I've been watching the NAACP election hearings this afternoon. The most charitable thing that can be said about the whole thing down there, assuming the witnesses can be believed, is that something is truly and thoroughly rotten. Either the election board is so incompetant and disorganized as to warrent another vote under intense national scrutiny or that there is an attempt at vote fixing on a massive, statewide scale, pointing incidentally to the republicans and their dirty tricks dept. and perhaps the Bush family themselves.

I fervently hope there is an extensive investigation because the methods of invalidating the BLACK vote were similar and widespread indicating a systemic approach to confusing and disenfranchising a particular demographic of the populace. I'm curious, for those in the Bush camp, is this the way you want your candidate to be elected? Victory at any price?

Or is the true spirit of democracy to be honored, before candidate or party?

BTW---I know myself well enough to say with certainty, that if I was a Bush supporter I would feel the same way as I've indicated above---outraged an an apparent attempt to hijack the system and to usurp the rights of citizens. Thats the way I see it.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 12, 2000

Answers

Please you must consider the source hear. The NAACP has a vested interest in stiring up trouble in Florida. No contoversy no donations and no need for the organization. I wouldn't believe the KKK if they made similar charges in reverse. I do not believe that the state of Florida conspired to prevent black or anyone else from voting. Plaes take our racest organizations statements with a grain of salt, they have other agendas.

-- Del (dgrinolds@gvtel.com), November 12, 2000.

John, I have not heard what it is your refering to. What and how exactly was this supposedly accomplished?

The area of dispute, as I understand it, is the 4 counties which had the "ballot from hell" problem. No matter who is decided the eventual whiner, or winner. A revote of any kind should be out of the question.

Hizzoner, Mayor Richard J. Daily of "the great city of Chicago" ran and delivered the most efficient and crooked elections ever. JFK was Prez because of him. As great an organizer and crook as Hizzoner was, he could only effectivly control 2 counties.

Your sounding pretty "conspiracy theory" w/ some of what your saying John. Chill a little. I know we don't share much political ideology, but take a deep breath and relax. Consider the source. J. Jackson was a part of the Chicago scene w/ Hizzoner and knows what to say and how to cast aspersions where they do the most good.

When this is all done I would hope people would remember this as the great horse race it is. A truly historic event. Not as "how ________ Stole the 2000 election".

Let's wait and see how it plays out. It doesn't matter much, as both houses are even closer in #'s. Nobody's going to be able to cram much down anyones throat anyway.

I really, truly, don't think either party could have effectivly tossed this one way or another. This is just the nuttiest thing we may ever see. It really helps to look at it from an angle like that. John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 12, 2000.

Oh yeah right we're supposed to believe the NAACP. Talk about a partisan organization if their ever was one! This whole thing reminds me of the demonstrators at the republican national convention. Has anyone ever noticed that the Democrats are the best whiners in the world beside me. Here is my take. The Democrats have their backs against the wall and are pulling out all the stops to keep the presidency. The Democrats are excellent at taking small issues and making them massive problems. That's what they did at the Republican National Convention and that is what they are doing now. They'll just keep recounting until enough votes turn the election their way. It's a poor poor pitiful me fest and they will use anything to get their way. Why do they need the presidency? Because it is the only thing that keeps congress in check until they can get their majority back. I don't buy this lame duck congress idea, and neither do the Democrats. They know that there is enough cohesiveness among republicans that many things can still get done, that they don't want with republicans in all three branches. If Democrats lose the presidency, they will also have to admit to the incredible assault on the Constitution from the last eight years. The law has been transgressed. A republican president can prove it to the American people. The only way it has been kept under raps so far is because the reigns were held by the right people. Gore has been given one charge, keep the presidency or the democratic party will never recover from the consequences. Conspiracy? You'd better believe it! How do you clean up a mess of the highest order? How do you cover treason? Anyway you can, and if that means lying, cheating and stealing to get a few more votes in Florida, that's what you do! Ultimately Bush has a heck of a lot less reason to cheat to get the presidency than Gore does. I mean we just might find out what was really going on in that bhuddist temple. if nothing else this is still really good spin for the Democrats, because if indeed it still doesn't go their way, when Bush starts telling the tale of the last eight years they will have boondoggled the American people enough that they will have created distrust in the Republicans. This will allow them the option of claiming sour grapes and give them yet another way to squirm out of their illegal activities.

