Hi guys!

I hope everyone here is well! I know I promised to stay away and I've done so to-date, but I thought of everyone here when I read some references in the newspapers last week about the Pope making a statement that supposedly changed or reiterated (they were not clear) some position from Vatican II regarding salvation for those outside the Catholic Church and I wasn't sure what he really said (since the media rarely gets things right) and if that represented a change in any Catholic doctrine or dogma, so I thought I'd check with you good folks to get the straight scoop. How's that for a run-on sentence? :-)

From the article, he (the Pope) seemed to be saying that salvation for those outside of Christ is possible and that the previously official Catholic position that the Catholic is the sole means of salvation (or something along those lines) is no longer true.

Did he say anything new? What impact does it have? What is your opinion of it?

I promise not to engage in any arguments over this. I'm just curious what he really said and what you think about it.

Thanks for your input folks!

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 10, 2000

Answers

It does not change anything stated by Vatican II. The document extensively quotes Vatican II. It simply states that Salvation is in and throught Christ. That Christ established one Church to continue His mission on earth, The Catholic Church lead by the successor of Peter. That Salvation is in and through this Church even if outside the visable structure of the Church. Salvation is still in and through The Church, which is the Mystical Body of Christ. That all who call Christ their saviour are united in various ways to The Church. Even those who do not know Christ can be saved through Christ.

Everyone should read the actual document it's not real long and the news reports really twist it up.

Br. Rich SFO

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), December 11, 2000.

Where can I find the full text of what the Pope said about people of all faiths bringing in the Kingdom of God? That is about all I heard on the radio a few days ago and it surprised me? Any ideas?

-- David Wolfe (dwolfe@i-55.com), December 11, 2000.

Hi David,

I'm curious. Are you concerned about your salvation, or that the Catholic church made this statment?

SSM

-- SSM ( follower of Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), December 12, 2000.

Hi SSM,

The motive behind my query was simply curiosity at what appeared (again, from the news reports) to be a significant shift in Catholic belief concerning salvation of those who are not in Christ. Since most of my family is Catholic and I used to be (now Pentecostal), I try to keep up with the Catholic Church whenever possible. And while I do not share many Catholic beliefs, I consider faithful Catholics to be my brothers/sisters in Christ and find that we have far more common ground than not.

I hope that helps to understand my perspective.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 12, 2000.

David, It is really nice to meet you. My whole family is Catholic also. I am a "Born Again" Christian. I belong to a Charismatic non- denominational church. I didn't see that article , do you think you could post it here? I would like to read it.

All true believers know that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ.But I can't argue with this article till I see what it actually says.

Susan

-- SSM (follower of Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), December 12, 2000.

Hi Susan,

It's nice to meet you as well.

I searched through a few sites (including Catholic.org) trying to locate the article, but was unsuccessful.

While I agree that salvation is only through Jesus, as God's Word clearly states, I also realize that God only holds us accountable for what we know. So how does God judge those who die in the womb, who die in infancy, who live a life in an environment with absolutely no hint of who Jesus is, who has no mental capacity to lay hold of salvation, etc?

In Romans, we see that God has left a testimony of His existence in His creation so that no man has an excuse for failing to know that He exists. We also know that God has placed within each living person a conscience which speaks to the person of right and wrong.

So if a person who was born, lived and died in a remote region and was never exposed to Christianity, yet recognized from nature that God must exist and throughout life paid honor and recognition to the God who created everything and obeyed that inner voice in living right and avoiding sin . . . well, I guess I can see such possibilities that would seem to violate the letter, but not the Spirit of the law.

Catholics have long expressed a similar view, but as I recall, it was always mixed with the concept of Purgatory -- that such persons would spend time being purified in Purgatory before being allowed into Heaven. And I don't want to misrepresent the official Catholic position, so if someone would like to post it, please do. From that perspective, it would be easy to reconcile a form of salvation apart from being a disciple of Christ. But since I do not believe in Purgatory, I'm left with the conclusion that God simply applies His judgement on the Day as He sees fit. I am comfortable with that since I trust His judgement, but it's not as clean as having a scripture that specifically spoke to the issue and that makes many Christians uncomfortable forcing many to conclude that God rejects ALL who do not specifically know Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of circumstances. I simply find that to be inconsistent with everything else we know about God and His nature.

