I went to the NUFC 'Shareholders Open Day' yesterday, and finished up having an extended conversation with Russell Cushing. I'd spoken to him on the telephone a couple of weeks ago regarding a problem Ginga had over a lost ticket.

Incidentally, the new facilities in the Milburn Stand are splendid - absolutely top class. Freddie Shephard was 'doing lunch' in the Magpie Room with who I believe was the rather attractive Karen Brady - Chief Executive of Birmingham City.

RC said that following our original conversation he hadn't been able to find the Greenspun bbs site, and is clearly anxious to do so. He said they like to track what is being said on the various internet bulletin boards - however, this appears to be being done on an 'ad hoc' rather than any organised basis.

I briefly explained to him the history of this bbs, and its migration from the Official Site, and indicated some of our concerns about the present OS. I told him that I've checked out most if not all of the Toon bbs sites, and believe this is by far the best, with about 2,000 'members' world-wide - a figure Dunx recently quoted.

I finished up by saying said I would provide him with the URL and how to get a password. However, on reflection I feel I need to ask you all whether you are comfortable with me doing this. The question is, are we comfortable having our discussions monitored - however casually - by NUFC management?

I took the opportunity to tell RC that I've volunteered to write to the Club over our concerns on the Official Site, and to offer some suggestions for improvement. We agreed that I should direct this letter to David Stonehouse (Chief Executive), but also let RC have a copy. He said they are not particularly happy with the OS either, and would welcome our suggestions.

The inter-relationship between our own bbs and that on the Official Site is one that troubles me in getting into this issue, and sooner or later this will need to be addressed. However, treating them as separate issues for now, if we felt comfortable letting the Club "in" on the Greenspun bbs, I would like to try to persuade them to directly contribute, rather than just lurking and monitoring our discussions. This could hopefully provide us with the opportunity to pose questions to the Club directly, and allow them to respond.
If this worked well, we could then even consider asking them to provide us access to BR, and even some of the players, on the same basis.
I have to say that if it really progressed that far, it would be crazy to have this all occurring on an unofficial site/bbs - which takes me back to my opening remark.

PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU THINK. In responding, bear in mind that it would actually be relatively easy for them just to ignore me, find the site, obtain a password anonymously, and lurk - in fact, for all we know maybe they already are!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Answers

It is important that they are 'in touch' with the general opinions of the fans and it is pleasing that they do not rate the official site.

Do we have any way of finding out if they don't already post/lurk on here!! For instance I can't believe that the players do not have Internet access and if I had it as a player I'd want to see what the fans were talking about.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Personally I'm not bothered.....just don't expect me to stop talking about sex cos we've got some ppl from the club on ;))

We occasionally have very good discussions, suggestions and even criticisms which they'd be wise to take on board, however it's still mostly a social area so as long they don't expect us to make sense all the time then they're fine ;)

Now what was Freddie upto with Porno Queen?

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I forgot that bit, Gav. Are they making plans for the visit to Brum in the worth cup (Why not at Brum then), was she looking at the impressive new stadium or were they brokering a transfer? Surely not one of their players to Toon, but a couple of our non-achievers to Brum??

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Russell you'd better be in the bliddy Strawbeery by 2.00 marra , oh aye and di you mange to get us that programme from the Bradford i was after .. i know you get them free with your tea , so divvent be shy ; - ) Gav i suppose that means ill have to be quiet about that meeting with Douglas' wife now you dirty get ...

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I have absolutely no problem with any NUFC personnel accessing this BBS whether they lurk or contribute.

I don't see the need to have this forum as part of the official site. It's like a pub that we drop into from time to time and chat over anything that pleases.

If a NUFC official wanted to drop in for a chat in our pub then that's fine but it should remain as our 'pub' and not as part of the NUFC PR machine.