Little bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 12, 2000.

You know, some people only want to create confussion, Some people are paranoid, and some people just need to get a life. There is nothing of which you can or will do to fix the problem it is out of your hands. There is no sense in leting your blood pressure rise, there is no useful purpose. mellow out, it's over. Sit back and watch the true colors of your party, and by all means Blame Me if it makes you feel better.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), November 12, 2000.

For those who didn't watch it the following is a brief summary of some of the allegations.

Absentee ballots requested, registered, then not mailed out or recieved by intended recipient. When recipient went to polling place, because ballot not rec'd they were turned away as ineligible because absentee ballots were "sent out".

No help at polling places in spite of legislative mandate requiring it and the specific, guaranteed-in-Fla-law, the RIGHT to cast as many as three ballots if mistakes were made in the first two, a law frequently ignored according to numerous wittnesses and repeated requests for a different ballot as a result of mistakes.

At least two boxes of "missing" ballots, one reported on by a police Lt, live, shortly after it was rediscovered.

Excessive and unecessary delays at polling places, but aparently only at black polling places.

Numerous complaints about cops hassling black voters, before entering the polls, witnessed and testified on by a white producer of the Tom Joyner Show.

Are all these first hand witnesses to be called liars, in spite of coming from a wide area in Fla and representing a diverse socio- economic background, sharing only in common their skin color, and the similarities of their complaints, for the most part?

That the blacks traditionally vote Democratic does as much to support the idea that they have in fact been discriminated against, under a republican(Bush) governor as it does to support the idea that its sour grapes coming from the NAACP.

GW seemed pretty cocky about a Fla win a couple weeks ago. Even when Gore was prematurely announced as winner by the media, he sez "Impossible. Just wait."

Again, my point is "Whats more important? Who wins? or the integrity of the process? I believe its the integrity of the process. Just because Daly in Chi during the 1960 election was crooked, does that make it right if this one is? I think not.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 12, 2000.

For those who didn't watch it the following is a brief summary of some of the allegations.

Absentee ballots requested, registered, then not mailed out or recieved by intended recipient. When recipient went to polling place, because ballot not rec'd they were turned away as ineligible because absentee ballots were "sent out".

No help at polling places in spite of legislative mandate requiring it and the specific, guaranteed-in-Fla-law, the RIGHT to cast as many as three ballots if mistakes were made in the first two, a law frequently ignored according to numerous wittnesses and repeated requests for a different ballot as a result of mistakes.

At least two boxes of "missing" ballots, one reported on by a police Lt, live, shortly after it was rediscovered.

Excessive and unecessary delays at polling places, but aparently only at black polling places.

Numerous complaints about cops hassling black voters, before entering the polls, witnessed and testified on by a white producer of the Tom Joyner Show.

Are all these first hand witnesses to be called liars, in spite of their numbers and coming from a wide area in Fla, representing a diverse socio-economic background, sharing only in common their skin color, and the similarities of their complaints, for the most part?

That the blacks traditionally vote Democratic does as much to support the idea that they have in fact been discriminated against, under a republican(Bush) governor as it does to support the idea that its sour grapes coming from the NAACP.

GW seemed pretty cocky about a Fla win a couple weeks ago. Even when Gore was prematurely announced as winner by the media, he sez "Impossible. Just wait."

Again, my point is "Whats more important? Who wins? or the integrity of the process? I believe its the integrity of the process. Just because Daly in Chi during the 1960 election was crooked, does that make it right if this one is? I think not.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 12, 2000.

Hi John, It seems to me that everyone is forgetting that if this were to end up going to the Senate, someone in the election with a vested interest in the race is the President of the Senate... No conflict of interest there?

Look at how much this is making even the most staunch defenders of the "faith in the government" camp question elections. It's kind of funny how this is making everyone even more polarized to the opposite side of the same coin. Not fun, just funny. I hope no one ends up having committed suicide by shooting themselves three times in the head with the wrong hand over this. Or some strange heart attack....

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 12, 2000.

