your own w/NO ONE to depend on but yourselves will give you a clearer objective.....

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I am not a deadbeat, KC. I will be paying my credit card debt in full.

I agree with what Beth said about collections departments--except I never thought they *might* be people just doing their jobs. I always realized they were clerks with power trips

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Well, speaking of suprise. Suprise, suprise! I'm covered for whatever life throws at me.

By the way who said tramp?

Putting words in people's mouths really doesn't help your point. Nice try though.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Uhm...Experimental surgeries to whom? That was the point..quotage: "not all surgeries are covered by all insurances - many surgeries that have been done routinely for years w/other insurances are considered experimental by medicaid - therefore NOT COVERED...."

Perhaps it would be best now if the mud-slinging from all parties stopped. Its getting stupid. I have always liked Beth's forums because you (usually) could express a different view *without* being jumped on and flamed for it. Please don't change that because its an issue you fancy yourself knowing a lot about. Logistics, legality, etc, maybe, but individual situations. Uh uh.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

5 year old child? Well here's an idea instead of spending all that money you quoted on day care.... How about elementary school?? Actually legally shouldn't the child be there anyway? If that were my friend I'd tell her to stop worying about credit cards and watch out for HRS.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I just wanted to comment on this so-called "account insurance" term that's being bandied about; specifically, the claim that people should never default on debts because they should all have account insurance on loans, etc. Whatever you collections folks are claiming, every legitimate financial advisor I have ever met or read states unequivocally that those insurance schemese are a complete rip-off. They're overpriced (mortgage insurance is more expensive for most people than buying a life insurance policy that would pay off the house and much, much more; credit card insurance is even worse), the terms are draconian, and insurers often don't pay. The only people they're recommended for are folks who are terminally ill, don't have any insurance yet, and can't get a new policy that would require a health exam.

Now, working people should have disability insurance (except for those poor, miserable souls that insurers won't touch with a 10-foot pole - and that's a policy I'd like to see reformed by Congressional fiat) and most people don't, even though it would provide enough money to pay things like debts AND health care bills AND living expenses in the case of a debilitating injury. However, given how poorly the option is advertised, I can't blame a damned soul for going bankrupt based on debts they acquired while receiving necessary health care. Especially if they're in that unfortunate class of people who can't buy it no matter how much they want it (e.g., construction workers). Blaming people for their injuries, accidents and poor health is just cruel.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I like this forum.... I think I'll become a regular fixture around here (that should piss some people off). Annita, you failed to address the subject of assistance programs designed to help people in your friend's situation. Hopefully, she was wise enough to seek them out, otherwise she made a poor deciscion. As far as cheaper housing being "unsafe"....I hear there is safety in numbers. Signed, Your local power tripping clerk.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Chad, If there was "safety in numbers", giant housing projects would be the safest place in town.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

I'm reluctant to move this topic from the always-riveting "Why don't I tell other people how I think they should live their lives?" thread and back to the original query. It's always so much better for the rest of us when we find out what we should have done in our own easily-generalizable situations.

But here I go, 'cause I have an unreasonable fixation on answering orginal questions.

Without getting into the sordid basics, by the time I had finished putting myself through six years of college and moved several times up and down one coast and across the country, I had some $45K in debt. This was June 1996.

I dug myself out of all of it by August 1999, because I was very, very lucky and had a few unexpected windfalls. I have to say, using those windfalls was a lot less glam than, say, going to Hawaii, but the peace of mind was worth it.

Weirdly enough, now that I'm debt-free, I'm much more careful with my money than I was back in the day. Perhaps writing "Sayonara, motherf***ers" on the memo lines of all the final checks I sent to assorted debtors got that immaturity imp out of my system.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

KC- children enter kindergarten based on when they turn 5 - if you turn 5 after the (arbitrary) cut off date, you must wait until the next school year.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

And most people can't raise a child on the number of work hours you can fit into a kindergartener's school day.

I'm glad our resident collection agents are having such a good time here, but as much as I enjoyed your initial input, at this point I really wish you'd buzz off. I know it's fun to decide you understand everything about someone else's situation, but when you don't even bother to read carefully (the "trivial expenses," you might have noted, were for emergency room visits and asthma medication), and when you're so quick to call other people "lazy" when it appears that your job consists of sitting around this forum calling other people names all day, your act gets tired pretty quickly.

