People would you please let Y2K fall by the wayside for a while..surely there are other subjects to discuss...politics, the upcoming barrage of political campaign commercials/spin..Gore/Bush jokes anything, but haven't you all beat the Y2K horse to death yet?

-- justalurker (tired of seeing thebeating of the@deadhorse.com), June 21, 2000

Answers

The people who were most wrong about Y2k from the Doomers to the Pros preying on the un-educated would most LOVE to see everyone "forget" about Y2k. Then they can try to continue the Historical Revisionism we continue to see here and elsewhere.

That way any questions about their ability to analyze facts and their errors in judgement (a matter of public record forever thanks to the Internet) can be swept under their carpets.

ACADEMIA also is not about ready to allow that to happen. And the goal of Historians is to learn from errors made.

-- cpr (buytexas@swbell.net), June 21, 2000.

.....and the goal of cpr is to try to stretch his 15 minutes into at least a half-hour...

-- I'm Here, I'm There (I'm Everywhere@so.beware), June 21, 2000.

It's interesting to see so many people who want the Y2K issue to disappear from this forum. Why? From the words of the doomers themselves, they said that they would be. . .

Glad to be Wrong

Just check out the thread appropriately titled Glad to be Wrong and you'll see quotes like:

So, to the Pollys of the world, I say I will be glad to be wrong!

-- No Polly (nopolly@hotmail.com), December 16, 1999

and

DOUBLE DITTO'S

I tell everyone that I would love to spend next year apologizing for frightening them so badly.

-- woody (woody11420@aol.com), December 16, 1999.

Gosh, what ever happened to "woody." Do you think he's spending the year apologizing for frightening people so badly? Or do you think he's telling people to "get over it already?"

Some more quotes can be found here from "Susan Barrett" and "Ford Prefect" who would both LOVE to be wrong.

Or how about this amazing post in which we read:

I'm a doomer. I want to be wrong about the infrastructure. I want to be very wrong.

Three weeks from today, if I am, I will re-post this very heading using my real name.

I pray I have that opportunity.

Best Wishes,

Someone Some Once Knew -- Someone Some Once Knew (someone@once.com), December 11, 1999

I don't know. Did any of you see someone repost this with their real name? I would think someone would have noticed it, especially since he wasn't the only one:

Add me to the list of folks who will be THRILLED to say I WAS WRONG on this forum, posting my entire name, city and state! I would be tickled pink to say that!

I really really really really really really want to be wrong on this. I do.

-- preparing (preparing@home.com), December 11, 1999.

Well, "preparing," you really really really really really really were wrong on this. Really. Never caught your name, though. Funny, that.

Here's another thread about "Preparing to Be Wrong" with another doomer (Irving) saying how he'd love to be wrong. Perhaps he's loving it right now.

Looking at it from the other side, here's an incorrect polly predictionabout doomers going nuts when nothing happens. Sorry, pollies who thought that were clearly wrong. You do see quite a few doomers who will be glad to be wrong, though. Even Sysman says he'll be happier than a pig in, well, you know.

We'll finish up with a post by Michael Hyatt himself entitled What if I am wrong about Y2K? Of course he'll be happy to be wrong about Y2K. Who wouldn't be?

So what am I saying with all this long-winded BS?? Well, you should be happy that you were wrong! Rejoice!! The world did not end! Mass rioting did not occur!! You didn't have to drink dog piss from a rusty hubcap or shovel lime on the hastily-dug, shallow graves of the corpses of your children!! You don't have to defend your perimeter or kill starving pollies!! Yay!

You and your family are alive and, most likely, in pretty much the same shape you were in before the rollover. Isn't that grand?? A few months ago, many would clearly be thrilled if the worst they had to encounter on a daily basis was "Quotably Quoted" or a CPR rant. How can that compare to watching your children starve or the cities burn?

So, hey, relax and enjoy yourself. After all, it could have been worse, couldn't it?

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 21, 2000.