In the same way I would hate to see Niall and Biffa do the official site as it would lose a lot of it's appeal. The NUFC site should be more professional and have up-to-date accurate information. That's all.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I suspect they don't really give a monkey's and that a polite bit of lip service was being paid by MrCushing. Let them look all they like but don't let them touch.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Gav,

I'm sure FS would get a real buzz from some of the 'livelier' discussions on here! Could become a bosom buddy, so to speak! DB,

Dunx isn't aware of them having a password - but, of course, they could have done so anonymously. However, unless RC is an extremely good liar, I really don't believe they are onto us as yet.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Dave,

I thought one of the most interesting things RC said yesterday was "what few fans appreciate is that were all basically just fans ourselves, doing everything we can to make the Club successful, but we're not infallible, and yes we've made a lot of mistakes".
My answer was "well why the hell don't you just say that to the punters - nobody expects you to be infallible?"

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Dunx - you will let us all know when Imdefinatelynotfreddieshepherd@hotmail.com asks for a login.
Gav can start the "Any decent brothels in Marbella" thread.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

AFAIK, no-one from the club has a password for the BBS. I usually ask for a bit of background for new folks who's pseudonym or email address I don't recognise; friendly like...where they're living etc. As for paying lip service, at one level, the club are well aware of what good web sites and good web-based PR can mean for them. This was certainly implied by an amount of legal sabre rattling towards Niall and Biffa.....

Why not give them the password on the understanding that they can lurk for a month, and that they then agree to come online formally once a month (fortnightly or whatever) and answer specific questions directly.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Dunc - can't you set up a password just for them, let them use it for a month then take it away?

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

We could have a monthly meeting on a day which runs in line with whatever meeting they have that deals with the issues of the fans, if they have any.

Concerning, players lurking on here. I don't think it is too hard to find out about the existance of this site ,even if you aren't looking for it, on the web. With all due respect Dunx I reckon they could get the password without too much bother.

If any are lurking I'd like to say you're all brilliant and good luck for Saturday..............retreats and lurks for rest of day!!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

But YBR would win the team pick comp every season :-((

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Indeed he would.... but I'd keep docking him points for picking Kevin Dyer

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Good and bad idea I reckon. It might make us a bit conscious of what we write and influence our posts on the team and general running of the club. Id hate to think players might one day read what we write- at times we are definetly over critical, espec recently regarding Dyer IMHO. The thing is, theres no other forum though that is as civilised (mostly ;-) ) and thought provoking as our own. Its definetly on a different par from your typical forum in any field of interest. Its the perfect place for NUFC to read constructive criticism on a regular basis. As I said though(unlikely as it may be)Id be very wary of players getting in. We(including myself) often slag players/the team off without knowing even half of the facts. Criticism last year of Goma is another good example. A lot of us thought he was crap when in actual fact he was injured and not match fit/settled in when he DID get a game. Waffle over ;-)

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Dyer got a slating from some on here last week and had arguably his best game this season against Leicester.............didn't you Keiron??!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Proof that LKD reads the bbs!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

We should welcome the opportunity for the club to listen and perhaps act on what we the fans discuss. Although I am concerned about this being hijacked by supporters of other clubs, simply coming on here and causing friction as it were. This would of course give the opinion that this is not a serious site but simply full of non vested fans. The opposite of what we actually are.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Never had to do it, but if people (be they Geordies or otherwise) who access this site behave badly, there's a range of things I can do to get rid of them, so any potential slump coz of a hijack can be pretty effectively stomped.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