I also believe that all aborted babies, regardless of the faith of their "parents", are in Heaven.

Anyway, I know that's more than what you asked for. I guess part of the reason I posted my original query was to see if anything expressed in the Pope's message might shed some light on the issue for me and from my perspective.

I'll keep checking around to see if I can find it. Thanks.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 12, 2000.

Here is the text from 12/9/00 LA TIMES

VATACAN CITY - Tempering a controverseral Vatican declaration on salvation, Pope John Paul II said this week that all who live a just life will be saved, even if they do not believe in Jesus Christ and the Roman Catholic Church. The pontiff, addressing 30,000 pilgrims in St. Perer's Square on Wednesday, strongly reasserted the Second Vatican Council's liberal interpretation of the Bible's teaching on salvation. "The gospel teaches us that those who live in accordance with the Beatitudes- the poor in spirit, the pure of heart, those who bear lovingly the sufferings of life- will enter God's kingdom," John Paul said. The pope apeared to take a far more inclusive approach to salvation than the declaration "Dominus Ieusus," issued Sept.5 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican's guardian of doctrinal orthodoxy. The declaration caused dismay among non-Catholics involved in interfaith dialogue by asserting that their riuals, "insorfar as they depend on superstitions or other errors, constitute an obstacle to salvation." - Religion News Service

I have searched the "Religion News Service" and found nothing on this. I too would like to read the whole text of the pope's speach to see what he acutally said. I too have Roman Catholic relatives and am obviously concerned. It sure seems to me that the pope is saying you do not need to believe the Jesus Christ to be saved. Yet Jesus said He is the "way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." That seems to be a direct contradiction to what this LA TIMES article says the Pope said last week.

-- Tom Nance-Ulrich (nanceulrich@yahoo.com), December 12, 2000.

Hello, As regarding salvation outside of the Catholic Church. Scripture says Acts 16:30-31 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. Faith in any church will not save you on a trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. Question, if the Popes are infallable and the position previously of the Catholic Church was anyone outside of the Catholic Church could not be saved and now the Pope says that it is possible, who is telling the truth or which one is infallable? Again faith in any church, whether Catholic or Protestant will never get one into heaven. The bible says in John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Romans 10:13 says For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. No where in the scriptures does it say put your faith in any church. No church saves, on faith and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. God Bless! Ed<

-- Ed Brasberger (psalm11824@home.com), December 14, 2000.

"Question, if the Popes are infallable and the position previously of the Catholic Church was anyone outside of the Catholic Church could not be saved and now the Pope says that it is possible, who is telling the truth or which one is infallable?"

Excellent question Ed!

It will definitely be amusing to hear the rants and raves and talking in circles "AROGANT CATHOLIC" answer to that question.

Ex. You see Pope 1 said X, and then Pope 2 said that pope 1 was a heretic and he claims Y. "So, we don't have to believe pope 1 because we have new truths which were revealed and makes Y the truth and X the lie. You see, we have realized with our minds that we were wrong in the past(x) and there is a deeper meaning now(Y). Yes we as Popes can use our minds and change the rules. You pathetic people of the world are not allowed to use your own minds to decipher truth."-Pope 2 "But, really pope 1 was telling the truth and was not a heretic. He knew what was right then, so at that time he was infallible."-pope 2 "So, you see, we are Popes and we are infallible, make since?"-pope 2

Come on people!!!

God gave you two eyes, notice the normal way they work is to look in the same direction, not in two different ways. Notice those two funny looking things on each side of your head? They are called ears , you can listen to two different things but you must decipher it in the MIDDLE-YOUR BRAIN!!!!!!

Clear out the cob webs of your mind, it's likely you might find the answer there.......maybe in the desert of your mind? All seven candles make for a real bright light, but one alone is dimmer than the rest. Stand IN the light!

-- doesn'tmatter (notofthis@world.com), December 14, 2000.