In other words, we really don't need the nastiness. Why not save that for your clients?

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Did someone start lawyer-bashing again, already? Damn, people, I was only gone two hours.

BTW, Chad & K.C., thanks for taking on the role of pariah, which this forum has been missing for weeks. We (metaphorically) killed off the last two we had and it's good to see someone selflessly stepping in to fill the void. Here's a tip for you: get a hotmail account before people start e-mailing your employer (easily identifiable from your return addresses) and quoting some of the trash you've been talking. I'm just trying to protect your right to free speech. (You'll come to love lawyers, yet).

I'll check in in the morning and see how y'all are doing. Goodnight, now.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Good advice, Tom. I assume everyone here has already decided that they won't be applying for a loan from Capital City Bank in Florida/Georgia any time soon.

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Tom Dean for Class President!

-- Anonymous, June 21, 2000

Well I must admit, this is a most enjoyable debate! Although I can appreciate the comments of the two people in the "industry" I must take personal exception to their thoughts on bankruptcy. Although (IMHO) this step should only be used when all other less financially devastating options are exhausted, the step is there for a reason. Were it not a potential outcome, then why is it there? Personally, I'm getting married this Sat. (2nd time's a charm) and combined we have some $34K in CC debt. Using a product called "Debt Blaster" (who I am *not* affiliated with), we have created a schedule to be debt free within 33 months. As much as I leaned towards a CCCS resolution, the idea of paying someone to manage my debt was crazy once I found a tool to assist me. During this process, I've had a few high points: We started our process the first of this month. I've called all my creditors, and asked them to reduce my interest (which is avg. at 21%). Those who would not, were promptly told to cancel my account, and document it as closed upon my request. I actually managed to anger a few of them. Those who lowered my rate, and were cheerful (just one who met both criteria), I contacted their boss and thanked them for such a pleasant exchange. To recap, still over $33K in debt, but I now have 6-8 less "active" CCs. Still paying them off (and moving balances around), but now they know they'll never see me again. One last interesting note, if you pay your CCs on time, call your CC company every 6 months and ask for an even lower rate. I've reminders for new calls at the end of the year. And this tip was from someone who was dropping the % rate as we spoke on the phone. Potentially another 3-4% points down (currently at 14.99%, was 22.99%). Sorry so long, and good luck to my fellow "losers" ;) Charley

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I have to give a European perspective on this, I am from Greece where credit card use and consumer loans hadn't really taken off until the last couple of years. I have the added 'benefit' of having worked in a bank for 2 years (and incidentally left it for the mind numbing spirit crushing job that it was) so I have seen the sick reasoning behind pimping credit mostly to people unlikely to pay it off [whoever said that at the beginning of this thread finds me in complete agreement].

I thought for U.S citizens who have grown up with credit, and possibly have come into contact with some sort of credit management course things would be easier. I can see I was probably wrong about that though, all that easy credit coupled with the barrage of products/advertisements must make for a thorny path financially speaking.

Personally I try to avoid charging whenever possible, actually if it wasn't for the internet purchases I probably wouldn't need a CC at all, but I need to feed the global capitalist monster like the good little hypocrite that I am [I got an amazon-monkey on my back people it's pathetic].

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Re: other countries' perspectives, here in Finland all Visa cards have to be paid off each month, like American Express back home. OTOH, nobody seems to have any savings. The concept of separate savings and checking accounts doesn't exist, it's all one big pool. Bank accounts used to pay some very low rate of interest, like 1%, but the last time the banks merged and raised their rates to serve the public better, they cut out the interest.

Now, on another matter: the line about "leaving debt to someone when I die" scares me to death, since I'm an Adult Child of Creditholic. (Which is how I got to be so frightened of credit.) Can this really happen? Is there any way to prevent inheriting debts which would surely wipe out me and my only sibling (who has just finished law school and has his own issues)?

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

To pay in full or not to pay in full ... that is the question
I've always paid my balance in full on credit cards when I receive each month's statement. Yesterday, though, a friend told me that I will build better credit if I always leave $1 on there, unpaid. Something about they will see it as "paying back a debt" whereas when I pay the whole thing each month, they haven't really lent me money yet. Does anyone know anything about this?

