I am just wondering that assuming they ever decide whose president how we all decide our next problem? I know I would have a hard time getting behind a Gore presidency, and I am assuming the liberals feel the same about a Bush presidency. How in the world can this ever be resolved then? As I see it neither one of these guys is going to come out a winner. Does anyone here see this as coming to an acceptable conclusion?

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 17, 2000

Answers

What worries me is that we will have 4 years of nothing. Neither man is going to be able to pull in the opposition, because half the country will see it as an illegitimate presidency. The opposing side of the House and Senate will adhere to strict partisan lines and handcuff any opposing legislation that is proposed. We will have a 4 year moratorium on any progress. Here's a thought.. remember in the movie "For Love of the Game" when Costner's character quits baseball for love of the game? What if George W. were to announce that "for the love of the country, and in it's best interest", he will bow out of the race? He could wait 4 years, then own the presidency. He would have been the bigger man, the one putting his country before his own desires. If anyone has his ear, pass this idea along. Not that I want Gore to be president, but I'd love to see Bush be the hero and possibly have 8 years in office

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), November 17, 2000.

Four years of no new govt. programs, no new big spending bills, no radical legistlation from either side. Sounds like we all win.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 17, 2000.

Whoever gets it will be a caretaker president, kinda like going in as a lame duck. The one who wins will have to "court" the other party and will have a difficult time getting legislation or appointments through the senate for approval. Will in all likelyhood be a very uneventful 4 years admin. wise. In all likelyhood the winner will probally only have the one term. This wasn't mudslinging, they have trucked it in . On the up side, I saw a financial program that said "Wall Street loves gridlock in politics" so the economy may do o.k. once it settles down to the quiet caretaker scenerio.

-- Jay Blair in N. AL (jayblair678@yahoo.com), November 17, 2000.

Very early in this fraud we call an election, we spoke of a policy called " None of the Above". If there ever was a time for it to be implemented than surely this is the moment.

The facts are plain to see: Either vote for crminal A or opt for criminal B. Many have claimed that we should vote for the lesser of two evils. Nice thoughts, however--neither is honest, neither has one shred of dignity, and I doubt either one could spell honor !

So where do we go from here ? We stop the insanity ! Bring our kids and grandchildren home from the armed forces thus leaving the real criminals unarmed. We must stop paying for treason--pay no taxes, and starve them out. This is civil disobedience and if you want half a chance at saving your beloved country than this is your only logical course of action.

Do nothing and you actually deserve the regime you embrace (stolen from the white rose ) !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), November 17, 2000.

Way I see it having Bush or Gore for president isn't even apples or oranges, it's more like green apples or yellow ones. Both bruised. Probably nothing will change. Nice to see you back Joel.

-- Anne Tower (bbill@wtvl.net), November 17, 2000.

Ok, let me tell you about my dream last night (I'm sure it will be met with the same enthusiasm as if I were to pull out vacation slides...ahem!) But it does speak to how my psyche is already working on the reconciliation. No matter who wins. How about yours?

I dreamed that my husband and I were having dinner with the Bush family, incluing Sr. Weird, huh? We were in a lovely setting. Geo. W. looked fairly beat up, hurting, and had bandages that were on his hands. Some blood was seeping from the bandages. Nevertheless, he was in pretty good spirits. I remember thinking to myself: Hey this guy is kind of good looking! And he has a wry sense of humor. I was starting to enjoy myself. Geo. W. was complaining that he was having really serious headaches. At first I was chatting with him about getting help for his headaches, more or less just to be polite. But then I genuinely started to care that he was in pain. We actually connected at some point after that discussion and became friends!

A little later, I went into the ladies room, and was talking to another woman, that I had just met. I said: "You know, these two guys [Bush and Gore} should just get together over a couple of beers and work this all out." Intuitively, I knew it could happen. HOWEVER, the woman I was conversing with said: "What???? NO WAY!!! NEVER!!!" ...End of dream....

Upon waking and reflecting a bit, I thought about how I, who have not been a Bush fan, have come to realize that the guy is a human being who despite some measures of success, got pretty beat up in the election, even if he wins. I realized that *I* could find a way to get along with him. THEN I realized that it's going to be the American people who decide whether they will let any of this healing work out at all. Truly.

Just my silly dream. But I thought I would share it anyway. And please, if you have a smart a** comment about it, please keep it to yourself. Thanks.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 17, 2000.

I agree 100% with Joel on holding the Federal government "hostage" from revenue until change is implemented at our discretion. The ultimate non-violent civil disobedience is non payment of our federal taxes, what is the IRS going to do? Throw us all in jail for non- payment?

Stop the money=stops the power=start listening to what we as constituents really want, your voices can best be heard by controlling the purse strings.

