I was just wondering if people feel a greater need for college degrees, or some level of college education these days? (For yourself, your kids, or in general). Or perhaps less of a need?

Without going into a moral/religious discussion here (because I would like to focus on that which is related to education which is *other* than that..not because it's not critical), should kids go to college? Should they go to vocational schools instead? Or what other options are there? Do your children plan on staying in the homesteading life?

Do you think college is necessary for job success? Do you think it has any value in and of itself? Did you feel that going/not going to college helped/hindered you?

My nephew is 10, and because of financial reasons, we (extended family) ask these questions. I would be interested in hearing from others. Thanks

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 29, 2000

Answers

Sheepish! From my own point of view and observation, if a person is gonna work out for a livin then they most certainly will need some more education. If they don't- then it's like old duffers [like me] that cannot compete in a high tech world. Seems the rules change every generation or so. What was acceptable 30 years ago just won't work now. Of course there are exceptions -but they ARE the exceptions and not the rule. It breaks my heart to see young folks neglect to further their education and elect rather to get a job just outta hight school, so they can buy that first car. Workin at hard physical labor just 'ain't' what it 's cracked up to be---especially when the old bod is 40 or 50 years old! Encourage all young folks to get at least some college or maybe a trade school. Anything is better than nothin! If they don't--they could end up like me--an OLD dummy! Matt. 24:44

-- hoot (hoot@pcinetwork.com), August 29, 2000.

I think it is important for each person to decide what they want to do with their life and if the need a college degree then get one, if it requires vocational education then get that.

I have 5 kids and 1 is in a university, 1 is in a vocational program that can transfer to a university, 1 is going to a vocation program next spring, 1 is taking classes to get accepted at a university and the other just wants to take classes on subjects that interest her. So as you can see they have all done a variety of things. The older ones just going back to school have been in the workforce and decided that in order to do what they want they have to have a college degree. The youngest is in a vocational program that gives an Associates degree and will transfer if she so desires or get her a job with just that - even if she decides to do something else this particular program will always be useful to her.

Some people do apprenticeship type careers - Tool & die makers are one that comes to mind.

Personally I have 3 years of college and really want that bachelors degree, more for myself than a job. With all of my years of experience in computers, I still get knocked out of consideration for jobs because I don't have a degree - the funny part about that is I have applied for permanent positions at companies and not gotten past the HR department and then been brought in as a consultant at 2-3 times the wages to do the same job.

-- beckie (sunshine_horses@yahoo.com), August 29, 2000.

I'm not sure your question has a definitive answer. Seens to depend on what kids want to get out of life. I have an MBA degree, admittedly in 1972. I think what it showed my eventual employer was I had the capability to get through the program, more than what I actually may have learned.

One thing which has been documented is the higher the level of education, the higher the lifetime earnings.

I encourage kids to do a term in the military before going to college. Not only helps to give them maturity, but also the military will pay for a rather significant amount of college or trade school expenses afterwards. I largely went through college on part-time jobs, the G.I. Bill and a bit of help from the folks.

Basically tell them they have to set a goal and then make plans on how to achieve it.

-- Ken S. in Tn (scharabo@aol.com), August 29, 2000.

Education is a must for everyone. The importance of the college degree would depend on how well you can achieve success. Afew are successful without it, most need the disipline. Some companies are higher 18 yr old with no college degree, but plenty of computer savvy with the understanding that the employer furnishs college education at a later date in exchange for bound employment.

-- Jay Blair (jayblair678@yahoo.com), August 29, 2000.

