I was born and raised in "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave". At the time of my birth, the event was recorded by government certified staff of the government recognized hospital. My parents were required by the government to request a birth certificate to prove the event occured and a government issued number called a social security number. I was subjected to government required injections of diseases throughout my toddler years by government certified nurses by aproval of government certified doctors in preparation of compulsive schooling. When I turned 18, I was given permission to call the school to request the day off. I truly was not feeling up to another day of strictly scheduled classes. Because the government sanctioned school's secretary saw me driving downtown, I was locked in a room for 6 hours, monitered by a government certified teacher. After graduation from the 13 years of government required schooling, I presented my government issued number and got a job at a Bradlees. There I was monitered constantly by a camera. I did not receive a paycheck, I signed a piece of paper that was handed to me through a hole in a wire-covered window. I then received an envelope containing my earnings, minus the federal and state government's cut. While working I attended a government approved college so that I could receive government approved certification to work a job paying more than minumum wage. Soon after, I registered with the government my relationship with a man in a government sanctioned ceremony called a wedding.

I became pregnant soon after and submitted myself to a c-section after crying and pleading to the government certified doctor who performed the c-section rather than allowing me to deliver naturally because if by chance something went wrong, he might have been sued for malpractice. This despite the fact that the women in my family traditionally delivered 12lb babies breech, yet healthy and happily.

After being abused and witnessing the abuse of my daughter by my government approved mate, I requested permission from a government approved judge to take the child I bore across state lines so that I would not be arrested and imprisoned should her father complain that I did not recieve permission to leave the state(in which case, my daughter would have been taken from me and I would possibly have to serve prison time in a government run detention center). Due to my unfished education in a government approved college and inability to make enough money to support myself and my young daughter, I willingly became a dependent of the state who gave me a week's worth of income to survive the month on, in exchange for the ability to withhold money weekly from my exhusband's paycheck for the next 17 years, my government issued number, and detailed information on all aspects of my life. I eventually felt repressed by this arrangement and withdrew myself from it, however no matter how many government officals I called, I could not keep the government from attaching my ex husband's paycheck every week. I still do not receive the full amount of that money which they claim is child support.

After 3 years spent in government approved schools, my daughter began to exhibit unpleasant behavior and expressing unpleasant idealogy. I applied to the required government branches for permission to instruct her at home. Because the government approved superintendent's office did not send their copy of my application to the school, my daughter's name was placed on a list of truant children who would be hunted down and whose parents would be punished. Thankfully, because I had called the school's secretary, the woman who called me knew I had applied for permission and was only seeking verification from me that I had undergone this process of application.

The man with whom I live, unregistered (unmarried to), and I bought some land and a house after submitting our government ID numbers and all required paperwork. We paid money to upgrade our well and septic to government aproved standards and then built a barn, including details that would reduce the amount we are required to pay to government liscensed insurance providers. We yearly pay property taxes based on our land and buildings' perceived value according to town government, weekly have money withheld from our paychecks by the state and federal governments and in return receive some of it back according to the number of children we have requested a government issued number for.

When we die, the government will decide how much of our property our children can inherit, as well as where and how our remains are disposed of after our government registered religious clergy performs an approved ceremony.

Born Free, living like a slave, and asked to be thankful for it because others are restricted even further.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 21, 2000

Answers

I forgot to include the government approved food I was raised on and required to raise my children on, the cold medicines approved by the government, the light fixtures, toilets, etc, ad nauseum requiring approval to buy from government approved sales people....

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 21, 2000.

My, doesn't that put things in a different light? I'm NOT feeling warm and fuzzy now. All I can really say is, that is a very powerful rebuke of ourselves and our nation. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), October 21, 2000.

Nicely done, Centurion! Somehow I don't think the government expresses the love they have for all of their children in a manner we appreciate.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 21, 2000.

Though we all must admit, for all the government intrusion into our lives, living here in the US still beats the hell out of living in the middle east right now, or in Russia...