We all wish to enter heaven by the grace of God. The Pope has no power in himself to bar the way to heaven. There have been, in the past, anathemas pronounced by Rome. But they were calls to repentance of sin, not obstacles to God's mercy, which is infinite. I marvel at the insistence of ''Born again'' and many anti-Catholic believers, that Jesus alone can save us; no church, no creed, no other way. You would think the Catholic Church had never entertained such a concept and such a doctrine! But in fact, it is in and through the Church this truth has reached all of humanity. Jesus is the Saviour of the world. That's basically the gospel message. The Pope has never added to or departed from that gospel. It is self-destructive to the faith of non-Catholics to oppose the Vicar of Christ at every opportunity, because he is the Holy Father of ALL who have come to believe in Jesus Christ. He is the Shepherd of Christ's flock (John 21: 15-17), successor to the holy apostle Peter.

Explaining to our modern world that Our Lord is Saviour of ALL, the Pope maintains a simple truth spoken by the Lord Himself: ''As you sow, so shall you reap.'' Those baptised in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, water baptism-- are indeed Catholics. The fact many are separated from the Holy See is a scandal that John Paul II would attempt to remedy; not by pronouncing all other religions equal to Christ's Church, but by stressing the generosity and love of that Church. With regard to those just souls that live outside the influence of the Gospel, the Holy Father extends hope still, in the well-known doctrines of the Catholic Church (again) of the Baptism of Desire, and the recognition of ''invincible ignorance''. The Roman Catholic Church has ALWAYS taught us God can save even those who have not known Christ (through no fault of theirs) but nevertheless live holy lives according to their consciences.

Even so, all these graces are from Jesus Christ, through His Holy Church which has spread the Gospel to all nations. It is ALL ONE BAPTISM, the same one given to His Church for all the world: Matthew 28: 19-20

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 14, 2000.

Eugene,

In your post, you mentioned the "Baptism of Desire" and "invincible ignorance". I would like to understand them better. Could you please point me to an official definition of these terms? I tried doing a site search at Catholic.org and came up empty. Is there a better site for this kind of research?

Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks!

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 14, 2000.

Dear David,

Please excuse me for not having at hand an official catechism definition to give you. Others here may direct you to one. I can give you a layman's understanding of both terms; and I'm confident I wouldn't be too far from that catechistic teaching.

Invincible ignorance is a term applied to the condition of life, and presumably conduct, of those unfortunates that have never received God's divine revelation. It may be because they're isolated or otherwise deprived of all opportunities to know the truth. In a case where nevertheless *extraordinary virtue and/or love of neighbor* were characteristic of the person, with at minimum an attrition for sin (a repentance for natural reasons) at the hour of death-- this condition may have merit enough through grace obtained from Jesus Christ's infinite mercy) to indicate in God's judgment this person would have received the sacrament had he/she been able. This form of the sacrament of Baptism is known as Baptism of the Holy Spirit, or baptism of analogy. Otherwise: Baptism of Desire. Numerous biblical examples point to this; and the Church draws on them for the source of the doctrine. Another form Baptism of the Spirit can take is baptism of blood; that is martydom for the faith by persons unbaptised but otherwise just, virtuous and repentant of their sins at the moment of death. Again, the inference can be made these persons would have certainly accepted their Saviour (and Baptism, necessarily) had they been given the choice.

I know this brief explanation is not altogether conclusive. But it's a substantial part of the official Church doctrine. The Pope's statement regarding ''salvation outside of the Church'' doubtless leads in part to his understanding of these truths. They aren't new, as some would try to claim, but traditional and orthodox teachings of the Church from antiquity; in fact from the Apostles.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 14, 2000.

. . . let's just take care of the run-on html thing . . . italics off.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 14, 2000.

My fault. I hate when that happens /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 14, 2000.

Dear David,
Catholic position? The revealed truth is not just a position, as derived from the teachings of the holy apostles and passed on to their successors in the Catholic Church. The Church is under the protection of the Holy Spirit to preserve, defend and teach them to the faithful. They are binding on the faithful on the authority of Christ's own Church.

That condition, or state you describe is of a pagan or heathen at odds with the Church of Christ and the apostles. No baptism of any sort could be anticipated for the person till he/she was converted. It goes without saying there are ethical and relatively moral people who practice idolatrous religion. The best the Church can do for them is pray for their conversion. Who can say how far God's mercy may reach? We certainly know they are not in the True Church. Also, there are heretical sects, not only of the Christian variety, in which a ''just'' person's membership would necessarily be RARE. These parties are rivals or outright enemies of the Church. Nonetheless, by their water Baptism, if a correctly administered one, they could reach salvation. It would depend upon a person's demonstrated LOVE for Christ, hatred of sin, and again, an ingrained invincible ignorance. Only God can judge if their ignorance was willful. But falling in the hands of false prophets is hardly the way to salvation. Christ was very emphatic in warning us of them.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 14, 2000.

