how long will it be until only small farmers and countrysiders will have pure food ? i have had my farm 260 a c. over 20 years still only produce one half of our own food mainly veg, beef raised 100 head ewes till i coudn"t take care of that many at my age. someone on this foram asked how many ewes to the ac. i did well on 24 ac.by much roating of fields and electric austrailan fence.thanks for all reply"s don

-- don summers (doningrant@webtv.net), July 10, 2000

Answers

Response to how long?

Don:

I guess I'm going to have to pull a Clintonism (if nothing else he introducted a new word into the American language) and question what you mean by 'pure' food. Chemical free? I suspect most small farmers and homesteaders use garden chemicals and insecticides, and probably even herbicides. Commerical fertilizer free? Here again I suspect most use them. There is a federal standard for acceptable insect parts per million, but who is to say the typical homesteader doesn't exceed the federal standard. Does that flour used to make 'homemade' bread contain any weevils or their eggs or larva? Who is to say canning in the country kitchen is any more sanitary than in food factories? If you slaughter a steer for beef on the homestead, are the sanitary conditions any better than in a federally inspected slaughterhouse? Likely not. If you want 100%, guaranteed, 'pure' food, you will likely be paying $10 for a can of peas and more than that for a gallon of milk. There is a trade-off. What is acceptable for one person probably isn't to the next one. For most things it is probably like someone peeing in a large river. It becomes so diluted it doesn't make any difference. My opinion only. Others can wade in.

-- Ken Scharabok (scharabo@aol.com), July 10, 2000.

Response to how long?

Well, here is one homesteader who doesn't use chemicals and commercial fertilizers on her crops. Food may never be pure, because nothing is pure when it comes to germs, but food can and should be pesticide, and fertilizer, and even medicine free as much as possible. Chickens and other animals shouldn't be fed oodles of antibiotics as their appetizer everyday. When absolutely needed, medicine should be used as judiciously as possible. I should also add it should also be used only when other options have been investigated and found lacking. I disagree with the idea that this forces prices too high. What it does is bring farm acreages back down to workable levels and encourages people to get back onto the farm. If crops are more labor intensive, then farms begin to be what they were before 1930. In my opinion, this can be accomplished without raising the price of food significantly over time. Heck before the twenties and thirties it was accomplished. Just because we have technology doesn't mean it necessarily should be used. Pesticides, herbicides, and commercial fertilizers do nothing but strip the land. Good organic growing habits build the soil and protect it for future generations. It also contributes to the overall productivity of the land. Everytime pests are killed by pesticides, all of the good bugs that protect the plants are also killed. In addition, the real source of the problem with the plant is ignored, which is malnutrition or stress from another source. Healthy plants are just not generally attacked by pests. Pesticide use is a bandaid that is like a dependence on heroin. In order to control pests you use chemicals, but in using them you guarantee you will need them again. In addition, when farmers get good crops with commercial fertilizer they also tend to skimp on soil maintainance. This leads to the overall fertility of the land being reduced. This isn't good for the farmer, because land that should continue to produce crops in perpetuity, now ages. This causes the overall productivity of the land to be lost. Now the current farmer may not feel this, but what of the farmers of the future? What of the farmers heirs? Here it is important to count the cost. Whether the farmer realizes it or not it costs more to use chemicals. How you ask? Because as the lands fertility is reduced, so is the farmers income. In addition compared to the labor intensive organic alternative, the farmer, must not only buy chemicals, which are not cheap, but he must also buy more as time goes on to feed his habit. This of course, doesn't even come close to talking about the cost to the consumer, who has reduced vitamin and mineral content in their food. This is currently a nationwide epidemic of unreal proportions, that if continued will undoubtedly cost the entire country in the form of disease. Just like plants, healthy people get ill less. When humans are denied sufficient quantities of vitamins and minerals in the proportions and absorbablity only provided by fruits and vegetables, they will get sick, just as the plants that fed them were sick. In short the question is, would you rather pay a little more now for good food that nourishes you body, and prevents disease or pay a little less for food that makes you ill? I personally do not enjoy being a human guinea pig for the chemical industry. Therefore, my solution is to raise my own food thus inssuring it purity and my own health. If more people realized what they were eating with regard to chemicals and now genetically altered food disguised by the USDA, they would probably want to be homesteaders too. That was, afterall what started me homesteading. I suddenly realized that the best thing I could do for my children was to feed them better food than they would get from the store, and to trian them how to protect their families. I am raising four future homesteaders(hopefully), and that at least is part of the best education I can give them.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 10, 2000.

