Got this in one of those pack-o-card ad mass mailings the other day.

"Find out where the bodies are buried."

"Ever wonder how...and why...America morphed from the land of the free to the land of the regulated?"

"John Taylor Gatto's hot new book, 'The Underground History of American Education', has the answers!"

"Gatto, a former New York State Teacher of the Year, has tracked down the real story. Packed with gripping tales from his years as a wildly successful classroom teacher, and introducing virtually every important name in American social and educational history, this is the most important - and fascinating - education book of the decade."

"A sample of Gatto's fresh, passionate style:

"The shocking possibility that dumb people don't exist in sufficient numbers to warrant the careers devoted to tending to them will see incredible to you. Yet that is my proposition: Mass dumbness first had to be imagined. It wasn't real.

"Once the dumb are wished into existence, they serve valuable functions: as a danger to themselves and others that have to be watched, classified, disciplined, trained, medicated, sterilized, ghettoized, cajoled, coerced, jailed...Hundreds of millions of perpetual children require paid attention from millions of adult custodians.

"Consider the art of driving, which I learned at eleven. Without everybody behind the wheel, our sort of economy would be impossible, so everybody is there, IQ not withstanding. With less than 30 hours of combined training and experience, a hundred million people are allowed access to vehicular weapons more lethal than pistols or rifles. Turned loose without a teacher, so to speak. Why are those shocking acts of trust committed by our government (in comparison to the tight grip imposed on state near-monopoly schooling)?

"It should strike you at once that our unstated official assumptions about human nature are dead wrong. Average people are competent and responsible; universal motoring proves that."

It goes on to list the sale info:

$30 + $3 s/h

Home Life

PO Box 1190

Fenton MO 63026

1-800-346-6322

www.home-school.com MO residents as 5.975% sales tax

Sounds like an interesting read to me, and possibly a whole new insight into the frailty of the grip the gvt. has on "we the people", rather like the frailty of the economy, based as it is on the hope that we all believe in our currency long enough to spend it. Joel, know anything about this guy?

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), November 25, 2000

Answers

When I decided to leave teaching in the public schools and begin homeschooling my children, it was because I had seen too many abuses etc in the school systems. And not just in one state either! I did alot of research and this guy is good. He has been there and draws conclusions that honest, thinking, public school teachers will tell you are accurate. There are alot of school teachers who just go with the flow because they are too lazy to think and/or are worried about job security. There are however, alot of us out there who have decided to remove our children from the places where we teach and instead, teach them at home. My 15 year old really wanted to try high school this year. After 2/12 months, he asked to come back home. He had learned nothing. They, on the other hand, had tried their best to convince him that they had all the right answers and to mold him into a good little citizen. These institutions really are in trouble. More and more parents are questions the school's abilitiy to teach and what the agendas really consist of. They are like bureaucracies, they exist to keep themselves alive and growing. I once gave my daughter a 'working' defination of a bureaucrat: a parasite on the public. She, of course, repeated this at school, in class, and was severely shot down by, who else, her teacher. I still firmly belive this though. Among the other institutions that my generation was taught to rever and never question, we must add the public schools.

-- Cheryl (bramblecottage@hotmail.com), November 25, 2000.

What amazes me is that even the public school kids know how bad their education is. Every student I've met has begged their parents to homeschool when they found out it was an option. It is the lazy parents who are resistant to homeschooling, not the kids, they want to LEARN!

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), November 25, 2000.

well...hmmm...I rather resent being generalized as "lazy" for not homeschooling my older four children....we have hs'ed "transitionally" during moves; our children are very gifted in music and art and enjoy instruction that I cannot give; plus the edge of competition (which encourages excellence.) Yes; the system is flawwed, but some us us live in communities where the total enrollment in the school is 180 and K-12 are in one building. I choose to hs the babies in that I am looking forward to having a more transient lifestyle as I get older. A couple of thoughts on hs'ing.... I think it is a wonderful option, thank God the state hasn't "assumed total authority" over parents. Yet. Hmmph. But as an Christian who has been burnt and left by the wayside in the name of excessive fundamentalism; I think its treading on dangerous ground to say that some particular thing that one may perhaps be doing is the ONLY gosh-be-darned God pleasing thing to do.

P.S. Soni,isn't this the guy that is famous for the concept of "unschooling"?