Hi John! Of course, because its so close, everything should be done to see this thing is fair. Re -count all the close states if its necessary because if we don't we will all live with 4 years of hell. We need a clear cut victory by one party. Then after we have a winner we should not spend 60 million bucks to try and ruin him!....Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), November 13, 2000.

If Gore doesn't steal this election it won't be for lack of trying to. If he does steal the election then strike up the band and hail to the thief!

-- (clb@watervalley.net), November 13, 2000.

What most people are forgetting is that God sets kings up and He tears them down. As hard as it would be to accept Gore as president, we should remember that, just because he'd be there, doesn't mean he'd stay. And if he would stay, it would not be without purpose.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), November 13, 2000.

John, Plenty of verifiable complaints to go around regarding both parties. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest w/ you about this. Honest.

Believe it or not, I'm trying to be a voice of calm and reason here for once :-) Think about this whole deal in Fla. We've got an election that truly is razor thin. Who benefits the most from keeping the hysteria lavel up? The press does.

The press has a vested intrest in 1) who wins 2) ratings and money 3) keeping us all glued to the tube, radio, paper, etc. so they can sell more adds! (see # 2 again, MONEY). 4) keeping the class divisions going. J. Jackson would say or do ANYTHING to get a network camera in his face. all that leads to #5) POWER!!!!!!

I could go down the list you put up and debate you on the points, and show you things to back up what I say. But I'm not going to. I'm tired. I was born under the skyway bridge in Chicago, I've watched Jessie all my life. I just can't believe much of what he says anymore.

We, as a nation, have been, and continue to be, manipulated by the media to believe that EVERYTHING IS A CRISIS!!!!!!!! EVERYONES A RACIST!!!! THE SKY IS FALLING!!!! THEIR TRYING TO KILL OUR BABIES W/ ALAR ON APPLES!!!!! YADA, YADA, YADA!!! No, I'm not yelling at you.

This hysteria and class warfare has been pushed thru the mass media for a long time. Those who feed this stuff to the media have their agenda. Divide and Conquer. If they can get us to concentrate on the extrainious BS, they can and have, slowly moveed in and taken over more and more control of our lives, AS they "solve our Problems" or "Make it fair for all" They piece by piece dismantle the constitution, in order to help us.

Don't misunderstand me here, a level playing field for all is a good thing.

As high as the emotions are now, is it a really good idea to further alienate people more? I think your good intentions and good nature are being played upon like a fiddle right now John.

I would like to think we could have a "Class Picture Day" where we could ALL be in just 1 photo. I'll be on the far right of course, and you can be somewhere to my left!! But we can both be in the picture.

Cindy, Good point. the wife has been trying to remind me for a few days about Who is in charge, in an attempt to slow my breathing down and lower my blood pressure. I think it's working. All of you have a good day, JSM

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 13, 2000.

Just one quick comment about the press. The press does not certify an election! We are currently in a lengthy process of electing a president...all legally provided for, time-wise. If the press had not come out and declared Bush "the Winner", which it did, there would be far less perception that Gore is now whining, or trying to finagle the election results BACK. In fact, the election results are still PENDING. The vote count should be respected by both parties equally, as it's the only way that the final results will be known.

It is an extremely close vote. However, nobody has WON yet, and therefore, no body has tried to steal back the Presidency. It is simply taking a long time to count, AND there are additional considerations b/c of voting irregularities.

For those of you who think that Bush is having to defend his prize, please re-consider that nobody has won yet. This is all about counting the votes, still....whether accurately, under protest, or whatever. It is not about "Bush already won, so what's Gore doing dragging this out."

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 13, 2000.

Sheepish, Agreed. I'm trying to be as non partisen as I can here. Heck you know I want Bush to win. I want it to be as above board as can be.

All the screaming in the media is distracting people from the laws about the count tally and when it will be complete. All the charges, back and forth only stir up the pot of emotions. And muddy the waters further.

Next Friday, after all the votes are counted and the #'s are known. Lets hope whomever has the least votes concedes and we won't have to continue further division of our populace.

I'm afraid if this hype and hysteria were to continue for to long it could send some whacko, or whackos, over the deep edge, and bloodshed could result.

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 13, 2000.