Response to how long?

First I wanted to chime in here and say that we are also homesteaders/Countrysiders that do not use herbicides, pesticides or anything of that sort in the garden or anywhere on our farm. We also do not use commercial fertilizers. We do not feed antibiotics to our chickens or cattle. Etc, etc, food as "pure" as we can possibly produce.

Now to answer Don's question, "How long until only small farmers and Countrysiders have pure food"... well to tell you the truth I thought we were already there... I believe that most organic operations are small, and the largest volume of food is produced via large agribusiness companies using biotech, herbacides, pesticides, growth hormones, etc etc.

I'll be first to say I don't know everything though... just seems to me that whenever I go shopping the organic or "pure" food section of the store is relegated to a tiny cooler and limited shelf space. If pure/organic meats, veggies and such are not easily available at the store or able to be purchased within a tight budget, then indeed we are already limited to small farmers and homesteaders having a ready supply of pure/organic food.

Just my 2 cents... Kim KountryLife.com

-- Kim P. (farmer40@webtv.net), July 10, 2000.

Response to how long?

Very well stated little bit, kim to.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Little Bit:

Honestly I'm not picking a fight. When you wrote of taking farming back to the state of the 29's and 30's several things need to be kept in mind. Back then farm labor was largely provided by family. My mother was born on a farm in Minn. and was one of 13 children. Farm horsepower was just that, horses or mules. A goodly amount of production went into feeding the labor (children) and them. (Tractors largely didn't become readily available until after WW-II.) Yes the Amish and Mennonites, most anyway, farm this way. (I'm told their wealth is measured in part by the number of children they have.) Even for them the size of their farm is determined by the amount of horsepower and labor available. (The size of an acre was determined by how much land one person with one draft animal could plow in a day.) Say you took a million acres and divided it into 25,000 40 acre farm which were restricted to using farming methods from the 20's or 30's. Production for off-the-farm sale might be 10% to 25% of the previous level. The laws of supply and demand dictate given the same level of demand, if supply decreases, prices will go up.

Live on the farm in the 20's and 30's was flat out hard work. Up before dawn and probably still doing chores after dark. Once a year I go to a consignment auction in a Mennonite community near here. I noticed one particular attractive young woman who was engaged at the time. This spring she had her fourth child in her arms. The five year span hasn't been kind to her. I suspect this would be fairly typical for the times back then.

Actually I don't disagree with most of what you have said. Back when Louis Bromfield had Malabar Farm in Ohio it attracted a lot of visitors. In one of his books he mentioned one bragged to him he had already worn out three farms and was still young enough to wear out a third.

I converted the farm I purchased from croplands to pastures and hayfields. Yes I use fertilization (including liming) and the local ag agent tells me the only way to control an invasion of yellow buttercups is to stray with a herbicide, but I haven't so far. I measure increased fertility by an increasing amount of earthworms. Are my cattle pure? Each spring they get a worm shot. 9-way vaccine and an insecticide ear tag. I really should give calves an injection for blackleg, but am chancing it, at least until the first one dies of it. Lost six in two weeks year before last and blackleg always takes the nicest of the calf crop.

Don's question implied small farms and homesteaders produced pure food. The point I was trying to make is just because it is produced on or comes off of a small farm or homestead doesn't necessarily make it pure. It does sound like you are as close as you can get it.

-- Ken Scharabok (scharabo@aol.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Well Don, I think we're just about there. To the gentleman who said that pure food wasn't produced by individuals, I beg to differ.I know so many people around me that really try very hard to build the soil and avoid chemicals. These aren't people trying to make a living at it . They are just trying to to the best that they can for their families. And guess what! It ends up being a very bonding experience for a family. They work together!

My grandmother(just turned 83) says that living on the farm was the best time of her life. She grew up that way and lived her early adult married life that way. It's a shame That Don isn't able to raise his livestock anymore. In my Grandma's day his age wouldn't have mattered because families stayed together and farmed long after they grew up and married. When she married she moved into the main house with my Grandpa's family and helped run the house along with a maiden sister in law which reduced the load drastically for her mother in law. The same went with the boys and farming. Some of the boys married and built a small home somewhere on the family land. They all worked together, depended on one another and took care of their elders. Oh yea! They really loved one another too!

