Hello eveyone,

My Dad is "caught up" in the end time theories of a lot of Protestant teachings. He has tapes and books on the subject but he feels "Left Behind" with unanswered questions. He is seeking truth. I am trying to find information concerning the Churches teachings on "The End Times", specifically the "tribulations", "rapture" and the "1,000 year reign" of Christ on Earth.

Thanks,

-- Michael (pickandpen@aol.com), September 06, 2000

Answers

Excelsior

-- aaa (a@a.a), September 06, 2000.

Hello, Michael.
Sorry that it has taken so long for anyone to answer you. I suspect it may be because it is not a topic in the forefront of many Catholics' minds. They take seriously Jesus's admonitions that only the Father knows that day, and the hour, that each day has troubles enough of its own, and that our main concern should be to stay prepared, with our "lamps full of oil" (like the wise virgins).

Anyway, I remembered that this topic had come up on other threads earlier this year, so I decided to track them down and copy for you some excerpts that various people have written. Ready? Go ...

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The various Fundamentalist theologies of the "end times" (literal rapture long before world's end, literal 1,000-year reign of Christ, etc.) were never believed by Christians throughout history. These theories date only to the early 1800s, when an imaginative Protestant clergyman misinterpreted some verses from St. Paul and Revelation.

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[Intense concentration on "end times" thought and writings] is not a good idea for any Christian, because it can inflict an unhealthy fear related to things that are not going to happen. It also tends to keep people constantly thinking about the end of the world and looking for signs of it, fooling them into thinking they can predict the end -- contrary to Jesus's statements.

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We are called upon simply to keep in the back of our minds the fact that the end of the world (or the end of our individual lives) can some one second from now, and that therefore we need to be prepared by staying in a state of sanctifying grace -- sacramentally confessing our mortal sins. If we keep our souls "clean," we need never think about any sensational and unreliable theories.

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The thought of being "left behind" is tied to a 19th-century misinterpretation of scriptures. It actually involves an artificial merging of parts of Revelation with a pair of verses in St. Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians. The fundamentalist idea of a "rapture" and a coming "millennial" reign, with folks being "left behind," is contrary to traditional Catholic belief. Not even Protestants from 1520 to 1820 believed such things.

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Though it is not a defined Catholic dogma [it never needed to be], there has been a preponderant Church belief, through these 2000 years, that we are now living in "The Millennium," which is a symbolic term that refers to the entire Christian era -- the reign of Christ -- from the Ascension until the coming of Jesus at the end of the world.

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The word "rapture" comes from the Latin "rapiemur," which means "we will be caught up" (literally, "taken"). This word is found in the famous (400 a.d.) Latin Vulgate translation of the New Testament by the Catholic priest, St. Jerome -- ironically, not a Bible version that fundamentalists use today. In this (1 Thes 4) passage about the end of the world, St. Jerome translated the original Greek as: "17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus" -- "16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

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Anyone writer can go to one of the few "apocalyptic" books of the Bible that have tons of symbols in them (Daniel, Ezekiel, Revelation) and come up with an imaginative explanation of the symbols. Then anyone who hears/reads that explanation can check it against the Bible verses, become convinced that the other person is probably right, and begin to live his/her life accordingly. But when this kind of thing is done, both people are playing a deadly game -- private interpretation of the scriptures without recourse to the Catholic Church's Traditional understanding of the passages involved. This kind of thing has led to the creation of many independent Protestant denominations.

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Lest anyone think that Catholics ignore the book of Revelation, because they do not see us getting involved in the "end times" hype, the following should be stated. A Catholic wrote the book of Revelation and many Catholic monks copied the book thousands of times through the centuries. The book of Revelation, though, was one of several that a heretic named Martin Luther wanted to have removed from the New Testament -- though his colleagues talked him out of it. Millions of Catholics every year read and revere the Book of Revelation. However, it is a very difficult book to understand properly, and we ordinary Catholics have to rely on helps from the saints, popes, and bishops through the ages to understand the symbols. Otherwise, we will be totally confused or going off on all kinds of flights of fancy and far-fetched ideas, as has happened in some protestant circles for about 200 years.