I've been wondering if some of you democrats out there aren't just a little embarrased at all this. The way al gore and his gang are crying to keep recounting until they win. Paying homeless people to vote in, where was it, Michingan I think. It was on video. And all the criminal activity the gore people are carrying on. Why don't they have a little class and admit they lost. And then there's old Jessie down there claiming that the black voters in that county are too stupid to know how to vote and need to revote.

-- Shooter (jcole@apha.com), November 13, 2000.

Sorry about the double post. I've attempted to be as even handed as I can manage with the introductory post and I mean it when I say I'd be just as outraged if I was a Bush supporter and the shoe was on the other foot. The preservation of the system and maintaining its integrity is far more important than either of the candidates.

Again IF the allegations of the witnesses at the NAACP hearings are accurate we ALL have reason to be concerned. I'm not so naive as to believe either party is above dirty tricks but on the other hand is that a valid excuse to let it go when there are obvious discrepencies and blatent violations of Florida election law (if the witnesses are to be believed)?

Sheepish is right---let the chips fall where they may when all the ballots are counted.

But in the meantime investigate the allegations because they are serious if true.

BTW---I'm not one of Jessies biggest fans either.

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 13, 2000.

John, Fair enough. Thanx.

-- john in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 13, 2000.

Shooter Where are you getting your ammo? Most of what you say applies to both parties. In case you havent noticed several repubs had to leave office for being bad boys. They both do the same things to get money and they will do so as long as the law stays the same. The ballots are still being counted because someone was cheating. Notice the gov. has the bush name? Why are all the repubs so excited about a recount anyway? Think the truth might come out? I did like the picture in the paper where the 40+ year old repub was intimidating the 14 year old kid. Someone should tell him the kid was not old enough to vote. By the way the lead is down to 288 and dropping.

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), November 13, 2000.

Even al gore has not come out and said the "C" word yet. Baseless inuendo and aspersions aside, what is it your trying to say Nick?

I'm trying to remain polite here. Facts please. Conspiratory accusations and vague references to "repubs who had to leave office"? Can't you do a little better than that?

Try these. Where was George Dubya when JFK was shot anyway? Was he the shooter on the grassy knoll? I heard he was flying a navy jet the night Flight 800 was shot down. Maybe he was responsible for JFK Jr's demise too? How much did Dubya know about Mel Carnahan's flight schedule? See, a lot of aircraft stuff. That's his specialty, you know.

This is fun isn't it? I heard Dubya personally hired the Captain of the Exxon Valdez. And Dubya started Dareyl Strawberry on drugs, after the All Star Game in 92! Dubya's Grandpa set the Chicago fire to cover up a liquor store robbery! The Bush family owned Love Canal you know. He also started Marion Barry on Crack, Bush even owned the Essex Hotel where Berry was caught.

Now remember to practice, practice, practice!

If you learn to put the proper amount of hysteria and venom in w/ your baseless charges, you could land an exciting carrer in New York as a press secretary for the new Jr. Senator! Keep practicing. It's exciting to watch a talent bloom! Your Loving Mentor, John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 13, 2000.

nothing really counts until 12/18 when the electoral college votes so let them count and recount until then . who cares. let's all take a good look at how both of these candidates have been groomed for political office since birth. then let's really think hard about a three party system for 2004. i don't think our founding fathers or the millions of men and women who have died defending us and our constitution did it to create political dynasties ie. GORE'S OR BUSHE'S. it's too late for 2000 but not for 2004. hope we all have a wonderful holiday season.

-- ernie nouvertne (bellyacresfarm@kyk.net), November 13, 2000.

nothing really counts until 12/18/00 when the electoral college votes so let them count and recount until then . who cares. let's all take a good look at how both of these candidates have been groomed for political office since birth. then let's really think hard about a three party system for 2004. i don't think our founding fathers or the millions of men and women who have died defending us and our constitution did it to create political dynasties ie. GORE'S OR BUSHE'S. it's too late for 2000 but not for 2004. hope we all have a wonderful holiday season.

-- ernie nouvertne (bellyacresfarm@kyk.net), November 13, 2000.

