I have been thinking and studying upon this subject for several days now. I have not found a verse in the bible which says exactly when a baby's soul enters into their body. For me this matters very little. I personally believe that life begins at conception. Life is after all a miracle. Man has not been able to duplicate it without using the basic building blocks that God provided. I believe that for every baby concieved, God has a plan for that little life. I also believe God knows the evil in people's hearts even before commiting that evil. You see, I honestly believe that when we abort a baby, in addition to murder, we deny ourselves the great blessing that child would have been to this planet. I had two babies that were born prematurely at seperate times. Both of them did not make it. First there was my little boy, Keith Adam Guzman. He was a beautiful little boy who only weighed 450 grams when he was born. Even so, at the time of birth he cried. I cannot tell you how it felt to hear that little one cry and know that his chances were so poor. You see, Keith was only 23 weeks gestation. I have pictures and his first clothes, and the blankets that he was wrapped in along with all those things from his youger sister, Claressa Lynn Guzman. You see two of my children went to be with Jesus. The heartrending thing for me is that in my state I could have just as easily walked into a clinic and terminated those two precious childrens little lives. I held both of my children as they died. I grieved for their loss, and some woman, somewhere murdered her little one without a second thought. Let me tell you from personal experience, that a child at 23 weeks gestation is a child none the less. My children were NOT TISSUE! They were little babies with eyes and ears and the tiniest fingers you ever saw. I even have a little bit of Claressa's hair. Babies in utero react to pain stimulous. They react to music. They react to mommy's soft voice that is only for them. I don't know when God gives them a soul, but I do know that a baby fresh out of the womb knows their mother's voice. Anyone that talks to them will not get a reaction, but the moment they hear Mom they will calm down. If they had no soul could they recognise their mother's voice. This was even true of my two tinest little ones. I cried and told them how sorry I was that I could not keep them inside me longer. They knew me. When we kill a baby through abortion, we do our best to stop the plan of God. We do our best to destroy what God hath wrought. Ever hear that phrase "What God hath wrought let no man put asunder." God's word says in the verses given in the above posts that he has planned who people will be even before they are born. When we abort a baby, we kill the potential that God has instilled in that little life. It is MURDER. If you don't believe that please read these verses about men whose lives God planned before they were born. 1) Issac, ordained to be in the bloodline leading to Christ- Gen 15:4; 17:19-21; 18:10, 14 2) Jacob, ordained to be in the bloodline leading to Christ- Gen. 25:23; Rom. 9:9-12 3) Samson, ordained to deliver Israel from the Philistines and serve God as a Nazarite- Judg. 13:2-5 4) Samuel, ordained to serve God as a Nazarite- 1Sam 1:11-28 5) David, ordained to rule over Israel- Ps.139:13-18 6) Cyrus, ordained to set the Jewish remnant in Babylon and Persia free- Isa 44:28; 45:1; Ezra 1:2-4 7)Josiah, ordained to destroy the false altar of King Jeroboam- 1Kings 13:2 8)Jeremiah, ordained to be God's prophet to the nations- Jer.1:5 9) John the Baptist, ordained to be Christ's forerunner- Luke 1:13-17 10) Paul, ordained to be God's minister to the gentiles- Gal 1:15 So now you have not only looked inside a mother's heart, but hopefully you have been given the chance to see how God carries out his plan. I leave you with this: " And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Therefore do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows. Everyone therefore who shall confes Me before men I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven." Matt. 10:28-33 Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 04, 2000

Answers

Someone on the other part of this thread talked about how many abortions have been performed. 4,000 a day. Another side of the abortion issue(haven't had time to read all the responses, sorry if this has been mentioned) and the very least of the issue is the future economic results. With less people being born, what happens to social security, the houses that are being built now, etc. I suppose immigrants can take the place of some of these aborted lives. God said to multiply and replinish the earth. Didn't I read in Countryside and another place a few years ago, that you could put all the world's people in the state of Texas and give each person so many 1,000 sq. ft. The earth can handle the people, it's the people that can't handle the earth. Sorry, if I'm rambling, this is a very emotional issue. I've never had an abortion, but considered it once a long time ago. I do know some women who have had an abortion. It is so hard for them. For any woman considering abortion, remember adoption. There's plenty of couples waiting to adopt, is 9 months too much to ask for? Remember Little Bit's words about God's plan. Isn't it wonderful to know that God loves us enough to forgive us for what we do(just not abortion), if we ask.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 04, 2000.