Thanks for the clarification Eugene.

My question stems from statements made by my Catholic mother after attending a Catholic class in which she stated that people like Ghandi are ("according to the Church"), in all likelihood, in Heaven because of their good moral nature as are good moral Muslims and Jews because "they worship the same God we do".

At the time, I thought it couldn't possibly be consistent with official Church teaching and must have been some priest's individual thoughts/beliefs. But when you said, "In a case where nevertheless *extraordinary virtue and/or love of neighbor* were characteristic of the person, with at minimum an attrition for sin (a repentance for natural reasons) at the hour of death-- this condition may have merit enough through grace obtained from Jesus Christ's infinite mercy) to indicate in God's judgment this person would have received the sacrament had he/she been able." I took that as sufficiently broad enough to potentially include a Ghandi-type person and I wondered if maybe what my mother was taught might indeed be consistent with Catholic teaching. That's why I asked.

With regard to my various references to a Catholic "position", "view" or "perspective", please don't take offense. My use of the terms are not intended to diminish the import of Catholic teaching. It's just that the Catholic Church has a number of different terms that it uses to describe various levels of belief: dogma, doctrine, etc. And since most Catholic apologists that I have encountered desire precision in the use of the correct term, I try to use a more broad term like "position" since I do not know the official term.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 14, 2000.

I'm pleased with your sincerity, David. You strike me as a man of intelligence and good will. My personal views are that God has all of His creatures in the palm of His hand. It isn't necessary to delve into the mysteries of His Divine Will. He will save whom He has chosen to save. I have to give thanks that I was chosen to be in the Church from birth. Others are far from the Church, but God wills that all men be saved. The day I enter heaven-- God willing --they may be there before me. Just what IF--? We entered heaven one day, and saw Alexander the Great, or Golda Meier, or maybe Elvis Presley. Why should the infinite mercy of God NOT save them from their sins? Is this for me to say? Of course not. Our holy mother Church teaches us to have faith in Jesus, and worry about our own sins. We have to pray for one another, most of all for those that have no faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 15, 2000.

Thank you Eugene and good answer. Its just that sometimes I can't help but to ponder some of the mysteries of God's will knowing full well I'm incapable of fully grasping it. :-)

Take care and God bless!

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 15, 2000.

Eugene and Dave,

I believe that all babies who die before the age of reason(whatever that be,God knows), and those whose mental capacity is unable to reason, will go straight to heaven when they die.

But if all the rest of us have to do is be GOOD to get into the Kingdom of God, then why did Jesus have to die on the Cross?

Susan

-- SSM (follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), December 15, 2000.

Dear Susan, that's a very good question. You do not believe in original sin, I take it? What do you make of the ''Good Thief'' of Our Lord's crucifixion?

The Church cannot say an unbaptized infant who dies goes to heaven directly. But you believe it does. The thief who died at Jesus' right hand was promised Paradise; yet he deserved to die for his crimes. He said so himself. The thief made an act of faith in his dying moments, and Jesus forgave him his evil life. A baby has no way to express faith. Though he is without actual sin, he is still born in original sin. How can we tell what God's will is in that case?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 15, 2000.

Susan,

I never said being "good" was in any way sufficient, in and of itself, to gain access to Heaven. I have been basically espousing that one aspect of God's grace in relation to His judgement is that He only holds us accountable for what we know whether that knowledge came from being taught the truth of God's grace through Jesus Christ, having read about it, having personally witnessed God's manifest nature through His servants, or through a conscience that speaks to us of God.

The rest of my statements have been an attempt to clarify and understand the nuances of the Catholic beliefs by posing different "what if's". In the end, it appears that we have common beliefs in this area.

Consider Romans 2:14, which speaks of the final judgement of Gentiles who have never heard of the Jewish law nor of grace through faith in Jesus Christ when it says, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ . . ."