Ok cpr I'll accept your premise, but what the hell audience do you think you're preaching to here? Can only surmise you spread your gospel in many fora cause if this is it......well, obsessive comes to mind. Do better my friend. There never was a great hoard to save, never a nation to save. Your patriotism and intellect would serve better focused elsewhere. Honest.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 21, 2000.

I'm sick of listening to CPR whine on about people who still owe him an apology from like six months ago. People who are long gone from here. When this forum first started, everyone was high on forgive and forget, and let's see what else we can talk about. What things do we have in commen and what else can we enjoy debating? And it was working. But these past few days...sheesh. Andy Ray and CPR on a Y2K kick from hell. I wasn't even a doomer, and I'm sick of it. And I know..I'll just leave, and then I wont have to hear it anymore, and thats what I'll do. But before I go...Just had to say to those who were able to rise above it...I love you all. Bye.

-- kritter (kritter@adelphia.net), June 21, 2000.

Gonna miss ya krit but understand.

-- Carlos (riffraff@cybertime.net), June 21, 2000.

Hey Quitter, door, ass, well...you know the rest.

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 21, 2000.

Carlos,

You my friend MUST be a *professional* thief! Cause you just took that thought right off the top of my head ; )

justalurker,

Maybe it really is coming down to opening up a non-y2k BB,call it what you will,anything except TB2K anything.Most people here no matter what side of the fence they were on are bored shitless over damn near anything y2k,there is a whole world happening out there and to all of us personally.The past is just that and it grows dimmer by the day.

-- capnfun (capnfun1@excite.com), June 21, 2000.

Think I'll stick around just to bug the boys.Give 'em a blank post just so they'll know that their post was read but wasn't worth answering.

-- Sam (Wtrmkr52@aol.com), June 21, 2000.

Capn--

I totally agree. That is why I think we should change the name of this forum.

cpr is a hugely bright fellow. I think in time his maunderings on y2k will bore him out of his own tree. It would be interesting to read his views on something else; anything else.

I have less hope for Andy Ray. He seems permanently stuck in his own creme-de-la-meme.

-- Lars (lars@indy.net), June 22, 2000.

I too am sick of hearing old news about Y2K. I was wrong, wrong, wrong, and I have the rice and beans to prove it, and I'm mortified that I fell for such stupid shit. Do I want to continue thinking it's still going to happen??? That it just might begin any day now??? Hell no!

Let's talk about anything but Y2K.

-- gilda (jess@listbot.com), June 22, 2000.

Good one Ra -- see you are in rare form still :-) You know, what is the tie that binds us all here if not Y2k? Why was this board started other than to end the abuse of control freaks -- censorship --my way or the highway mentality? When Y2k is discussed here, I don't get the impression that it is a polly nyah nyah fest, but rather a "let's not forget" so it won't happen again.

The great thing about this place is, the little guy with a differing opinion doesn't get squashed by the masses. His voice is heard. Not deleted -- maybe flamed!

There are several LUSENET boards that you can discuss wutt-ever, but they are lame and lack a readership. Pick any topic -- they are there.

Without that tie that binds us all, there would be NO COMMUNITY. Yeah we might be sick of hearing about it. Maybe it is too much of a reminder of our foolishness that we really can't face. I know I cringe when I read posts from the old forumn and how CONVINCING they became through repetition.

Some ppl may be talked out, but others may not. If you don't think lives were DEVASTATED by all this, you are short sighted. (I'm not talking to anyone in particular -- just in general)

CPR, AR, etc. are not preaching to the choir. I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers. Y2k was a historical HOAX. Talk about other topics if you want, but don't silence those that will never let it happen again.

I thank gawd for those ppl. Anal or not :-)

-- (doomerstomper@usa.net), June 22, 2000.

Y2k was a historical HOAX.

A hoax concocted by whom?

Perhaps you didn't see the final report of Koskinen's group.

http://www.y2k.gov/docs/LASTREP3.htm

In the weeks since the rollover, some have expressed doubt about the magnitude of the Y2K problem and whether or not the significant investment of time and money to avoid disruptions was necessary. However, it has been difficult to find executives who worked on Y2K in a major bank, financial institution, telephone company, electric power company or airline who believe that they did not confront -- and avoid -- a major risk of systemic failure.