I am hoping Cindy meant not just abortion. God can forgive anything if we'll only ask. Even abortion. There are a lot of women out there who suffer from the scars of knowing what they had allowed to happen. I pray that someday no woman should have to live with that guilt. I am afraid that we may only see that day when we stand at the pearly gates.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 04, 2000.

All four of mine were healthy full term babies---and all alive now, thanks to God. But while in utero, they get out of the way when pushed gently, get hiccups, and can run the heel of their foot from one side of the belly to the other. And when my first was born, they dried her off and laid her on my tummy. I held her there and spoke to her father. She upturned her face and looked at me with such knowing eyes, "Oh, THERE you are. Wondered what you looked like!" She KNEW my voice! Not ten minutes old, and she knew.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), August 04, 2000.

Little bit, sorry about that, not just abortion. I am dyslexic and guess I didn't proof read enough.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 04, 2000.

Thank you, Little Bit, for your excellent post. I never had to go through losing a baby. I just knew from the time I found out I was pregnant with each one that that was a person, my child, in there -- I would have died myself before allowing harm to come to one of them, if there was any way to prevent it. I'm sure Little Bit felt the same way about hers, and most of the rest of you moms out there, too. Even if I had known all the problems that Juniper was going to have, that she would be twenty years old and mentally on a par with a three-year-old (more or less), unable to take care of herself, I would never have considered aborting her. Each one is a special treasure from God. I feel so bad for those mothers who have aborted their babies. What blessings they have missed! In addition to the blessings that babies bring as they grow, the parents are forced to grow up, too, and become stronger. To deal with things that might have been easier without children to consider, without that constant responsibility. But is it good for us to not have the responsibility? Is it good for us to be able to evade the consequences of our actions? Is it good for us to always be able to do whatever we want to do, to have things *easy*? (I know that some women who have abortions are in desperate situations -- but most aren't, for most it really is a choice.) Just seems like a general lack of maturity contributes greatly to this problem.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), August 04, 2000.

Hi Little Bit, Good response to Colleen.Terribly sorry about the loss of your precious little ones.Praise God it is but a temporary loss!

I just wanted to add a few points.

1st from scripture: And job spake,and said,Let the day perish wherein I was born,and the night in which it was said,there is a MAN CHILD conceived.[note:not there is now growing within this woman a part of her own body,a physical shell,which if she so chooses to allow to remain a part of her will become a man child upon taking its first breath!]

And Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife because she was barren:and the Lord was intreated of him,and Rebekah his wife conceived.And the CHILDREN STRUGGLED together within her and she said,If it be so,why am I thus?And the Lord said unto her 2 nations are in thy womb,and 2 manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels and the one people shall be stronger than the other and the elder shall serve the younger.[Note: the word children,children struggling together within her-soulless its?]

And it came to pass,that,when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the Babe leaped in her womb and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost and she spake out with a loud voice and said, Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb.And whence is this to me that the mother of MY LORD should come to me?For lo,as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears,the BABE leaped in my womb for JOY. [ a mere physical shell-soulless-called a babe? leaping for JOY? Also, Mary was "merely" pregnant yet called a mother-the babe within her called The Lord.]

You see, we must always compare scripture with scripture.We cannot isolate a portion of scripture and give it whatever meaning we wish it to have.That is not truth dear.There can be numerous applications but only one correct interpretation. Note: When the Bible tells us that God breathed into Adam the breath of life... it was to emphasize his difference from the animals-not to serve as the "proof text" on how a soul comes to someone. Colleen,I just pray that you will read His word,test it even!He will show you The Truth-not my truth vs.your truth:that is not truth,but The Truth!