For what`s its worth Clarky and why do I feel I am going to get all on here confused!! are my opinions, firstly why do we use the term - "Unnoficial BB`s", it has been stated on here we are more like a club, IMHO, long may it be so, no restriction on new subscribers, we are talking from a position of strength, all of us have seen other boards, do we want to finish up like those? Do not expect any of the playing staff to contribute to any discussion especially football on here, it would not surprise me if written in their contracts is a clause "Thou shalt not enter into any media or net discussion about your club, fellow professionals etc etc" Nothing wrong about them lurking tho, they do like to read about themselves and Gav`s right you know, they will get more enjoyment I feel reading about his sexploits or lack of. Human nature but i will guarantee this, if the playing staff signed on here en-bloc the whole nature of this forum would change, we would in one foul swoop attempt to outdo each other in our football related postings, tactics, formations, players strenghts/weaknesses, sorry Clarky but you did ask Taking up Clark`s challenge a wee bit further, with the mechanism in place and contact made with RC I feel there have been debates and suggestions on here, long forgotten that in the long term would have been of great benifet to our club. These in the main usually revolved around admin cock-ups, tickets, the way ahead, now if we had a elected spokesperson(well done Clarky), who had full reign if he saw fit to send our revelant concerns, cut,n,paste, print and mail whatever to RC or whoever in a monthly newletter form, nothing to say, don`t say it, I am sure we will get dialogue between our two organizations. To summarise, punters wish to come on this forum, yes in favour, we go onto another forum, no no way, players on here expressing their views, forget it, get more from the SAS, if they want to lurk and send us a Xmas message to say they have been, that`s a bonus . I am in favour of having this outstretched hand to a spokesperson for the club

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Blimey, Buff, that's a hell of a long sentence...do you ever stop for breath?

;-))

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

This thread is beginning to worry me since the issue seems to be who has access - not a million miles away from censorship.

LR, the fascist, would love this navel gazing & I'm sure he'll drop in to offer his two-pennorth. We let him in to post and (most of us) enjoy his wind-ups. We shouldn't be even thinking of putting conditions on entry (once or twice per month) for these guys.

Go on. Be outrageous and daring. Let em in. Now. Unconditional.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

It would be very interesting to see how the Club get on with a "lively" bunch of fans in this sort of environment. Certainly, it's an experiment worthy of trying.

Only concern is some of the more litigious articles we've all been guilty of posting being used against us. But it's worth a try and see if it makes a difference. That's got to be the point, hasn't it?

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Disagree....don't let em in, don't turn it into another RTG....you can at least hear yourself think here without all that crappy abuse....

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Hmm?? I`ve thunk and thunk, and on balance I think it probably would be a good thing to give RC the password. I personally would prefer him not to simply lurk, but wouldn`t expect much more than an acknowledgement once in a while that he`s been taking a peek. Let`s face it, no-one from the Club is going to enter into a public, albeit passworded, debate on the internet.

I like the idea of someone on here having the `Queen`s Ear` so to speak. I would be very happy to have, say Clarky, pointing him in the direction of some of the really good threads on here.

On the downside, I think if there is too much direct contact via the BBs, the tone is bound to change. However, I think that particular scenario is unlikely. (:o)

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Galaxy

Who is the Queen, then? S/he must be very discreet - I've not noticed any particularly camp behaviour.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Sounds good to me Clarky. I hope you told them about the wonderful unofficial sites that are around.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Not since "The Hairdresser" left anyway - sh*t is that libellous?

Look on the positive side gang - if anyone on here goes to jail it's bound to be me!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Toon expat - well, I kind of thought it was a well know expression, BUT, it is equally likely that it could just have been something I misheard, or made up, or imagined!!! Seems to happen a lot lately! (:o\

Bobby - I too was a little concerned about the point you raised about possible litigation!(:o)

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Galaxy,

I've been discussing this potential libel issue with Dougal recently.
The reality of the situation is that we must all be more careful about libelling individuals in our posts - irrespective of whether Mr. Cushing were logging on now and then.
We MUST all assume that our posts could be read by those we're criticising, and word them accordingly. Frankly, I'm one who needs to follow this advice more than most.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I'm all for people at the club having the password and url to this board. They definitely do check out online sites, but it does appear a bit haphazard. That is how they ended up at the Toonarmyusa "official" (ha) hotel in columbus. John Carver told me their original hotel info had been posted on the net, he had no idea which site, so they decided to switch so as not to be mobbed by supporters. What they didn't check was toonarmyusa.com (the US agents for Club United!) to see we'd gotten a group rate and had been advising supporters to stay at the Holiday Inn for months. The HI was the only thing available when they changed, so that's how a lucky few of us wound up in Toon heaven. Then again some of the team were probably in heaven to find the place mobbed by teenage girl's softball teams. ;-)

Anyhow...I have no problem with them monitoring this site. I would hope they'd contribute, but don't expect it. Nor do I expect the tone of this bbs to change at all. We're all here because of the uniqueness of this. I became a Toon supporter because of everyone on this bbs.

