Why Do you carry those Statues?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
I come from a different religion. The Bible (as I understand) speaks of having no Graven Image. So why do you tout those Graven Images in parades, etc. The Bible ( as I understand it, says we shall go to Jesus, and he will intercede with the Father. So I must ask you, how can you give omage to a "Hail Mary?" I am perplexed, and wrestling.
-- Hail Mary (andIdon't@understand.com), June 23, 2000
Dear Perplexed Hail Mary,You've come to the right place. Since you are perplexed and wrestling, you are not prejudiced yet, or narrow-minded. You say you have a different religion. Is that so?
There was one religion to start off. It was the Church founded by Christ, with His holy Apostles as its original missionaries. In a few years it had spread to all the world. This at the time was the Roman world, the Empire. No other religion anywhere proclaimed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No Bible existed at that time. The gospels as we know them were in the possession of this Christian community. But they weren't written down till many years later. The Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ was mostly proclaimed orally-- in words.
Later on, the Emperor Constantine was converted to this ''new'' religion; the same one you and I believe in. Since the Roman Empire was under the obligation to follow their emperor's lead, all of Rome became Christian officially. The Church was legal and became the official religion. It was as we all know, the Catholic Church; the Church of the Holy Apostles. From there it was headed by the bishop of Rome; the lawful successor of Saint Peter, who was its first bishop. Remember, if it was ever otherwise, there would be ample evidence to thwe contrary. But there isn't. In fact, the city of Rome has a network of catacombs beneath it, all evidence of a Christian community in hiding; before Constantine. The Catholic Church in its original organization was an outlawed church; until it emerged in the reign of Constantine.
For 15 centuries afterward, no other church proclaimed Jesus Christ, at least in the western world. The east is another story. It became separate from Rome later on.
Your religion is the Christian religion (if you are baptized) -- but it is separated too, from its mother church the Roman Catholic Church. You won't be able to trace your church's origins back too many years before you meet with the Church which gave you religion in the first place. The Church of Rome. It also gave the world, and you-- the Holy Bible.
Before we proceed into the matter of ''statues'' and ''idols'', -- those things that so many protestants can't stand; get a hold on the things I have just explained to you. Think about them and investigate the history books; to see if I was telling the truth. I hope you'll be fair and open-minded. Then, come back and let's discuss ''statues'', and what they mean. You don't have to agree with everything. Just give a Catholic a chance. And remember-- the scribes and the Pharisees never gave Jesus a chance. They just hated Him.
-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), June 24, 2000.
Hail Mary: Read your Bible carefully. Did the people of Israel carry the Ark of the Covenant in many instances to bless, protect the people from evil, help them in their battles, etc . etc. Did the Ark have two statues of Angels on its cover? Why should the chosen people carry the Ark around if it had two Angels on top? Who danced before the Ark? Why? Did the Temple built by Solomon have two large Statues of Angels at the entrance?. Remember it was built following Yahweh's order and plans. And ALL THIS after the commandment in Exodus!!!! Makes you think, doesn't it?Enrique
-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 24, 2000.
What everyone has said so far is very helpful and true. One thing has to be made clear. When Jesus came into the human world. He made Himself known to us in a very concrete, intimate way. He became like us. He instituted many concrete things to help us know Him better. He was no longer abstract, He was with us. He is still with us today as he wanted to be. He is with us in the Eucharist. He wants us to see Him in the Bread and Wine. We have Eucharistic adoration. Jesus is there. We also have water in Holy Baptism. We have all of these tangible things to let us know that God is with us. The Eucharist is closely related to the Blessed Virgin, Mother of God. She was the source of Jesus humanity. It was this humanity that brought us the combining of the earthly and the heavenly. God used her as the bridge between heaven and earth. God chose to do it this way. Remember when Eve gave humanity the forbidden fruit to eat and we all died? This time Mary, the New Eve gave us the Body of Christ, the Eucharist and gave it to humanity to live. Anytime anyone receives the Eucharist they can truly say, the woman gave and I did eat. Mary carried Jesus and when she died, she did not allow her body to become dust, He instaed took the Mother He loved in His arms and carried her with Him to heaven. There she continues her role He ordained at Cana to be the one to ask Jesus to help the servers and she still says, Do whatever he tells you. She is directly involved with history salvation and we honor her as God intends. More on the images later.