Paul is saying exactly what I was in my earlier posts, that God will judge us based on what we know and how we respond and obey to the level of truth we have been exposed to. If we have never personally heard of Jesus, but have obeyed our conscience which testifies not to commit murder, not to steal, not to lie, etc. And we obey our conscience which proclaims the existence of an Almighty Creator who is worthy of honor and worship even though we do not know His Name. And we reject all other false gods. Then that person could face judgement with a clean conscience having obeyed God.

I hope that helps to clarify my beliefs.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 15, 2000.

David:

Of all of the topics discussed in this thread, I would like to make some comments to the question David originally posed, ie, "salvation outside the Catholic Church", and the Church's recent comments on it. The full text of the document known as "Dominus Iesus" by the Pope, on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church can be found at:

http://www.vatican.va/latest_en.htm (then click on "Declaration ‘Dominus Iesus' Cong. Doctrine of the Faith (August 6, 2000))

In sub-sections, 20, 21, 22 and 23, the Church re-affirms its belief of being the one true Church founded and commissioned by Christ (Acts 17:30-31) and that her work is missionary (Mt. 28:19-20). While she acknowledges that a grace is bestowed by Christ upon those outside of the Church wishing salvation, she cautions however "it is clear that it would be contrary to the faith to consider the Church as one way of salvation alongside those constituted by other religions." The Church is telling us that a non-Catholic while receiving the grace of salvation from Christ only gains salvation through a "mysterious relationship with the Church". She clearly believes that even these individuals receive their salvific reward only through the Church herself as the body of Christ. She reaffirms the necessity of conversion to Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments. The Church is clearly saying that those outside of the Church while the possibility exists to attain salvation, are at a distinctive disadvantage and are deprived of the "fullness of the means of salvation" ie. the sacraments.

So, contrary to what many think, the Church is not saying that non- Catholics cannot be saved and similarly she is not saying that all religions are equal. She maintains the position that she is the one true Church founded and commissioned by Christ to go forth and make disciples of all men.

-- Ed (grader@accglobal.net), December 16, 2000.

Thank you very much Ed! Nice piece of detective work. I never would have found that. I'll read through the entire text over the weekend.

As Eugene earlier clarified, I'm very glad to hear that those following non-Christian religions (e.g. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism) are not included in the Catholic Church's statement of those who could inherit salvation since these have rejected Christ.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 16, 2000.

David:

I don't agree with Eugene's statement that "those following non- Christian religions (e.g. Judaism, Islam, Hinduism) are not included in the Catholic Church's statement of those who could inherit salvation since these have rejected Christ." if in fact he said that, for I can find nowhere in the foregoing where he has. I would argue however, that anyone from any faith, by way of ignorance of the Truth, can enter God's kingdom through the grace given by Christ that "Dominus Iesus" refers to. To deny the fullness of Truth does not necessarily imply fullness of understanding followed by subsequent rejection while we may see it that way. Only Christ will be able to make this fine distinction as to how informed the decision of a non-Catholic was when he rejected Christ.

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), December 16, 2000.

Ed,

Eugene didn't make that statement verbatim, I paraphrased, but perhaps incorrectly.

When I asked whether or not the Catholic Church held open the possibility of salvation for those actively participating in a non- Christian religion such as Muslim, Eugene responded, "No baptism of any sort could be anticipated for the person till he/she was converted. It goes without saying there are ethical and relatively moral people who practice idolatrous religion. The best the Church can do for them is pray for their conversion.

When I said "because they have rejected Christ", that was my addition and not meant to be attributed to Eugene. Overall, I did a fairly sloppy job of quoting/paraphrasing. My apologies to Eugene. I'll try to be more careful.

Let me try again. So, for example, are you saying that a Hindu who worships Shiva throughout her life because that is all she has ever been exposed to (ignorance) still has the possibility to be saved even though she has a lifelong devotion to a false god? If so, are there any special requirements regarding living a moral life which is what Susan was questioning?

My belief is that such a person could not be saved until she rejected the false god and recognized that there is indeed an Almighty God even if she didn't know His Name and she began to follow the law written in her heart (conscience). To me, that would be consistent with what Paul says in Romans. For me, the key is that while the person may indeed be ignorant of the Truth, he/she is required to reject the false in obedience to his/her conscience which God placed in every one of us.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 16, 2000.