This is a subject i have spent a lot of time thinking about. I want my kids to do whatever makes them happy. I do not believe that College necessarily means education. I have three years of college. I honestly believe the time I have spent studying and reading on my own have been more valuable to me. If a child wants a career in the sciences or in a technological profession, and he wants to go to college, then he should. Somehow in our society, we've decided that college means character, and unfortunately the two are not synonymous. There are a lot of people in the world with tremendous character who didn't even graduate highschool, much less college. I am raising my children for character. I want them to be kind to others, follow Christ, stand by what they believe. If my children never learned another thing, but they learned that they would be successful. That is more than some people have learned with many years of education. In addition, I think we need to stop teaching our kids to be employees and teach them to be entreprenuers. There are many reasons for this. First of all I firmly believe that in the future that will be the only way that one can be independent. There are two ways that one can circumvent the system. The first way is to make so much money that it doesn't matter how much is taken from you. The second is to make so little that there is none to take. So I want my kids first and foremost to own their own land. Which is why Joe and I are working to insure they will. The second thing I want for my children is to know how to live with very little and provide everything they need. That is why we are feverishly pursuing a homestead lifestyle. Now someday soon all the land maybe turned over to the government, but until then owning property is still the most sure way to independence. I am preparing my children to live in the world of the future. I know what may happen. I don't want them to be prepared to slave away their life for someone else. I want them to work hard to be independent, so that they can live happily. The truly successful people in this society work for themselves, not someone else. College could help my kids goals. It is up to them. Learning is a lifelong job that never stops. You certainly don't need to be locked into a classroom vomitting back what another person is telling you to be educated. A college classroom isn't about the quest for truth, it is about telling someone what they think is truth. When you take a test in college, the teacher doesn't want to hear what you've learned. They want to hear what the told you. I am not saying that some learning cannot take place that way, but I am saying that the great people of the world are those who did it completely different than all those that came before. Many of them flunked out of school entirely. The list is long. Great minds come from those who pursue knowledge and dream of greater things. 90% of what is being done today is built on the backs of great men who did what they did for the joy of it or the necessity of it. What is the last great invention in the last decade that came from someone's mind. Most invention today is just building on what we already had. Has anyone asked themselves why? Perhaps because people quit learning and got "educated". Just my thoughts.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 29, 2000.

Hoot, you are not an old dummy! Sheesh!

Wow. Thanks for your replies. I guess since I live in the thick of all the high tech stuff going on I have seen what looks like so much new innovation and new thinking that it didn't occur to me that these new thinkers were just reinventing stuff. Maybe so.

Hmm. Well, of course, we will let my nephew make his own decision. We just want to be as financially prepared as we all can in case he should decide to go.

I worked and paid for most of my education (7 years undergrad...yeah I was an idiot) + now; and I think that was a benefit. For that reason, it's kind of hard to start saving money but I guess we should. We can always use it for something else.

I loved college personally. I think it taught me to think objectively; to weigh information; to figure out how to find information so I could decide for myself, no matter what the "party line" was. I went to college a long time ago so maybe things have changed. Maybe it was all the philosophy and arts and the fact that society was more experimental. I was encouraged to think on my own and would have been evaluated as some kind of suck-up if I hadnt. I guess I didn't realize quite how much things have changed. In my current college situation, I am so detached from what everyone else is doing that I hadnt noticed.

Thanks for your replies. Any other thoughts?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 29, 2000.

I left home at age 14, although my formal education was interrupted my love of learning hadn't. My classroom changed from the rote learning of facts and drills....to reading Rilke in Washington Square Park (smile). For me...i am a dreamer, a romantic, a poet and a homesteader. My goals in life are to minister the love of God to anyone who will let me (smile). Acclaim, accolades or material sucess does not mean much to me...I find the outpouring of my life to be very satisfying. So for me...persuing much formal education(beyond a few courses in alternative health care,) is not very important. In case anyone is wondering; my husband and i operate our own cafe' where just about everything is homemade. Marty has worked under some great chefs in 4 star kitchens; so he really knows his stuff! --hey-- which leads to another thought--apprenticeship vs. college education? Also...little bit farm; I loved your reply!!!!!!!

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), August 29, 2000.

i never got my degree life got in the way. i hated school so much that when i was done high school i never wanted to back. i was forced to go to high school in the morning and take college classes in the afternoon, my step father thought it would keep me out of trouble. i got into more! 17 and hanging out w/ 20 yr. olds need i say more. do i regret it no do i hope me kids go maybe w/ 4 girls 3 yrs. apart i have already set down the law...weddings will be done in sets of 2 and college will be paid for 1/2 by us 1/2 by them.{its nice to dream}

-- renee oneill (oneillsr@home.com), August 29, 2000.