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 25, 2000.

I also would like to see public schooling become a thing of the past. This is a national guinea pig experiment that has failed big time. All you have to do is try to talk to a group of public schooled students to understand this. Most don't know how to have an adult conversation to save their lives. Contrast this to diaries written by teens a hundred or more years ago. These kids were marrying and have children of their own and were much more mature than teens today. Not to mention moral. Colleges and employers are beginning to realize this and are recruiting homeschooled children. This is because they don't want to have to babysit them night and day while they outgrow their "wild phase". I don't know what possessed Americans to believe that by making our childrens peers the center o their ie that this would lead to adult. Children cannot raise each other n it i about time people realized it. Teachers as far as kids are concerned are the enemy, and they aren't raising anyone either. Nothing, and I repeat nothing can replace a full time parent in a child's life. Now each of us has to make our own decision about this as it stands right now. I choose to teach my child and bring in select adults for things I cannot teach, but they are adults that I choose to expose my child to, who have values that I think match my own. These are people my kids can look up to, and not those the government would like to program them with. I understand where you are coming from Beth, but you are by far not in the norm. Most people are just to busy to pay attention. You can see this by babies dropped of at day care 12 hours a day at 3 months old. There i not person alive I would leave my three month old with that long. Not because they are bad people, but because God entrusted me with the care of my child, and I take tht seriously.

Little Bit Farm

-- Little bit Farm (littlebit@calinet.com), November 25, 2000.

SPORTS SPORTS thats all any school system thinks about to ell with reading, writing and rithmetic. bob in s.e.ks.

-- Bobco (bobco@hit.net), November 25, 2000.

Ok, Bob, who taught you to spell? ;)

Seriously, I appreciate books that challenge my beliefs. Anyone read this one?

-- Anne (HT@HM.com), November 25, 2000.

Someone up there asked if John T. Gatto was the one who started the unschooling thing. Right 1st name, wrong lastname. John Holt is his name.

John Gatto is a very powerful writer and speaker, really knows his stuff when it comes to the education debacle. He was New York state Teacher of the Year some time back, and the transcripts of his speech that night would make your hair stand on end. The man pulls NO punches. And he really makes you think.

If any of you can get to the local public library and find any of his writings via interlibrary loan, get it. I can promise you, you will not close that book , any of his books, without being affected or touched in some way.

-- Judi (ddecaro@snet.net), November 25, 2000.

Beth, I',m sorry that I offended you. I did not intend to make a sweeping general comment about parents of public school children. There are many parents who do not know that homeschooling is an option for them. Some communities still make it intolerable to homeschool. I know parents who adore the homeschool concept, but are unable to do so because they only have a 6th grade education and cannot read or write themselves and know public school is the better option for them. Some children would be way too resistant to the homeschool concept. I would not call any of these parents lazy. I was referring to the parents whose children have begged to be homeschooled but the parents said "NO" because they don't want to be "stuck" with their own "kids all day." I cannot imagine saying NO to a child who desires to learn in a mature and safe environment.

Community or school size has absolutely no bearing on the quality of education or the safety of the students. I have always lived in small communities with small schools. My children went to the best school in the state, as good as the state laws would allow it to be. The last school district we lived in was also very small, 150 students. It was the worst school in the state. They didn't have cheerleaders because they got beat up, third and fourth grade boys chased the first and second grade girls to french kiss them, and it was allowed. The educational level was geared to the lowest common denominator in the classroom. Last year, out of a kindergarten of 16 students, 10 were pulled out to homeschool.

Beth, my comment about lazy parents is in reference to the students of this last school I mentioned who begged their parents to homeschool them and were told no. When my children asked to be homeschooled, that became a priority im my life.

When we were kids, we only spent maybe six hours a day at school. There was plenty of time for learning at home and persuing our interests. Kids are in school nine hours now, plus the before school care and after school care programs. There is no time for the children to absorb family values and knowledge, or pursue interests apart from school programs. They are learning their social behavior from undisciplined masses of children. Socialization? Well, it would be like us having to spend 9 hours a day in county jail. It's the same people in both institutions.

Did you know, even if you homeschool, you can still take advantage of music, art, sports or any program you want at the public school? The school superintendents usually won't tell you this, but in most states, it's the law. They may not discriminate against you for homeschooling.

