Who is our Ceasar? (Religious?)greenspun.com : LUSENET : Countryside : One Thread
With so many intriging posts on vieuwpoints, beliefs and other opinons, I would like to ask this question : "When Jesus said to give Ceasar what belongs to him, does that mean for us that whoever taxes us we have to blindly pay?." I love bringing my tithe in, but very much detest having to pay for things I don't believe in such as abortions, prison system to name only two. I consider myself a practising Christian of Jewish heritage and love the way members of this forum comminicate and no matter what you seem to stay friends. Ada
-- Aagje Franken (Backyard@AOL.com), August 27, 2000
Ada! I guess we're supposed to "render unto Chesar that which is Ceasars" but I also detest supporting many many things our crooked and corrupt leaders support. Abortions would be at the top of the list but more than prisons--giving to other nations to build military forces and not feeding the poor. Right here in America we have people goin to bed hungry every day. My question is "WHY"? I still have to pay taxes or they will throw me in jail. I don't like jails after being a Prison Guard back in the late 60's and early 70's. We will be held accountable for what we have done in this life-when we face the Master. I, along with millions and millions of others, will hang my head in shame for not speaking out and doing more to oppose the ungodly things our money bought leaders have supported with our tax dollars. My two cents. Matt. 24:44
-- hoot (email@example.com), August 27, 2000.
Makes me wonder what is Ceasers and what isn't?
-- john leake (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 2000.
Here we go--I'm going to get real controversial here as this is my favorite biblical topic(right up there with the bullwhip in the temple). Render under to Ceaser that which is Ceasars' huh ? As my faith would lead me than I offer you this opinion--NOTHING BELONGS TO CEASAR ! nothing Nothing NOTHING ! All good things come from God and if they came from him than render them back to only him. This was the hidden message Jesus baffaled the Pharisees with. One could argue that money was not created by God therefore it does not belong to God. I would disagree, as God demanded the tithe therefore he created the means to tithe with ! Governments are given power by God the same as a conquerer is given power to overthrow them. I also say to you who ponder this subject--Our government is undeserving of a single dime in taxes ! They are corrupt beyond recognition of one single good thought about them. Murderers, liars and thieves make up the controlling parties of our era. Pay them ? I say burn your money and will have done more to glorify God than to enhance the luxury of the Whore of Babylon !
That is one neat first name you have Aagie ! May I ask it's origin ? It has always made me wonder if was Scandanavian. Great question and Thank You !
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 27, 2000.
I figger'd this one would get to Joel! Seriously, who makes the determination of what's Ceasers and whats not?
-- john leake (email@example.com), August 27, 2000.
I believe the elected representitives that we the people ( or at least the we that participate )send to do our bidding in state and federal assembly houses decide in our name what is ceasers and what is not. It would seem the current mood in America is everything in all of creation and as far as the eye can behold is the property of ceaser, and ceaser benevolently allows us wonderful " rights" under his loving watchful eye. Take for example the generous new sheep producers hand out program!
-- Mike (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 2000.
I agree with Joel that our representatives are often murderers, liars, and thieves, but even those folks need money. During a break from murdering and thieving, they did manage to allow the creation of the greatest nation on earth.
Our constitutional republic was formed for these resons. ...to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,
-- Jim (email@example.com), August 27, 2000.
oops, hit that submit button too soon. I agree with Joel that our representatives are often murderers, liars, and thieves, but even those folks need money. During a break from murdering and thieving, they did manage to allow the creation of the greatest nation on earth.
Our constitutional republic was formed for these resons. "...to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ouselves and our Posterity." These are the only legitimate functions of government, but these things do require money. We are free to debate these issues only because we have the strongest economy in the world which provides us with an armed forces without equal, and because we have the right to arm ourselves as a hedge against a tyrannical government.
Did I get I little off topic? Sorry. I hate taxes as much as any of you, but the government needs some money. I'll agree that they waste about 90% of what they get, but that doesn't excuse us from paying.
-- Jim (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 2000.
It does hurt to know that our hard-earned money is going to support things we believe are wrong, but the same thing was true in Jesus' time. The Romans were doing things with that money that no practicing Jew would have supported, and later on the tax money was even used to help persecute the Christians. God allows us to have over us the *Ceasar* that we have earned by our behavior, and expects us to submit to that authority for our own chastisement if we have been doing wrong and earned a bad government. That doesn't mean that we are to participate in things that are wrong, even if the government orders us to, but we are to submit to authority whether it is *good* or *bad*. Our place in changing things is first to get our own lives right with God's standards, and then (and only then) may we start working on changing our nation for the better. But we can start praying right now, and we can get down on our knees and repent. If everyone who believes in God truly got their lives right with Him, we could once again be the *salt* to preserve our nation, and make a difference, and maybe even correct some of the ills of our government. But unless we correct our own ills first, we are only getting what we deserve. Sermon is over -- but please do think about it -- we can't go on forever blaming others for the problems our country has. We are just as much to blame as anyone else.
-- Kathleen Sanderson (email@example.com), August 27, 2000.
I just want to say I think Kathleen Sanderson hit the nail on the head in her e-mial.Her viewpoint is right on target.
-- Brian Baumgardner (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 27, 2000.
Personally, I like the idea of sending whatever we owe to the feds but the congress gets to allocate half of it and we, the citizens get to allocate the other half, via a check list or something like that.
And yes, I too agree with Kathleen. Despite whatever systemic corruption there may be we get to sleep in the beds we make. Integrity begins at home.