John, with all due respect, and I mean that sincerely, the Bush family name has been associated with a number of scandals...Iran/Contra (Geo. Sr, who was head of the CIA at the time); Neil (Geo. W's brother) in the Silverado Savings and Loan Scandal; and Jeb in whatever the HMO scandal was... Now I read (and haven't verified yet) that Geo's cousin was the one who declared Geo W. the winner in Florida (he works at the service that provides this detail to the news media). So the name does come up from time to time in association with some "interesting" dealings. In fairness, I also know that the Daley (Gore campaign guy in FL) family name is also associated with "interesting" elections!

The conspiracy thing probably occurs to all of us at one time or another. Best to keep our heads on straight, though.

The latest polls show that the majority of American people are in favor of getting accurate results from the ballots cast, even if it takes a while. They are not in favor of a re-vote in Florida, or prolonged litigation. Very sensible lot, seems to me.

I don't understand why in the world the Bush folk would not want to ensure a correct count. They are probably going to win. What difference does it make if it takes a while longer?

Anyway, whoever the "winner" is will have a real fun time being President, and I would bet $$ that he's out the door in four years! The economy is going to falter and he will get blamed for it. Maybe I should lobby for a re-vote and cast my ballot for Bush! If he wins, we are likely to then see 8 years of a Democratic presidency (Gore?) starting in Jan 2005. The President after a "weak" Pres often gets 2 easy terms (Reagan after Carter, Clinton after Geo. Sr.) But then, maybe Hillary will get elected! (Just baitin' y'all!)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 13, 2000.

Oops! error alert...I said that Geo. Sr. was head of the CIA during the Iran/Contra affair. He was actually Vice President during Iran/Contra. He had been CIA director prior to that time. I do try to get a few things straight from time to time....

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 13, 2000.

Sheepish, We knew that. Honest mistake. BTW I forgot to add earlier,

Conspiracy & slander 101 was a public service parody brought to you by "Loving and Loathing Inc." A wholly owned subsidiary of the time Warner Company. Stay tuned next week for "George Washington, the real story behind, the Cherry tree murders".

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 13, 2000.

Now for some real fun everyone should quickly run and check out votescam.com before they get hacked again....as we all sit and scratch our heads and say "the media doesn't control the elections".....or do they?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

I am DEAD serious! Look at the following from Yahoos news on the desire of gore to do a HAND recount in all of Florida! It's very telling, especially in the last sentence.

FROM YAHOO....I think it's an AP story....

I am going to put this on another thread.

-- Doreeen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

Unfortunately things get blown out of proportion, people put in their own agenda, etc. but the truth is there were some nasty issues surrounding mostly black voting areas, at least here around Tallahassee. I have friends at Florida A&M University who were turned away in large numbers, some were declared by the state to be convicts when they aren't, etc. I'm not saying this is a conspiracy, etc. but it is unfortunate that in this day and age people do still practice blatant racism.. I see it every day when I go into the schools in the rural counties surrounding Tallahassee. I don't know if the media blew this out of proportion - didn't see the coverage, but I hope we can take it in perspective that it isn't "the black people whining about discrimination again" because, in this area at least, it is all too true on a daily basis. In the mean time, both Gore and Bush have pretty much proven to me they don't deserve the presidency - I say just give the office to Nader! - Julia

-- Julia in Tally (tofubiscuit@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

Doreen, can't bring myself to go see it. I'm so over the whole thing. I realized today that they are going to just keep counting till gore wins. I really hate to sound like a sore sport here, but I'm sure now, that is what's going to happen. We've had 3 counts so far. Bush has won them all, not including the overseas ballots. I just don't trust these folks for another count. It's a done deal. One way or another, gore is going to win. And there is nothing that's going to change it.

I'm done w/ it. I will accept it as graciously as I can and drive on. The fun has gone out of it now. God bless you all, John

-- John in S. IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

John I believe Bush was too drunk at the time to be involved in the JFK deal. But what I want to know is why you don't want to see this settled legally. It is being done by the books. Only the repubs want it stoped. I wonder why? But looking back at all our interaction I have to admit you and I are equal on tall tales. You don't add all the facts and I jest. But the same outcome. The reason I didn' state all the repubs in discrace is that it was on prime time and everyone saw it. I thought you had. By the way are you repub far right?

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), November 15, 2000.

