I am DEAD serious! You need to go check out votescam.com and look at whom they are talking to, Voter News Service, about EXIT polls, and how VNS has been so accurate in calling the races on a National and even State level through what they say are EXIT polls. Then go and have a look at the following from Yahoos news on the desire of Gore to do a HAND recount in all of Florida! It's very telling, especially in the last sentence.

FROM YAHOO....I think it's an AP story....posted for info only

They are going to count and recount until Gore wins and the Clinton Dynasty can continue under his tutelege with less offensive sexual scandals. Meanwhile, what is all of this election business a cover for?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000

Answers

Sorry the sentence didn't post. Here it is again...I hope! Also, it is a Rueters story in the LA times. When you go to votescam.com read the interview that should pop up as an inset on the first page on the right hand side. It is a bit lengthy, but not near as long as this election!

" Democrats like the strategy because they are confident that even a statewide manual recount would leapfrog Gore past Bush. ''We won the EXIT polls and we're ahead in our own polling in Florida, so we're reasonably confident a statewide recount would go our way,'' a lawyer advising the Gore team told the Times."

I capitalized the word exit to draw your attention to it....

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

Doreen, check this out and tell me what you think ok? Go to www.kcro.com, go to Paul and Martys forum, and check out the link on the thread titled "Blood in the streets". Thanks-Beth

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

Beth, I went to that website. It is VERY interesting. I think it is a little scary as well to think that all of this fraud was taking place by the Democrats. I have always been very leery of President Clinton in the sense of him wanting to "rule" the country like a dictator and was glad that his "reign" was finally coming to an end. Now this makes me not so sure. Ever since election night, I have been saying that I think this is going to drag out and Clinton would have to stay in office until it was resolved. Sounds like this is becoming more and more a reality.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), November 14, 2000.

Could you please either post the link or the story? Thanks!

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 14, 2000.

Lets just get the 'election' over. I personally believe that if some say 60,000 people would write letters monthly to each elected official informing them of what "we the people" actually want. Somebody would eventually listen. I wrote over 1000 letters myself last year. (a $350 investment) At least one politician finally answered and even though it took 65 letters our road finally got a 3" coat of gravel and lo' and behold' the mounting bags of trash were finally pick up and carted off.

Politican's are by nature slimy things. But we have to deal with them the best we can. Much like a mole in the yard. Either co-exist or spend time and $$$ and eradicate it.

Raises glass (clean well water) "May we all live to see peace & prosperity through-out the land"

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

Now, before I begin, I just want to say, I have no idea how valid this is, I heard it from someone that listens to shortwave radio. It could be something that we can all laugh at or it could be something just to scare us or...

This person said that Clinton was going to see to it that there would not be a new president. That he was going to cause something to happen to invoke Marshall Law so that he could stay in office. This person said other things that I didn't believe at the time and I've seen them happen.

-- Cindy (atilrthehony_1@yahoo.com), November 14, 2000.

Okya, now I am really upset. I just went back to Yahoo to check the link for the story and the story is gone replaced with a different one that still contains the sentence I posted above but in a differnt place and it's a different article. Here's the link to the newer story.... www.latimes.com/news/politics/decision2000/ lat_strategy001114.htm

I took of the http:// in hopes that it would post. Sorry but I haven't got the time to go to the site right now, Beth. As for whether it is conspiracy theory, is it a theory when it's proven? Isn't something here not registering with you?

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

Cindy, my Hubby has said all along that he didn't think that Clinton would give up without some kinda fight; that when it was his time to leave, he WOULDN'T. Hubby has seen enough of the way that gov't works that he isn't too trusting. I have wondered if he might be right about Clinton.

-- Leann Banta (thelionandlamb@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

By the Constitution a President must be sworn in on Inragural (spelling?) Day. If the issue isn't decided the Speaker of the House of Representatives will be sworn in as acting President. No VP will be named at that time, but will be selected by, I think, the Senate.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 14, 2000.

You know a few years back Clinton passed a law that in effect makes all communication devices (cb's, ham, gmrs), listening devices specifically shortwave radios and scanners (subversive) contraband. At the time I didn't give it much thought I mean Billy boy has passed more "social"/"criminal" laws than 4 presidents combined.