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I really meant it when I said I like this forum, but I have to admit one thing. As fun as it has been to play the Devil's advocate, it's time for me to retire from this thread (keep applause to a minimum). Rest assured, though, that I will be back. Keep an eye out for me in the next couple of weeks and try not to throw too many tomatoes. Beth, Joy, Michele.... thanks for making this such a fun and interesting thread, see you next time.

P.S. K.C. says, "Peace Out".

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Trivial Info follows:

For those who may not know, in the US one cannot leave debts to another as one leaves property. The estate of a deceased person is legally responsible for paying all documented debts (except for Student Loans thru Sallie Mae - and I have it specifically stated in my final papers to NOT pay this- so HA!) If the estate cannot pay all debts, the lenders have no recourse. I even think spouses are not obligated on debts they are not a party too.

However, if you are a cosignor or joint on that debt and the other person on it with you dies or otherwise does not pay it off- then yes, it's all yours. So, be VERY careful when considering whether or not you will put your name on debts that other people accumulate. I have several female friends who are getting monthly reminders of why they should not have cosigned for their bad-debt-history EX- boyfriends.

Lastly, I thought I was the only person out there who knew everything and that no one else knew as much as I do. KC and chad have proved to me that there are other people in my world of obnoxious over- confidence. I'm starting to feel crowded ...

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

The "leave a dollar on your account" idea - don't do it! My old roomate worked with Visa one Xmas, and I learned from her that when it comes to credit reporting, there are only 3 options: paid in full (best), made a payment of at least the minimum. but did not pay in full(ok), and did not make minimum payment (bad). So, if your balance was $1000, and you paid $999 of it, you would have the same credit rating from them as a person who paid the 10% miminum payment.

And about the leaving debt? In Canada ( I don't know about the states, sorry, but it is likely similiar ), you cannot leave debt to your children, but, and this is huge, your executrix ends up in the position of having to auction off all of your goods to pay as much of the debt as possible, which means not only do you not leave your kids anything tangible, but even the sentimental stuff, like a mother's wedding ring, or Dad's favourite sweater has to be sold. Everything. I have been to these auctions, looking for antiques, and you see racks of clothes, right down to underwear, and the contents of junk drawers, and photo albums. Very sad.

As for inheriting debt from your spouse..yes, you do.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I had a student loan, to go to graduate school. When I entered (1969), I thought I was going to be in an accelerated PhD program, where you could get your degree in three years, get a teaching job, and begin to pay back your loan, at a professor's salary. The salary wasn't much, but neither was the loan. A couple one year ahead of me and Brenda, at FSU, did it, in sociology. A year later, at Tulane, in anthroplogy, the bottom fell out. Perhaps it was two years later. Nixon got in, cut the money to higher education off, you couldn't get a dissertation research grant, class sizes were smaller, the need for faculty was less great, and so forth. We still owed the money, but on a laborer's salary, not a college professor's.

Try getting a job wiping monkey poop off someone's boots when you have eight years of college and they will tell you you are overqualified, will say you won't get along with your co-workers, you will intimidate your boss, and you'll leave, when a better job comes along.

I paid my student loans back. It took me ten years. Working as a laborer and clerk. If I had been an aircraft company, and the government had reneged on its side of the bargain (I did everything I was supposed to) they'd have paid me reparations, for defaulting on their end of the bargain.

We had two kids with no, and practically no health insurance. Two friends loaned us the money to have them in a hospital. For all the hospital, the doctors, or my employers, when I was employed, cared, Brenda could have had them in the dirt.

I remember the bill collectors calling, at supper time, and hassling us, for years. I sent them what I could, and always paid loans off, sooner or later.

Our fortunes turned when (1) I inherited a house, and (2) my wife and I each got high-tech jobs, in telecommunications, and small, desktop computers, when those industries were looking for experienced writers and technical instructors, and couldn't find them, and promoted, from the ranks, or got them from outside, from free-lancers, experienced in other kinds of writing.

During the defense drawdown, I was out of work for several years, looking, desperately, for work, and in support groups with other people my age in the same boat. My wife was out of work, and took successively lower-paying jobs. I would have taken them, if I could get them. Indeed, I did take them, throwing packages in the hole at the Post Office for $6 an hour, over Christmas.

The bank threatened to foreclose, on our mortgage, then did. I had had good credit, and had borrowed money, from loan companies, by taking a second mortgage, and by running up the balances on our credit cards, to pay the mortgage.