-- john leake (email@example.com), August 27, 2000.
Ceasar was the government and the Orthodox Church teaches basically what was just said by others. We live with government and as far as possible it is our responsibility to be good citizens of that government-no matter if we agree with everythng it does or not. (We are not to disobey God in that obedience to be sure.) I often wonder if we could all be so free to express ourselves if we lived under a different government? I do know that this system isn't perfect-I am aware of many problems in the system and in the people who keep that system running BUT I also know that many good things do come from those who we pay taxes to.(Roads, law enforcement, fire protection, consumer protection, medical care for the poor, elder and disabled, etc) Maybe we need to get more involved in our local community governments and start a true 'grassroots' movement to make our own Ceasar better? I try to stay knowlegeable, vote and get invovled politically on a local level to influence those who have power here. I don't begrudge paying my taxes, just that they aren't distributed where they are most needed. Just my two cents worth-betty
-- betty modin (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 2000.
Keep track of the motive behind the question put to Jesus as it influences the answer. The Pharisees were not asking honestly for an answer but just seeking to trap him. I think he elevated the answer beyond the taxation issue. The transcendent answer was that the stuff and junk and arguments of this world are of little concern. The important focus is on what one should give to God, i.e., the relationship with God. So, I don't think his statment about rendering unto Caesar can be necessarily extrapolated to mean: pay you taxes like a good little citizen. Remember, this was the God/Man that went into THE temple and whipped the ("legitimate") money changers, turned their tables over and caused the authorities' coins to fly in all directions. Also, once Jesus said he was not under obligation to pay the temple tax but did so anyway to save the reputation of his disciples. The verses don't particular mean don't pay your taxes either.
For parallel reasons I don't buy into the concept of "submit to authorities" either. Paul, the disciples, and other dead saints weren't matyred because of their submission to worldly authority.
-- charles (email@example.com), August 28, 2000.
When this question has entered my mind, I have tended to come back to the reaping/sowing allegory. If Caesar is sowing benevolence, then Caesar will reap favor. If Caeser is sowing tyranny, then Caesar will reap opposition. How else can you explain the American Revolution enabled by many Believers?
Also, I have never looked at it in the angle that Joel explained. That seems to also ring true from the sense that everything is truly from God and that Caesar really has nothing.
So, the question in my mind is to discern when God has ceased to bestow His authority on a government. Letting human understanding oppose God's agenda is an easy trap to fall into if we do not heed Kathleen's words of wisdom.
-- Mike O (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 2000.
I understand patriotism and it is truly noble when filtered thru moderation. However, the example of our Lord was that governments are worldly and nothing they do or say will matter anyhow. I believe, anyone that believes following a government edict is a Holy cause will be sorely disappointed at judgement. Even Pilate, a Roman Governor, knew he had screwed up thus the "Washing of Hands".
Picture, if you will, 250,000,000 americans showing up at heavens gate --waving flags and chanting- "we were the best country on earth ! God would fall off his throne, laughing out loud ! I understand the arrogance of americans but I assure you in God's eyes we are the worst of the world not the best. Let me be first to say that we are the worst of sinners ! We have been given more and done the least with it ! Please believe me, That Flag and Flag Decal won't get you into Heaven Anymore !
Now the question of submission to authority has been raised. I for one say that submission is only required when they adhere to God's policies. The present government has nothing in common with God ! Their policies and Gods couldn't be further from each other. So given the choice as a free man living to follow God or man than I say to you---As for others, I cannot speak but, As for me and this Farm we will serve the Lord !
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 28, 2000.
I've been really busy, so I haven't been on for quite some time. I just want to say one thing in response to Joel's response. We are to submit to authority, not so long as they adhere to God's Word, but so long as they don't order us to do anything against it. I'm a bit concerned about your statement that we are given a choice between God and man. We are commanded in Peter to obey the authority put over us by God. By respecting the government we are serving God. Also, I'm not sure that a depiction of God falling of His throne because of laughing is appropriate. Ada...in response to your question, there can only be 1 meaning and that is exactly what Christ says. "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, what is God's."
-- Abigail F. (email@example.com), August 28, 2000.
We are our own Ceasar! This government recieves it's just powers by the consent of the governed. Therefore we are our own Ceasar. And since lately the ratification of the income tax has been called into question, the whole question maybe moot. If I pay taxes to an immoral government that is run by me, am I not immoral?
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 2000.
I am not exactly arguing for normative ethical relativism here, but hey, we don't agree on what's the right thing to do even on this forum, let alone as a nation (as if most people even cared, which I have yet to be convinced of.) We are a very diverse population...how do we make the right decisions for the greatest number of people? I can't see it as ever being possible to make all people satisfied with their government...if we were a nation of three people, we would probably disagree most of the time on some matter of governance!
I plead for participation, wisdom, and a good dose of tolerance. Love thy neighbor was another Jesus message, if I remember correctly.
Render unto Caesar that which we have enabled Caesar to collect; otherwise work to fix the system, and love your neighbor! At least if you do your best, you can arguably justify your complaint. Otherwise, it's just whining....
-- sheepish (email@example.com), August 28, 2000.
No surprises here. I agree with Joel and Lil Bit 100%.
Yes, the government needs taxes to function. The question of this issue lies for me in the fact that we are supposed to be self-governed and through many abuses too numerous to even begin to list that is in NO way the case any longer.