Dear Sir, Look at my statement again. I only said, a pagan or heathen had to be converted. But I qualified it; posing an extraordinary condition: the pagan who, through no fault of his/her own, followed false Gods and by the Grace of God, and through Christ's all-reaching mercy, still lived in charity and love of neighbor-- had some attrition--not complete contrition --for sin, and deserves the Baptism of Desire. This is a Catholic teaching upon which the holy Father may well be basing such statements. It is what's explained in the ''invincible ignorance'' argument; a type of Baptism that is still possible to the hordes of morally and spiritually deprived of the world. But Our Lord has taught that Baptism is a condition necessary to all who would enter heaven.

Nothing defiled can enter into the sight of God. (Apocalypse 21:27)-- And since the sacrament of Baptism cleanses the soul of all sin, infusing sanctifying grace-- so; anyone that recives it (through Jesus Christ) can return to God, the pagan can also be saved. But NOT through the medium of his own errors, through Baptism of Desire. The Pope has no other basis upon which the current inclusive message of love can rest. It is reasonable enough to the believer. But the concept of this doctrine is not a new one.

If the Pope has pronounced on anything else, I don't know. My intuition is, John Paul II is appealing to the unbaptised masses to come to Jesus Christ. Does anyone find that extraordinary?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 16, 2000.

Dear Eugene,

My apologies for being thick-headed and at the risk of trying your patience, please allow me to ask a few questions to clarify.

You said, "a pagan or heathen had to be converted". Then you describe how the pagan can enter Heaven through an extraordinary condition which ultimately equates to deserving the Baptism of Desire which allows the person to continue worshipping idols/false gods and does not involve a traditional "conversion" to Christianity of any sort.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "converted"? It apparently does not involve the "repent and be baptized" approach I am thinking of when I hear the term.

Also, you took exception to my applying your statement to all non- Christians such as Muslims (which was my initial implication that you had responded to) and specified that you only intended your statement to include pagans. Why are pagans treated any differently than a Jew or Muslim? Why are not all non-Christians treated alike?

Is it possible for a Muslim or a Jew to enter Heaven and what would be the requirements? Is the Baptism of Desire available to them as well?

Thank you in advance for your help.

Dave

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 16, 2000.

David,
Without entering on theological fine points, and possibly misleading someone, I maintain the conditions for Muslims, Jews and others outside the Catholic Church-- are not so unequal. That's why I led with the opening premise; ''As you sow, so shall you reap.''

A Catholic must lead a virtuous life, and at least repent on his deathbed of all sin-- or he is in the same boat as any pagan, Jew or Muslim who has been against Christ's Church and dies in sin. Conversely, a Muslim that repents his sins, gives his soul at death to Allah, and was not to blame for his heresy, may also reach --through CHRIST-- a form of effective Baptism; because God is all-just, and will concede to him the grace of a saintly death-- i.e., the Baptism of Desire! It may not be as easy as snapping your fingers. Neither for him, nor for the Christian. In both cases, the grace and mercy obtained is from Our Lord Jesus Christ alone, who died on the cross to save sinners. The Catholic Church makes us recipients of His grace through evangelization, ministry and the sacraments. Muslims haven't received the grace from Mohammad, nor Buddhists from Buddha, nor Hindus from Shiva. But they can find it in Jesus; if they are virtuous in this life. That is mainly what the Pope is saying, I suspect /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 16, 2000.

Thank you very much Eugene. You've been patient with me and have helped me to understand the Baptism of Desire which is one I had never heard of before. I appreciate your efforts. God bless you.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), December 16, 2000.

Hello All:

I came across another article on this subject that some of you may enjoy. It can be found at the following:

http://www.catholic.com/ROCK/cathdiff.htm

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), December 17, 2000.

Dear Ed,
I read it. It's a definitive work, for anybody that doubts the TRUE Church is the Catholic Church.

Thanks for submitting this!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 17, 2000.

Eugene,

Some Catholics may be part of The TRUE church of Jesus Christ, but anyone who believes that Jesus is THE SAVIOR, and makes Him the Lord of their life, is part of the Body of Christ.

In 1 Corinthians 12:12-13 Paul says "Our bodies have many parts, but the many parts make up only one body when they are all put together. So it is with the "body" of Christ. Each of us is a part of the one body of Christ. Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves and some are free. But the Holy Spirit has fitted us all together into one body. We have been baptized into Christ's body by the one Spirit, and have all been given that same Holy Spirit.