Sheepish, there is no doubt that the higher the education, the higher the earnings. Study after study has shown that, whether it's a college degree or vocatioonal education.

-- Cash (cash@andcarry.com), August 29, 2000.

College isn't absolutely necessary, but probably some kind of apprenticeship would be helpful if your nephew wants a decent paying job. There are other ways to go, but it takes some looking into. Grace Llewelyn wrote a book, called "The Teenage Liberation Handbook" that talks about "how to quit school and get a real education." On the religious issue, she's prettey blatantly anti-Christian, but if that doesn't bother you, or you can get past it, the book is a great source for educational alternatives for those who choose to not worship at the altar of the almighty degree. Realistically, unless you're looking at self-employement, lack of a degree will mean less pay. How much does that matter? He'll have to answer that one for himself! :-) Anyway, I'll stop for now, instead of going on and on and on!

-- Zerna Beebe (beebedz@juno.com), August 29, 2000.

<"Sheepish, there is no doubt that the higher the education, the higher the earnings. Study after study has shown that, whether it's a college degree or vocatioonal education.">

Right! And of course that is what we are all trying to get for our kids right? Lots of money? First of all, the richest people in the country own businesses. They aren't employees. Yet that is what our colleges are churning out tons of. Of course people like JR Simplot who invented the frozen french fry didn't know how important college was. There are a lot of people who don't like JR Simplot, but this was a man short on education and long on brains. He started with nothing and today you couldn't fit all his holdings in the grand canyon. Higher earnings implies employment. Employment is paid slavery. In my opinion it's best to be the boss.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 29, 2000.

I don't think education is ever wasted. But it should only be reserved for those who are ready for it, who can think for themselves, and still listen to the wisdom (or folly) of others. Too many 18 year olds go off to college to drink and party. That's a waste. I'm not crazy about military service but I've long believed that children should put in 2 years after high school in some kind of public service. Maybe a rotation of 6 months at some good works of their choosing. Most kids have no idea what they want to be and spend time just "getting the paper". Then when they're done they don't want to do what they've studied.

-- Peg (NW WI) (wildwoodfarms@hushmail.com), August 29, 2000.

Here is a link to a great article about Mr. Simplot. Contreversial he is, but man he has a mighty spirit.

http://www.rangemagazine.com/stories/summer98/jr_simplot.htm

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), August 29, 2000.

I just talked to a woman yesterday who started & owns a very successful flower shop, the best one in town, she started when she was 19, that was 17 yrs. ago. A university asked her to speak & they were so impressed, it came up later that she had never gone to college & then they were shocked. She'll tell anyone, do what you are passionate about, if it takes college then go, if it doesn't, then you don't have to worry about paying for it. My husband has a college degree that he doesn't use, makes more money with his own business. Based on my family, the ones with college degrees make less than the ones who skipped higher education & seem to have that entrepreneurial spirit. I don't think education is ever a waste though, & would try to find a way to pay for it if his heart is in a career that requires it.

-- Lenore (archambo@winco.net), August 29, 2000.

Some of these posts make a distinction between a college degree and EDUCATION, but IMHO, not enough. Send me a man who reads, said the old-time business tycoon... and he was right.

There are educated fools. There are people who educated beyond their capacity to understand. And there are people who learn more and more about less and less until they know everything about nothing at all.(PHd---piled higher and deeper).

We used to joke that the main thing we learned in journalism school was that the shiney side of the carbon paper goes on the BACK. (But do kids today even know what carbon paper is? Was the educaion wasted? Maybe... but.)

Having an education, in terms of a degree, is certainly an asset, if youre looking for a job.

But having an EDUCATION, in terms of knowing what makes the world go round, and being able to think, and act, is much more important. And you dont need a degree for that.

On the other hand... most of what I (and I suspect many others) got out of college wasnt what we learned from books and professors. It was the interaction of other minds. (Hmm. Like this forum?) And I do agree with Ken Scharabok Grubhoe (!) that military service can serve the same function. At least it did in the 1950s... I was in the USMC before I went to college, and I think I learned as much with the leathernecks as I did at the University of Wisconsin.