There is a point where the injustices and evils done in the name of "preserving the peace" or "keeping our children safe" must be called into question. When the government has no need to follow the law of the land (the Constitution) and has created a number of positions which are extra legal, essentially allowing unchecked authority over everything, it needs to be taken back and brought into line by it's owners....you and I. If we can't do it peaceably, we still must do it. It's our responsibility.
Again, one of the oldest techniques of war is to starve your opponent out. If 2 million Americans sent their IRS report cards back with the words "Conscientious Objector" scrawled in bold red ink across the page, do you think the media could ignore it? Do you think the "officials" could ignore it? That 2 million would engender 10 million others just by bringing the whole thing to light.
It really doesn't take a majority to win a war, it just takes unwavering adherence to an ethical stand. It honestly seems to me that our "government" has already declared war on it's citizens. Think about it for a second, Waco, Ruby Ridge, non warranted search and seizure,breaking into houses in the middle of the night and killing innocent people who "might" be reaching for a weapon to defend themselves, restrictions on firearms to free people, approximately 50% taxation on incomes through legal and illegal means, refusal to turn over evidence in a court of law, violation of Posse Comitatus, , CIA bringing in drugs and FBi and local police arresting and incarcerating people for having them, passing a law in LA that it's NOW illegal to plant evidence, it goes on and on. Doesn't sound like anything I feel morally compelled to support. How about you? A friend of mine asked me recently, and in all seriousness, when we were discussing the standoff in Trinidad and some of the above, "Well, what do you think Christ would have done?" First thing that came into my mind "Be killed for standing against it."
God owns it all. I'd like to give it back to Him.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 28, 2000.
Try living in another country before griping about our system of taxation. I agree...I despise the fact that so much of our money goes to causes that I am morally, ethically against; but thats where "writing your congressman" comes in. (smile). May sound like small beans but it's my little voice; you know? As far as not paying any taxes, if one decides to go that route I would encourage them to NOT travel our public roads and highways, NOT call the police in extreme situations, NOT heed tornado warnings, etc. All services to the public paid for by TAXES.
-- Beth Weber (email@example.com), August 29, 2000.
Beth, I think you misunderstand a little bit. The parameters that were outlined in the Constituition are the absolute best parameters that MAN can set up for governance. No other country has the Constitution that we do. The reason this form of government worked to begin with was that a majority of the population honestly desired righteousness. In order for the Constitution to remain viable, that seems to be a necessity. However, that last statement is purely personal opinion.
My "gripe" is not against taxes as such but against the massive abuses by those who have a vested financial interst in their collection. Any government must collect taxes, but they shouldn't be onerous and they should not be misappropriated.
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 29, 2000.
I just think that,unless people are so thoroughly disgruntled with the system that they are willing to stand up en mass, (such as the Boston Tea Party,) one has to have a balanced response to issues such as this. Yeah, thats pure opinion! (smile). I just became "enlightened" to the fact recently that I am a tax collector for the state of Kansas. In operating my own business I am required to collect 5.9% sales tax on all of our sales. Its something that I knew...but didn'tknow...if you know what I mean. I think it stinks! You wouldn't believe all of the obscure taxes they hit the small business owner with!
-- Beth Weber (email@example.com), August 29, 2000.
Everytime the biblical lesson of authority is raised in the scripture there is also a warning to the authority. Wifes submit to your husbands ?--husbands HONOR your wife. Children, Honor thy parents ?--Parents, do not bring your children to anger. Servants obey thy master ? --Masters be good unto thy servants. Jesus told Pilate his authority came to him from far beyond and sent the poor governor into a spin.
I also tell you--Your government has no authority over you, except that which God gives it ! The day you feel the need to say "ENOUGH, I will submit no more " is also given to you by God ! Boston Tea, anyone ?
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 30, 2000.
Let me get this straight. Are you saying that we only need to obey when we feel like it? I do believe that when the government is asking us to do something contrary to the Holy Word of God, we are told by God to put our foot down. For instance, when and if I become a wife and mother there are certain things which I believe are a must when raising children. I sincerely believe that God commands us in Deuteronomy to teach our children at home and give them a firm Christian education. I also believe that for some children, spanking is an essential discipline tool. If the the government forbids me to do either of those things. I will not submit to their commands, but will rather do what God commands. That is my firm belief. As far as I understand, you are saying that if we don't agree with something the government is doing, even if it is not forbidden by the Bible, we can just stand for our 'rights'. We can never agree, can we Joel :O) I don't think I'll post anymore on this topic, because its like fighting a losing battle. Being the only reformed presbyterian on here is tough :o) Anyway, I don't want to cause a big argument. So that's my 2 cents worth and I'll stick to it. Thanks!
-- Abigail F. (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 30, 2000.
Yes, Abilgail--I am saying for crimes too numerous to mention that the government is no longer a voice of authority. From stealing the rightful owners of this continants land, for ageless murders including Ruby Ridge and Waco and not mentioning the countless slaughters of native americans--This government has forfieted it's right to rule anything ! It has no authority and certainly has none granted by God ! What did God say " here's Ten Commandments --everyone obey them except the House and Senate ?
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 30, 2000.