I know you probably all have heard about the "slush" fund that turned up in Florida and California and "trickeled" down to the Bloods & The Crypts. (Well know gangs) I've read several reasons for it. everything from it was to try to "educate" them to "hiring" them like Hitlers SS.

With the thought that anyone might try to stay in political power is a very scary thought. This is more frighting concept than Y2K ever had a chance to be.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

You know, Ken in N.C., NPR brought up that same reference to being worse than Y2K just this morning? I agree, but I just hope the public well remembers all this bilateral mudslinging in the next Presidential election, MAYBE then they will better consider a vote for NEITHER of the two parties so involved now. I can always hope! I have seriously considered making a bumper sticker that says, "Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!" Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 14, 2000.

Please go to the votescam site and read the interview. What this is all about is that YOUR VOTE DOESNT MATTER. It doesn't matter if you voted for Tweedle dee or Tweedle Dum or anyone else. Doesn't that upset you?

Ken, if it goes to the Senate, who is the President of the Senate?

Just for the record, I really don't want Martial Law DECLARED, we are already under Martial Law since FDR, if I remember correctly, but it is undeclared as of 6:08pm today. Martial Law isn't fun. I was in LA for the Rodney King riots and I wasn't too pleased.

Beth, I went to that site and that's exactly what we should be afraid of. I read an article at News Max today that said the sales of ammo are up 900% since last Tuesday. Stock up and get ready for Y2K all over again. At least that's what I am going to do.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 14, 2000.

Here, we have been prepared for possible revolution since Reagan was in Office, Y2K was no big challenge to prepare for, I plan for things like this (election chaos) all the time, the revolution will come sooner or later. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 14, 2000.

Oh please. Seattle is getting ready to "host" it's anniversary party for the WTO meetings/riots from last year. Since we DO care about the environment and people's will to be heard in our corner of the world...depending on what happens in Florida in the next few days....it could be noisier than any Fourth of July ever was around here.

btw, still no U.S. Senator selected here yet. No worries, either. Our state believes in taking enough time to get an accurate count of the will of its electorate... ;)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 14, 2000.

Doreen, I haven't heard a thing on the news on how the people of Texas are reacting to all of this. What's the news been saying there?

-- Annie (mistletoe@earthlink.net), November 14, 2000.

on proven conspiracy theories...I am very leery of the powers that be...and I personally believe this election to be like a stewing kettle that may soon boil over. Emotions are running high, and with no wonder with so much at stake. Doreen,if you can't find the article (original) try these links: www.halturnershow.com, also, I'm not too sure about him yet as I just "found" him, but I also stumbled upon the site of a very articulate gentleman named J. J. johnson; it can be found at www.sierratimes.com

Big P. S. do you think mabey these "powers that be" could possibly have taken advantage of the current elections to whip folks into this frenzy?

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

Also, I'm kind of hesitant to post on threads like this because i am in no ways as smart, informed, articulate, etc. as alot of you. All I know is that for a long time I have sensed something very, very wrong in our government, our leaders, our schools,our churches, etc. For lack of understanding (and better choice of words) I call this "Babylon"--all that is in opposition to the character of God. All that is contrary to what is just,and pure, and good. This is what i wish to protect my heart from, stand against, and hopefully teach my children to as well!

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 14, 2000.

Sheepish, are people not at all worried in Washington state? If not, they must all be smoking the kind stuff.

As for readying for Y2/revolution, there are a few things I have let slide a little. You know the scenario, work gets in the way of working on the things that will make it possible for you to stop working.

People here in my area seem a bit nervous, but mostly disgusted. Not that there are a ton of rabid Bush fans rallying in the streets, just complete disillusionment with the system. Except for the Wrasslin' fans. They think the two ought to fight it out in a cage match.

Here's the thing, I had heard about this site a long while ago and I went to it last week...I thought, well the guy's name is just goofy and I don't know. Then I kept hearing of the exit polls all this time. This morning that telling statement just jumped out and bit me and it all clicked. The article I posted the link for here was not the same article but didn't differ greatly from the one I saw first, just different in that the telling statement had been moved into the center of a bunch of text drawing much less attention to the statement. I just want to know if this is upsetting to you people or if you just shrug and say, well, that's all right? None of you seem surprised or indignant. That is almost more worrisome than the fact that we've been duped.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 15, 2000.

Sorry, I didn't really mean none of you, just one of those bad generalizations.