You can't pay off debt by borrowing more money, at higher interest rates, I learned. Especially if you still don't get a job paying what you need to make your nut. Disaster cascades, and you get in so far the only way out is to take a bath, give yourself a clean slate, throw in the towel.

I was ashamed to welsh on the debts I freely made. Part of why I did it is the bill collectors wore me down, and pissed me off, so much I did it, in part, to stiff them. I was cutting off my nose to spite my face, but it was a satisfying feeling, briefly.

The easy way out is never the easy way. Usually, it's the hard way. In the long run, the hard way is the easy way.

When you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember your objective is to drain the swamp.

After we went belly up, we got a secured bank card, got better jobs, bought appliances on credit, at high interest rates, and gradually rebuilt our credit.

It took the economy improving to bail us out. We were making headway when something unforeseen happened, recently, and we are running the credit card balances back up.

High-tech jobs, they pay well, but they aren't secure. You need to put something aside for a rainy day.

And charge as little as you have to.

But when you have to, if you have the credit, in my experience, you will use it.

The mortgage I have now, I'm paying insurance against myself defaulting. It's pay that or rent. We pay.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I swear to god that I've already read that response from Jack. However, I skimmed the list here, and I don't see it. Am I imagining this, or was all of that information awfully familiar?

Personally, I just got my first credit card ever (26 y.o.) two weeks ago. I got my first bill yesterday ($21.50!), so maybe sometime soon I will have a credit history. I too was under the impression that carrying a small amount over is good for your credit rating (shows that you are a good investment and that you are responsible); I got the card for just such a reason. Is there a better way? I'm not worried about debt so much as the credit report.

Anyone with sterling credit have any ideas about how I should do this?

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I too was under the impression that carrying a small amount over is good for your credit rating

16 years ago, my wife and I bought our (first) home. We had no problems getting a mortgage loan and we both had always paid off credit card balances in full (and never had any other credit).

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Ok, I was going to be done with this topic, but I do have to add something here.

As for leaving a little bit on your credit card to build credit... Yes it's a good idea. I think whoever made the comment about there only being three options for credit companies to report to your credit bureau, was from Canada, and while that may be true there, it is certainly not true here.

Here's the way it works: Your credit bureau lists your debts (credit cards, loans, liens, collection history, charge offs, etc). Ok, say for example you put all of your gas on your credit card every month. Instead of paying it off every month, pay it all except 5 bucks. Then instead of saying paid in full on your credit bureau, it will show that you are making your payments in a timely manner.

See the reason this is so important, is that when you pay it in full each month, it will always report to the credit bureau as being paid in full. That's not good because when you go to get a car, mortgage or any other type of loan, they want to see that you can make payments in a timely and consistent manner. Paid in full? When was it paid in full? Who knows if this person has even used credit in a year.

Your credit bureau isn't really cut and dry, it shows many things about each account you have in your name. It will show the balance on the card, how long you've had the card, how many times you've been late making a payment, what months you were late with payments.

I would reccomend paying off almost everything you can each month, but keeping one major credit card that you pay off except for five dollars.

I think your credit is really important (everyone here seems to understand this). That's only one little trick you can use to make it stronger. But I would strongly suggest that everyone obtains a copy of their credit bureau at least every 6 months. Don't depend on other companies to make or break your credit. It's really up to you to shape it how you feel is right. And even if you've made some mistakes in the past, it's very easy to make those things dissapear.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

K.C., I can understand why never carrying a balance on your cards might make you unattractive to credit card companies, who only make money off of people who they can charge interest, but it doesn't make any sense that someone would be rejected for a mortgage on that basis.

I mean, by the time most of us get to the point in our lives where we're applying for mortgages, most of us have had credit cards for many years. If you've "paid in full" all your cards every month for ten years, doesn't that demonstrate some degree fiscal responsibility, even if this is the case because you've never used the cards? Apparently this was true for Dave and his wife (see his post above).

I, too, am one of those people who pays off my balance every month, and it hasn't been much of a problem for me. The only drawback is that my credit limit hasn't gone up much, but I addressed this problem by getting a second card for when I need to make a big purchase which might otherwise drive me over the limit.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

I can't imagine that you would get regected for a mortgage simply because you have a zero balance on all of your credit cards. I'm just saying that from my experience they like to se steady payments. What I'm really talking about here is how to achieve "perfect credit", although I really don't think such a thing actually exists. Most companies like to see consistant payments, it can mean a lower interest rate, or you could approved easier.