Joel, This is turning into an interesting discussion, I am not sure I will ever get an answer that will settle it all. But that's ok. To answer your question, I am Dutch. (We emigrated to the USA in 1957 under Eisenhowers refuge act. Never regretted it. By the way, it took a whole lot more to become a citizen then it does now. But that makes for another discussion.)Thanks for asking. I speak with an accent still, did it trickle into my writing? Aagje
-- Aagje Franken (Backyard@AOL.com), August 30, 2000.
this is alittle off the base but here it goes anyway...if you live in the state of maryland or pay fed. taxes here is what some of our money has gone to over the last 3 yrs.: both state and fed. guys showing up at my house to "look" around investigating things such as a slaughter house, unfit fences, to many animals, no fed, no water, a compost pile that "stank", a light on a building and a fence blocking a view. all complaints made w/ out the need to give a name. you also have paid for judges to sit on the bench to hear about flood lights, killing an animal for attacking livestock, goats eating my own trees and a few other things.you also paid for all the folks who had to do the paper work involved in these cases, the parking garage, the guards,and court workers. you also paid for her to have a lawyer. we were found not guilty on more then 10 charges,not included all the animal control charges. as far as i know god never said it was a sin to live on a farm.
-- renee oneill (email@example.com), August 30, 2000.
Could someone help me and show where in the scipture is, the 11th commandment ? Surely somewhere in the scripture it must say " Thou shalt raise large armies with nucluer missles to trample the citizens of the world under your feet" and the 12th--" Thou shalt create squads of pure blooded killers to murder anyone one that does not conform to the edicts of the government "!
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 31, 2000.
I knew I said I wasn't going to respond again, but I just wanted to say one more thing. Joel, by doing those things is the government causing YOU sin? I realize that the government has wandered far from God and that they make terrible mistakes and sin, BUT what is that to you. If you are being persecuted, rejoice as the Bible says! You are not responsible for anyone else's sin, only your own. You are called to admonish your brother for sin, but you cannot repent of it yourself and try to change that. Christians are to live by example, reflecting Christ. You said once a long time ago in another discussion that you live by the theif on the cross. How about living by Christ on the cross. He stood and endured worse torment and discomfort at that time than you will ever recieve in your entire life. He could have killed them all with a single word or motion. Did He? No, He submitted to the Will of the Father. May we follow His Holy and perfect example!
-- Abigail F. (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 31, 2000.
I have been doing an interesting Bible study on tithing. Biblically speaking, tithing is NOT about money. It is about fellowship and glorification of God. To the Pharasees, it was about money but they were Pharasees.
Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. Is the face of God printed on your money? Didn't God give you so much more than money?
If the government is ripping you off, and all you have belongs to God, then the government is ripping off God and that certainly is on their own heads. Should we have a holy war over it? I don't think God has called me to that place yet. Should we exercise the few constitutional rights we have left to push the government off our backs? Absolutely!
Look at what the government cannot take away from you! They cannot take away your salvation. They cannot take away truth, knowledge or wisdom. They cannot even take away your birthday! The fruits of the Spirit are beyond the grasp of law!
-- Laura (email@example.com), August 31, 2000.
Joel, what Abigail said about surrendering to the Will of the Father is right on. You have such a sense of right and wrong, compassion for this country and knowledge. IF you would surrender this and the anger and frustration to God, He would give it back to you in a better way. You wouldn't feel the frustration that comes across in your responses. You would see the answers that your seeking more clearly. God gave you a wonderful gift, He's just waiting to perfect it in you.
-- Cindy (firstname.lastname@example.org), August 31, 2000.
I have thought and studied a lot about this particular subject. This is the question I have come back to time and time again. Are you willing to say that all the christians who participated in the formation of this country were sinning because of their participation? Because it seems to me that the colonists had less reason to thwart their government than we do today. If we were to list the crimes of this government against her citizens the listed crimes would be much more egregious than those listed against the King of England in 1776. I personally think this has very little to do with Christians today wanting to follow God and everything to do with the fact that Christians today don't want their little world interupted to restore the law in our Country. I also think it is horrible to use God as an excuse for our lack of courage. If you read what Christians had to say about Freedom and the quest for freedom in 1776, you can easily see that they had prayed and felt it was God's will. If it were not true how do you explain the blessings God has bestowed on this country? Ask yourself how a little ragtag army of farmers and mechants defeated the mighty British Army without the blessing of God? I think it is bogus to claim that Christians should sit by and allow themselves to pay for the attrocities of a government that is no longer obeying it's own laws. To me this is the greatest hypocrisy.
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), August 31, 2000.
I think Abigail 's and Laura's posts are full of good thoughts ! However, like LBF said--some men are called to do things contrary to the understanding of man. Judas had a purpose--he was pre ordained to fulfill the scripture. He couldn't have changed his mind if he wanted to. There are many such other men born to this fate--Kennedy, Ghandi, Martin Luther King and (yes, even) Timothy McVie. The colonists used 3% of a population to defeat a King and it will take a smaller % to defeat the criminals who run this show. Since a criminal is basically a coward than they will all run for Switzerland when their army is handed it's first defeat. Some men are born to power nd some are born to conquer power. Most know which they are from birth !
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), August 31, 2000.
Little Bit, if a man prays and God says to take up arms against his oppressors, it would be a sin for hi not to take up arms and fight. If a man prays and God says to wait for His time and His season, it would be a sin for that man to take up arms and fight.
Little Bit, when I read your posts, I picture a young idealistic woman on fire with a cause. I hear your words, but where are your feet going? Some of us have faught small regional holy wars and won because the war was thrust upon us, but at great personal cost. Some of us lost everything we hold dear and still our faith grew stronger. Only through our Savior have these things been restored to us.