I hereby file my retraction of the aforementioned statement and modify it to read..."I am surprised that the level of indignation towards these allegations is as small as it is."

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 15, 2000.

Ammo sales up? Gun season opened this last weekend for hunting.

-- Cindy in Ky (solidrockranch@msn.com), November 15, 2000.

Well, Cindy just explained the ammo sale thing. Totally right, the Bubba's are preparing here for gun season next week, got to stay clear of our woods, for sure. Doreen, I am concerned, but what exactly should we do, unless we personally witnessed an improper voting procedure? If anyone was improperly denied their rights, they should have immediately brought it to the attention of the officials at the voting precinct, and made a stink until their desires were met.

Any voting procedure fraud/fix will come to light, but must be properly documented, right now it seems to be further fueling the fire of general chaos. If people have legitimate complaints, they will be heard, the Constitutional avenue for such concerns already exists, they will not be forgotten, if they are persistent. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 15, 2000.

The problem is, if Clinton has dirty tricks up his sleeve (as he well may) anything we do is going to make matters worse -- even if we don't do anything! If we don't do anything, he gets away with it, and we lose. If we fight back, he declares martial law, possibly even calls in UN troops, and we lose. What can we do to fix things so we don't lose?!? Anybody know? (Pray, I know, but what else?)

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 15, 2000.

What can we do Kathleen?? .

We can get rid of those G*D blessed punch voting machines, that's what! It's the state law in Ohio that if a ballot recount is required, they go straight to hand recount, do not pass Go, do not collect $200, do not use the machines again, unplug the friggin things and use your eyes. .

It's 30-year-old technology whose time has come and gone. One positive thing has come out of this voting mess. State legislatures all over the country are taking a real hard look at the whole process. In Congress, legislators are already swinging into action to find alternative voting methods. GOOD! Let's get on with it. Dust off a place in the Smithonian Museum for the punch card voting machine and be done with it. Good riddence. As a society, our collective brains can surely come up with something better. .

Optical scanners, touch screens, vote by mail, vote by mouse...SOMETHING!

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), November 15, 2000.

Hey Ken in NC: Re your "You know a few years back Clinton passed a law that in effect makes all communication devices (cb's, ham, gmrs), listening devices specifically shortwave radios and scanners (subversive) contraband. At the time I didn't give it much thought I mean Billy boy has passed more "social"/"criminal" laws than 4 presidents combined."

When I hear stuff like this, while it may be true (I dunno) I think its neither realistic nor fair to blame it all on Clinton. Its important to remember he's had a republican controlled congress for both of his terms.

If GW prevails however it wouldn't surprise me to see Clinton run again in 2004. Like it or not and in spite of the scandals he's presided over a booming economy, balanced the budget(with the aid of congress) and maintains a very high approval rating.

A prediction here. If GW prevails watch for deficit spending within 4 yrs. Betcha!

-- john leake (natlivent@pcpros.net), November 15, 2000.

Craig, I think you hit the nail directly on the head! That's why the hand counts come up different than the machine counts, human eyes can see the difference, where the machine cannot. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 15, 2000.

You are avoiding the issue here. Human eyes are also linked to human minds which are linked to human preferences. Oaths mean nothing as evidenced by our illustrious leader, and THE ELECTIONS ARE RIGGED!!! (see me jumping up and down and begging you to please address that topic!)

Kathleen, if we stand up for what is right and we get knocked on our butts, isn't that more in line with the mind of Christ than worrying about whether we will win or lose the battle? We know who wins the war.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 15, 2000.

Doreen, I re-read all the info on the votescam.com website, and it seems that their main contention is that the vote counting is not "overseen" by independent officials. Valid argument, I agree. But, how come in every state that requires a hand recount in event of a close decision, like here in OH it is automatic, that the hand recount, which is monitored by both parties, and independent parties also (at least here in OH it is), closely matches the machine count, unless an actual computer glitch is uncovered, as in NM this year. If indeed the vote is "fixed", how are all these people that are involved in the hand re-counts bribed to suit the needs of the "fixers"? And how does the vote by the Electors on December 18 fit into this vote fixing? Are they also bribed into voting the "required" way? I don't doubt your reasons for being outraged, but I would be interested in the answer to these questions. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 15, 2000.