Are you part of the problem, or part of the solution? I am doing my part in this. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 17, 2000.

Whoever ends up with this presidency will still have the power of the executive order. Clinton has ruled by executive order (decree) for several years now. If Congress won't give him what he wants, he just decrees it. Do you really think little Al wasn't paying attention? Of course he was. He will do the same. Gridlock? Just issue an executive decree "for the good of the country (people, children)". G.W. will probably do the same thing.

No, Bush should not step down. He is the legitimate winner of the election in Florida. All the recounting is just a bunch of Democrats that are not willing to accept the reality that they did not win according to the laws of this country. I realize not all Democrats feel this way, but enough do in Florida to be able to continue this attempt to steal the election. (No, I did not vote for Bush.)

-- (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), November 18, 2000.

btw (just cruising some other forums) I would like to remind folks that only 51% of the electorate even bothered to vote in this incredible election. (I wonder what percent would be calculated from folks on this forum? We are somewhat different from the rest of the country, but how much?)

Anyway, regarding "where do we go from here", I might suggest that people get involved in getting out the vote next time. That way, we could really see what the will of the people is....after all, only 25% voted for Bush, and 25% voted for Gore (and to either party, add some small change...)

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), November 18, 2000.

Sheepish, isn't it disgusting that only 51% of the eligible people even voted, I guess it is a small consolation that only half of the people even wanted Bush OR Gore! Now if we could just get the other half of the people to wake up, and do something, maybe something positive could be accomplished. Apathy is awfully hard to fight, perhaps having to pay double for their food, and 1/3 more for everthing else, would wake them out of their complacency, ie., a truck shut down leading to higher freight rates, and the elimination of farm "welfare", leading to a free commodities market. These two things have the possibility of happening, so maybe there IS hope on the horizon. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 18, 2000.

My own hope is that with the way that both parties have turned to the courts and lawyers to solve this election that maybe in the elections to come the third parties may truly have a chance as I think that a lot of those who voted will be more ready for a change. IMHO i hope so or I think that Joels stay at home will be a short one as if we let the lawyers into the election process for real we will really have to fight for a return of our own country. Wonder if the lawyers will want a percentage of the governments receipts like that of a civil case. gail

-- gail missouri ozarks (gef123@hotmail.com), November 18, 2000.

Everything happens for a reason! Whoever does win -it appears to be Bush, at least right now - we should all back. Even if he isn't who you voted for -no I did not - I plan on accepting. We are the United States of America, so shouldn't we all be united? Remember, that at least we live in a country that we have the right to vote. However this works out, we will be able to re-elect or get someone new in 4 years. If you don't like it here, take the next boat to Cuba. Fidel has been there forever - at least it seems like it - and you won't have to worry about voting!

-- Michael W. Smith (kirklbb@penn.com), November 18, 2000.

The time has come when we must discuss the theories of mice and men or in this case it might be more appropiate to call it lambs and rams. Any lamb can be herded into cooperation, pummelled into submition, passified wth an abundance of grain and water till they are so broken or fat that resistence is no longer an option. Try any of these methods with the ram and when you turn your back--he will make you pay a heavy price by sending you sprawling in the mud.

Now, I admire many of your opinions, however compliance with tyranny is not an option ! Sheepish says vote while Micheal says move to Cuba. I continue to endorse the message of the founding fathers which is be a RAM. Arm yourselves and be ever ready to take back your government by force.

The vote tally shows that we are not the United States. Indeed we are a nation divided. 49% don't care or whose religious beliefs don't affirm government as a an option as they only serve God not man. Than we have 26% that worship money and 25% that want someone to serve their every whim. IMHO, the real americans are in that 49%. In this percentage lies the armed but silent majority.

I want to assure Micheal that in any country I would not submit to any form of tyranny. I might well be killed, and probably would be. However that is the mark of a man that when he was confronted with tyranny, he loaded his weapon and helped as many of tyrants thru the gates of hell as his breath allowed. Jim Bowie although wrought with fever and suffering a broken leg was able to leave ten Mexicans dead at the foot of his bunk. You see, he didn't vote, he didn't move, he didn't surrender, he simply followed the only option a true man has. Liberty or death, and with two single shot horse pistols and two knives that bore his name he scrolled his name in history in his own blood. History will soon forget the Bush's, the Gore's and the Clinton's but it will never forget the men who wrote freedom by spilling blood all over hell and half of Texas to prove you really don't need to vote or move !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), November 19, 2000.

Joel, I admire your beliefs, but cannot condone your method of obtaining them, I believe in non-violent civil disobedience only, perhaps there will come a time that force in the deadliest extreme is necessary, and while we are prepared for that time also, I feel at this point great things can be done and accomplished non-violently, as has happened in South Africa, East Germany, Russia, and many other countries. We do not need or desire another Civil War, too many options exist for change made non-violently. Respectfully, Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 19, 2000.