My public school experiences have been out here on the west coast. I was very impressed by the manners of the schoolkids in Kansas, and the number of private schools available to families there. I believe this reflects the more conservative Christian culture of the midwest where manners and discipline are the rule rather than the exception. It is the opposite out here.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), November 27, 2000.

*G*, I wonder where I went wrong... .

My wife and I are both products of excellent public schools. We've done our best to provide the same experience for our daughter. When we moved to rural northeastern Ohio, our daughter was enrolled in 6th grade in a school with 220 students in 6-12 grades. After her sophomore year, she complained that she wasn't being challenged enough. In Ohio, they have an "adjacency" rule. You can attend school in an adjacent school district with no increase in cost provided they have room. So she went to the high school "next door". This school has a whopping :) 415 students in 9-12 grade. Her experience has been extemely positive. Football games are well attended (naturally), but by golly so are band concerts, musicals, plays and PTO! Something about parents supporting their kids. And the teachers. And the administrators. Must be something in the water. .

There are also several programs sponsored by the school for home schoolers in subjects like chemistry, physics, "trig" and calculus. There are guest lecturers and teachers that students are encouraged to interact with. .

What really impresses me about this particular public school system is that it is a community effort. No big hoo-hah, just parents working together with their sleeves rolled up to give their kids the best opportunities possible. .

Public schools are not the be-all-to-end-all. But then neither is home-schooling. Or private schools. However, they all share one thing in common. They are only as good as the parents commitment. I personally believe in the public system, or I wouldn't fight for it. If home schooling is your bag, FINE! More power to you. Just don't come around trashing my school district or I'll show you the nearest tax-paid-and-maintained-in-sweat "public" exit.

(:raig

-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), November 27, 2000.

We've only been homeschooling 3 weeks, my son begged me to take him out, the librian told me we could use the public school library anytime, I was shocked and the principal, counselor, and secretary all standing there we're a little putt out with her telling us this, I was proud of her for telling us the truth! I didn't know we could take advantage of band and sports? Is it in every state, we live in Texas, how do you find out just call your superintendent, I doubt he will tell the truth, so who would I need to call in my state to find out the laws.?

-- Carol in Tx (cwaldrop@peoplescom.net), November 27, 2000.

To Carol in TX:

Look up the Home School Legal Defense Assoc. on the web. They have a site that can give you the laws in each state and may be specific enough to tell you about school policies concerning homeschoolers participating.

Another way to find out would be to contact homeschool groups in your area to see what they know. Some private schools allow participation but will charge for the privilege.

Soni: I don't know anything about John Gatto.

Homeschooling for 13 years (if you count from birth),

-- Heather (heathergorden@hotmail.com), November 27, 2000.

Craig, you are right about the most important factor in a child's education being the committment of the parents. However, the state- run schools must use state-approved curriculum materials, which are often academically substandard (you would need to get hold of some of the really good other materials out there to do a comparison to know what you've got at your school), and frequently factually incorrect because they must be politically correct first and foremost. I know for a fact that children can be getting straight A's in a public school, and come into a little private school that doesn't even emphasize academics and find themselves struggling to get C's for a while until they have picked up the foundation knowledge that they weren't taught at the public schools. I don't want to bash your schools, but you may only think they are good because you don't have anything better around to compare them with. See if you can find some public school texts from seventy-five or a hundred years ago, and compare grade for grade to see just how much lower the standards are now. And there is the whole other factor of leaving God out. I don't know if you care about that or not, but I do, and the fact is that even if a public school teacher is a Christian who loves the Lord, they cannot so much as mention God in the classroom without risking a lawsuit and/or the loss of their job. Woe to one who would dare to read from the Bible. And then people wonder why this country is going down the tubes.

-- Kathleen Sanderson (stonycft@worldpath.net), November 27, 2000.

Kathleen, you are so right about the textbooks being dumbed down compared to what our Parents were taught. My grandmother and aunt were teachers in one room schoolhouse in Nebraska and I have the collection of textbooks from the 20's and 30's.

Since some of the kids were not going to continue school past their muscle value on the farm, they were taught the foundations quickly. I have a third grade arithmatic book that is better than high school basic math or consumer math. It covers everything and I am learning from it, too. I have a 1955 4th grade Language text that is better than anything available for any grade, including my friend's college text.Even some of the "Christian" curriculum is dumbed down and was downright insulting to the intelligence of one of my kids.