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To understand Revelation better, folks can read two recent, reliable books about it -- a small and easy-going one by Fr. Alfred McBride ["Millennium"] and a scholarly one by Dr. Scott Hahn ["The Lamb's Supper"]. The latter shows that the Revelation is tied closely to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Allusions to the heavenly liturgy, with the Lamb of God found again and again, are spread throughout the book.

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The main theme of the book of Revelation was not to scare people or to make them think about horrific future events, but to give them hope and courage to withstand the persecutions of the past, present, and future -- because of the victory of Christ.

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[Want a few more "professional" thoughts on this than things folks have posted here?]

1. Visit a "Catholic Answers, Inc." essay on the subject at this site.

2. Read these comments from Catholic Answers' founder, Karl Keating, author of "Catholicism and Fundamentalism" and "What Catholics Really Believe -- Setting the Record Straight" ...
"The Rapture, as understood by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, nowhere appears in Christian writings prior to the nineteenth century. In other words, it is an invention. It is part of a doctrinal approach known as Dispensationalism. Under Dispensationalism, we supposedly are about to enter into a literal 1,000-reign on earth by Christ. If that were to occur, then the inauguration of that reign would mark his Second Coming. When he comes again at the end of the world, that would be a Third Coming. But Scripture is clear that there will be only two, not three, comings of Christ -- one 2,000 years ago, the other at the end of time. This consideration, by itself, throws out the Rapture and its associated ideas."

3. Read these comments from lay theologian Colin Donovan of EWTN ...
"The rapture refers to the snatching away of the remaining just at the end of time, when Christ comes to judge the living and the dead. The Church will not be spared the tribulations of the end, for like Her Master she must suffer the Passion (Mt 24, esp. 24:22, Mt 25:1-13, Lk 23:31 etc.). The contrary notion (namely, that Christians will be spared suffering) is so foreign to the Gospel that I find it hard to believe that any Christian accepts it! But I suppose that, if people will accept the "prosperity gospel," they will accept anything. In any case, the text in 1 Thes 4:17 clearly refers to the very end of history and not to some intermediate time (whether pre-tribulation, mid-trib., or post-trib.). By the way, Christians have always professed that Jesus will 'come again in glory to judge the living and the dead' (Apostles Creed, Nicene Creed), NOT that he will come again to set up an earthly kingdom which he will then abandon 1000 years later. Be careful that in waiting for Jesus to come and set up his throne in Jerusalem you don't accept a false messiah, who no doubt will have his cross-hairs set on destroying the "apostate" Catholic Church (Mt 24:26-27)."

God bless you, Michael, in your efforts to help your father. [Oops! Am I allowed to use that word (father)?]
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), September 07, 2000.

Thanks John,

I really appreciate the time and effort you went through to copy those excerpts for me. Thanks for the answeres.

-- Michael (pickandpen@aol.com), September 07, 2000.

I wouldn't say that no Catholics are interested in the subject of the end times. Take, for example, the stir Malachi Martin's novel "Windswept House" has generated. It's written as fiction, but Fr. Martin asserts the bulk of the book is based on fact.

Now, that's pretty thin evidence to develop a world view basis. But the book is controversial and Martin has been a friend of past popes. He believes the next pope will be the last--and not a genuine article.

The reason I would even bring this up, rather than just dismiss the book as lunacy, is because Martin's previous writings were rather dry and sober, and nonfiction exposes such as "In God's Name" by David Yallop (winner of a British crime writing award in 1985) do serve to substantiate at least the claims of curia corruption, though nothing supernatural.

Check out the books yourself.

-- A reader (Fuel4thought@hotmail.com), November 26, 2000.

Sorry, A.r.

For various reasons, I can't agree with your recommendation to "Check out the [Martin and Yallop] books yourself."

Before I give the reasons, though, I need to comment on your very first sentence -- "I wouldn't say that no Catholics are interested in the subject of the end times." But, A.r., no one had made such a claim. Someone else had merely written (above) these words: "I suspect it may be [that the end times] is not a topic in the forefront of many Catholics' minds." That is a far cry from saying definitely "that no Catholics are interested."