-- Joe (Threearrs@AOL.com), October 21, 2000.

Oh, I thought this was going to be about lions.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), October 21, 2000.

Joe: tell that to the relatives of Elian Gonzales, survivors of Waco, and those who live in the ghettos....:)

Sheepish: it can apply to lions in that they are allowed to live on government owned reserves, are tagged and tracked all their lives, and are captured to be injected with diseases:)

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 21, 2000.

Epona-I, along with most people I talk to feel that Elian got what he deserved-to be home with his father. We cannot choose who we are born to, and the country in which we are born, but regardless of all that, family is all that we-and he-has got, and no aunt, uncle, or cousin can match a fathers love for his child, no matter what country they reside in. And remember also, that there are countless hundreds-if not thousands of Mexican nationals who are trying to cross the border into our country every day-illegaly. If our country was as bad as you seem to think it is, why are they doing it? And those of all nationalities who legally become citizens-again, why do you think they come here? For all the complaining they we do, this still is the best country to raise a family, live, and have the hope of living to a ripe old age.

-- Joe (Threearrs@AOL.com), October 21, 2000.

Joe, the issue was not with whom Elian should reside, but the manner in which he was taken. Since you mentioned where Elian belongs: our local newspaper reports that he has received beatings and is in the militarized schools just like every other child 5 and up in Cuba. He is not with his father. (If these reports are false, well just add it to the list of wrongs committed against us by the government liscensed news sources)

As for immigrants coming to our country, 1) the lesser of two evils is still evil and 2)many become legally active and attempt to change our country or they avoid government officials.

Yes, I do appreciate that I am free to complain openly, but it is not completely without cost. My peers who are content to be on their leashes calling their ability to fit in freedom, will ridicule and shun those who do not conform. That is why most of these sentiments are on the internet where one can remain anonymous to the point that they feel comfortable expressing them.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 21, 2000.

Most of you people know where I stand, that is no secret. If there is one man you can blame for that raid to capture Elian in Miami being a success--well that is my fault. I firmly believe that Elian's mother, thru her dying act, entrusted we as a people with her son's life ! Not only did I fail him but we as a people failed that boy miserably. I regret my actions ! Castro traded us Cuban cigars for a boys life and that is more than intolerable it is a travisty.

I cannot express in words how much I am frustrated by that phrase--" we are the best nation on earth". It is a programmed lie, fed to us with our mothers milk and written on our tombstones ! It is simply not true. It has no purpose, no merit and it is demeaning to others to express it. Statistics prove it false and more important is not the order expessed by God. As Epona has expressed, we are a nation with more problems than answers. Moreover, we have become --A Nation by Money, For Money, with Liberty and Justice for only those with Money !

I think it would be better phrased that we are a nation of good ideals. We are a nation striving for human rights. That we have achieved some success toward that goal and we have failed miserably in some areas. We are partners with anyone striving toward that goal.

Once your brainwashed to believe your the best it closes your mind. That is sad ! Imagine how much better we could be if we opened our eyes to see our own shortcomings. Education is always the key--learn,learn, learn !!! And when you know it all than open a new book ! I agree that perfection is only achieved by God but never, ever stop trying to achieve it. Best Nation on Earth ? Not a chance in Hates !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 22, 2000.

Epona and Joel have expressed themselves very eloquently. I also do not believe we are the best country on earth, but even if we are that does NOT mean we should be satisfied with what we have and let things go on as they are. If our ancestors had been satisfied to just let things go when they were wronged, we would never have become an independent country, nor would most of the great inventions that have made our lives easier have come to pass if everyone had adopted the attitude that "what we have is good enough" and just trudged on. We must constantly strive to improve our lives, or we will stagnate.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), October 22, 2000.

I had a job that overlooked what business was doing and believe me if you did't have government certified anything, you wouldn't like the results. The more people you have the more rules you have to have to keep order. Check out what business did in the early stages of this country before government regs stepped in. Not all regs are good but most actually are. You forget that you are not entitled to step on the righsts of others and that is hard to keep in line. There is one group that seem to have lost their rights and that is land owners.