What have I learned in my life? We can overthrow a corrupt government by bringing the Lordship of Jesus Christ to one person at a time and waiting on the Lord for His time when He will call us to His battle. Until that time, I will continue to fight for one lost soul at a time. Not because I lack courage, but because I gained Wisdom. But then maybe, I'm just subversive!:)
-- Laura (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 01, 2000.
Yes, Laura, each person is given a talent and saving souls may well be yours ! LBF's talent is she is great at research and proclamation. I cannot save souls or negotiate peace. I have several talents, also granted to me by God. I can shoot the eyes out of a hawk as it buckets in a wind at 400 yards and I can live in luxury in a climate where most grown men curse God and cry for their mothers. God has a purpose for all of us !
"There is a time for everything" my bible tells me. A time to plant and harvest and I love that ! There is also a time to kill. As Laura said --some us await God's command to do away with Ceasar. This country was raised up by men of God and destroyed from within by a cancer called greed. It will be toppled by men of God for the Glory of God.
There is a storm brewing in Texas where God and man will collide. George w has called back the tanks till he is elected. After the election will come a great storm to test this theory "who is our Ceasar". I intend to help the Gray's and I have many men and more firepower than you have witnessed in other government murder scenes. So, those of you that pray--pray unceasingly. Those of you that save souls--save your "King George". Let LBF research the legality of what we do and let Doreen and Ratdogs keep me informed. As for me and the talents God has given me---May God have mercy on their souls !
-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), September 01, 2000.
>>>There is a time for everything" my bible tells me. A time to plant >>>and harvest and I love that! There is also a time to kill.
This is not a person in whom the Holy Spirit is speaking through. The Bible I have, Says do not kill! It also says love your enemies, and do good to those who persecute you! If someone strikes you on one cheek, give them the other. A Christian is to learn & follow from His Master/Teacher/Savior Jesus!
Some of you will know doubt let me have it with your words of opposition, go ahead but I want to ask you a favor: For those on this list where bad words hurt, please do us all a favor and choose good wholesome words to express yourself.
Thanks Todd <>< IA
-- Todd Osborn (email@example.com), September 01, 2000.
After I became a Christian I often wondered: "What if we had loved our enemies during WW2 instead of fighting then tooth and nail?" Would the end results have been different if as Christians we had demonstrated this kind of faith. Corrie Ten Boom's family did and see what a blessing they became. My family did not and we came thru it all with such intense hatred that took me years to overcome. What's up here? Ada
-- Aagje Franken (Backyard@AOL.com), September 01, 2000.
First of all, when God commanded in the Old testament, "Thou Shalt not Kill!". It meant commit murder. Murder is a personal thing born of hate. Obviously God did not mean simply killing, because he then turned around and ordered the Israelites to do that very thing when they went into the promised land. God does NOT change his mind. That commandment was meant to tell people not to murder people. We are not talking about a personal realationship with a person or persons who hate you for your faith as Christ was speaking of in Matthew 5:44. What I am talking about is restoring law to a lawless people. When the law is broken it is the duty of a law abiding man to restore order. In Peter it says that we are toubmit to the governors that are sent by the King for the punishment of Evil doers. Obviously then Evil doers must be punished. In the case of our Country we have no King, and in fact we are the ones responsible for punishing Evil Doers. This is because we are under a Constitution where the governemnt is "For the people, and By the people" There is nowhere in the Bible that teaches that we should never be a part of political unrest. The Bible does teach, over and over again that we should stand for our faith. When we stand, should we be persecuted for our faith in Christ, then we should love those that persecute us, do good to those that hate us, and pray for those who despitefully use us. There were great Christian men of the past who fought and died bravely to protect their families and preserve the law. This is not a sin. It is a sin however to bring hate in our hearts for those who would hurt us for our faith. If the time comes where I am to be killed for my faith I will not fight. I will stand and ask that god forgive those evil people. I will simply go to glory as Rachel Newhouse did when presented with the same choice. I will not however sit idly by while evil doers make a mockery of the laws that were instituted among us for the preservation of liberty under God. This is wrong and it makes a mockery of the courageous Christian men and women who shed their blood to preserve the Constitution for future generations. The Bible says that God is the institutor of government. If that is so then he instituted this government. When Christians stand by while lawbreakers attempt to destroy what God has instituted, are we not wrong for doing so. I faithfully witness to others about what God has done in my life. I think I have more than shown where my heart is in that regard, and ultimately there will be no perfect peace on earth until Christ returns. I understand that, but I want to preserve for my children the blessings of liberty as those Christian men and women of the past wanted to preserve it for me. Praise God that in their desire to reach others for christ the had the courage to make it possible to reach the world for him by standing for liberty. God brought America into being, and from those committed lives he allowed Americans to open the mission field in areas never reached by the message of Christ. He could have caused the same thing to happen in any other country, but he chose to do it through this one. Praise God that he did! There will come a time when the Church will be carried away, and great evil will be unleashed on the earth. I will witness until that happens, but I will also stand for the freedom of all people to worship, and live as they see fit. Lord come quickly!
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 01, 2000.
I am sorry when I wrote the above post. I included the wrong person's name. Rachel Newhouse is a California central coast college student killed by a man named Rex Krebs. I was referring to Cassie Bernal, Columbine high school student who died for her faith, while reading her bible. You can see her story here: http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/Mountain/1607/bernall.html
Little Bit Farm
-- Little bit Farm (email@example.com), September 01, 2000.