Definitely don't think we should pursue any "official" affiliation with NUFC and the official site. Can't remember who called us the virtual pub up above, but that's how I think we should stay. Should the club come up with a decent official bbs, no doubt some of us will read/post over there.

As far as players reading the bbs, doesn't bother me either. They have to realize if they go off reading supporter bbs's/fanzines/etc they're going to read criticism, fair or not. However I'm not sure Dyer should be turned loose on the same bbs as Gav and Sting! ;-))

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I have no problem with the club having access to the site. I doubt if much would be useful to them, (although obviously, Gav might be able to supply some useful tips).

What they have to say might be useful to us. So, for example, when an important announcement is made (financial results, transfers, policy initiatives etc) it would be interesting if a club official posted something and then fielded our queries. It would be nice to see that 19m "loss on player trading" explained, for example, as all of us were very puzzled by that.

As regards the libel issue I really can't see a problem. Clarky, you may have criticised the board on occasion but all you have done is express an opinion about performance, and that cannot be held to be libel, otherwise TSM would be able to sue virtually every Toon fan in the World.

I'm sure that the web would be an excellent medium the club can use to reach out to the fans and mend the broken bridges of last season. Whether they should best do this via a single site of their own and invite contributions, or whether they reach out to several sites such as this is a moot point but I'm sure we would all welcome any involvement of the club management or playing staff on here.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Clarky do you happen to know if you have any rights over something you have posted on the internet? Just idle curiosity really, but is there any reason why, say, a journalist can`t lift a complete thread and publish it in a newspaper, for instance? No specific reason for asking, just a passing thought about legal matters.(:o)

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I think that happened a few times in the days of HMS Communicata. They've also lifted things directly from nufc.com and similar sites. I've no idea of the rights issues, but can't imagine any average poster really has any say unless you copyright your posts.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

It's a free world, the internet. There's absolutely no reason why RC and his chums shouldn't get access on here. The issue is whether they want to be recognised as representing NUFC or whether they simply want to lurk, or brag about their sexual conquests like Gav some on here.

I think that if they don't already, then it would be beneficial to them. Isn't that why we've got Stevie Wraith as a fans champion? Well, without casting any nasturtiums about somebody I know nowt about, any representative can be selective with the information they pass on. If we behave as we do right now (I wouldn't change my attitude if I knew YBR, RC or FS were watching - BTW, I love that car Freddie, and Bobby, if it was up to me you'd have a knighthood). If they choose to listen to what we say then fine.

I do not expect an orificial response to any comments - nice tho it would be. However, if it shows that there is a more serious side to NUFC fans' debate than is exhibitted on the Orificial chat room, then fine. Unfortunately, if we were to become more widely known and accessed, I think the level of contribution would go down significantly - especially if Gav and LKD were exchanging experiences. BTW - I see Yelli's been absent again for a while.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

"I do not expect an orificial response to any comments - nice tho it would be....".

Screacher,

Check out the "Shocking" thread for an Official NUFC response to an issue I raised with them by e-mail just this morning.

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Give 'em access. On the condition that they agree not to publish without consent.

One of the problems of the official site is that there's nothing worth visiting it for - something that you can't direct at this forum or dailytoon etc. It's also a lack of 'personality' - again, something that's hardly missing here...

However, i'm with Buff in that i wouldn't want to see 'an interview with LKD' type threads on here unless they're actually worth reading. I suspect,as a plc, they'll be worth nothing. A xmas card's probably the best idea. Otherwise we'd all end up arguing about what AS really meant when he said "I think you're all great, except Gav and a few of you who said i was past my best". that's not what we're about.

The reason this works is precisely because we don't have to worry [or think sometimes] about what we're saying.

It'd be nice to have a BBS/NUFC liaison occifer though who could get the gen on the club's thinking, transfers etc. Finger on the pulse of 'the people' and 'the club' - as if they're not one and the same...