Welcome back Joel. Glad you can fight another round. :) .

But please consider this option. If the 49% of real americans, as you call them, got together and voted as a block, they could throw out the Democrats, Republicans, Greens, Libertarians, Reformers and REALLY get something done! All the bullets in the world don't have that kind of power. Are the 49% part of the problem or part of the solution? .

With all due respect to Jim Bowie. He shot and killed armed men who attacked him with bullets and bayonets. Would he have opened fire on people waving voting ballots at him? I think not. And besides, Joel, what's your target? The FEDS? They didn't screw this one up. Not only that, but everytime *W* ran to FEDERAL court, they told him to butt out. It's a state problem. Want a Civil War? GOOD! Let everyone jump in their cars, armed to the teeth and attack Palm Beach County! .

I would be right behind you in attacking tyranny. But this isn't what we've got here. It's stupidity! If I had to shoot every stupid person, I'd have to save the last bullet for myself :) Let's fix what's broken with the right tools. And one of the hardest tools to handle is compromise. The middle ground. That gray area that drives everyone crazy. But it's also called the common ground. That's where deals are struck and work gets done. Like baseball. You win some. You lose some. others get rained out.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), November 19, 2000.

Why throw out the Libertarians, Craig, we are the good guys? :-) Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 19, 2000.

You have to forgive Craig because Michican is having a losing season and homemade wine is having a winning one ! (just kidding) ! Nice post , Craig, perhaps I'll understand after I dig myself out of this gallon of wine !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), November 19, 2000.

Gosh, I forgot it was football season, duh!!! :-) Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 19, 2000.

Welcome back Joel. I have a question though. My question is whos blood do we spill? If indeed the time comes to spill blood, then who do we go after. This is the question I ask myself. Do we kill anyone who doesn't agree with us? I mean this is not near a simple as the civil war was. There you had a group of states who excercized their rights to pick up their cards from the table and head on home. The then current president weighed his options and realized he couldn't get along without all those southern products for his factories in the North and decided to push the issue with an army. Things today are not near a simple. When we try to point the finger, we end up with it jammed up our own nose. Each and every person has had a hand in what this country has become. If indeed we overthrow the government then what do we replace it with. I think the recent vote says nothing if not that we don't have any idea what to do. Did you look at the map of the vote? I saw one where the whole united states was shown by county. That map makes it pretty unclear about just how America feels. I guess what I'm saying is that without a clear enemy, it's pretty hard to have a battle. Maybe the enemy is in our own hearts.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 19, 2000.

We're all getting caught up in the sideshow -- no matter which of them wins, it is still the corporations that are running the circus. It seems to be an awfully loud and flashy sideshow this time around, too -- must be something is scaring the powers that be more than usual. What could it be?...

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), November 19, 2000.

Thank You, LBF. My wife has suffered a death in her family and I'm home to bury our dead. I plan to return shortly.(very shortly, Janet) I've missed you guys also.

Whose blood do we spill ? That is a moment by moment decision that can only be decided by fate. I'll use a true story to try to show when I believe it should be done.

The story of Claude Dallas--Claude Dallas lived as a mountain man in the woods of northern Idaho. He took 3 deer to jerk meat for his winter stores. Game wardens approached him and decided to arrest him for hunting without a permit. Claude agreed to go with them but they tried to make him leave all his supplies and guns on the mountain. Claude than resisted and a fight broke out. Using equal and opposite force, Claude killed them both. Imho, he did the right thing. He made one mistake in that he hid the bodies. I would have drug their bodies off the mountain and presented them to authorities. An Idaho jury agreed with me and gave him 8 years for hiding the bodies. You see--Claude did not bring the violence to society they brought it to him. They received what they offered !

So-let us use that as a guideline. When confronted with armed, violent seeking people than we shall shed their blood with honor, no matter what uniform they wear. Their are many non-violent ways to be violent and our government is a master at it. Have you ever seen an HRT team ? These men are not peace keepers ! To steal a mans farm for non-payment of taxes is violent. Shed their blood ! If they attack a family because they won't turn snitch for the government than shed their blood ! If they attempt to burn women and children in a building than shed their blood. We simply must stop them, by any means necessary. We all know right from wrong. There is no gray area. If we break natural law than indeed we should be prosecuted and I'll be the first to surrender myself to the sheriff. If someone has not than I'll be the first to render them aid.

I am a member of the Posse Comitatus which does not even recognize the Federal government. Basically it does not exist to us. It is there but has no authority over us. So my viewpoint is much different than other peoples. I hope you can see the difference in my belief of when to defend and when to submit. I assure you that there is justice and order in it, but on paper it is very hard to explain it.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), November 20, 2000.