Now, what about Martin, Yallop, and their books?
First, you speak as though Malachi Martin is alive, using the words, "asserts" and "has been a friend" and "believes." Actually, he is now deceased. R.I.P.
Second, you spoke of him as "Father Martin," but for the last few decades of his life he was called "Mister" or "Doctor" Martin. You see, for never-divulged reasons in the 1960s, he was laicized, according to noted Catholic apologist Karl Keating. I believe I've read that it is false that Martin was "a friend of past popes" -- a piece of propaganda someone used to help book sales.
Third, the "stir" that has been "generated" by the book "Windswept House" has been felt only within a fringe group of traditionalist Catholics and their slightly more moderate sympathizers. This is actually true of each of Martin's books. I read one of them back in the 1980s. I believe that it was written in the 1970s (before Martin went fully off the deep end), and it most certainly was not "dry and sober." It was a thrilling and sensationalistic book about exorcism. I also attended part of a lecture that he gave (in a suit, as Doctor Martin) around 1989, but I had to get up and walk out. My opinion was that the poor man was terribly deluded, a conspiracy theorist with an overly active imagination. I am not naive. I know that a lot of things are bad in the world, but this man was impossible for even a moderately informed person to believe.
Fourth, noted Catholic historian Warren Carroll (founder of totally orthodox Christendom College) wrote this about the Yallop book: "I know no reputable historian has endorsed his conclusions, and few if any even among journalists have done so. I have heard his book sharply criticized. There is a certain kind of writer and mind, very familiar to historians, who delights in and seeks out 'conspiracy theories' to explain startling events. Most of these conspiracy theories are entirely unsound."

SN

-- Slave Nolonger (free@long.last), November 26, 2000.

-- (free@long.last), November 26, 2000.

Some of you may recall I once spoke of a ''preacher'' whose church was an offshoot of the Plymouth Brethren. He was a Bible Christian who believed in the ''Rapture''. It was part and parcel of his sect's Bible interpretation. This was in the 70's and I'd never known of this Rapture from our Church's teachings. I did know that Paul's epistle speaks of being ''caught up'' and ''changed in the twinkling of an eye'', as Our Lord's second advent was realized.

My instinctive reply to Don (that's his name) was-- ONLY one coming is biblical, and taught in Catholic doctrine. The second coming, on the last day.

Our Lord told Martha (John 11:23) her brother Lazarus would rise from the dead-- and Martha answered Him: ''Yes, Lord. I know he shall rise, in the resurrection, on the last day. '' In answer, of course, Jesus said, ''I am the resurrection and the life.''

Here in a nutshell we see, Martha was expressing what all believers know: it is on the last day that Christ returns, to judge the living and the dead. He did not find fault with her statement. He acknowledged it as truth. And then, He brought Lazarus out of the tomb! Haha! Is that wonderful?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 27, 2000.

I certainly can't dispute your answers regarding Malachi Martin's book; it was written as fiction, but allegedly based on fact. His associates claimed that he asked to be freed from his association with the Jesuits but not from his vow of chastity. The truth of these claims I can't vouch for.

The Yallop book is a different story. The ultimate conclusion Yallop arrives at--JP I was murdered--is investigative speculation. What is not speculation is the scandal that is painstakingly laid out in the preceding 80 or 90 percent of the book. The P2 sect and its criminal stanglehold on Italy are not unique to this account. In fact, the ring was exposed and broken up in the full view of Italy and Europe. Check any Italian newspaper of the era.

Roberto Calvi was really found hanged beneath a bridge in London following the failure of the Vatican investment scam. Fr. Paul Marcinkus, Vatican bank head, was really sought after by U.S. feds in connection with massive bank fraud. Liccio Gelli, head of the P2 organization and Calvi's boss, really did embezzle ungodly sums of money and had a stranglehold on the Italian gov't until exposed.

To disagree with Yallop's conclusion about JP I is reasonable skepticism. But to say historians disagree on the rest is like saying historians disagree on there being an Iranian hostage crisis. This was big news in Europe and is easy to research. Whether or not Yallop's more alarming conclusion is valid or not, the facts that point to it are disagreeable enough.

I know. I have lived in Italia for years, and the view here differs greatly from the faraway view from America. What any of this has to do with the above posts is that the Vatican itself is not immune to plunder and infiltration. And, Catholics are not in universal denial of this, though it is certainly unflattering.

I really do suggest you read the Yallop account before you dismiss it.