She regrets ever leaving it. When the patriarch died a couple of the brothers didn't want to continue to farm and wanted to find their fortune in the city. My Grandpa was one of them. well the money ran out and he worked in a factory. He did all kinds of country projects in their little yard. But it was never the same. He had more free time but never ate as well or had the close companionship of loved ones like he had before ever again. They missed so many of the simple pleasures that can be found in the country.

My Grandma is welcome to live here any time she chooses. She came here not long ago to visit and see my first brand new chicks. She hadn't held one in probably 50 yrs. Her face lit up like childs. She is so proud of my projects and really thinks I am embarking on the best life a family can have.

So my point is that yes we may have more free time because of technology, but what are we doing with it. It's in most part fleeting entertainment. Are we really doing whats important? Yes the farm life was hard work. My Grandma readily admits that, but what wonderful fruits for their effort.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Denise:

You may have misunderstood at least what I thought I said. My contention is there is not a 100% correlation between 'pure' food and small farming and homesteading. Any time you scale something up to a "mega" status, quality is going to suffer. I admit there are probably thousands and thousands of small-scale folks who produce and process under organic and sanitary conditons. There are likely that many more who don't. You take your chances, just as you do from a "mega" supplier.

-- Ken Scharabok (scharabo@aol.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Ken, I rarely fight with anyone. I may disagree, but I always try to keep it civil. I personally think that it is important for the health of this country that these issues get discussed. First of all< I have no desire whatever to take farming back to the 20's and 30's. I do however think that it is important to look at history and retain the good things and throw out the bad. Living on a farm back then was hard work. The thing is all that hard work brought those people through the nations worst depression. There were tremendous hard times. Times this nation may see yet again. I have had a lot of time to think about these issues. My grandfather has farmed all my life and most of his. He also was the President of Early California foods, which was what my great grandfather started as Sunland Olive company in Sunland Ca. in order to sell his olive crop. My great grandfather was my grandmothers father. My Grandpa married the bosses daughter. He was no fool. Even today at 86, Grandpa is still the foremost authority on olive production in the United States. We finally convinced him to retire at 82. Of course that was from the company. Our family has incorporated and we run a a selection of Monocrop farms. The family raises oranges, apples, and of course olives. My mother just told me that grandpa was looking for ways to diversify further. Unfortunately, I don't ever think he'll go my direction, but Grandpa is beginning to develop respect for what I am doing. Now I say all this to say that I have heard the do you want five dollar tomatoes speech all my life. Grandma and grandpa religiously bring out the old spray rig every year, or at least they order the farm workers to. I know about both sides of this issue. Now over the years, I have learned a lot from the family business. My uncle lost his farm five years ago because he got over extended and he was forced to sell all the land surrounding his house. Now He works for the family Corporation and has just purchased another Orange orchard. Now keep in mind that my uncle is a shrewd farmer, and I have a great deal of respect for his expertise. When everybody else was planting Navels and Valencias, my uncle planted Tule Golds, which are a very early navel that was extremely new at the time. Consequently he got his oranges sold for a lot more money and he missed the frost. Very smart guy. The simple truth is all that didn't help him ultimately because these days farming, especially with chemicals is about the fastest way to lose your shirt. There were several mistakes he made. 1)He should have farmed those oranges organically. He even remarked to me one time that the prices they were getting for organic oranges were much better than he could get. I know he still probably wouldn't try it, but that doesn't make the economics of it not worth it. It's just tough to get organically certified ahen you have been a chemical farmer all your life. Not to mention that you have to look at the farm diiferent than you have your whole life. 2)He borrowed money. This is a big mistake, but the nature of the traditional orange business almost guarantees it. You see most orange farmers don't get paid for a crop for eight months after harvest. This means unless they are very careful and the weather cooperates, they are in debt. This leads to the next reason he went under. 