Sorry, folks, but I couldn't read all the posts. It was getting a bit too paranoid for me. Come on; this stuff about Clinton wanting to stay in office is silly. This is the same kind of pap which was being bantied around during y2k.

Get a grip; it ain't happening.

JOJ

-- jumpoffjoe (jumpoff@echoweb.net), November 15, 2000.

Yeah, we really aren't smoking anything out here. We are a state that values diversity, and we have a long history of both Reps and Dems getting along (for the most part) with the populace and each other. Imagine!!!

Anyway Re: WA State Senate race:

From the Seattle Times

btw, Fair use, educational us only , etc: * * * * * * * Tuesday, November 14, 2000, 12:12 a.m. Pacific

Gorton staying ahead of Cantwell, but state recount is likely

by Dionne Searcey Seattle Times staff reporter U.S. Sen. Slade Gorton widened his lead over Democratic challenger Maria Cantwell yesterday after more absentee ballots were counted in 18 counties.

At the end of the day, Gorton was up 12,532 votes - or by 0.61 percent. On Sunday, he led by 5,353 votes, or 0.26 percent.

The latest batch of results, coming from mostly rural areas and Pierce County, didn't do much to point to a winner in the race that has stagnated for a week.

A more clear indicator might come from King County's count today of 80,000 ballots - about half of its outstanding votes. Cantwell has been beating Gorton in the populous county, which could offset his lead in most areas outside the Seattle area.

A Seattle Times analysis shows that the race is still on course for a dead heat and is likely to end up in a recount. The state automatically calls a recount if the final tally is within one half of 1 percent.

The analysis is based on the assumption that the counties have accurately estimated the number of ballots yet to be counted.

Neither candidate plans to declare victory or concede based on today's results. With an estimated 320,841 ballots yet to be counted statewide, both think a winner could emerge later this week.

"There's so much information still out there that it would be impossible to give firm predictions," said Heidi Kelly, Gorton's campaign manager.

Both Gorton, a three-term incumbent, and Cantwell, a high-tech millionaire and former congresswoman, still remain confident they will win.

Gorton has been right so far in an Election Day prediction: Absentee voters have favored him. An analysis shows that of absentees cast between Gorton and Cantwell, he has received 51.5 percent of votes counted since Wednesday, while Cantwell has gotten 48.5 percent. (These percentages do not account for votes going to Libertarian candidate Jeff Jared.)

The Senate race may not be the only race where a recount looms.

The secretary of state's race remains within the margin that would trigger an automatic recount, as Republican Sam Reed led Democrat Don Bonker by 1,852 votes, or 0.1 percent (one-tenth of 1 percent).

Some of the uncounted absentees are from overseas and haven't even been delivered.

"There's a misperception that ballots just arrive over at the courthouse and you can rip them open and throw them in a processor," said David Brine, spokesman for Secretary of State Ralph Munro. "It's manually time-consuming. You can't get around it. If you start to compress the time, you're potentially cutting corners on the accuracy of the count."

If a recount is held in any statewide race, it would begin after all 39 counties certify their results Nov. 22. The earliest recount tally would be available on Dec. 1, but the state would have until Dec. 7 to complete it.

The Senate race, meanwhile, is being measured in minuscule ways. As results trickle in by the hour, every slight gain is scrutinized, every percentage analyzed, every number crunched and re-crunched by each campaign's team of experts.

Ron Dotzauer, Cantwell's campaign manager, was excited by the slightest shift in Pierce County's count yesterday, even though Cantwell was technically losing there by 1,563 votes.

"We got a half-percent increase, he got a 1.2 percent decline, and Jared got a 0.7 percent increase," Dotzauer said. "We love it!"

Cantwell hadn't been into her campaign office but was keeping tabs from her home in Edmonds.

Gorton had planned to travel to Washington, D.C., but because there wasn't much to do there, he stayed in his Bellevue home, Kelly said.

Copyright © 2000 The Seattle Times Company

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 15, 2000.

Annie, the lack of independent observation is a large problem, but not as large as the FACT that VNS is owned by six major networks and print media as well. Also the fact that they won't disclose how they do things like hire or project and they are close to perfect on their "exit polls" and have published them on ABC two years ago the day before the election and then they were only wrong on the numbers in one race, (Chuck Schumer sp? NY). That is pretty damning on the rigged side of the story. No? Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...I think it's an OSTRICH!