We ended up chucking all the new books and new methods and went back to the old, tried and true education that doesn't interfere with learning.

My problem with public schools is the intimidation they used for years on parents about kids "HAVE TO BE IN SCHOOL OR ELSE" I hated school since fourth grade and learned more on family trips and the books that were provided to me at home than I ever did at school. I hated those psych games that were plyed in the classroom, even after the Hatch Amendment was passed to outlaw them.

I don't care if people want to send their kids to public school, but I do resent that government schools want to dictate how my children are educated and what information they "HAVE TO HAVE" in order for my children to learn at home.

-- Laura (gsend@hotmail.com), November 28, 2000.

"Teacher of the Year" Warns: Public Schools Destroy Democracy.

Source: Massachusetts News
Published: Oct, 2000 Author: Paul Moreno

"Teacher of the Year" Warns: Public Schools Destroy Democracy.

Parents who remove their children from public schools are not trying to just get a better education for them.

They are rebelling against a tyrannical and oppressive central power that began in Massachusetts.

That's how a New York City and New York State "Teacher of the Year," John Taylor Gatto, says in explaining how Massachusetts, the cradle of the American Revolution, led the way in the "Second American Revolution," that undermined democracy via compulsory schooling.

America had achieved near-universal literacy by 1850 without any compulsory schooling. But in the second half of the nineteenth century, the American elite turned to European models - to Prussia especially - to create a docile and homogenized population, he claims.

Gatto tells the story in The Underground History of American Education: A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation into the Problem of Modern Schooling. Gatto quit his job while he was New York's Teacher of the Year in 1991 and since then has been leading a crusade to break up the government monopoly in schools.

He explains how this happened in what he calls "not a history proper, but a collection of materials toward a history." It is an enormous work, nearly four hundred textbook-size pages that must amount to a quarter of a million words.

Seeking Social Control

He quotes theologian Dietrich Bonhoffer, who died in a concentration camp for resisting the Nazis, that "the Second World War was the inevitable product of good schooling." American schools are not meant to "educate" at all, Gatto says. He believes they were created as institutions of social control.

It would be dangerous to the American elite to have too many people who can think for themselves.

The American school system was promoted by the titans of capitalism: John D. Rockefeller, Andrew Carnegie, Henry Ford and J. P. Morgan. These monopolists did not want competition among schools any more than they wanted it in the oil, steel, automobile and banking industries.

They wanted to re-create the class system of England in America and they rejected the idea that ordinary people could govern themselves. What they wanted was a docile work force and a population that would only be interested in consuming industrial "goods."

"If we educated better, we could not sustain the corporate utopia we have made," Gatto argues. "Schools build national wealth by tearing down personal sovereignty, morality and family life. It's a trade- off." "Schools got the way they were at the start of the twentieth century as part of a vast, intensely engineered social revolution in which all major institutions were overhauled to work together in harmonious managerial efficiency," Gatto says. "The net effect was the destruction of small-town, small-government America, strong families, individual liberty, and a lot of other things people weren't aware they were trading for a regular corporate paycheck."

This was not a conspiracy, Gatto sys. "The real conspirators were ourselves when we sold our liberty for the promise of security."

Parents Lose Control

"Ordinary people send their children to school to get smart," Gatto says, "but what modern schooling teaches is dumbness."

Massachusetts was the first state to adopt a "compulsory schooling" law, in 1852. This provoked intense opposition from the start. Many towns, like Barnstable, complained that "the great defect of our day is the absence of governing or controlling power on the part of parents and the consequent insubordination of children. Our schools are rendered inefficient by the apathy of parents."

But, under the leadership of Horace Mann, the state continued to enlarge its school system. The state replaced male with female teachers, paying women more than men to shame the men out of the profession, says Gatto.

In part, the Massachusetts effort was a nativist attempt to obstruct recent Irish Catholic immigrants from being able to support their parochial schools. Over time, public schools adopted a secular faith of their own and became hostile to any religious influence.

Over the years, ordinary American parents lost control of their schools. While there were 41,000 elected school boards in 1960, there are only 15,000 today (with a population that is over fifty percent greater).