This is really important more than anything when you're trying to get an unsecured loan.

I know it really doesn't make sense, it is definatley more logical to think that a person who pays off their credit cards completley each month would be a better risk.

The main reason that this is true is that there is no way to tell (by looking at your credit bureau) whether you pay it off every month, or if you used it once and paid it once.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

The carrying a balance thing was actually an american Visa company - from where the 'never carry a balance' advice of mine comes from.

Here is why...your credit card is not a loan to carry a balance on. If you want to establish a good history of paying back money loaned in a timely manner, take a small loan out from a credit union.

If you have a credit card, you have a credit history. If you pay the balance off in full every month by the due date, you are demonstrating fiscal responsibility. This is what you want to be doing. When you leave a balance, no one other than that card carrier knows that it is a $1 - all they know is that you do not pay in full every month, and therefore may not be a good credit risk for things like car loans, etc.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Sorry Kristen, but that is incorrect.

I look at these credit bureaus every day, and believe me they do show the balance.

Also it absolutley helps build good credit to leave a small balance. Any financial expert will tell you the same thing. Whoever told you that there are only 3 options for credit reporting was also wrong. The only explanation I give you for whatever information you were given was that it was either incredibly outdated (10 or more years) or the person that gave it to you did not have any sort of grasp of the way the system works.

I also wish that you would not hand out second hand information from someone that spent a holiday working with Visa, to people who really are interested on building good credit.

FYI-Visa is only a name. All Visa does is sell it's name to banks to use on thier credit cards. You cannot get a Visa card without the name of a bank or some other institution on it. Visa is also not a credit reporting agency. The banks report to your credit, not Visa. The banks pay Visa only for the name and authorization rights that they have.

This being said I would be weary of anyone that claims they "work for Visa" and offer credit bureau advice, as the company does not deal in this at all.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

KC, all I can say is, your bank only makes money when customers leave a balance on their credit cards, right? And, as a collections official, you only make money on people who carry a balance and cannot pay it, right? Which makes me believe that you do not have the consumer's best interest in mind.

No financial advisor in their right mind would suggest that one incur a late penalty for leaving a $1 balance on a credit card. The first bit of advice I have ever gotten, or read, in regards to credit cards is pay them off in full, every month. Don't subject yourself to unneccesary interest or handling charges. Also, on many cards, if you do not pay the balance off in full for more than 3 months in a row, you may find your interest rate rising. Same thing if you carry a balance for more than 5 months out of 12 nonconsequentially, for my bank's credit card.

I would recommend though, that everyone get a hard copy of their credit report once a year and look it over. I was stunned to find a Blockbuster Video notation on mine (never had a video rental card, and I have never lived in the State the store was located in) for about $300 of lost movies. It is an eye opening experience to see, in black and white, what your credit rating is, and why it is.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Ahh, now I see the dispute. Kristin--I totally agree that the wisest present-tense financial move is to pay no interest (and therefore save that money). However, I am willing to spend a little money (a few bucks a month) to actually have a credit rating. I ordered a copy of my credit report from the three major credit tracking businesses a while back, and two of them hadn't even heard of me, despite years of reliable bill-paying and financial health. I couldn't even get a gas card, or a Target card, or anything--because I have no credit. I started to get panicked that at some point I will need to get a loan (for a car, house, whatever) and finally got my hands on a card. Due to my years of poverty and good parental models, I'm not worried about racking up too much debt (I even have to remind myself to use the credit card).

So I agree with both of you: I don't mind the price I pay for my credit history (if it is indeed necessary), but I think once it is established, such a practice would be wasteful.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

Kristen, You're right if all people were responsible with their credit, my job wouldn't exist. The reason however that I am so good at my job is because I really do like to help people get out of collections. I make it a point to do what I can to help those who want to be helped. I'm actually offended that you think that I don't have the consumer's best interest in mind, simply because I am a collector. I really don't think I could sleep at night if that were the case.

If you read my earlier posts, you would have seen that I too have been in debt (who hasn't). I was young, and always frightened of collectors. I am good at my job because I don't intimidate people. That's why I was stressing talking to your financial institutions if you need help. I have never turned away someone in debt trouble.