As for voter fraud, my friend from Oregon who voted for Nader told me she was sent two ballots. One to work one to home. Since she is very honest she only sent one in, but obviously many people aren't that honest. How about the college students who had no compunction at all about going on tv and saying they voted early and often, some as many as ten times in Wisconsin...gotta cigarette? I could go on and on, but what's the point? Because some races go the way most people expect and the numbers seem to gel they all must be good, right? And if they aren't it doesn't really matter because we are a what? I swear to you that if I hear one more person saying that we are a democracy I will vomit. Think about this, a democracy is mob rule. We are a republic. Only now we are indeed a Banana Republic.

JOJ, I'm glad you think all of the concern over the possibility of Ceasar Bill is paranoia. I hope you're right. And Sheepish, I am glad your numbers are adding up despite the smoke. Heck they even got the 1.2% variances correct. Now I am sure that the people in Florida were all bought by Bush to make the counts wrong the first two times. (:just using popular logic:)

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 16, 2000.

Doreen, I agree that there are small, isolated, incedences of voter fraud, there will be as long as we as human beings have a will to do both good, and evil, it is our nature, unfortunately. But, if the voting is "rigged", which as a large scale possibility I am discounting at this point, how do you explain the unheard of 15% of the vote that Ross Perot garnered in that presidential election, seems to me that the "powers that be" would have never allowed that to happen, that 15% really shook up the two party system at the time, and made them step back and realize that they had a real contender to deal with, that the People had spoken, and maybe they better "worry" a little about the possible implications of that. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 16, 2000.

Now folks I don't want to step on any toes, but I have one question to ask: How come only the folks wanting to vote for Gore had trouble reading and punching the ticket?? Any comments?

-- Glenda J. (GJHOL909@aol.com), November 17, 2000.

Worldnetdaily has quite a few article on the voting fraud in Florida. Today there was an article about a Deomcrat politician being caught with a stolen voting machine, hole puncher thingy. The demos are brazenly committing fraud and "we the people" don't seem to be able to do anything about it.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), November 17, 2000.

There is a literal TON of voter fraud in this election. It is proven, but as Laura said, "wee the people" won't do anything about it.

Annie, for a person who says that they have prepared for "revolution" or dysfunction, you sure have a lot of faith in the stinking corrupt system and politicians as they stand...seems inconsistent with your ideologies.

Look at this place!!! Courts are corrupt, people don't even know that civil disobedience isn't not buying icecream on a particular day.....We've had it folks. Whichever puppet we end up with if people don't stop trusting th main programming that is shoved down and throats and nap to the FACT that "We the Peeople" are the ones responsible we will be shooting eachother in the not too distant future.I reckon the Republicans are better supplied with munitions.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 17, 2000.

How about the 600 vote in New Mexico that didn't originally go to Al Gore b/c someone had written a "1" instead of a "6" in front of the double zeros on the tally sheet? Hmm. Doubt it was the Dems. Also in New Mexico, they settled one of their election results with a poker hand (Five card stud) in the past few years....someone from NM with the details, I would love to hear more.

Look people, there's voter "discrepancies" (or whatever you chose to call them) on both sides. There's also plenty of stuff I hear on the news or read on the net or in the paper indicting the Republicans. I don't post it b/c I am sick of all the bitching and partisanship going on and am weary of reading yet one more spin.

I must say that I am continually wonderous about how Washington State, which has an extremely tight election going on (dead heat for U.S. Senator) can still manage to conduct a decent election: Planning for probable recounts, no bitching about the ballot designs, and folks looking forward to the outcome....no matter who the winner is, (more or less.)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 17, 2000.

Glenda. Not sure if this answers your question, but as I understand it, the counties that had voting for Gore issues in Florida also were the counties with the old voting equipment. So in a tight election, and with the mandatory recounts, it may have been that the issue would have been Bush people fighting for a hand re-count. Who knows? The equipment and voting methods don't serve to accurately report the will of the people, is the contention.

I think people have made up their mind about whatever happened by now. They have decided whether or not they think this election was corrupt, or whether it was inept, or whether the Democrats or Republicans are good/bad, etc. It always boils down to most people needing to see things in black and white.Guess it makes them feel secure (or insecure...whatever they like to feel. Some people must like to live in a perpetual state of angst or paranoia, I guess. I "visit" there from time to time, but I don't want to live there!)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 17, 2000.