But I learned a whole lot more after (like Hoot, I suspect).

So what it comes down to, do you want to apply for a job and lay out your academic credentials that certify you as smart, or do you want to be a really intelligent, informed, caring person who can handle a wide variety of situations... and life?

Obviously, these arent mututally exclusive. The key is that you continue to LEARN, with or without a college degree. And I still think readng is the main route to learning.

In terms of making money, one of the hot jobs around today is small engine repair. Most kids want to get into law, or computers. Those who don't mind getting their hands dirty and have mechanical apptitudes find auto repair more glamorous. So there ain't nobody around to fix lawnmowers anymore!

But a lawnmower repairman can be a darn fine person, besides making a darn good living.---Jd

-- Jd (belanger@tds.net), August 29, 2000.

My Grandfather was a professor of Romance Languages, my grandmother had a BA in Home Economics & a MA in Psychology (a granny to be reckoned with!), my mother was a professor of English, my cousins all have various degrees, and I spent 7 years at the U of WA and came out with a BA in South Asian Studies. (I never actually got the diploma 'cause I still owe library fines...but the knowledge I do have, and no one has actually ever asked to see the actual paper.) In my family it is abnormal not to go to college. I think it is foolish to go to university with the intent of getting a piece of paper that will buy you a job, but I think it can be very worthwhile if you're studying what your heart wants to study and to hell with the job. My degree qualifies me to wait tables in an Indian restaurant, so I had to invent my own businesses. Given how bad high school is supposed to be these days, it would seem that some more years at university could only improve a person. Vocational schools are fine, too -- the fact is, that it doesn't take much to slide through high school, and if it doesn't take much, then such a kid may not have much to wrangle into a life or career (which is not to say that it can't be done or isn't done all the time, just that one can get a few more tools in college.) And in high school, no one expects anything of you, and what is taught is so general and sanitized and lowest-common-denominator that it is pretty durn useless. And if your nephew does not go to college or some sort of further education, in all likelihood he will feel less smart than someone who did, regardless of the facts.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), August 30, 2000.

No I don't believe it is a must. My brother is a military history whiz. All of which he learned from reading. He is leaving Friday for Ontario to be apprenticed to a blacksmith. He's a hands on guy. My sister listens to him for hours talk about this war in such and such a year and so and so and his intelligent military strategy. May dad says that for people like that, all you need to do is spend a thousand bucks on books, instead of a lot more for a degree. Of course, it all depends on the profession.

-- Abigail F. (treeoflife@sws.nb.ca), August 30, 2000.

I agree totally with Little Bit Farm. You dont need a sheepskin to be well educated. And I'd even suggest the best educated is the self taught because they tend to learn to think on their own, not to just regurgitate. If you however want to work in some particular area that requires a sheepskin, then you have to decide if its worth jumping through all the hoops.

As to most people having an "employee" mentality, its very true. Our mandatory primary education system is set up to indoctrinate children into this mindset. We for sure are NOT taught how to manage money or to think of money as capital(necessary to be an entrepeneur). We are taught to be peons for the corporations and to be mega-consumers.

-- Hermit John (ozarkhermit@pleasedontspamme.com), August 30, 2000.

I heard this a couple of years ago: "People who say money can't buy happiness simply don't know where to shop."

I am financially secure simply because I was in the right place at the right time and bought stock in a technology company which has now become the gorilla of its field. Am I more happy as a result, probably not, but it is sure nice to know I'm not two missed paychecks away from being broke.

When I was an employee, I mostly hated the job. I basically prostituted myself since I knew I was working towards my ultimate objective, which was this cattle farm. I retired with a nice pension and excellent health benefits when I was 47, which ain't bad. It was my goal and I achieved it.

That is why I said it is up to kids to determine what they want out of life and then determine the steps necessary to achieve it. For some it may be becoming a manager at McDonalds. For others it may be production line work. For still others it may be starting their own business when they have the financial resources to do so.

All you can do is a bit of guiding. They have to find their ultimate life plan.