-- This was (not@a.hoax), June 23, 2000.

Newsflash for Hoax doubter...good one too, you are correct, Y2k is real, and GROWING!!!!! Problem you have now though, is who gives a crap? Surely not all the Y2k websites who were taking you for a ride the last 2 years and have now disappeared, right at the time the glitches are growing!!!!and you thought they actually had Y2k information? pleeeze. http://www.usa.capgemini.com/news/pr99.asp?id=115
On a less encouraging note, the percentage of large companies having experienced a Year 2000-related failure rose from 82 percent to 88 percent since September. The source of Year 2000 failures has shifted over the past three months. In September, a higher percentage of respondents reported failures in systems that had not yet undergone Y2K upgrades (56 percent) versus failures occurring in systems that had already been through Year 2000 remediation (41 percent). The current survey finds that the percentage of respondents experiencing failures in pre-upgrade systems decreased to 44 percent, while the percentage reporting failures in systems already upgraded for Year 2000 reached 59 percent. So much for all that work. But we must fix!!!get compliant!!!!!test- test-test!!!!or else. Or else what???? Even CapGemini gave up surveying(this one here is their last from Dec21,1999), as who is left to convince now? who doesn't GI? They did the work, created MORE issues, have piles of growing glitches to show for it, you would think they would be deludged in work, WHY NOT? Well you can fool some- some of the time, but not many ALL the time. They didn't call this card "Y2k" for nuttin, memeber knucklehead? Truth is, the work, the NOISE from the Hellers, Ed Yourdon's, Koskinens and all the other hucksters and blind fools,,,,INCREASED RISK. How does one know this completely??? where are all the problems from those who did not lift a single finger? Those who fix Y2k(and have been for 3 decades)as they do most other computing issues, as they happen FOF. Let me say that again, since many here have not the foggiest clue why some here continue pressing this issue....Y2k NOISE...increased risk. And if you think for one momento, guys like Heller, Hamasaki, and Yourdon do not understand the work as advertised would create more risk that it preported to address, you need to rethink your position. Yourdon is a classic huckster, a true monument to skulldredgery, the Death March joker. Here is a guy who wrote the book on winging it, publically broadcasting nobody would finish Y2k using standards he himself renounced years earlier. The man is an outright _____fill-in-the-blank. This Y2k deal was/is far more complicated than stocking up toilet paper I assure you, you been done real good folks. Am I saying none of the Y2k remediation was necessary? course not and was done long before the noisemakers appeared in many cases. Has it mitigated impact, course and would have been done, as it was, without all the lunatics warning of digital collapse. The alarmists created risk, hysteria, shortcuts, they ADDED risk. Even with this added nonsense, we have not a single solitary Y2k induced incident worthy of anybodys interest beyond the parties DIRECTLY affected. Why? because Y2k as KNOWN by many, was a HOAX, a RUSE, a SCAM. It was not a common_mode_failure waiting to happen. The skids are not even close to greased enough to allow a dumb dating issue to run ruin over any area of size. The issue was always connected risk, it was trivial. This was a KNOWN, long before 2000 and by January 3rd 1999 a given that Y2k would NOT be anything requiring a Koskinen effort at wasting your tax dollars further. BTW, Y2k the computer issue is NOT over, it is ongoing. The Millennium fixation is what died.

-- who cares read (nomail@all.net), June 23, 2000.

a Blast from the past when Ed Yourdon, using the phrase coined from his right- wing extremist pal Steve+Heller,,,the "Iron Triangle". Read as Ed lays out the bullcockey using the lines-of-code crap. Watch as Ed contradicts himself from "good enough" Death March fame, to here "it must be fixed or else" Y2k fud profiteer.

Ed Yourdon, what a peice of work, amazing. This is a guy who sat his fatass down in front of the US Senate and laid turds about mobilizing the public.