PS: Re:libel - can't we just have a disclaimer on sign in?

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

I don't see any reason why they can't be invited to take part in this forum the more the better....certainly as far as restricting what is written.....it wouldn't bother me to think they were reading what I put in.....and anyway, tracing an E Mail address without a real address attached to it is pretty difficult.

I reckon it would be good to have them around as it would give them an insight into what the paying public really think sometimes.....and face it, it's not always bad.

If they do, as stated, lurk around a few of the other boards, they must get totally sick of readong the abuse that is flung for no better reason that the person is logged on.....that's the beauty of this forum, you have to wait for and then remember the password so you have to want to get in in the first plae, which suggests that most of the posters are supporters of the club in question. I know I have logged onto some boards (Arese & Chews) and have wanted to input, but then found I need a password so have logged off without bothering.

Let them in........

Clarky, as far as the official site is concerned.......as it is likely that I could be made redundant come next April, and I would be looking for a job....can you put a word in for me....I could do it long distance from down here and still do a better job than they are currently doing!

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Clarky - my comment about not expecting a reply was perhaps misunderstood. What I intended was that I'd welcome their comments, but I would not expect them to reply, just because they were on the BBS - as opposed to believing that they should reply. Far from it - it is a fans forum. If they want to find out what real fans are discussing or wich to partake of the discussion, then fine, but no expectations nor duties.

Nice to see you got a response tho - however truthful it was. Oops - sorry - I didn't mean that last bit :-)

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

My opinion, for what it's worth is this. I would welcome the "management" to this site with open arms. They can monitor, read, perhaps even participate. They would realize this: Wherever you go, whatever you do, there will always be a Geordie, there will always be a Newcastle supporter. Some of us can't get to the ground because we live now far far away. Some of us can't get to the ground because we don't have season tickets. Some of us just cannot afford it anyway. But that in no way detracts from our feelings, hopes, wishes and/or dreams for the team. Nor our enjoyment of our childhood first love (NUFC), nor from the heartache the team/club/management causes us all when they screw up. It's about money these days, but guess what, it's about a lot more than money. Even in the "no money" days of Lord Westwood et al, it was about more than money. Let them in, nay Clarky, invite them in. Let them see/feel/hear what the grassroots have to say.

Pete

-- Anonymous, November 15, 2000

Thanks for all the thoughtful feedback gang - yet another demonstration, if it were needed, of what a very special community this really is. It's a priviledge to be part of it.

I hope I'm accurately capturing the concensus view that seems to be against any form of censorship, feeling that we should allow the Club unfettered access to the site - and without any strings/conditions attached.

The other common view seems to be that we shouldn't expect too much in return - partly because of the regulatory requirements for a plc to ensure concurrent communication to all stakeholders. Actually, this is mandated by the LSE to avoid what is technically referred to as "selective disclosure".

I have to say that I'm more optimistic over what could be achieved - if, of course, the Club saw the value and were interested in making the effort.

Interestingly, there doesn't appear to be too much interest in having the players participate. Buff also makes a very good point when he says it is doubtful the players would be allowed to 'shoot from the hip' on a bbs like this when it could potentially cause problems for the Club - and the Club could easily prevent them from doing so contractually.

Finally, there seems to be a strong concensus that whatever improvements were made to the Official Site - and indeed that we wish to see made - we would intend to maintain a strong independent unofficial discussion forum. I believe our view is that the OS's primary role should be a provider of timely, current and accurate Club information.

If anyone feels this summary is wildly off-beam please let me know today. If you are generally comfortable with the aforegoing, I will communicate those views to Mr. Cushing tomorrow, provide him with the Greenspun URL, and advise him to e-mail Dunx for a password.

Many thanks for your help.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

Thanks, Clarky! Byh the way, do you remember the threads about Warren Barton when we were on Communicata? Makes me blush to think about him seeing those.

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

Surely we could have an online referendum with one of those fangled voting programs?

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000

DB,

I thought that was what I'd just done?

-- Anonymous, November 16, 2000