3) Like most monocrop farmers he didn't diversify enough. Uncle Don grew apples and oranges. He just plain didn't have anything to fall back on when the oranges froze and the apples didn't get a good price. I guess what I am saying is diverse, organic, sustainable, agriculture is the only way to make farming successful over the long haul. Of course farming will never be a perfect enterprise. There will be crop failure, and disease problems, but if the farmer is diverse, if he use organic principals to pull the most from his land over time, he will sustain himself and his family. This is why I homestead. The first principal of farming is to feed yourself. Agriculture courses skip right over this these days. This was taught in the thirties though. In the 1930's farmers were happy to feed themselves if they were able. All the hard work they did had a tremendous effect. Those farmers working so hard literally saved a nation. You said,<"Back then farm labor was largely provided by family. My mother was born on a farm in Minn. and was one of 13 children. Farm horsepower was just that, horses or mules. A goodly amount of production went into feeding the labor (children) and them. (Tractors largely didn't become readily available until after WW-II.) Yes the Amish and Mennonites, most anyway, farm this way. (I'm told their wealth is measured in part by the number of children they have.) Even for them the size of their farm is determined by the amount of horsepower and labor available. (The size of an acre was determined by how much land one person with one draft animal could plow in a day.)"> I am not suggesting that we leave tractors behind. I am suggesting however that we leave pesticides behind. I am suggesting that we fertilize with soil building techniques rather than soil stripping techniques. I am suggesting that we only medicate animals when it is absolutely necessary. I am suggesting that we can blend the old and the new and come up with healthy food and production. Farmers must be reeducated. There were unethical farmers that ignore soil fertility after they realized it existed and wore out farms intentionally. This is what makes it a crying shame that knowing what we know, we don't protect the soil more. <"Say you took a million acres and divided it into 25,000 40 acre farm which were restricted to using farming methods from the 20's or 30's. Production for off-the-farm sale might be 10% to 25% of the previous level. The laws of supply and demand dictate given the same level of demand, if supply decreases, prices will go up."> Say you took the same million acres and created 25,000 40 acre farmswith farmers that were committed not to going back to the past, but to taking the new technology and applying it to organic practices. Say all those farmers began building their soil instead of stripping it. Say all those farmers were committed to covercropping, the rotation of many diverse crops, and animals, the nurturing of plant health to limit the distruction of pests. Say in the midst of this million acres were small communtities who took their sustanance from those farms to feed their families. What kind of America would we have then? We'd have a healthier America. We'd have an America shielded from hardship to the extent that is possible. We'd have less disease. Now unfortunately this will most likely never happen, but it surely won't ever happen if I as an individual don't make the attempt to try. And we'd still have tractors.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Ken, I didn't take it wrong. I understand what you are saying. I meant that there are alot of families producing superior food. And probably some that aren't. The soil and health are very important concerns. What I was trying to say is there is so much more to this than just that. The slow disappearance of small farms seems to be related to the trend of the slow disappearance of the traditional family also. Technology has changed so much and the cost has not just been to the soil. I hope I'm making sense.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Denise, I wanted to stop by and tell you how much I appreciated your story about your grandparents. I forwarded it on to an e-mail list where we've been having a discussion about elderly people's attitudes toward their childhood. I hope you don't mind. I probably should have asked first, but as it didn't include your name, I went ahead and sent it along. I agree with you regarding the relationship between the devolution of the family to the exodus of farmers away from the farm. My own father left the farm as soon as he could. I have never understood it. I just know that it was always my desire as a child to live on a farm. We lived in the silicon valley before it was the silicon valley, and although happy, I actually ran away when I was in the fifth grade to be a farmer. My mother was absolutely livid when she found me trekking home from my little adventure at 6:30 in the evening. There was a hill I could see from school with my binoculars. On it was an old abandoned farm house, and it was my intention to go there and start my farming career. So I convinced a friend that this was the life for us and started hiking to parts unknown. It wasn't till we got to the road that led to the house, where we found a mean looking woman and a no trespassing sign that I gave up my quest. My mother I am sure was frantic, but the story just goes to show that my love of farming comes from way back. Keep in mind both sets of my grandparents lived in the country. My mom's parents had more of a homestead type farm. My father's parents of course were farming on the larger scale I mentioned earlier. All of them were pull yourself up by your own bootstraps kind of people. They all worked hard to build their life, and we are expected to work hard and build our own lives too. I learned that at an early age and so off I went to meet my destiny. Unfortunately for me my destiny was a very angry mother. needless to say my destiny was also to spend a lot of time in my room.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 11, 2000.