In the animal kingdom,,,showing teeth is viewed as a threat. In the human world showing teeth is viewed as a gesture of goodwill. No difference really, humans just are a tad confused is all. Humans love the smiling lying scumbags. The one's who write with violins playing and stroke their dumbass eggshell egos. Ed Yourdon has excelled in this disgusting behavior, in this link you see the mustard fall off the HotDog a bit revealing the true Ed. A vile man this Edward Yourdon.

http://stand77.c om/wwwboard/messages/1411.html

-- duhiwonder (nomail@all.net), June 23, 2000.

Evolution: any process or formation of growth

Gentlemen such as cpr are not finished with all that was Y2k. It is a teaching tool for them, that they may impress upon others the errors of the doomer thought process. One must READ his post's in order to receive his message. I do not read cpr's posts. I didn't in 1999 either. How simple it is to pick & choose reading material!

Kritter, I understand your frustration. There is opportunity to undergo personal evolution every second of the day. Small steps. Perhaps you will look at a cpr post one day - just a glance at the signature - & thank him inwardly for helping you to learn discrimination. I know I have.

Just something to ponder. See you elsewhere K.

Best,

-- Bingo1 (howe9@shentel.net), June 23, 2000.

kritter,

Why couldn't you stick around and just skip through the upsetting stuff? You know, there's lots of cool things going on here too.

-- eve (eve_rebekah@yahoo.com), June 23, 2000.

It amazes me how people want to just "get over" y2k, and insist that the realists close their mouths and stop running their keyboards.

Yet last year these same people (no doubt under different handles) were either silent during attacks on realists, or they participated in the attacks themselves! When they were told to "get on with life, nothing bad is going to happen to you" or "the y2k fear leaders just want your money" the flame wars and name-calling began!

Go read the thread that is posted above (Any rage among doomers?) Count the attacks and veiled (and NOT SO veiled) threats on "pollys". Where were these people who now want it all to "just go away"?

Face it people....the realists put up with a ton of sh*t last year from kooks who were convinved the damn world was going to end....and now you want them to just walk away. Bull.

-- can't believe (what@i'm.reading), June 23, 2000.

Doomerstomper - my sentiments too. Some of my actions due to Y2k fear had legal consequences (damaging only to myself) which go far beyond just "getting over a false fear." ... I'm talked out when I'm talked out. Getting there, but not there.

To this was (not@a.hoax):

It's the government's job to be prudent and protective towards the populace which it governs. (This is a non-cynical view about a legitimate function of government.) They did read correctly that big bucks were being spent on Y2k remediation which was going on at major companies, you are correct. The part which they misread is the ASSUMPTION about the grave dangers that Y2k remediation was forestalling. Gov't didn't KNOW, they listened to what they were told by "advisors". So they did the prudent thing and took precautions and stated warnings. At another level of not-knowing, what they didn't know that they didn't know is that the stakes and the risk were overstated to begin with.

It is clearer in hindsight of course, but the actual dangers of non-remediation were never so grave as made out that they would be, I conclude this since some but by no means all of the work got done and Y2k was SUCH a non-event.

There are other arguments too, such as that it's completely non-intuitive to believe that our infrastructure is so fragile in the face of a computer glitch, remediation or no. (It still makes me wonder, what would have happened if NO remediation were done? I tend to think that quite a few spectacular problems would have made the news here and there but without the "cascading failures" as depicted in the fear scenarios - and without the "cascading failure" theory there would have been little market for the Y2k Hype. -which makes me laugh because if anyone now is still watching for Y2k bugs, why are they? It's cascading failures they oughta be looking for, to stick true to their theory. Glitches without cascading failures only go to prove the opposite of what the whole hysteria was all about!)

But I'm getting off subject. The point is here, I'm trying to dispel this argument-from-authority. This is the argument that clinched Y2k fear for me too. It IS very compelling.

I still have to smack myself upside the head. How could such authoritative people (industry leaders, highly-paid consultants) have said such things if they are not quite so? The answer exploits the gray area between "hoax" and "real issue." Can you say "money-making opportunity"? The government took the prudent position with the information which it had, assuming that it could not have had better (which is another topic).