Little Bit, you have spoken for me as well. I do not have time to elaborate, but am in complete agreement. Come on brothers and sisters in Christ, lets stand together...... that our children and the unsaved might not have to wallow in another Sodom amd Gomorrah. We are dutybound to preserve what God has given us. When Christ comes again, it will not be in peace but with a SWORD. Shall we stand idly by, while those who work to destroy what God has established, ( by His grace) gather in thier harvest? And make fertile the ground to readily produce the "harvest" that Christ will come with His sword to destroy? Once Sodom and Gomorrah reached such a degree of "unfaithfulness" & "evil", it seems as tho it became virtually impossible for any to be saved from that enviroment. Yes, as always God had a small remnant, but lets not be a remnent......lets fight to uphold that which is God's. That He may "harvest" many, and Ceasar (world system) may harvest little! God Bless! Wendy
-- Wendy@GraceAcres (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 01, 2000.
Litt Bit, I have a problem with your statement about punishing the Evil Doers. We, as Christians, are to judge each other. We are NOT to judge the world. "Vengence is mine" sayeth the Lord. We can be assured that the Lord's Judgement will start in His own house!
If we topple our Ceasar, how many little Ceasars and civil wars called "Holy" will break out in our fair land? Evil is also done by those hiding behind the name of Jesus. World history teaches us these facts. Just because we are citizens of America and call ourselves Christian does not change our sin nature of man.
Joel, I respect your ideas and your work. I agree with you most of the time, but sometimes you come across seriously battle fatigued. It seems you are fighting your battle in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Remember, Joel, Jesus was betrayed by one of his own. Many people like to poke sticks into the fire, but they don't stand too close if the fire gets too hot and uncomfortable, let alone painful.
EPHESIANS 6:12 FOR WE DO NOT WRESTLE AGAINST FLESH AND BLOOD, BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES, AGAINST POWERS, AGAINST THE RULERS OF DARKNESS OF THIS AGE, AGAINST SPIRITUAL HOSTS OF WICKEDNESS IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES.
See, you can kill the Evil Doers, but you still have the evil. It does not die with the man, it finds another host. For he who sows to his flesh will of his flesh reap corruption. The real battlefield is in the hearts and minds of men.
Joel, I believe it was you who mentioned we should be consciencious objectors with our tax burden. While your method would assure that a good portion of us would become jailhouse ministers, there is a way that is legal and moral and brings glory to God.
CHARITABLE DONATIONS ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE. If you anticipate your tax bill and donate that portion of your wages to feed and clothe the poor and hungry, the widows and fatherless and let them know that you and the Lord love them and care, you will not have to support the ungodly acts performed by the federal government.
Do not think you earn enough money to take deductions? It is like a game of Hearts. Technically, we are supposed to pay taxes on every gain. This includes barters, trades, windfalls and food put on your table that you didn't have to buy. I think there is room for creativity. I do not think the IRS can contest your claim of more income over your w-2. It is their rule to pay taxes on illegal gains and gambling winnings. Any Accountant can help you set up log books to record and document every penny you find in the ditch.
Are their any comments on this system of consciencious objecting of our money going to support sin?
-- Laura (email@example.com), September 01, 2000.
At first when I read this question, I agreed with Joel. Nothing belongs to Caesar. Then I talked it over with my better half, and he pointed out that there ARE some things that weren't created, that belong to Caesar, for example, corporations, which are a fictional entity that technically doesn't exist. He says that the government is like that, a fictional entity that doesn't actually exist. There are people working in the givernment, but they are not the government. These things are Caesar's creations, and if you consider yourself to be a member or a part of it, then you are indeed subject to Caesar and to paying his taxes. If on the other hand, you recognize that these things are a sham, and that the Almighty is your only Sovereign, then He is the one that you owe allegiance to. Caesar wants your money and material wealth, the Almighty desires our obedience, and our hearts and souls. for my part, I cannot in good conscience, finance the sort of atrocities commited by our government, some of them against my own friends, and yes, even against ourselves!
-- Rebekah (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 01, 2000.
Laura, if that is what God puts on your heart to do then I say fine, who am I to argue with God? Not up for that one!!
The thing is that your proposition would only work for self-employed and non quarterly paying individuals. Also, it still gives credence to the corruption that is in the Gov. and gives them the permission , or if you will "consent of the governed", which is how I look at it. To me, the fact that our government has come to the point where it even controls what is said in the pulpit through tax laws, sickens me to no end.
There is a IRS form called a 501-c3 that any church must file to declare itself as a non-profit organization. This filing gives the IRS the right to dictate what is said from the pulpit. Texx Marr's lost his ministry because he refused to comply with the mandates of the Feds to NOT TALK POLITICS FROM THE PULPIT!!!!!! This is one of the things I based my finding a Christian group to worship with on. It took awhile to find one, but I found a group and a man that says, "I am supposed to take a license from the government to do what God telss me to do? Puh- leease."
The Government tells the "church" what they may say and if the government doesn't like what you talk about, they have you over a barrel. It flies in the face of all reason and the first ammendment, yet it is happening and being kept very quiet, because we just would rather think everything is aok and don't want to cause any ruckus, because we are peaceable Christians and that would be unseemly. Look into this, it is the most frightening thing.