As for late fees occuring because you didn't pay the entire balance, that's absolutley not true. Late fees only occur when you don't pay at least the minimum payment (which is never the entire balance). The only charges that would occur would be the interest that will be calculated on the small sum (five bucks) that you left on the card. I'm talking about building credit here. Interest on five dollars is not going to be a lot. Yes, in a sense you have to pay for good credit, but the interest that you pay on that five dollars every month will certainly pay off when you get the lower interest rates for the really big stuff, like cars, and mortages.

After you've established credit, by all means pay the entire balance on your cards each month, more power to you!

It just really bothers me to see people getting the wrong credit information early on, and then paying for it later. I hear these myths coming out of my clients mouth every day, and I wonder where they come from. Please be sure about things before you give out credit information. It's something that stays with someone forever and is not to be taken lightly.

If you think that it's easier or more fun to not believe me because I work for a bank, you go right ahead. But what you're doing here is giving out the wrong information. You may think you're right, you may have the best intentions, but you're wrong. I wouldn't share any credit information if I didn't know these things for a fact. I know these things for a fact! Please stop filling people's minds with what you've heard or what you think. It's really not fair.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

On my credit card, if you don't pay the balance in full, you don't pay finance charges, but you do pay interest on the unpaid balance AND on every subsequent purchase beginning the day you charge it. This happened to me once when I accidentally wrote a check for XX.01 rather than XX.10, and I had to spend a long time on the phone to get them to take it off. (This has been true for every card I've had, and I've gone through about five sequentially.) Sure, if you're not going to charge anything the next month you're fine, but otherwise you're paying a lot for a credit record. A better bet would be the earlier suggestion to take out a bank loan with low interest and pay it off steadily.

-- Anonymous, June 22, 2000

KC: I think people [on this thread] might question your word because of the attitude you repeatedly expressed--calling people irresponsible, lazy, etc.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

Well I guess it would be nice to take out a small loan to establish credit. Oh but wait, the problem now is that you have to have credit history before a bank will give you an unsecured loan, so you can just dump that idea right in the toilet.

The interest that you would be on five dollars a month (no matter what company your card's with) would never be more than $.25 per month (a hefty fee?). Trust me that twenty five cents permonth will save you thousands later when you get a lower interst rate on your house or car.

If you don't want to beleive me because I think filing bankruptcy shows lack of charecter. OK, don't believe me. How my opinion about bankruptcy says anything about my knowledge of credit is beyound me. A more logical answer would be that because I'm so against filing bankruptcy I might want to help people understand the importance of good credit, but I mean, hey, that's just the logical answer.

Almost all credit cards (all that I've ever worked with), have a 30 day grace period for interest on purchases. You buy something you won't pay interest unless you don't make a payment within in 30 days which you should be doing. Paying the balance except for five dollars every 30 days (hence only being charged interest on five dollars).

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

Hmmm...

"Grace period for repayment of balances for purchases You have not less than 25 days to pay the entire balance on purchases before a finance charge will be assessed.

Method of computing finance charge Finance charge computed on average daily balance (including new purchases).

Minimum Finance Charge Your minimum finance charge is $0.50. "

Source - Capital City Bank

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

That's right, ok 25 days (after you receive your statement) which is more than 30 days after purchase before finance charges start occurring. Finance charges calculated daily (see before mentioned grace period).

Is there a point somewhere in that little run down?

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

How stupid is someone to post nasty comments on a weblog using their full name and company email address? Shouldn't you people be working? What are you doing surfing the net and posting immature comments on company time? I think Capital City Bank's Human Resources department would like to hear about this...oops...I think they already have. Looks like there may be a couple job openings available soon. Anyone interested?

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000

No, thanks Ranter. I've never met anyone low enough to take on a job in collections. Those people are the bottom-feeders of this Earth. And what's with the Napolean complex? K.C. has the answers to everything. Need info? Check out the Encyclopedia of K.C. Got internet access? Don't go to www.askjeeves.com, go to www.askkc.com. She'll tell you what you need to know, and as a bonus you'll get a little lashing of judgmental condescendence. Makes you wonder what kind of sad existence she has outside of the workplace. I bet she plays SimCity 3000 just to make her townsfolk suffer and cry. She's probably the type that hands out crappy fruit to all the kids during Halloween then giggles when she sees their looks of disappointment. She seems like the kind of person who kicks puppies and kitties when no one is looking. Oops...am I being judgmental? Didn't mean to pull a K.C.

-- Anonymous, June 23, 2000