Progressive Failures

Along with centralized control came varieties of "progressive" pedagogical policies that have dumbed down the population, he says. The world's first "look-say" (or "whole language") primer came from a Prussian schoolmaster named Friedrich Gedike in 1791. Horace Mann praised the Prussian school system and its whole-language policy in particular, in his 1844 report as school commissioner.

Mann also led the effort by the state's Board of Education to establish a "normal school" that would train public school teachers. This took place despite the fact that a legislative committee warned that the Board (which was dominated by Unitarians) "really wanted to install a Prussian system of education in Massachusetts, to put 'a monopoly of power in a few hands, contrary in every respect to the true spirit of our democratical institutions.'"

These "normal schools" have become the "teacher colleges" that have produced the woefully unprepared teachers of today.

In the 1960s, it became impossible to impose any discipline on students as the civil rights movement made its way into the schools. Gatto saw this happen very suddenly in 1965. It amounted to "a mysterious new deal" that "turned the entire edifice of public schooling upside-down in 100 days." It was "the starting gun for a time of unbridled madness."

Schools inflict untold psychic harm on our children, as well as physical harm (there are about thirty-three murders each year in public schools).

The enormous bureaucracies of the education establishment have become "pathological," Gatto says, and are incapable of reform. ... "All alleged reforms have left schooling exactly in the shape they found it, except bigger, richer, politically stronger. ... The only reliable defense against this is to keep institutions weak and dispersed, even if that means sacrificing efficiency and holding them on a very short leash."

'Free Market' Is Needed

"What is needed is the kind of wildly-swinging free market that we had at the beginning of our national history," Gatto says.

This is an idea that appeals to both conservatives and liberals. Gatto points approvingly to the Sudbury Valley School in Massachusetts, one of the experimental "free schools" that cropped up in the 1960s. Sudbury Valley never gives tests or homework assignments, but turns out students with impressive academic achievements. The school has seen its enrollments rise as parents flee the public schools, which are now obsessed with standardized exams required under the state's 1993 reform law.

He points to Sweden (usually the beau ideal of liberals), which has a nine-year school track. "Who was it that decided to force your attention onto Japan instead of Sweden? Japan with its long school year and state compulsion, instead of Sweden with its short school year, short school sequence, and free choice of where your kid is schooled? Who decided you should know about Japan and not Hong Kong, an Asian neighbor with a short school year that outperforms Japan across the board in math and science?"

Minorities, too, are beginning to reject the public school monopoly. The Boston Globe recently featured the decision of the Shaw family to educate their three sons at home, reporting that "more African- Americans and other minorities are deciding that when it comes to school, there's no place like home."

The Shaws say that public schools fail to educate African-American children, and point to a report by the Home School Legal Defense Association that shows less of a disparity in achievement tests between whites and blacks who are home-schooled.

And home-schooled students outperformed public-school and private- school students on the American College Test (ACT), with a 22.8 average against a 21 average for all who took the test.

All these alternatives would serve Gatto's purpose. "The school machine must be shattered into a hundred thousand parts before the pledges made in the founding documents of this country have a chance to be honored again."

The most hopeful sign that Gatto sees is in the rise of a computerized economy. "A century ago, mass production stifled the individualism which was the real American Dream. Now computers seem to be shifting the balance of power back from collective entities like corporations back to people."

Compulsory schooling was designed to serve a mass production economy, so a new kind of system will rise to suit the competitive enterprise economy seen in Silicon Valley. "It can only be a matter of time before America rides on the back of the computer age into a new form of educational schooling once called for by Adam Smith."

Liberals are Also Upset

The hue and cry against the public school system does not just come from conservatives, though those who expose the system's failings are often labeled as such.

Another recent book on the American school system has been published by Diane Ravitch. In Left Back: A Century of Failed School Reforms, she describes the recurring waves of "progressive" nostrums and why they succeed only in making a dysfunctional system more entrenched.

A reviewer for the New York Times notes that Ravitch, usually labeled a conservative, "strikes me as a very old-fashioned liberal, of a pre- 1968 Arthur Schlesinger bent.

"She has described herself as both a Democrat and an Independent.... She has come out for higher teacher salaries, instead of merit pay, which must have annoyed some of her colleagues on the right, and earlier this year she publicly quit as a consultant to George W. Bush's presidential campaign when he refused to meet with the Log Cabin Republicans."