There is a church in Indiana that has lost it's building to the Feds because the pastor wouldn't comply with their mandates. I would post the web site for you, but my connection is only intermittent andd it's too troublesome to spend 30 minutes re dialing till I get a decent one! GTE, no gee. Ask your Pastor about the 501c3. Or go to the IRS website and see what you can find on it.
I agree wholeheartedly with Rebekah. The atrocities against God that are being committed by our government will continue and only get worse as time goes on. When have you ever seen a "power broker" give back power they had legislated away from the people?
This is my last comment on this thread, "God is in charge, but we are responsible." I have decided that I am finished with financing those who would continue to enslave us. Up until now I have paid Ceaser his share, but I am not going to give any more credence to their alphabet institutions and illegal by the Constitution laws. If we don't break the cycle, who will? I know that the only thing that will truly change everything here on Earth is Christ's return, but that gives me no excuse to sit here and help the adversary in the manner he understands best.$$$$ It's rather interesting that in tax laws they have a partnership allocation for "material participation". That means that you have financial assets at risk in your partnership. I no longer am willing to be a material participant to slaughter in the name of keeping my garden and little plot of land. It's extortion.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), September 02, 2000.
Tex Marrs did not lose his ministry because he preached politics, he lost his tax exemption. In no way did the government take away his ability to preach. Tex Marrs books and videos were not cheap by any means, especially compared to other ministry materials put out by other orginizations. If the churches were not in the business of collecting Ceasar's money, they could preach anything they wanted. Did you ever hear of Elija, Elisha or even Jesus sticking their hands out saying "Pay me first before I give you the Word of God"?
My problem with overthrowing the government with violence is that you also throw out the entire constitution which leads to anarchy, civil wars and tyranny which is only seen in third world countries today. You don't think all the little Ceasars aren't going to tax you to death at gunpoint to finance their little violent power trips? It seems to me those who are eager for bloody war are those who've never seen battle.
The before mentioned tax plan can work for anyone making enough money to pay taxes, not just the self employed or quarterlies. Trading eggs with your neighbor makes you self employed, anyway. A good tax accountant or tax lawyer is worth talking to if anyone wants to go this way instead of being in a jailhouse ministry.
Also watch where you shop if you do not want to support atrocities. Do you shop at Target? They are owned by Dayton-Hudson which is one of the biggest contributors to Planned Parenthood and and Abortion on Demand. They finance the legal fees to violate the rights of Christians who wish to protest abortions. Do you buy things made in China? Then you are financing forced abortions and the slaughter of Christians. Do you shop at small businesses that have the sign "WE GIVE TO THE UNITED WAY"? They also give to Planned Parenthood and fund abortions for low income women. They also fund Social Service Bureaucracies who take children away from parents with out due process or evidence of abuse. The more funds given them, the more vague their accusations are.
My point is that we, as Christians, have not exhausted our resources to defend our faith, to throw the bums out and protect our constitution, and stop the atrocities.
I am willing to die or face jail for my faith in Jesus Christ, I am willing to die or face jail for the souls and minds and safety of our children, but I am not willing to die or do jail for Ceasar's mammon.
Maybe I am just too subversive!!=;)
-- Laura (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 02, 2000.
Laura, now when I said I wasn't going to say anymore, you called me out again....I agree with you on Texx Marrs book prices and the fact that they didn't take his mouth away, but do you not see the precedent set with that as dangerous? People are giving their right to preach in a traditional setting over to the government through this IRS title, and most don't even realize that!!!!
I know that the IRS cannot stop God, but the point is that our government is doing all it can to stop God. It is flat out wrong according to the foundational documents of this country. It is treasonous, is it not? If we as those who give the consent to our government no longer have the gumption to stand up against the wrongs that they do in our name, what does that say about us?
I DO NOT want war. I cry when I HAVE to kill an animal, I am a great big pansy as far as violence and death goes, and I don't think that we need to string people up , but we need to take action, or deal with the fact that we were too passive to take action in the next couple of years. I still contend that giving the people in power your money is contributing to all of the slaughter that has been mentioned here. How can it be otherwise? It isn't as though we have a say where the money goes, or am I really missing something?
Also, I fail to understand why you reccommend a "good" tax lawyer for trading eggs for zucchinni or what have you. We have way too many laws and several that contradict each other, and honestly, I can't see that throwing more lawyers some more of Ceaser's mammon will help to alleviate that. I know there are some Christian lawyers and I am not trying to disparage their work, it is just a ridiculous bunch of legaleeeaaze already and it has been well demonstrated that the "law" is on the side of the person with the most dinero. So it seems a moot point to me. If you have enough money to buy a good lawyer, you're already head and shoulders above the little guy who is getting his paycheck from Taco Bell docked by Uncle Sam to give most favored trade status to a pack of communist baby killers so they can continue to harvest organs from political dissidents to sell to rich people in America to further their readiness for warring against the Target shoppers in this country. (That just came right out!)
I do not believe that under ANY circumstances will God's Word be stomped out. I do believe that it is already being squashed and legislated into "subversiveness". I am not willing to allow that to continue without a fight.The largest part of the fight IS on a persons knees! I guess I am still idealistic enough to prefer to fight a losing battle than to just sit and watch it like it's a tennis match or something as innocous as that. They're going to have to buy the rope to hang me with, and it will most likely have been made by a Christian slave in China.
-- Doreen (email@example.com), September 02, 2000.