-- Ken S. in TN (scharabo@aol.com), August 30, 2000.

Sheepish, what a plethora of responses! I have nieces and nephews hitting the college age right now and have spent a fair amount of time thinking about the subject. I went to college but dropped out after 2 years because what I was interested in doing wasn't going to make me any more dinero than just a regular old middle management job with no degree. Ah, the Liberal Arts! I think it is most important what the individual in question wants to do regardless of income potential, and "future" in the business sense. If you're happy then you will have quality of life. I think looking at a random sampling of 10 people and their degrees and what they are doing now might be helpful. Here goes:

1) PR & Mass Communications Double Major= Co owner of Silk Screen Co. 2) Artificial Intelligence= Plays in a rave band 3) Mechanical Engineering= Working for the Sate if Wi in sewer building right now; other projects as well (I am not disparaging the job!) 4) Music Major= works in office of cosmetics co. 5) Music Major= Works on sound for movies in Hollywood 6) Phys Ed= Graphic Designer 7) Journalism= Computer programmer 8) Forestry Major= Works on dairy farm 9) Poli Sci./ Russian/ Education= Restores antique boats 10) Business Major= Regional manager for small fast food chain

So it can go any way at all! It really depends on the individual and if a person wants an education they can get it for free if they can read and have a solid foundation.

-- Doreen (liberty546@hotmail.com), August 30, 2000.

I heard a speech on tv a few years ago, If I remember right, it was Cliff Stoll, author of "The Cuckoo's Egg." He was talking about the job market. This was back when the World Wide Web was fist making a really big impression on business. He mentioned all of the new programmers that collages were cranking out. How they all were getting jobs programming for the WWW. $20 per hour, $30 per hour, some even $40 per hour or more. Then he paused and got a troubled look on his face and started telling about his backed up sink. And how his plumber charged $75 per hour.

Like Jd said, were putting so much emphasis on high-tech, collage-required jobs that there is a labor shortage for many jobs where vo-tech training or apprenticeships are sufficient.

I think it was on this forum some weeks ago that somebody asked what the purpose of education was anyhow. I said at the time and will repeat now: Education is to increase a person's options. Once you know what option you want, education starts limiting your options--at least if you are going to actually use the education.

And all of the above is pretty much based on the standard American assumption that success is measured in dollars. If the kid has a dream, I would encourage him to pursue it in as direct manor as possible, while keeping other options open. I.E. not having a high school diploma (even a GED) limits you so much that I would never recommend anybody drop out of HS to chase a dream. But if the dream is there and collage isn't needed to pursue it, then by all means skip the collage and get one with life.

If he does not have a dream, collage may be a good place to learn about other options.

Since this question was based at least in part on saving for collage, let me say that the savings would not be wasted if he does not use them for conventional tuition. There was a pizza shop with in walking distance of where I once lived, so I ate there a lot. It was owned by a girl who had worked there part-time in highschool. Around the time she graduated, the guy who owned the restaurant decided to retire. She talked he parents into letting her use her collage savings for the down payment. After successfully running the business for 4 or 5 years she decided that if she could improve such a little business so much, she should aim for bigger things and sold the store and went to collage. I don't know what became of her, but in her case she undoubtably learned more with her tuition money than if she had gone straight to school.

-- paul (p@ledgewood-consulting.com), August 30, 2000.

Thanks to you all. On further thinking, part of the reason that I am asking these questions, I guess, is whether or not there is anything intrinsically valuable about a college education irrespective of the job market. When I was in college (most of the 1970's) I took classes that interested me; changed majors 2 or 3 times; took my elective classes pass/fail (who cared about gradepoint averages then?)and enjoyed being exposed to all the fascinating viewpoints of people who came from backgrounds so different than mine.

I used my degree for a few years. Then my college degree became simply a requirement for subsequent jobs/promotions and not directly related to the content of my job as such.

These days with so much information readily available on the internet, it would seem that just getting information is easy. But how does one get knowledge? (I won't even ask the question about wisdom!)