-- William in Wi (thetoebes@webtv.net), November 28, 2000.

What a powerful article! It just reenforces what I have thought all along. This is why I homeschool! If it's rebellion, then so be it!!!!

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), November 28, 2000.

We homeschooled but our last graduated 18 months ago. I am a reporter and I cover the boards of educations in three counties. That would be enough to make most anybody want to homeschool! Some of the stuff that goes on is awful! They say that committed parents are the key to education and then all parental rights are basically taken away!

Isn't it in Oakland where they've decided the big consolidated public schools aren't working and so are reverting to the old idea of small community schools? Actually run by the parents in the communities!

-- Suzy in Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.

I started my son in kindergarten this year. I've been listening to your homeschool posts for a while, so I was leery to say the least. I figured I could always pull him out if it didn't work. His teacher is great!I volunteer, so I know what is going on and the interaction he is getting from the other kids is good. There is mixed nationalities in his class, so he learns a little about their cultures and he is picking up some Spanish, too.His teacher has been teaching at least 12 years (my daughters friend had her in kindergarten and she just entered Stanford, studying to be a doctor),so she is realy good with the kids.I think it really helps that they have made the k - 3 grades smaller. But I have to agree that as they get older, public schools get worse. In Jr High and High School, they have far to many kids to keep track of and the kids suffer for that. No choice is right for every body and no one way is the right way. I think the key is to be involved, no matter what your choice.

-- kathy h (ckhart@earthlink.net), November 28, 2000.

Carol!!!!Don't be so sure that the superintendent is hostile to homeschooling.you'll never know unless you ask!!!And you may be in for a pleasant suprise!!! Thanks Laura...oh yeah, no hard feelings.I thought you were generalizing....and such makes me cringe. Our school is far from perfect (for we don't live in a perfect world,) but when something rubs me the wrong way; or if I am concerned about something; I'm real good about taking a visit with the principal, teacher,etc.

-- Beth Weber (talmidim88@hotmail.com), November 28, 2000.

I gotta read this book I'm thinking, as homeschooling is the way we're leaning, especially after last week! Our oldest son (who's in 2nd grade) was determined to be handicapped by the a panel made up of his teacher, the school shrink, the school vice principal, and a special ed teacher. And do you know why he's handicapped? Because he's SMART! I kid you not! Because he's not "dumb" like other kids, and we spend time with him outside of the school teaching him, he's too smart for the system.

-- Eric in TN (eric_m_stone@yahoo.com), November 28, 2000.

Eric,

Its all part of the "victimization" of America. In order for us to buy into the forced social engineering of the self styled elite we must all believe that each of us is handicapped in some way. Without a person believing that they have something wrong with themselves they would be able to identify the miasma of demagoguery for what it is. Imagine then if, horror of horrors, a bright kid like your son started to figure out who the man behind the curtain is and why hes there. Bright kids arent "normal" because for some reason the dumbing down of the school system hasnt stuck, they make them feel self concious for being "different" which tends to cause them as they age to support people/causes presenting themselves as the underdog thereby assisting to empower those seeking control. This nonsense has gotten so ridiculous that just about everyone can be classified as being disabled. I recently discovered that the courts have ruled that Im disabled. Coulda fooled me. Turns out that sleep apnea is considered a disability in WI. Yup, thats right, snoring real loud and having trouble breathing at night is now a "disability". I asked around and apparently all the men in my family have it and have for as many generations as anyone can remember, just none of us knew we were "disabled". Guess Id better run right out get on the public dole, I which candidate is going to guarantee me a larger check my rights.

-- William in Wi (thetoebes@webtv.net), November 29, 2000.