2ndly Your assumption quite naturally and logically raises some questions:For one,If a soul enters upon a baby's first breath and exits when their breath goes out of their physical shells and they die,do I lose my soul upon every exhalation?What if I clear my lungs of all the air possible and hold my breath-am I then soul-less? What about someone who has choked to death?The air remains in their lungs-that's what makes the Heimlich manuever so very effective,so is their soul trapped in their body only to be released by some coroner upon removing the blockage? Do plants then have souls?They do breath after all.Or does the soul only enter with oxygen?Do aerobic bacteria have souls because they breath oxygen while anaerobic remain soul-less because they thrive in the abscence of oxygen?Does a fire have a soul?After all,it breathes. Or do only lungs make for souls?Why unborn babies have lungs;they even practice "breathing".Also unborn babies get all the oxygen they need.I could go on but I'll spare everyone... Colleen,I am NOT making fun of you!Promise...Faithful are the wounds of a friend... God Bless you and may He lead you to His Truth, In His love,~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 04, 2000.

Say,I forgot one thing. Colleen,I don't know if you've ever had a baby but have you ever had a beloved pet dog or cat expecting babies?It's so neat to feel all those squirmy little bundles wrestling around in their mama's "belly".No loving pet owner would think for a moment of tearing them apart and removing them from their mama. God bless you dear soul and guide you into The Truth,He loves you so much,He is so Alive,I pray you study His word-see for yourself if all that we Christians say is so. ~~~Tracy~~~ While we were yet sinners,Christ died for us! You can accept that or not,please remember:if we all sound like ranting fools when we talk about sin and salvation,that the preaching of the cross to them that are perishing is foolishness.I used to revile Christians and their notions myself till God "revealed" Himself to me through the Verifiable Truth of His Word.

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 04, 2000.

It is not are job to judge others .There are many different sides to this issue .Lets take a look at all the neglected and abused children or the ones who spend there whole lives in foster care being moved from place to place .There is no easy answer .Our system has to change woman need good options out there .It is easy to sit back and say how evil it is to have an abortion , but have you ever offered a pregnant woman a place to stay , medical coverage , and to take care of the baby after its born ? How about the mentally ill or disabled or drug addicted children ? How many of them have you taken into your home to love forever ? There is no one correct answer , lots of things have to change .Lets all remember not to judge anyone unless you walked a mile in there shoes .Its easy to say what we would or should be done when your on the outside looking in .God bless .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), August 04, 2000.

Dear Patty: Yes, we have adopted many children from overseas, from the U.S., multiracial, handicapped, older sib groups, children of unknown backgrounds. They are now grown and I found each and everyone to be totally human and to have a purpose. We have known great joy, much sorrow when our son from India died, heartache. loss of friends because we didn't fit the WASPian mode. Even so our lives have been enriched beyond all measure. Now for the grandchildren: :).......

-- Norma Lucas (trooper@806@webtv.net), August 04, 2000.

Little bit Farm, I am so sorry at your families loss. Words are not sufficient. I too lost my first baby, a beautiful baby boy and I can assure everyone he was indeed "human" in every sense of the word. The very notion of a unborn baby being only an empty vessel, ashes & dust, is almost beyond my ability to comprehend..... how does one come to such a conclusion? If your choice is to kill unborn babies, just say so, don't "wish" it into some other "thing" so as to avoid guilt. And I am sorry, I do not need to "walk in someones shoes" to know killing babies is wrong! Just like I dont need to walk in a rapists shoes before I can judge rape to be wrong. Ugh! This seems so basic a concept, that we should not kill unborn babies, that it is hard to know where to begin. So I think I will quit now. May the Truth Set Us All Free! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 04, 2000.