College exposed me to stuff I didn't WANT to learn, but had to take courses in to get out of school. For that reason, I learned things that I would never have chosen to, but in fact, maybe benefitted the most from in some ways. If I was self-educating, I don't think I would have taken Physics, Biology, Geology, Chemistry, and Math!! Nor Economics, History of Western Civilization, etc. Don't ask me how that all helps me now, but I know that it does! (Maybe I should lecture my sheep on Charlemagne or discuss the the ways that minerals precipitate out at various temperatures?)LOL...Real practical application stuff, that!

Guess I'm just rambling here, but I think the posts about the exposure from being in the military and the EDUCATION part of it are getting close.

Of course, like all caring parents/aunts, etc., I want my nephew to be happy in his life. He is an avid reader so I guess maybe he will be able to have the choice to go to college, if it is affordable. Sure more expensive than when I went, even adjusted for today's dollars. Who knows. I would be very happy if he were a small engine repair person, if he was happy! I would be happy if *I* were!!! Thanks again!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), August 30, 2000.

Don't forget--Bill Gates never got a sheepskin!

Then there's the book title "Do what you love, the money will follow."

I once read somewhere that parents would be better off buying their offspring a house than paying for a college degree.

-- Sandy (smd2@netzero.net), August 30, 2000.

First it starts with instilling a work ethic into these kids, flipping burgers etc. is the fastest way I know to teach kids that without college their is no stair step to the higher paying jobs. My oldest is finished with college for now and wouldn't be able to advance in her company with college. My middle dauther is already being courted by colleges. Son will go to college, at least that is his goal, though he will be one of the lucky ones who could fall back on the family business. There are quite literally thousands of scholarships in which to apply, financial aide both for free and in loans are out there for the taking, and anybody can go to school. Make sure that the 2 year college that you pick for your core classes "Really" will be transfered to a University program, don't believe the college, ask the University first. I taught my children that after High school is college, most folks just teach their children that a High School diploma is the goal. If a child can't get high enough scores on SAT or ACT than yes a vocational school is their next best bet, but even with that you are stuck in most fields at entry level jobs, needing more education for promotion. Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), August 30, 2000.

It depends on what the person hopes to achieve in life. If they plan to spend their life working for other people, then a college degree or a skilled trade is a must. I learned this partially from experience. I graduated from high school with stenography and typing skills which meant I could get a decent job so there was no way you could convince me to go to college. After four years of being a Secretary I realized that I was just as smart as a lot of people around me who were making a lot more money. But the doors wouldn't open because I didn't have a degree. So I went to college nights while I worked full time in the day to pay for it. It took me seven years to do it but it opened a door for me that has made me successful, financially, beyond my wildest imagination. Did I learn anything in college that I needed to do this new career? Nope. I learned through on the job training but the degree got me the entry level position and I worked my way up. I am a voracious reader and love to learn about most anything and that has been more valuable than my college degree but I wouldn't have had the opportunities had I not had it. And I am now 46 years old and I believe that college degrees are now becoming as common as high school diplomas were to my generation so I think it will be even more difficult for young people now if they don't have a college degree or a skilled trade. If an employer has two people apply for the same job and one is a high school graduate and one is a college graduate, nine times out of ten they will choose the college graduate.

Incidentally, the career field I now have such a successful job in? Human Resources. I am the Employment and Training manager supervising the staff that does all of the hiring and training for the federal agency I work for so I know what I'm talking about. Please encourage them to get the degree or a skilled trade apprenticeship. It will make a big difference in their opportunities in life.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), August 30, 2000.

Hi, Sheepish. I value education for it's own sake. Ideally, I would have stayed in college forever. As it happened, I had 230 credits and two children before I finally acquiesced and graduated.

My four children will be strongly encouraged and supported as much as possible so that there education can continue for as long as their lives can fit it in. I don't particularily care if my daughter wants to be a trash collector, but she can be an enlightened trash collector. She can learn at the library, too, and we do go to the public library once a week, but college has structure and a syllabus.

If my kids fall in love with a career, as I did, that requires a degree, then they can major in that. If they don't, they can major in Greek mythology for all I care. Ignorance is bliss. Knowledge is power. There are reasons for these catch phrases.