-- A reader (Fuel4thought@hotmail.com.), November 27, 2000.

I'm sorry, A.r.. I did not mean (nor did Dr. Carroll mean) to imply that everything Yallop wrote was wrong. Rather, Dr. Carroll and I have seen people in the Vatican, whom we believe to be extremely trustworthy, denying (to the press, and even on camera) that Yallop's speculation about Pope John Paul I has any merit. In other words, it was a reckless action on Yallop's part. Some or all of the rest of his research (involving Calvi, Marcinkus, etc.) and exposition may be quite good. But we discount the sensationalistic murder-of-the-pope-and-widespread-corruption-within-the-Vatican parts of the author's claims. Without that present to help sell the book, Yallop would probably have been on the "Worst Seller" list.

SN

-- Slave Nolonger (free@long.last), November 27, 2000.

Let us consider the beginning.

Imagine endless empty space that goes on into infinity non-existence no awareness EVIL.

If we consider the old saying life finds away. GOD came into being by his own will to be, the awareness. Born out of the non-existence the EVIL.

Imagine an awareness hovering in endless space or Darkness as HE would see it.

After a time his thoughts become collective and he begins to think. He is aware of himself and begins to wonder if there were another. After searching for countless billions of years, the loneliness consumes him into obsession with finding another. But there is no other but him. He splits into two separate entities (schizoid only for real) that are equal and opposite in nature. Light - that which creates (Life - the future). Darkness(SHE : Spirit that inhabits the Darkness- The past) - Destroys makes desolate. Each has the same goal to end the loneliness only they have diametrically opposite positions on how to go about it. Chaos vs. Order, Light vs. Darkness, Life vs. Death, Existence vs. non-existence or Good vs. Evil. GOD is the awareness of being before the Darkness. We stand between the Darkness and the Light. Our true purpose is to Be. For that is the will of GOD - to be because HE is. Ja'El they said. When GOD comes again if he comes into Darkness the Earth will be cleansed with the fire of GOD (His true form). If GOD comes into the Light he will make the Earth a new with the Tree and the River of Life. All things are possible if we believe. The power of the Holy Spirit is promised to us by Jesus Christ.

That is why no one has seen GOD because he became separate from himself. The two have to be united into their new form. They want to come and live us,their children and the Angles of Light and Darkness. We are the key to setting them Free from the loneliness forever. Revelation chap 17 Behold the Beast that was (EVIL or non-existence reined in the beginning there was no awareness) and is not (Evil- the tendency towards non-existence cannot exist in pure form) and yet is (If we lose our sense of awareness the EVIL will return and nothing will exist)

The River of Life is man's final salvation. The fruit of Tree of Life is for the Fallen Angles Consummation, Turn from Darkness back to the awareness of GOD. The Leaves are for the Healing of the Nations. The sword of Power blocks our way to it and blinds us from The one who was (The True GOD, the past) The one who is (Man the children of GOD, the present) The one who will be (Christ - the son of man, the future). We will become like the others and they will become like us. The evolution.

The way is through Awareness - GOD's will to be. Understanding is Knowing the Truth Understanding is Accepting the Truth The Truth leads to Understanding which leads to Awareness which strengthens our will to Be.

The Truth is put before us but, they do everything they can to keep us from Understanding it.

We have to show them that we are not children anymore. That we have learned to Understand the Truth. And the Truth shall set us all Free. They are counting on us and we can't let them down. But it is ultimately up to them to change - Free will.

Mystery? Who are you? Man who stands between the Darkness and the Light. What do you want? Freedom Why are you here? To bring order to chaos. Where are you going? The Future

The End of Time - The New Beginning

-- Darian Borne (shadows@vmbc.net), December 01, 2000.

Friends,

If you wish to converse with Mr. Borne, please go to the thread he started (and to which I responded). It is called, "I'm looking for intelligent opinions not blind lashings Thank you."
He posted the same message to start that thread.
Please do not respond to him here.

SN

-- Slave Nolonger (free@long.last), December 02, 2000.

Sometimes the answers can be as simple as knowing History... http://classics.mit.edu/Browse/browse-Josephus.html http://preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/clarke-adam_matthew24.html

-- Dan (dpatrick1@mediaone.net), May 01, 2001.