I was not saying wether it was wrong or right or in between .I have my options on the subject and the final judge will be god .And yes there are many wonderfull people who have adopted and loved these children .I guess my point is everyone can point the finger , but many don't want to lift that finger to change things or help .If you are dead set against abortion that is your right , but at the same time do something besides complain about it .Run an ad in the paper that you are willing to help a young girl in trouble , become a youth counselor ,adopt , do something .I know this is a very personal subject and we will never agree .

-- Patty Gamble (fodfarms@slic.com), August 04, 2000.

I have no answers, only questions. I bare parts of me with this response that are no one's business, yet I must. As much as I and my parents share- dreams ,hopes and heartaches, DNA is not included in the list. Therefore my life is a living testament to pro-life. However, many that support pro-life would not accept a "crack baby" or a child with birth defects. So I ask you ? As you defend either choice--are you ready to defend the issue with your life ? Bible verses and feelings are fine for rhetoric--can you live it ?

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 04, 2000.

Joel,Yes,yes,and yes!Just about any Christian I know would gladly adopt and love a little one.In fact,I have a friend who did adopt 2 lovely children with birth defects.The are now grown into 2 of the "neatest" young women around.I post under my real name,so for privacy's sake I'll say no more on them. I also recall reading an article about "crack babies":basically stating it was a myth that they were unresponsive for life.With any precious little infant,if they are greatly neglected or abused they will often react differently than a beloved child(i.e. stiffening up when being held),but everything I've read seems to indicate that is only temporary.Oops!Off subject a bit. Joel,praise God your birth mother cared enough to go through with her pregnancy! I agree that you don't have to be in someone's shoes so to speak to know whether or not something is wrong. Furthermore,abortion doesn't only kill tiny babies with tiny ,little beating hearts:it hurts the mothers terribly.It puts them at a much greater risk of various cancers(breast cancer being the most well- documented);it can so weaken the cervix that subsequent,wanted pregnancies cannot be carried to term;and it causes devestating depression in the women.Imagine how the dear lady feels viewing an ultrasound picture of a wanted baby later in life.At not much more than two months along(when I had my first ultrasound)watching the tiny babe rolling around-seeing the little arms and legs.Watching the little head turning gracefully to the side,seeing and hearing the tiny little heart beating so steadily,so surely.Imagine her reading about her baby's developement.How depressing. I can understand the fear,the confusion,&the sense of hopelessness that might lead one to this decision,but that doesn't make it right. There is help out there for them;there is hope. well,I'm rambling... I saw a great bumper sticker at my local grocers;it said"LOVE THEM BOTH-CHOOSE LIFE" All I can say to that is Amen! May God Bless each and every one of you- Goodnight, ~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 04, 2000.

ps-forgot to mention that the waiting lists are monstrous for those willing to adopt.There is so much demand for little ones to adopt but so very little "supply"! Sorry to be so scatter-brained today everyone, Goodnight again, ~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 04, 2000.

Some of you are arguing that someone who is pro-life should be ready to adopt handicapped infants, do more to help, etc. I don't disagree with that, but lets look at the other side of the issue. Many women who have abortions are pressured into it by Planned Parenthood and other abortion providers, because they profit from it! They profit from the abortion itself and they profit tremendously from selling the body parts of the aborted babies. These people are not pro- choice. They do not want women to choose adoption or keeping their babies,because there is no profit in that option for them. They are pro-abortion, because there is a tremendous amount of money in the abortion business. Why don't we ask the pro-choice people to be as noble as we expect the pro-life people to be? Let them provide abortions free and stop selling baby parts, and see how long they would be out there fighting for a woman's right to choose.

-- Mom (prolife@prolife.com), August 04, 2000.