Eric, I believe your experience is all too common. I frequently care for a couple of kids (2 and 4 yrs. old) when their mom takes evening classes. Both are bright kids. They are homeschooled, and the 2 yr. old boy even knows sign language already. On a number of occasions when I'm not available, they go to a big daycare center. Recently they were "tested" at this daycare. The kids mom was told the little boy is hyperactive and has ADD, and that the 4 yr. old girl is borderline. The girl is very sharp and can be annoying but she is NOT a problem of any sort. The 2 year old boy is EXTREMELY passive, mellow, easy going, etc. etc. and very quiet. Both children are well mannered, have good attention spans, and have no problem following directions. ADD, my you-know-what!! NO ONE who knows these children could ever consider either to be ADD, ADHD or anything else. The mother laughed when she was told this, and was then informed if she didn't comply with school recommendations when they started public school (as in, put them on Ritalin) that she could be charged with NEGLECT and the kids taken away from her! BTW, this is an intact, 2 parent family, goes to church, dad is in law enforcement, etc. I have a 2 year old granddaughter who is even sharper than these 2 kids, and twice as busy. Not hyperactive, just active, and extremely intelligent. It scares the daylights out of me what label they will put on HER! I wonder where this is going to stop, or if it ever will, unless we take the power (money) away from the public schools.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), November 29, 2000.

William and Lennette, I have to agree with you I'm afraid. And the 2 year old is going to be "too smart" for the system too if his current achievments are an indication. While his language skills are just coming up to speed, his mechanical skills exceed those of his older brother.

-- Eric in TN (eric_m_stone@yahoo.com), November 29, 2000.

I've been reading and enjoying your responses.After reading all this I'm starting to think the experiences we've had at our local school system are unfortunately the "norm". My step-son is now 19. We had a terrible time trying to keep him in high school.The teachers would say they didn't understand what his problem was because he seemed very intelligent but uninterested.When we went to his conferance I was shocked when a teacher told me that she had told him that she thought he should drop out of school and take his GED.I was in shock as we walked to the next table for the next conferance. This teacher told us how intelligent he seemed to be though he was very lazy in class and didn't want to talk in class.Then she said that she had told him he should consider quitting school when he turned 18 that summer and take his GED as it would be less time consuming and she was sure he could do well on it. I went and found the principle and asked him just what was going on here,quitting school was not an option. He said that while it may not be an option for us it was one for our son,maybe not the best one but an option none the less. As we walked out of there that night I told my husband I think we just lost the war.He turned 18 that summer and promptly dropped out. He is now 19 and would love nothing more then to go back to school. He has talked to them twice begging them to let him come back and graduate as he realizes he made a mistake and that a GED and diploma are not the same thing. They told him NO. I began calling local school systems in neighboring towns with open enrollment to see if anyone would take him and they said no also.The last system I called however did offer some hope.The woman said in a rather low voice that she wasn't suppossed to tell me this but there was a home study option that none of the school systems here in Ohio want us to know about.You see if you take this option the $3,200.00+ per student that the system gets for your child would be sent elsewhere and they don't want to lose the money.This woman was so afraid to tell me about it that she whispered a phone number and told me to call them. I called and the man asked if I had a computer and gave me the address. When I went to the site I understood why the Public schools don't want us to know about it. It is a online charter school that offers K-12,diplomas, feild trips and support and from what I can tell you only pay for lab and material fees. In the deal you must have a specialy equipped computer that is provided to you.They will even install another phone line if you need it . I've sent for more info as it looks to good to be true.The most appealing thing is that they would take our son on as a student as long as he was not yet 22.This program is called the Electronic Classroom of Tomorrow.The web site is www.ecotohio.org I don't know if they have anything state to state .From what I could see ontheir site they offered an awful lot of parental involvement. This may be of interest to those who are considering homeschooling and worth a look-see even if you aren't.

-- Raya Amick (Raya2448@ivillage.com), November 29, 2000.

Dear Raya, I too agree that if your son had gone that far in ps that it might have been best to finish. At this point though why not take the GED and be through with it. And go on to college if he wants more education. Many homeschoolers I know of which are also intelligent take their GED at around 16 and then enter college. I wouldn't get sidetracked by the idea of a diploma from the establishment. It's not necessary to enter college.

It sounds as though the public school system didn't have enough to offer to keep him interested, the result being lack of motivation.

I hope all goes well for him and have a happy holiday season!

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), November 30, 2000.

Soni, and all who may be interested: You can read John Taylor Gatto's acceptance speech that he made to the New York State Senate, when he recieved the award for teacher of the year from New York City. Very good speech, a man of few peers. He even complimented all you home schoolers. The web site is: www.trufax.org/w26.htlm

-- Darrell Schlueter Adams Co.,IL (schlut@adams.net), December 02, 2000.