Response to how long?

Little Bit,that's such a funny story! I never did any thing like that but my grandparents stories had me wanting to live in the country too. I dont mind that you forwarded the story. Actually, I'm flattered. I thought about some of this yesterday as my kids and I picked a big pot of green beans (organic) and broke them together (even the 2 yr. old). With the instruction of my husbands aunt we cooked them with ham and potatoes in a pressure cooker for the first time. First time for our own beans and first time for using a pressure cooker. Then my kids suggested we invite the aunt and her husband over for dinner. The food was great the company wonderful. Great family time all through the day and into the evening. all because of some homegrown green beans and such!

My Mom's on the bandwagon now too! We are doing everything just about possible on the space we have right now, but when we make the big move she's selling too. She wants to combine with us for her retirement. I'm the only child, so she says it would all be mine anyway. Then we hope Grandma will come too! She's so independant. Now talk about going full cicle! It's our dream , I hope it works.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), July 12, 2000.

Response to how long?

Denise, those green beans sound wonderful to me. I wish I could talk my mother andfather into moving to the Country with me, but I suppose God has a bigger job for him as the pastor of a Silicon Valley church. He feels that is where the Lord wants him so I suppose I shouldn't argue. I have always want the kind of extended family thing you are talking about, so I guess that is the way I'll have to raise my kids and hope it takes. My Green beans are just starting to get beans on them. Unfortunately most of my beans were lost to frost. After I get done making peach jam today I think I'll plant some more for an early fall harvest. It doesn't frost here until late, so I think I'll have enough time.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), July 12, 2000.

Response to how long?

Thank you Don for this question. Ken, I don't think you really understand what most homesteaders are trying to do...

I am severly allergic to many things...so much so that it could take my life...and has almost....so I raise a BIG garden and can and freeze now because of all the "stuff" that is added to commercial food. We try to be as chemical free and organic as possible (my Angora rabbits always provide me with a great supply of fertilizer!)

We hope to someday get a small Dexter or other small milking cow.

My husband was raised in what some of you describe as farming's past "hard times" but I know of so many people who would quickly and without a second thought trade the rat race they are in today for the slower more wonderful, albeit harder, time of their life on the family farm...

children worked hard then, but they got in less trouble. they had a respect for hard work and the work ethic....see if that's found in most inner cities now.

This country is ruining our health with food additives....

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), July 15, 2000.

Response to how long?

This has touched on what I perceive to be the "taproot" of the problems, when things that sustain life cease to have a value far greater than a monetary one, we are all in trouble. Today pretty much everything that we do in a societal sense comes down to being financially lucrative. If it isn't making $ it isn't worthwhile, unless it is purely entertainment.

The monculture that "agribusiness" has propagated is deadly. It can be likened to cancer in that we all have some cancerous cells, but there isn't a problem until those cells grow too quicly to be controlled ny the other cells. It's all about balance and sustainability, and monoculture and the almighty dollar possess neither.

The old family farms had it right with diversity and the interdependence and mutually supportive natures of things keeping balance.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), July 15, 2000.

Response to how long?

gee thanks to all who responded.i feel i am on the right forum.seems to me most here is on the same wavelengt i just picked up some intersting info to share.concering what our govt.is going to do for our small farmers.see what you think// a report from USDA conference on consolidation in agriculture.While corp.ag.still has it:sproponets-mostly fromcompanies like cargill,carroll foods,continental grain and certain politicians-others are alarmed at the real cost in quality of life,in community infrasturcture and societal issues. Kathy Kelly,nat com.on small farms,expressed cocern that concentration of power in agribusiness threatens survival of the family farm no matter the size.left unchected.she said.the current systemwill tend to further concentrate,rather than disperce,that power.She said corporationsshould not be allowed to force family farms to extinction. Survival of the fittestis the rule ofour economic system but should it always be? not when it threatens our democracy" and not when it violates ANTI-TRUST"laws Isn"t it odd that our european nations supports its small farmers,while the U.S.remains indifferent to the plight of those who have so ably fed the world? My quote of the day when goverement controls supplys and markets.its called socialism.when big corporations do it,its called free entprise by our govt" just a thought,,,,don

-- don summers (doningrant@webtv.net), July 16, 2000.