-- Nick (Wildheart@ekyol.com), October 22, 2000.

While I agree that striving towards betterment is always best whether it be as an individual or a society I do get tired of the negativity of some on this site. Joel and others claim there is a better country (government?) somewhere on this planet. Where, and what can we learn from it to better ourselves? It seems like Epona made some poor life choices and now wants to continue to blame someone(the faceless "government") for them. While you may not like everything the "government" does ( and I'll agree they try to do way too much) at least acknowledge that they do provide some value for the money given them, though not near enough. I'm guessing that, no matter what the Joels and Eponas say, life here still isn't bad enough to give up or they'd have been long gone. Try some positiveness for a change folks.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), October 23, 2000.

Ray, positiveness does have a purpose! It keeps us oriented in a direction that moves us forward, not backward. I know that there are reasons that we all gripe about (you should hear me in traffic!) and there's things that don't work very well (like how come my representative doesn't seem to listen to any of us in our district???) but just to post a litany of "ain't it awfuls" seems rather defeatist. However, in Epona's defense, s/he may be just setting the stage for some possible solutions later.

There are many reasons why there is legislation for things. For example, the surgeon who does my appendectomy had better be a graduate of an accredited medical school, plus have done an internship, plus be up to date on current practice, plus have passed the boards. Etc. We keep track of our population for distribution of benefits, besides just collection of taxes, and gleaning statistics. We may have gone a bit nuts on some things, but if one examines why some things were created in the first place, we may be able to understand why they still are or even aren't needed now. Then maybe we can change them. And maybe not, realistically. We can't achieve everything we want in life. I've learned that!

Just a couple of my thoughts now that I can finally get back on the server!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), October 23, 2000.

Hi Sheepish, I had no idea where the previous posts (about the military, etc, which got heated)had gone topic wise, I certainly wasn't attempting to feed off the negativity. I was kinda surprised when I went back and read them. I've just done some 'waking up', looking at the 'big picture' so to speak government wise. I've had some ideas for starting a business and all the legalities, although I know can be a protection, are overwhelming.

It certainly wasn't me blaming someone else for my poor choices, Ray. But I believe that was obvious. Leaving an abusive husband is a good choice. Removing a child from a dangerous situation is a good choice. Buying a house and making sure it's up to code so your kids are safe is a good choice. Taking responsibility for my child's education is a good choice. Although obeying all the laws seems like a good choice, perhaps it wasn't and those were the bad choices you speak of? Shall I blame the government for oppressiveness when in fact I allow them to oppress? Is that it? Perhaps you are correct in that case.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 23, 2000.

Ray, have you ever seen a movie set? Look around.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 23, 2000.

Epona- The phrase that particularly struck me was "government approved mate". The government issueing a marriage liscense was nothing to do with them approving of your choice of mates other than the proscriptions against inbreeding. There are other countries where the government has had the final say on who you can and cannot marry. I am also a bit confused on your stand on child support. In one sentence you seem to complain that the government would not listen to you when you wanted to cease recieving these payments and in the next you lament that you still do not recieve full value. If you truly do not want the money, send it directly back to your ex. As for the rest of my post, I still haven't seen mention of what countries are better. And yes, I'm very familiar with movie sets. I happen to work for a company that is closely tied to the entertainment industry and I'm well aware of the false fronts and deceptions used to entertain us. I also know that just because all is not as it seems, all is not false either. Healthy skepticism is good, unhealthy cynicism is not.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), October 24, 2000.

You know, sometimes I think some of our discussions get polarized, not entirely by the contents posted, but by the "tone" of the text. I still think that most of us tend to think along a homesteading philosophy line, and that's what keeps us coming back to the forum. However, there are some posts that I read that just get my hackles up, not by what is written, but rather how something is stated (often arrogantly or self-righteously).