My husband was a dopted--but if his mother has chosen abortion--I would not have the other half of my self/ I would not be whole/or my life as I know it! Five years ago we found my husband's birth family. His birthmother had died--but we found an aunt that had prayed each day of her life for my husband-- as when she found her sister had given this baby up for adoption her heart broke/ that she wanted him-- -she & her own husband could not have children & would have done anything to have had him! Fifty years later when we found her she was still praying for him & had never forgotten him, once. We had been searching for his birth family for over 15 years. My hubby & I have had several "special children" as part of our lives, we were blessed to have had them/ the time they were with us--as we had "special children", who were in the process of leaveing an abusive home & on their way to live in a loveing, careing home. I agree there are far more people out there who want children--who would gladly take them into their hearts & homes --sometimes the match has to work in God's timming & not ours! There are thousands of people on waiting lists all over the country who would give anything to adopt a baby! Pick up a news paper & look at the want ads ---as far as helping a young girl in trouble---there are thousands of churches that would love to make that match to help that girl & save that baby!!! I have worked with many of them! Sonda in Ks.

-- Sonda (sgbruce@birch.net), August 05, 2000.

Mom, Very well said, but why don't they call it what it is-pro-death? Selling body parts of aborted babies, that has to be down there with whatever else is the all time low. What are they being used for, research on what, collagen, medicines, or do I really want to know?

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 05, 2000.

This is baring way more than I really want to, but I must. I have been there and done that, and God help me if there was *1* thing in my entire life that I could go back in time and change, that would be it. I would be a mother.

As soon as the first cell division occurred (soul entry!)I knew I was pregnant. It was God's attempt at trying to turn turn around a life that desperatly needed a change. I, of course, knew better than God, and in stubborness and selfishness, I killed my baby. Then four months later I tried to kill myself. More evidence that the wages of sin are death.

I told one of my sisters that I was going to "have an abortion" and she told my parents.When I went to visit them for my mom's birthday, they had their Pastor over and I argued with them all for 5 hours straight and said horrific things about the gift of God inside of me.

I had many different offers from people. My parents offered to pay for medical expenses and raise the child until I wanted to take care of him myself. The Pastor and his wife offered to do the same or outright adopt the child. Friends of my sister offered me $25,000 and medical expenses for the baby. My response to all of this was that if I kept "this thing" inside of me for 9 months I wouldn't be able to give the baby up. Yet I called him a parasite. See how selfish I was?

This is a sin issue. My experience is the most common. At that time a baby just wouldn't have been convenient for me, I chose to murder instead of taking responsibility for my actions. All of the things that Patty mentioned earlier are sins as well. This nation is swimming in filth and enjoying it and we are responsible. This is one of the reasons I am so against excessive Federal taxes, because not only did I murder my own child, now I get to help less priveleged women murder theirs as well.

About 5 months before I accepted Christ, my child came to me in a dream, and he talked with me like an old friend and told me that he forgave me. He was beautiful. That was the beginning of God breaking my pride.

I thank God for the gift of salvation in Christ Jesus, I am SO thankful that He can forgive me, because I tell you from my heart that it is really hard to forgive myself.

If there is anyone that needs to speak with someone who has "walked in those shoes", please feel free to e mail me and I would be more than happy to talk with them about this.

I praise God that His grace is sufficient.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), August 05, 2000.

Oh Doreen, God bless you. Isn't it wonderful that nothing is too dirty for God to clean up. He promises to make us white as snow. Just think of the ministry he has given you. Praise the Lord! "All things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose" Even the worst things in our lives become useful in His kingdom. God has forgiven you, and he loves you. I know even now the sorrow still lingers, but God is there to carry your burden for you. Thank you for sharing yourself with us.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 05, 2000.

Cindy - Fetal tissue is big business right now. Check out worldmag.com and under search type in fetal tissue for several revealing articles on this horrendous practice. Makes you reconsider organ donation.

-- glynnis in KY (gabbycab@msn.com), August 05, 2000.

Doreen, I told myself I was thru after my last post on this subject. What more could be said? How do you break through the deception? the Lie? Yours is a story that that speaks to every point on this issue, a more poignant, compelling case could not be made for either the unborn baby, the mother, society, or our Lord. Thank You. Your courage to tell your story, revealing your pain and regret to edify and point others to the truth of this tragedy is courageous above all measure! Thank You and May God Richly Bless You, as you have just blessed others! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), August 05, 2000.