John! NO, NO, NO! Now is not the time to give up!! This is the time to stand and fight! The tatic has and continues to be, to throw out so much propaganda, lies, distortions, allegations and confusion it wears down the average citizen, who then just withdraws from the battle! We are seeing a "bloodless coup" before our very eyes. Do not withdraw, I beg of you!! After 8 years of lawlessness and corruption, if we allow this to happen, we are done! It will truely be over. This is about the rule of law and our duty to stand against tyranny and deception. Please, now is the time to choose. We can not afford to stand on the side line. Be you for Gore and his ilk, choose and stand with him. Be you for Bush and his, stand with him. If you care not for either, but respect the rule of law that restrains evil and choas, you are compelled to stand with the republicans, at least for now. If justice is done, the law upheld and order restored we may all demand from those we have supported to rise above self interest and restore dignity to the highest office of the land. And if they do not, our support goes elsewhere. We are not helpless! The time for debate with the dems/libs is over, there is no point. We do not even speak the same language. We must not work to woo our enemys, but work to rally the support of our friends. If the sounds harsh, I am sorry. My concern right now does not include trying to draw diehard Gore/democrat/liberal supporters to the "right" side. Only to keep those on the "right" firm in thier commitment to see justice done. Please, conservatives, let your voice be heard! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 15, 2000.

Interesting quote from the head of the election committee in Palm Beach County this morning on Good Morning America.(Yes this is the same woman who helped design and signed off on the butterfly ballot). "We picked up 19 votes in recount of 1% of the precincts. We expect to pick up 1900 votes in the full recount."

This would be the woman who is in charge of a non partisan, non biased recount of the votes. Wonder who "we" is?

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

Nick, Maybe. How old would he have been in 63? I don't understand what you mean by legally. They counted em up at least 2 times, maybe 3,(i'm losing count of the counts here). Law states counties to have the #'s in and the secretary of the state "SHALL" certify it 7 days post election. The law doesn't say, may certify, or can if she has time, ect. Shall means "you will" in legal BS terms. At least it does for me. See what happens if you don't pay your taxes when the IRS says "YOU SHALL". Yesterday was supposed to be the deadline.

Your guy is going to assume the prez on 20JAN01. Some how that will happen. They are going to keep counting till the #'s come out in al's favor and then stop. The thought of the courts deciding an election sickens me. Sets a hell of a bad precedent for any future election.

Your funny too. Am I far right? Rush Limbaugh has to stand on my left for photos! Far enough. I have had a lot of fun in our tete a tete's, though your still wrong about most anything I can think of! I will be gracious and continue to mentor you in your bid to be press secretary for Hellery. Even if that goes against my motto of " Friends don't let friends remain liberal" OK I just made that up. You keep lying and I'll keep correcting you. Match made in heaven.

Wendy, you know where my sentiments are on this. I'm really bummed that it has to come to this. How many times in the last 8 years have we had to hear about " a team of clinton / gore lawyers....blah, blah...blah." That's why I'm bummed. They always end up ,w/ the help of the press, promoting some perversion, or perversion of the law. And making it sound ok to the average american dumbass, who gets his entire news fed to him by Dan Rather, or some other socialist doofus.

I've always enjoyed politics. I saw how Hizzonor ran things as a kid. He stole the 1960 election for JFK. His kid is going to help steal one for gore. The irony is killing me. Like father like son.

I have just resigned myself to an algore prez, that's all. America is going to get what they deserve. We've become a nation of self centered, selfish, amoral, rude, greedy, materialistic, ungodly, ignorant, stupid and wicked people, we deserve a president that reflects those values. So al would be the logical choice when you look at it like that.

I see the polarization from this. The win at any cost mentality. and it just has made me sad for what it's done and doing to our nation. That's why I'm over it. this has removed the fun from what should have been the primo election of our lifetime. I'm still sending mail to friends and representatives. But I don't thinkit's going to matter. JOhn

-- John in S In (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 15, 2000.

John, we all have more in common with each other than we have differences. Just think, if our nation were at war defending itself, we would hardly be squabbling about partisan politics. We would, for the most part, be striving to pursue our common destiny. Part of the reason all this commotion is going on, is that we are all so spoiled with too much time on our hands. Well, nationally, *some* of us, anyway....