Doreen, I will continue to have faith in the Electoral College system until it is corrupt by a greater percentage than it is now, OR until a better system allowed under the Constitution comes along. If you have a Constitutional solution that can be implimented NOW, I would be happy to hear it. I do get disgusted with people who complain and do not offer solutions that are valid under the Constitution as it stands. It is easy to make a mockery of a system that I believe to be better than 90% efficient at this point, considering total votes involved, but am very eagerly awaiting rational SOLUTIONS, not gripes. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 17, 2000.

Doreen, I forgot to clarify a point, I have faith in the system, the Electoral College, that elected the politicians, NOT the politicians themselves, there is a big difference there. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 17, 2000.

For the record, when I speak of revoution, I do not mean the guns, blood, and gore, (no pun intended) type revolution, God forbid we ever have another Civil War, that did nothing to help our country move forward, but the type of revolution were people wake up, and realize that THEY alone are responsible for the problems in this country, and make the changes nesessary to improve it. My favorite method of making the Federal government more subserviant to it's constituents is federal income taxes, social security taxes, etc., ie., the non-payment of the above. If we don't pay up, the Feds will have to take notice, no money, no power; a big change made to get the money coming back. In effect, hold the Federal government "hostage" from revenues, until compliances are made. Believe me, I'm doing my part in this to the extreme, I won't elaborate any further. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 17, 2000.

Annie, how do you continue the revolution when you are in jail for non-payment of your taxes? One would have to presume that people would be willing to carry on the work you have intiated. I doubt that people are that motivated. Even those folks discussed on other threads,(farmers, truckers etc.) have too much material wealth to risk losing any of it, by breaking the tax laws.

People are comfortable. People are not idealogues. People want to be fat and happy. People forgot all about Y2k. People will forget this election, and move on to buying stuff for Christmas.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 18, 2000.

Sheepish, it's like the sit-ins of the 1970's, except on a bigger scale, if enough people participate, how do you punish them all? If only 10% of the people currently paying Federal income tax stop paying, the Feds will feel it in the pockets. Once the public realizes whats happening, more and more will be doing the same thing, the snowball effect in force. We have the Constitution on our side, Federal income taxes are unconstitutional, period. I have nothing against paying State taxes, county taxes, or real estate taxes, but Federal taxes are unconstitutional. FDR should have thought of that key point when he started social security long ago, if there was ever a "socialist" president, he certainly qualifies.

I am quite willing to go to jail for my crime, would draw the attention of the rest of the public to hopefully join in the "rebellion". If not, at least I stand up for what I believe in, and believe to be wrong. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 18, 2000.

I've been in my share of demonstrations, believe me. I have also done doorbelling, calling, letter writing, the rare impromptu speech, etc.

Historical perspective: When we were at war in Vietnam, a lot more people were galvanized into action. Sons, brothers, fathers, some sisters, daughters, and friends were being sent off to a war that a lot of people did not believe in. Some of these same friends and relatives returned in body bags, or did not return at all. Our country was deeply divided.

Back to now: While I respect the fact that 10% of the population not paying taxes, or going to jail, or whatever, would indeed have an effect on the way things are, I don't think we have issues that *enough* people would consider important *enough* to risk compromising their comfort for. My point is that the population is more or less comfortable with how things are. There was an impeachment (yawn). Now there is a very bizarre election (yawn).

I am not saying that the issues we face are not important. Far from it. I am just saying that despite all the grumbling over the election, most people see it as some kind of entertainment, not a fundamental wrong turn for our nation. Therefore, they are not going to be out in the street, unless it's lining up for the Day After Thanksgiving Sale or something.

Guess I am cynical after observing protests for 35+ years. my $.02.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 18, 2000.

I understand what you are saying, Sheepish, I guess I'm just too d*** stubborn to give in :-)! That definitely is a genetic "flaw" I have. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 18, 2000.

I may actually get off my butt and do something this time around, too. Sheesh. Why don't the young folk step up and speak out? Do we have to do EVERYTHING? ;) Where's those Nader kids?

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 18, 2000.