Doreen, thank you for sharing your story with us. You may not know till you get to heaven how many lives you have touched or opened the door to change by revealing your pain. Maybe one of the regulars or maybe someone that lurks and never responds. Who knows, you may not only have stopped an abortion, you may even help prevent the suicide of someone who had an abortion by showing them that there's hope for forgiveness and eternal life. Thanks again and God Bless You.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 05, 2000.

Doreen! May Almighty God Bless you and cradle you in His loving arms! You've done a great thing by revealing this part of your life to all who read. You will never know in this life just how many your testimony has reached and actually change their lives. When the world condemns its' nice to know that He cares and He is STILL in the forgiving and saving business. Bless you. Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 05, 2000.

Doreen,For once,I am at a loss for words. Amen. Bless you! Praise God for your courage to share this.Praise Him for saving you and giving you such a tender heart.Praise Him that your precious little one is safe in the arms of Jesus.Safe!And I don't say this to be cliche but Praise Him that one day you'll see him because of Him! Remember dear sister,He has loved you with an everlasting love! Underneath are The everlasting arms. I think of these precious words:Safe in the arms of Jesus, Safe on His gentle breast,there by His love overshaded,Sweetly my soul shall rest. Our God is truly the Father of Mercies and the God of all comfort, I pray he continually comforts you,and I pray that he uses you and your testimony mightily to help and comfort others. God bless, In His love,~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 05, 2000.

Doreen that had to take the Strength of 10 grinches times 2. Both to live it and to live to tell it ! That took shear guts ! I'm proud to know you(of course I was before you said it anyway) You are a beacon of light on a dark coast as we sail thru life ! Take Care of yourself and may God Bless you !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 06, 2000.

There's two things that Christians can remember and draw on when things get so overwhelming that you want to give up. God's way is to make a way where there's no way and What Satan intends for bad, God intends for good. We tend to make God small and put Him in a box, even though he has all power, there's nothing too big for Him. The power of forgiveness, both from God and we forgiving others and ourselves (the hardest part) is awesome. Isn't God wonderful.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), August 06, 2000.

When this thread first appeared I chose not to respond as most people already have their minds set. BUT today is a different day. I am a Christian and a biologist and would throw away anything and everything I believed as a biologist for Christ's sake. That said, God wants us to think within the freedom he has given us and wants truths from us. There can be no forced or adopted conviction.

As a biologist I know that the question of when life begins is a bogus question - in the generational sense it never ends. There is complete continuity between one generation and another and yet another.

"Murder" requires both an object (a human) and motive. In reviewing the complexity of "life" on the planet it becomes apparent that the life of a cell is not the same as the life of the developed organism. The vastly increased level of organization of an organism utterly transcends that of the cells, tissues, molecules, atoms, and atomic particles from which it is composed. So, for me, abortion during early stages is not murder. I do believe its a sin but its not the sin of murder. To misslabel it undercuts the legitimatacy of other Christian claims.

-- charles (clb@watervalley.net), August 06, 2000.

Say Charles, I vehemently disagree with you sir,however I have no time to respond. When you have time sir,go to www.icr.org and check out what many other scientists have to say.[Among the first that come to mind: Dr.Duane T. Gish,a former research biologist for Upjohn I belive it was.] Good bye and may God guide you into all truth, ~Tracy~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 06, 2000.

Thank you all for your kindness, I was so nervous about it, but I had been praying on it since Colleen's first post on the subject and sometimes you just have to do the hard thing because God says so.He gave me the strength!

Charles, all of life is made up of the will of God for it to form and grow. People are special in God's eyes and are told so repeatedly throughout His Word. You are essentially saying that you know more than He on the subject. Might I suggest that you look at your last paragraph again and review the "intent" that you say must be present. No one gets an abortion by accident. They may be pushed into it, but it takes the intent of at least two people to make it occur. It is murder, and if you have the benefit of the Holy Spirit active in your heart you won't be able to lie to yourself or anyone else about it.

-- Doreen (livinginskin@yahoo.com), August 07, 2000.