So I think of it this way, with this old standby, revised:

Two old friends meet up on the street. Friend #1 is walking down the street shouting and waving his hands about.

Friend #2: Are you sure you're ok man? What are you doing that for?

Friend #1: Of course I'm ok. I'm scaring off the pink elephants and the glorblethwonks!

Friend #2: I don't see any pink elephants or glorblethwonks!

Friend #1: Well then, see? it works, doesn't it!

Friend #2: Hmmmm. I know what a pink elephant is, but what the heck is a glorblethwonk?? Maybe just to be on the safe side... [joins him in shouting and waving about]

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), June 23, 2000.

The government took the prudent position with the information which it had, assuming that it could not have had better (which is another topic).

That's what I did too. So why isn't everyone screaming at the government rather than (or in addition to) me? One difference, of course, is that I did it with my own money, not someone else's. But surely that doesn't make me more culpable than the government!

-- Steve Heller (steve@steveheller.com), June 23, 2000.

God Almighty, what a journey, I rode the Roller Coaster, in order to offer prospective, I harbored food and water, it was a hard journey, the hardest task I have been called to do. Given situation again, I would not change one action. One Hardhead.

-- My Story (and@i'msticking.com), June 23, 2000.

So why isn't everyone screaming at the government rather than (or in addition to) me?

Perhaps it is due to the difference between the government's official position of "3-day storm" preparation and this:

I'm trying to arrange for a machinist to live near me, so I'll have his services after the big crash. He and others who know how to build machines are going to be sorely needed to restart civilization.

-- Steve Heller (stheller@koyote.com), June 25, 1999.

-- (hmm@hmm.hmm), June 24, 2000.

why isn't everyone screaming at the government rather than (or in addition to) me?

Helter,

It's the government's job to do these things - sometimes they're correct, sometimes they're not. People are upset with you because you claimed to have "expert knowledge" of the subject of computer systems, and you were wrong about Y2k. They spent money and time they did not have to spare preparing for something for which they need not ever have prepared. Becuase of your words, partially, and those who echoed your sentiments and experience and modus operandi ("See my resume? How can I be wrong about this?")

You were wrong Helter, and CPR was correct, along with quite a few pollies.

And you're going to continue to read about here as long as this board exists.

For those who would like to see Y2k "go away," it will never go away here. I promise.

Vindicated Regards,
Andy Ray

-- Andy Ray (andyman633@hotmail.com), June 24, 2000.

Thanks Andy, that says it all!!!!!

-- Ra (tion@l.1), June 24, 2000.

Steve, you asked me: (Many good answers from others)

why isn't everyone screaming at the government rather than (or in addition to) me?

What you do and think (moving to the country and preparing to live off the grid) is your own business. You enjoyed and could afford this. By your own standards you behaved prudently; you have only yourself and family to answer to about that.

I don't give "stock tips" to anyone, knowing that I am, to a degree, accountable even if someone IS stupid enough to take my advice. That's because of the difference between what I do and what I say. When I say it, it's out there for public consumption. You're on record with 2.5 years of scare tactics and unverified assertions about Y2k. I know the justification for saying this kind of stuff all too well (i.e., "I'm just being helpful; would you rather be wrong, or dead?") because I bought into it. (mental note to self: funny how I didn't want to scare others about Y2k but felt it OK for others to use the tactic on me.)

But no matter how much self-responsibility you believe in (as do I), if you'd like to wave away everything you said on some basis that you just meant well to get people to prepare, you just can't do it, because it's out there, and well-meaning errors have consequences too. The government for all their stumbling all over themselves about how to handle y2k, knew how important it was that they SAY the right thing: whatever the warning, not to cause public panic either (no, I didn't always think so but in hindsight it's apparent), and that is the difference.

(uh, Switching tracks, changing directions? Hijacked again, I'm afraid. Better luck next thread!)

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), June 24, 2000.