While electing a president is kind of like a gigantic football game, where everyone is excited and wants their team to win, we need to all drive safely home after the game is over. Yes, some of us are concerned about instituting the "instant replay" rule. Some of us think the game has been thrown. But we all need to get behind whoever the new president is and try to support him. We need to all at the very least, try. Give Bush or Gore a chance. If we all try to sabotage the results, it will NEVER work.

I am personally grateful that this situation has awakened a slumbering population of Americans, and hope they all take the time to follow the issues, watch campaign contributions, and generally take note of what's going on around them. By working the system, one may be surprized at what can be accomplished. I have to remind myself of this just about every day lately, but it's true...

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 15, 2000.

Julia, the thing is that when the liberals and/or the media need their agenda fulfilled then they are there rallying for the cause of the poor down trodden masses(the blacks, unwed mothers or whoever fits the bill at the time) but where are those people the rest of the time? How many of them are sending money to black scholarship programs for instance or to shelters for abused women or what-have- you. I'd like to know what they are actually DOING about anything besides ranting and raving and pointing fingers at everyone else.

-- evelyn b (peontoo@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

Oh, and yes I agree Julia that racism is still going on. I was in Florida and met my sister there who happens to be korean. When we were at a restaraunt the waitress wouldn't even look at my sister and said to my husband "what is she having?" while gesturing in her direction. Very ugly to see.

-- evelyn b (peontoo@yahoo.com), November 15, 2000.

John, I know. Thats okay, I'll fight twice as hard until your ready to re-engage! Go through the same thing myself, it seems neverending! BTW, did you get a chance to see Gov. Bush make his statement tonight? (11/15/2000) WOW- GO DUBYA!! What a stark contrast--he actually spoke to the American People as though they would understand reason. Imagine that!! You are in my prayers, as is this Nation! God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 16, 2000.

Hi John, I didn't get a chance to see the NAACP hearings, although my eyes are tired from watching so much news on TV and I don't know how I missed it. But I'd like to point out an interesting contrast that I saw on TV today. A black republican woman ran for office in Palm Beach not that long ago. The votes were tallied and she only lost by 15 or so votes county wide. She then went through the proper procedures and asked for a recount. She was denied the recount by the same 3 people who control the board now. All three are white and they are also all Democrats. Racism knows no party, unless you belong to the right one. (or wrong one, as was her situation). And as a side note, the reason she was denied a recount was because 1. there was no proof of fraud during the voting and 2. the machines were tested and were working fine. I guess the same standards that applied to this lady are made an acception for Al Gore. And as another side note and to her credit, they asked her why she didn't kick and scream about it, she said... she lost, she'll run again, and she has accepted defeat with dignity. What class!!!

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), November 16, 2000.

John Just for info, I get my news from PBS. But I have noticed the mention of liberal. If you have ever changed something or someway then you did a liberal act and can be considered one. But its just a word that has been misused over and over because it's easier than thinking. Also I am and have been an independent voter. I can and have voted both ways and sometimes third party if it's right. The main thing that gets me is that Bush signed a bill for manual hand counting of ballots in Texas and made it mandatory. So what is the problem in Florida? Is it really eithical for a co-chair of Bushes campain in Florida to be making decisions on accepting ballots? Doesn't look or sound right does it? I'm for justice and fair play. No more or less. If Bush wins with a proper hand count then so be it. But I am tired of Repub excuses and whinning to prevent fair play. Just another note, the Court system is part of the system to insure fair play. Gore is willing to let the state of Florida handle it. Why not Bush?

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), November 16, 2000.

Real strange, I have taken the time to compose 2 wonderful posts, 2 nights in a row. Only to have them get swallowed up when the windows to hell software crashed my computer. I'm taking this as a sign that I should just lay off this topic. So, I will take a break for a few days as the courts do whatever they are going to do.

I will be moving my computer, in the meantime, to it's new home out in the country, as the sale went through Yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will post details next week when I get things back in order. I've been stressing a bunch here as of late, under 3 weeks from initial conversation to, wham!!! Started moving today. Snowed today of course!! Murphy's Law Rules. See ya next week some time! John

-- John in S IN (jsmengel@hotmail.com), November 17, 2000.