Income and by extension, an easier time getting whatever stuff you want to get, or finance whatever causes you want to finance, etc. goes to those that know a skill. Obviously, post-secondary education will enable my kids to have a skill that makes them valuable to society.

I'm studying something all the time. I nearly always read non- fiction. This week, it's Shiatsu. However a love of learning was instilled in me, it seems I am lucky to have passed it on to my children.

Nice topic. Hope your Summer is rounding out well, Sheepish.

-- Rachel (rldk@hotmail.com), August 30, 2000.

J D nice to see you on the forum. Hoot your never to old to go to college, you could take one or two classes[ maybe a writing class, heck you could help teach it]When I was In college the help from the older people who were there to brush up was invaluable.

-- kathy h (saddlebronc@msn.com), August 30, 2000.

Hello,

I'd just like to add a few things:

1.It wouldn't hurt to save the money regardless...

2.Which way does your nephew lean?What are his strengths?What does he enjoy?

3.Discipline is so exceedingly important imho.[even during the study of things you enjoy it is required.How much more is it with those things you don't particularly enjoy?]If he lacks discipline at all, help to instill some.

I'm probably-no,I'm certainly not the best one to advise you on such a matter.As for myself,you see, I barely escaped high school.I hated it with a passion.During any given week,I was absent 2 or three days. [I forged my own excuses.]School was extremely BORING for me,and I had not the discipline nor the vision to participate.I had wonderful,sweet teachers who kindly and most concernedly lectured me frequently on my wasted abilities.I had friends who loved me-despite the fact that I wasn't the sort of friend I should've been[Some of my friends were Christians;I was an atheist].Now,I'm such a different person(thank the Lord!);I'm sure I'd love college now(a Christian one to be sure).

On another note: My dad(50)is in his second year of college.He's studying to be a teacher-in addition to working full time and taking care of my sister's children(well,that's mostly my mom)pretty much 24hrs.a day.He is a retired missile technician for the Navy;he also did a lot of teaching for the Navy.He has exceptional people and managerial skills and yet the best job he could find upon retiring was as a supervising janitor!Military experience just doesn't count for some people...However,it is that military discipline that is enabling my dad to do all this.Oh,did I mention he's on the Dean's List nearly everytime!

Well,God bless & goodnight,~~~Tracy~~~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 31, 2000.

Oops! Don't want to come off as snobbish.I see nothing at all wrong with being a maintenance worker/janitor.It's just that my dad was living in a high cost of living area(Charleston,SC) and he needed a better paying job.He loved his work there though:his crew,the grounds he helped lanscape,the kids(especially the down and out sort that he tried to encourage).Sorry if I offended anyone-it surely wasn't intended!You just hate to know that your parents are strapped... Goodnight again,~Tracy~

-- Tracy Jo Neff (tntneff@ifriendly.com), August 31, 2000.

I think having a college degree is important if you're going into a job where it is absolutely necessary. But I think companies that require one for any kind of advancement are wrong. My dad started out on the railroad many years ago as an engineer. He worked his way up to one of the top officials. The railroad had started a policy (I think in the late 70's) of ONLY promoting people who had a college education. They hired people right out of college who had absolutely no knowledge of how a railroad worked. This brought about resentment from the people who had been working for the railroad for years, couldn't get promoted, and then had to take orders from a person who didn't know a switch from a toaster. And today, years after my dad retired, the railroad is in a mess. College has it's place, but just because someone has their college degree, does not make them more qualified for many jobs. It's too bad most corporations bought into it, they're missing out on the most important assest they have. Their regular employees.

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), August 31, 2000.

Bill Gates doesn't have a sheepskin? Perhaps if he had, he might have had to be exposed to a course or two in business ethics...

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), August 31, 2000.

Snoozy...I think he dropped out of Yale his senior year. He also went to Lakeside here in Seattle...private school. Anyway, he just didn't finish so he didn't get his degree.

Doesn't it make you wince to write sheepskin? LOL

-- (rborgo@gte.net), August 31, 2000.