Very little in this world is ever just black or white, good or evil, if things were that simple we would need never to be tried by a judge and jury to decide whether we are innocent or guilty. Someone would just open the "official rule book" and decide our fate.

Much in this life is various shades of gray, one person's definition of what is right, is totally different to another's viewpoint of what is right. Everything is subjective and relative to the conditions that exist at that time.

Who defines "natural law"? Is it cultural, or universal? Is it something that the majority of people have agreed to in this country? If it is not valid and appropriate under our Constitution, how can it be acceptable to us, and understood? Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 20, 2000.

I guess we all need the extremists to help us find how we fit in the world. I personally find Joel's post apalling; shedding of blood in any of the described situations can never solve the problem. There will always be more of 'them'; you cannot kill them all, even if that was an enlightened option. I would not want to live in your idea of a perfect world, Joel; and indeed I do not live in the world as you see it at all. You seem to see ugliness and hatred and evil and repression everywhere; I see none of this. The world is filled with incredible people living extraordinarily beautiful and full lives. Humans' power to create beauty has no bounds. For me to cut myself off from seeing the architecture of the great cathedrals of Europe, the paintings at the Louvre,the music of peoples all over the world,be they simple and local or that of great symphonies, or any other link with my fellow humans of different cultures, would be a sad thing indeed. No, I dont believe bloodshed is ever a positive force; it only creates more of the same. I believe this sort of black and white thinking comes from an extreme fear in ones' heart; terror of life itself, and most of all , terror of oneself. Your enemies are not outside of you, they are within. If the world you have created for yourself is filled with conspiracies, hatred against anything 'government', expectations of blood in the streets, I submit that this is exactly what you will experience in your life. I choose to focus on the positives, while doing my bit to change things I disagree with by finding and promoting other options, rather than trying to destroy what and who is already here. Working for, rather than against. I agree with Michael about backing whoever wins the office of president. Demonizing those who think differently than you is the job of a true coward. The display of childish and plain old bad sportmanship displayed by many Republicans during the entire Clinton administration has been a complete turn-off to a huge number of the populace. Try building up,instead of tearing down. It comes from love, rather than hate, and has much more power. (earthmama steps down off the soapbox)

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), November 21, 2000.

Thankyou Annie and earthmomma.

Joels visions of the future scare me also. Just as I disgree with much that the government has done, I probably also disagree with what Joel's reading of "natural law" would be. We should all strive in every way to make society better, but we need to be careful about how we define better. Witness what is happening in the Middle East today and tell me which side is right, then tell me we should choose one narrowly defined view of the way things should be.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 21, 2000.

Very well said, Earthmomma,and Ray S., if anyone has a simple right or wrong answer that would solve the problem in the Middle East, I would be the first one to nominate him/her for this year's Nobel Peace Prize, as him/her would be an utter genius. Annie in SE OH.

-- Annie Miller (annie@1st.net), November 21, 2000.

I've heard that "Oh , it's a beautiful world , filled with christian people doing God's work" garb all my life from my mother. Well. it's not ! Many of the so called christians after sunday service are out screwing their neighbor out of anything they can and calling it free enterprise ! The fact you can find a little beauty in a world of ugliness is due the fact that you possess a good set of blinders. Basically, everyone is a criminal. Some hide it well, others are just bad at it. It has always amazed me that those who cry loudest for peace are the worst of the worst.

Solution for the mideast--Last man standing takes all. Forget the rhetoric-bring on the war.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), November 22, 2000.

Solution to the mideast - Jesus Christ.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 22, 2000.

Amazingly enough, I agree with Joel's solution far more than Wendy's. Wendy, what makes you so sure that your view of Jesus is the correct on and will be accepted by two groups of people who see him as a religous figure, but not a saviour?

Joel, I would take your solution one step further. Put up barrier around the entire area, allow those who wish a chance to leave, shut the gate and may the best (Most righteous?) side win. I would allow no outside interference once the hostilities began and wouldn't open the gates until all hostilities had ceased.

As for where this country goes. It will go wherever we take it as a very diverse group. It probably won't be exactly where any single one of us wants it to be, but it will be near where all of us eventually push and shove it according to our individual and group wishes.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 22, 2000.

ray s. I've read the book. God Bless! Wendy

p.s. - I know, so have others.... time WILL tell. Again, I'll take my chances, you take yours.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 22, 2000.

Wendy- I've read many books, some more valid than others. I'm pretty happy with my chances.

-- ray s. (mmoetc@yahoo.com), November 22, 2000.

ray s. Godspeed and God Bless! Wendy

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), November 24, 2000.