I believe any message is much more clearly understood, and potentially accepted, if it's presented with respect for the reader. I wrote some thoughts in my "Why I like Homesteaders" post which is sort of related:

http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=003xtC

Anyway, writing that comes across as merely complaining or too preachy turns off a lot of readers. The exceptions are the folk who like to think: "me too, me too" or those who just show up here to argue all the time. Mostly, we do a really good job of "talking" to each other on here, though!

Just my thoughts about civilization I guess....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), October 24, 2000.

Sheepish, I guess I am chastised. ray, the thing tht gets me about marriage licenses is....where did they originate? And just why is the government involved in something that is upposed to be a spiritual union covered by God? I have looked for answers to these questions. Heck, I even asked Jeeves, and he gave me where to go to get a marriage license and buy a cake!

Now as for the movie set analogy...Sheepish has kind of addressed it, homesteading is a real experience. Many of our experiences with life are legalislated experiences. Just driving down the road in a safe manner causes one to brush up against an incomprehensible number of laws. After you start thinking on these things or have encounters that cause you to think on them, you start to see that there is an incredible facade and most of what we do is just because of "perceived value" or just going along to get along. We have an economy that is run on credit and people mortgage themselves to the teeth to have a place to live....it get's silly! Then to have these things you give up your rights in order to participate in something that is unreal. So you read Ecclesiastes and agree....meaningless. Seems we are all just looking for deeper meaning for the most part. Sorry if some of us don't want to just smile and let it all slide.

There are great, fabulous, and wondrous things! Thunderstorms, sunrises, baby anything other than snakes! The government has nothing to do with them. The illusion of freedom here in the US has nothing to do with them either! So being free in the mind, heart and soul, makes you free under any conditions of law whatsover. This doesn't mean that you let others continue in oppression. Sometimes being slapped in the face with harsh reality causes you to look differently at things.

Sorry for rambling incomprehensibly, but this happens sometimes. I hope you understand some of this meandering.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.co), October 24, 2000.

Doreen- I'm still awaiting an answer from Joel and those that agreed with him as to what country is better. As to just blithely going along with the status quo, I never said that. I did say that we should all strive to better ourselves and our society each and every day. While I do not know where marriage licenses came from I also question whose God you would sanction these unions under. Can athiests get married ? And while I agree that opression is a good thing to fight, be careful how you define it. Just because you disagree with a particular religion, philosophy or government, it doesn't mean that all those who participate in it are oppressed. George Carlin said it best:"It's O.K. to give the natives shoes, just don't try to nail them to their feet."

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), October 24, 2000.

While each country has positives and negatives it is hrd to select one country as "The Best". Some european nations have a much better education system. Some mideastern countries have much cheaper fuel and better resources.

It is our arrogance that doesn't allow us to see positives elsewhere. My pick for the best overall country on earth this year is Sweden. Sweden has had no conflicts in so many years that we can't remember their last one. Sweden"s universities are rated number one in the world. Swecen hasthe lowest infant mortality rate in the world. There is no hunger in Sweden. They have free medical and a free court system. Sweden does take 50% of your income for taxes but if you add up all our taxes we pay more than they do. So they get my vote as Most Productive Civilization on Earth this Year but I would love for the USA to challenge them for that title next year !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), October 24, 2000.

On the question of what country is better than the United States of America, I would have to say two things....1) I haven't left the country in four years so I can't make a terribly recent analysis 2) I believe it would be the country that held up the foundations of the Constitution, as those are the best laws under which an earthly government can function.

I don't know any country nearly as intimately as I know America as my family was here long before the United States was formed. What I do know is that when I look back on the changes in just my lifetime and then I look at a six year old and factor in the reality that when things begin to lean in a direction, and no actions are taken to correct the lean the object will fall. That is the problem as I see it and I rail hard about it because I love the principles upon which this country was founded. It's distressing to see what was bought with a lot of good people's blood be killed by complacency and lack of historical understanding.

The 'power of positive thought' doesn't change historical facts. Only knowledge and action will do that.