Annie, when have I EVER promoted an UN Constitutional action for anything political? The problem is that most people don't know or don't care about the Constitution. I am DEEPLY for all Constiituional solutions. One of which is indeed the DUTY of the ppeople to overthrow the Government when it fails to adhere to such. Constitutional solution to this problem...already in place. Voter fraud should not be overseen by the very perpetrators of the act! Just like Reno shouldn't appoint the people who investigate her. they keep saying on the news that we aren't YET in a Constituional crises. I say we have been in one since FDR. Solution is for the people to get themselves educated and agitated and take it to the streets.

Tax protests....the IRS has zero right to collect income tax period. But we still pay. Because we are dumb, fat and happy like catlle ripe for slaughter. We have material goods and we think we are free. How many people keep saying things like..."we're still the best country"? That shows how deep this lie has become. We are still free to speak, but start truly threatening the power structure with the spread of knowledge and you end up like the Grays, or like other people put in Federal prisons.

Sheepish was right about the yawn factor. "Give us this day our daily illusion and we won't bother to learn the truth about your colussions."

Anyway, this gets crazier with every passing day.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), November 19, 2000.

Doreen, there is lots we DO agree about, I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks FDR is responsible for sending us in the direction of a socialist state, honest to goodness, if it were not for the Depression, I believe he would have been impeached for breaking the Constitution far too many times!

The whole income tax thing really turns my crank, and most everyone else that is self employed thinks the same way, there is definite hope that this segment of the population will revolt in the very near future concerning Federal taxes. We are tired of paying everyone elses way, for far too long.

I do get in a quandary sometimes on what to do about it, other than what I myself am doing personally, how to best impliment change non- violently, and I apologize if my frustrations come across on my posts towards anyone. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 19, 2000.

I have been following this forum for some time now, as alot of you seem to share my own belief's. Just watched crossfire on tv and it occured to me that in order to determine the intent of the Florida voter , they should bring someone from the Psyshic Hotline. They could hold the ballot next to their head ,like Johnny Carson did and make a s.w.a.g. as to the intent of the voter. I agree that this is an outrage, but we need to find a way to organaize,and let our outrage be known. Maybe by contacting our congressmen, and asking them to speak out for us, after all, we elected them to represent us,and it is time to let them know how we feel.

-- Skinner (bjones@tnns.net), November 19, 2000.

Doreen:

On the exit polling, item on TV this weekend. Apparently what happened is the Democrats made a huge effort in predominately minority precincts and did a good job of getting them to the voting station. However, the forgot to educate them on how to use the punch card system and it is believe they are mostly the ones who double punched. Who was I suspose to vote for? Bush - punch. No, no it was Gore - punch. When the exited they truthfully said, yes I voted for Gore, when their vote ended up not counting.

Still looks like a recount will not get Gore the numbers he needs.

I don't have a problem with the loser in the overall vote not being elected. It has happened in the past and will happen again in the future. In the past the loser has been gracious about it, such as Nixon not challenging the vote of the dead in Chicago. The Electorial College is indeed part of the checks and balances part of the Constitution.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), November 20, 2000.

I have not yet decided what could help out the situation, but on the subject of vote type. Here where I live, we draw a line connecting the arrow to which we want to vote for, real easy, no mailing the ballot in, you have to go to a designated place to do it. Perhaps all those people in Florida that didn't like the ballot after it looked like their person wasn't going to win...should have a ballot like that, no mistakes, if there is a re-count, no problem, there is no question about what the person meant. If they draw more then one candidate, the machine spits the ballot back out. ( I actually saw it spit one guys out!) I think they should settle this, perhaps, by counting counties, go by how many counties were won, not how many people. Who is to say that the people in Florida get to have the most say in who is president for example. Or for example...the cities in California..they have the most people...but is that fair to the rest of the country to go by what they believe is best for everyone? Am I making any sense? All of my children have had the flu, all at once, now for a week, I am going stir crazy (or just plain crazy) (I have 6 children btw) anyway, I hear some more coughing in the background, off to get the cool mist going. Or the hot shower...depends...have a good day!

-- Cindy in OK (cynthiacluck@yahoo.com), November 20, 2000.

There's a new consolidated thread for posting political stuff related to the elections, should you all want to post there...one for each week or until too full and needing to start another on. Or continue posting to the ones started. But check it out. thx

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 20, 2000.