Sheepish,

I've done about a million different things in my life and spent quite a bit of time in school. I spent many years following my heart, doing what seemed most interesting without concern for monetary compensation. After all that, for me, the bottom line is this. It's a lot easier and quicker (less wasted life) to pursue new directions and interests if you aren't financially strapped.

The first, most important thing for kids to have is a way to make some pretty good money. Then, if they want to, they can pursue things that may not make as much money, but are more interesting to them. If they go broke doing that, they always have the option of going back to the old income-producing job to make enough money to pursue something else that may interest them. Otherwise, life becomes a constant struggle for survival, without many options. (Personal experience speaking here.)

Being in the middle of high-tech land, it would seem like a good idea to encourage developing skills in that direction, if there is any interest there at all. The pay is relatively high, and as I said before, you can always choose to earn LESS money.

-- Laura Jensen (lauraj@seedlaw.com), September 01, 2000.

Just my 2 cents worth. Everyone that I know of that has gone into the trades (electrician, plumber, HVAC, carpenter, roofer, etc.) has done quite well for themselves, and have been able to relocate just about anywhere in this country and find enough work to support themselves and their families. Those who went to get their BA or Master are now working in totally unrelated fields, or is under/un-employed.

I think it stinks, but the BA (or 5 years of related work experience!) is an absolute minimum in today's world, unless you're blessed and are given a good job that will allow you to "grow". And if you are in the trades and ever want / have to leave the trades, you need that stinkin' piece of paper. I have been blessed, and even though I only have an AS (which I never use either), I have been able to "move up" and provide decently for my family.

-- Eric in TN (ems@nac.net), September 01, 2000.

I think, Sheepish, that you've already answered your own question: that it is exposure to ideas and knowledge that you would otherwise not have had exposure to that make higher education worthwhile. The problem with going to school for a job ticket is that you are only trained to work for someone else - our whole educational system is designed to make suitable employees. Formerly for factories, now for corporations.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), September 01, 2000.

Some jobs require college - at least vo-tech college - mine, for example, which is nursing, requires a 2 yr AAS degree to be liscensed as a registered nurse. The ANA is trying to change the rules so that only BSN (4 yr) holders are RNs. And they wonder why they have so few members that have AAS degrees. But I digress.

If your nephew wants to do something that will require a degree, then, he will, of course, have to go to college. Save the money anyway - if he decides to do something that doesn't require a degree, he can use it for a house, or whatever. I would never prepay college tuition, as some folks are doing today - who knows what a child will want to do in the future? I don't even know what I want to be when I grow up!!

My ex is very successful in his own business - HVAC and commercial refridgeration. He also dropped out of high school when he was 16, then went back a year later, while working nights in a factory, and graduated - to a standing ovation. He is one of those rare mechanical geniuses - he could lay his hand on a piece of equipment in a factory and then go right to the problem, just by the way the machine felt to him. In fact, the only thing that I've ever found that the man couldn't do, was get along with women. (I was wife #2, and lasted the longest at 8 years)

When I decided I wanted to be a nurse, I worked night shift in a factory and went to nursing school during the day, in spite of the director of the nursing school telling me it couldn't be done. Or perhaps, because she told me that.

What I'm trying to say, is that determination and ambition and self knowledge are more important to success that a piece of paper - but if you gotta have that piece of paper to get in the door......well, go get it - as fast and as cheaply as you can.

-- Polly (tigger@moultrie.com), September 03, 2000.

From a dollar/pay standpoint a person will a college degree will make more money at the same job as someone without a degree.

I think it really depends on what they want to do with their life. Some jobs a jouryman/apprentice exerience may be far better than what any college could offer. Someones drive, If they are very motivated and can flex into any situation a college degree may be less of an issue than someone who need the direction a person can get in college. If your planning on heading straight to the top of the corporate ladder then college would be needed. If your happy doing a good job for a fair wage lower down the ladder a degree may not be needed.

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), September 05, 2000.

I think apprenticing is ideal. College is great for some, no matter what the age, and unnecesary for others. Some people are better self- taught. My husband can learn anything by just doing it. Depends on what you want to do. Just keep learning.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), September 05, 2000.