Now I want to say that I wasn't denigrating you, Ray. I don't know you at all, by your posts or anything. I just wanted to know if you'd ever seen a movie set. Some of them are so spectacular that you'd actually believe you were in the setting if you were dropped in there blindfolded before coming on the set. Until you started to explore things more closely you wouldn't know it was a facade.

Also, regarding the God issue, this nation happens to be founded on Judeo-Christian principles which is exactly why those principles are so good. A. de Tocqueville said this in the 1830's, I believe, "America is great because America is good. If America ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." And George Carlin has said another wonderful thing, "It's time to give the cockroaches a chance. If they come up with tennis shoes that light up when you step down, then they should be exterminated." He also said that a cynic is a dissappointed idealist.

So, I guess I want to ask everyone this....in a Constitutional sense, what do you see currently that is extremely or even kind of positive about this country's direction?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@yahoo.com), October 24, 2000.

Why exclude snakes? They are some of my favorite things. Open your heart to all creatures without judgement.

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), October 24, 2000.

I just don't like snakes. They have dead eyes. I don't kill 'em just to kill 'em or anything, but they creep me out. If you like them that's fine. But I like them to be out of my general vicinity.

-- Doreen (animalwaitresss@yahoo.com), October 24, 2000.

I believe that " If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. " Every thing you do or say should work towards what your personal ideals are, you are either taking a step forward or back. What I like most about this country is that it has the potential to be ANYTHING we want, if enough of us want it. That potential does not exist anywhere else on this planet, including the afore mentioned Sweden. Apathy is our biggest enemy here in the U.S.A., and also the most easily fixed. Make your voice heard, take a stand, have we forgotten the '60's already? More social change occured in that decade than any other so far, we can do that again IF we want to. It is fine to air our discontents, but if you really want to do something towards fixing it you have to be willing to make it a personal goal,ie., if you don't like the price of gas, boycott the gas stations for a week, or, if you don't like what one of your elected officials is doing, picket and protest on the statehouse front steps, then vote him/her out of office. Better yet, run for his office. Let's hear some SOLUTIONS to our problems instead of mearly griping about them. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), October 25, 2000.

Hello again, Ray. When I say government approved mate, I refer to the many legalities of marriage. For example: age, sex, wether or not he had a former marriage legally divorced.... I think what you perceive as contradictions, is a result of your perception of what was said by assumed intent. The point about child support is that the state controls it. They take(or rather, are given) the right to withhold from someone's paycheck on the basis that it is to support the kids, yet it does not all go to the kids. Just the fact that I tried to stop the process should make you realize that it's not the money at issue. I wasn't complaining that I didn't get the money, I was complaining that the government uses it to fund itself. I think the problem is that you're focusing on the messanger rather than the message, details instead of the big picture, the trees for the forest... Make a list of what the government has a say in, in your own life, seeing as you don't care for the way I live mine. How about the toilet you use? Government regulated. The food you eat? government regulated. Your clothes are taxed. Your cleaning products, taxed and regulated. Which aspect of your life is not affected by the government? Spiritual you say? Only if you don't belong to a religious group with tax-exempt status. If you do, then the government has approved your church for wearing the title religion. If your preacher has decided God doesn't want you to vote for a certain candidate due to their stand on something like abortion, he can't tell you that because churches are not allowed to be used for that. That is the point, not wether or not you like me.

-- Epona (staceyb@myway.com), October 25, 2000.

Joel- A god choice in Sweden. Much to be admired especially since they have put in some more "westernized" reforms of their economy. It will be interesting to see how their inclusion in the EU affects their future well-being.

Epona- I did not mean to criticize the way you choose to live. I neither know you, like you or dislike you. I just am not so quick as you to decry all that government does. While I hate low flow toilets, I approve of government approved septic systems , waste disposal plants, and animal waste handling programs. These help assure that I have clean, potable water without having to rely on those around me being smart enough to know not to dump raw sewage in my water supply. I grow most of my own food and provide ( at a cost) food to many others. Some govt. regulations in this area are good, some are ridiculous, but I don't dismiss all. My point is, just because there are problems with the implementation of a system, it does not make the system bad. Do I get full value from my tax dollars? No. Are things better than if there was no government? yes. Could things be better? yes. I would much rather that no church is tax exempt. That is much more in keeping with the Constitution as I interpret it.