Doreen, you are so funny sometimes! I see you go running off at the fingers like I do! =8-)
Tex Marrs was always in it for the profit. Personally, I would like to see more FOR PROFIT ministries lose their tax exempt status. All those dubious characters on TBN perverting the Word of God for their own gain would be a good start. They are the ones who the secular world sees as Christians. No wonder the persecution has started with them representing us to the world! If the athiests can see through their acts, how come Christians can't?
I think a $50-$100 investment to a tax consultant so that you may support God's work instead of that of a corrupt government is a good use of resources.
There are only four ways to not pay federal income taxes. You can use the tax deductible charity plan, not make enough money to pay taxes, which is easy enough to do, or refuse to pay and rack up bigger legal bills, and end up being a jailhouse minister. The fourth option is death.
I am glad that you cringe at the thought of a bloody war, Doreen, but what IS your plan for not supporting the corrupt federal government with your tax dollars? I gotta know!!!
-- Laura (firstname.lastname@example.org), September 03, 2000.
Laura, Yes, I sometimes just go whacking at the keyboard as though I want it to feel the same angst as I do! As far as my plan goes, it is simply to call the system in place what it is to the perpetuators faces. I think there are too many people who are willing to pretend that these laws have merit and then HIDE from the IRS and be content with their own knowledge that they aren't supporting it. I still think that if people who are disgusted with many of the atrocities being carried out by our inability to stand for what is right, would gird themselves and stand up and say NO, that they would have no choice but to back off. They cannot put us all in jail at once.
Also, if it could be done en masse, it would get more awareness of the total sickness of the situation. It seems that people are aware of some of the problems, like say the China as favored Nation, and some of the things the Chinese government does, but they fail to put the entire picture together as if it were a meal being set in front of you one plate at a time. And there is no complaining to the management about the quality of the fare, or they make an example of you. Then perhaps all the other patrons get to pay for the added seasoning of you, the incorrigible religious zealot whacko survivalist souffle`. It is just astounding what the illusion of freedom can bring to pass.
I already don't make much money, but that doesn't matter, as I still get to contribute quite a bit to this system by driving an older pick up and being alive and not 100% self sufficient. And I don't mind the government doing what it is supposed to do,by protecting the borders and facilitatiting international trade, but I do mind all of the excesses and horrors they support with our money and in our name. The only tax I can try to stop giving them is the income tax. All of the others are Constitutional and figured in at the point of purchase.
It also seems to me that when the IRS can control what is said from the pulpit, that you have a severely limited ability to call people's attention to the full weight of the situation. I am SO thankful for the grace of Christ's gift, yet one more sermon on His grace isn't going to stop the escalation of the tax payer supported murders we have. I mean, look at Operation Rescue. There was a difference being made through peaceful protest, so they went and made a federal offence out of it and suddenly all of the on fire, righteous Christians decided that those babies lives weren't worth a felony record.
I guess what I will do is right a treatise on all of the horrific things we get to support, and then I'll just email it to everyone on earth and get in trouble for spamming folks, then send it off with my resignation to the Head of the IRS and start working on my prison ministry. A 21st Century Declaration of Independence. Are ya wid me, or agin me?
-- Doreen (email@example.com), September 03, 2000.
I'm afraid I'm with you. However, don't join Prison Fellowhip just yet. There are tax protesters everywhere ! One group in Boston hasn't paid a dime in taxes since 1980. They deposit the money in a joint account with IRS and the IRS can't touch it. Ther are no penalties either since it was deposited in a timely fashion.
The general rule of thumb is: If you make less than 30,000 and shutup than you can live your entire life and never file a tax return. The IRS only goes after people who proclaim in the media there refusal to pay. The IRS wouldn't waste their time collecting a 800 dollar bill as their people are more concerned with a million dollar tax fraud.
Stay away from Earned Income Credit. The IRS is on a five year role to stop EIC and most of their focus is on this particular aspect of taxes at the moment.
If not paying taxes is tyranny, than make the most of it ! IRS agents are usually unarmed so, when they show up at your door, just sic the dogs on them ! There is nothing quite as humorous as a college boy running in a 500 dollar suit with a mastiff's teeth firmly embedded in his hindquarters. And if his vehicle just happens to be vandalized because he left it than he should have read the sign---Not Responsible for Theft or Damage to Vehicles on Property !
-- Secretary of War (Joel681@webtv.net), September 03, 2000.
Hi Aagie, I can see how these scriptures could be confusing if we began to apply our "feelings", rationalizing, leaning towards our own understanding. But,,I have to agree with Abigail,,Jesus said, Pay back Caesar's things to Caesar, but God's things to God, period. (Luke 20:25) By the context we know he was talking about paying taxes to government. There are many good services that we recieve from tax money paid in. Of course they do many things with our tax money that we don't like and agree with. However, we are not responsible for how the government uses the taxes so it should not cause us to have a bad conscience. We are not in control of the use of that money. However, we can feel good about the fact that we are following Jesus command. The more Bible knowledge we take in, the better we understand how to apply God's word in our life...Take care, and keep on seeking...
-- Patsy (firstname.lastname@example.org), March 09, 2001.
It kinda bothers me when people represent themselves to be speaking for 'god' or even Jesus. Since it seems hardly no two people can agree on what 'he said', 'she said' maybe we could preface our statements with I think, because that is all you have is an opinion,"I think". Perhaps a trip to Iran where the running of the government is closely aligned with someones interpretation of 'gods word' might give a glimpse of a society run by bigots who are sure THEY are 'right' No thanks
-- jz (email@example.com), March 10, 2001.