-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), June 24, 2000.
Dear Pamela- I like what you wrote here on Mary the Mother of God so much. So nicely said. So beautifil. Thanks!Jane
-- Jane Ulrich (carlos.eire@yale.edu), June 24, 2000.
Pamela: Since the time I found this forum and began participating in it I felt and still feel that many of the persons involved are my friends. I remember Chris, David Palm, Bro. Rich (wish he were back from time to time), Jean B., Atila, Ellen, and so many others. That's why I'm glad when someone comes back like you. We might feel disappointed when people seem not to listen or seem to misinterpret what we say, but in the long run our words may carry a message to someone who needs it. In other words, happy to hear from you again, Pamela. I wish Jackiea would be back also. She helped us to sit down and reflect about our faith.Enrique
-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), June 25, 2000.
The questions posed by ''Hail Mary and I don't @ understand'' aren't new. I've come to consider the ''statues'' objection by protestants irradicable and obstinate.In a short discussion with a park preacher (We've all seen them), I had to defend the fact I was wearing a religious medal on a chain around my neck. I was told emphatically, ''That's a graven image; you break the commandment of God!''
My worst impression, God forgive me is; HOW do you penetrate this ignorance? I tried to explain, when we salute the flag, we make our allegiance with what the flag stands for; when we have a photo in our wallet of our wife, we know it isn't our wife at all, just an image; when the statue of a saint, or the Sacred Heart is present in our church or home, it's an image, meant to remind us of that person, or Jesus.
But I had an otherwise sweet and charitable black man say to me: ''I like Catholics, but-- I can't abide them bowing to idols.'' He repeated, ''They are idols, nobody can tell me they ain't!''
My conclusion is, these are stereotypical arguments held for centuries against Catholics. To overcome them we'd have to undo the entire teachings of a lifetime for some. The ministers of these various protestant sects have drummed it into their faithful, ''There's some who call themselves Christians (meaning Roman Catholics) who actually worship idols! Gr-r-r-r!'' --I have seen a TV evangelist, in a thousand-dollar suit, blow-dried hair; bible waving in the air, say exactly that to his national audience!
What chance is there we could ever overcome that kind of blatant lie?
For starters, let's say to YOU, Hail Mary, andIdon'tunderstand-- Christ sits at the right hand of the Eternal Father in heaven. Catholics don't think He's present in a stone or plaster image! We have no affection for the stone, the plaster! Seriously, anyone that believes that is unfair.
For instance; if my child were inside a burning building, I would go right in, at the risk of death, to bring him out. But if all there was inside the house was a beautiful oil portrait of the child, I wouldn't even think about going in! Same thing if the church caught fire. I would hardly care if all the statues were destroyed. You can always get another statue, no matter how beautiful.
-- Eugene Chavez (rechavez@popmail.ucsd.edu), June 25, 2000.
Eugene, That was nice of you to say you wished I would come back. Truth is, I never really left this board. I've been "lurking". I said on a different thread that I would not post here anymore unless it was Catholic related. As I was taken to task for doing otherwise. I feel as if I've made friends here and I do miss you all. But I have a few reasons for not posting. I won't go into all the details, as it's really not pertinent. Do you remember when I was at a crossroads a while back? Well, I thought I had found my way back. But the truth is, I feel further away now than I did before. It seems as if...always has really...that whenever something good happens to me, something bad immediately happens to take it away. And it isn't just me. It's people I come in contact with. Be it on the internet or in everyday life. I suppose I have taken this as some sort of sign from God. No, I probably shouldn't. But when it happens at the frequency that it is....well, it's hard to deny it. I really can't explain all of it and I won't bore all of you with the details of my personal life. Just, thank you, Eugene for thinking of me. It's nice to know someone does. And know that just because you can't "see" me, doesn't mean I'm not here. :) You take care.
-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), June 25, 2000.
It is nice to be back! Thank you for your kind words.
-- Pamela (Rosylace@aol.com), June 26, 2000.
The simple answer: we don't worship the statue. And unless you are considering a Crucifix a "statue," we don't even worship those represented by the statues. therein lies the difference.
-- anthony (antaine@aol.com), January 17, 2001.