Doreen- The most positive thing I can think of is that we are free to have this kind of discussion.

-- ray (mmoetc@yahoo.com), October 25, 2000.

I was already to post my comments and then read Annies'...she said it all...I would add a few more thoughts though...in the formation of this country, there were many laws then,as now, which are "intrusive". Does anyone truly believe that in the earliest days of the constitution that things were purer? Come on....there were marriage laws then, there were taxes on property then, there were government fees for the recording of deeds, there were tons of toll roads, there were laws for and against setting up certain businesses such as taverns in the town limits,there were laws dictating when a person was allowed to throw out there chamber pot contents into the gutters,laws against public drunkenness,spitting on the sidewalk and cursing.There were NO laws protecting workers from excessive hours,child labor in the woolen mills of New England,or unsuspecting citizens from ingesting arsenic in patent medicines. There were no laws regarding child abuse or cruelty to animals. There were few laws protecting folks who homesteaded from being evicted from the property when a larger,wealthier individual wanted that already worked land. Governments who work FOR THE PEOPLE are few and far between. With all of its' collective faults,historical and modern, the USA still has the BEST government in the world in my humble opinion because it still allows its citizens free speech to criticize it. THIS is the thing to watch,guard and protect vigilantly day and night. When free speech is eroded, this government will become as oppressive as many others. Indeed, if we are not part of the solution, we must be part of the problem. There are great things about this country and there are not so great things happening more and more often. We cannot just sit here and gripe on a forum, preaching to the choir. We need to vote, run for election, write letters to the editor,communicate with those in public office,attend/sponsor town meetings...use that power of free speech to maintain it and other civil rights. Our forefathers did not sit about on their behinds moaning "woe is me"..we should not either.Get involved and do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@gateway.net), October 25, 2000.

I do not believe in shifting blame to any person or goverment. Every choice that I make is mine and I take full ownership of it and what ever results come from that decission.

-- Doug Espe (theespe@aol.com), October 26, 2000.

Hmm....Lets see, you can divorce your mate if you like. You can go to college, and get assisted living if your down on your luck. You don't need a visa to go state to state. Being legally married protects you and your husband, you already had a bad marriage. What happens if this does'nt work either? I would like to part with my truck, living quarters, and livestock with out any problems, especially if I owned it. I still believe we live in a great nation. No doubt about it. I have told friends from other countries about discussions like this, and they are amazed there is so much hatred of such a great country, and thats just the way they said it. They would love to live here. In Korea, women have to marry just to get out of prostitution, because they have been sold by their parents to a momasun. Parents would be put in jail for that in this country, and thats the way it should be. IM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN.

-- Judy (allsmile@ctnet.net), October 28, 2000.

I've only skipped through these replies, so may have missed the answer to Doreen's question about marriage licences, but marriage, even between Christians, is actually a civil contract. At one time it was forbidden by some churches to have marriages performed in the church building, because it was not considered appropriate to have a civil ceremony in a church. As Christians, we are united by and under God, but the civil responsibilities of caring for our family are important to the whole society, which I guess is why marriage is considered a civil contract rather than a religious one.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), October 30, 2000.

As I said, I've been skipping through the posts and just noticed Judy's -- I really don't know why she keeps saying that people on this forum hate their country!! We may get upset with the things our government does that are NOT what the founding father's intended to have happen, and that are NOT in any of our best interests in the long run, but does that mean that we hate our country?!? I don't think so! It means we care deeply, and hate to see what was once a great country going down the tubes. The USA may still be better than other countries in many ways, but it certainly isn't what it once was, and is slowly but surely getting worse -- and if people don't notice and speak out, how are we supposed to fix the things that are going wrong?

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), October 30, 2000.