I'll bet there are people in your own congregation (mine too) who have not asked Jesus to be the LORD of their lives. Go to church on Sunday and act all pious and then during the week they are cheating others in business, committing adultry,lying, stealing, etc. It's about "walking the talk", not just "talking the talk".

Susan

-- SSM ( Follower of Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), December 18, 2000.

Dear Susan,
The last part of your post deals with ''lip service'' to Jesus, and I agree whole-heartedly with you. If some Catholics are guilty of this, it is NOT the Catholic Church that has failed them. They are in the world, and the Church teaches VERY emphatically the three main difficulties for a believer are the World, the Flesh, and the Devil.

In your first paragraph you maintain belief in Christ makes all of us members of the Body of Christ, and quote from 1Corinthians 12: --Only the same verses say clearly we are BAPTIZED into Christ's Body, and given the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism Paul speaks of is the Catholic sacrament, dear Susan. You ARE a Catholic, by the same baptism; and a fallen away Catholic. (Do not take that as pejorative, it only means you are separated from the Church, and not necessarily from your own fault.) Your belief is necessary for the sacrament; you are a member of the Body. Let the same grace Jesus has granted you for your faith lead you back to His Church. Mr. Lauzon submitted an excellent article that explains what I'm talking about:
http://www.catholic.com/ROCK/cathdiff.htm
You are sincere, and you should read it for a clearer idea of what the Body of Christ means to the Church and to a True Believer. I urge you to see it now. God bless you, good lady!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), December 18, 2000.

Eugene,

I am praying that God draw you to Him, and that you ask Jesus to be the Lord of your life. That you ask Jesus to empty you of SELF and fill you with His Holy Spirit.

I want the best for you. Merry Christmas!

-- SSM ( True Believer) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), December 26, 2000.

Hi, Marylu.

You asked for someone to show you a thread about this topic in another thread.

God bless you.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), June 28, 2002.

Thank you, Br. Rich. That's the way I understood the catechism!!

Blessings,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 28, 2002.

Top

-- @ (@@@@.@), September 06, 2002.

Thanks to whoever pulled this thread, perhaps for my benefit.

But it didn't help me much... really, I'm not being a jerk on purpose here. It just didn't seem to work for me; I read the whole thing. Are there any others?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 06, 2002.

And I thought it was pulled up for me. If it was....I got something out of it.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), September 06, 2002.

SALAVATION COMES THROUGH AND ONLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ( NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER IF NOT THROUGH THE SON (JESUS)HE IS NOT THE CHURCH ...WE ARE THE CHURCH MY BODY IS THE TEMPLE AND IF I HAVE THE SPIRIT LIVING IN ME I SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE IF I DONT HAVE HIS SPIRIT IN ME (HOLY SPIRIT I WILL NOT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE....THAT IS THE BIBLE NEVER SAID IT HAS TO BE THROUGH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ....IT SAYS THROUGH JESUS CHRIST AND HIS FATHERS HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH YOU (THE TEMPLE)WILL GIVE YOU TESTIMONY THAT YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT CHURCH ....TELL ME HAVE YOU BEEN BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST AND FIRE ..AND BAPTIZED IN WATER ..LIKE THE BIBLE INSTRUCTS US TOO .....HAVE YOU ACCEPTED JESUS AS YOUR ONLY SAVIOR AND NOW KEEP HIS LAWS AND WALK IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH ...OBEYING HIS SPIRITS LEADING STAYING CLEAN FROM SIN AND AWAY FROM THIS EVIL WORLD AND ITS FORBIDDEN PLEASURES ????IF U R THEN YOU ARE SAVED ...KEEP WALKING THAT WAY FOR YOU MUST STAY HOLY AND OBEYING FOR NOTHING DIRTY OR SOILED WILL ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD ...IF YOU PEOPLE READ THE BIBLE THEN YOU WONT BE FOOLED BY FALSE PROPHETS THAT CLAIM TO BE OF GOD BUT ARE NOT!!!!...SEEK THE TRUTH AND YOU SHALL FIND IT .....ROMANS 2:7- 8ETERNAL LIFE TO THOSE WHO BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN DOING GOOD SEEK FOR GLORY ,HONOR,AND MORALITY;(12:8)>>BUT TO THOSE WHO ARE SELFSEEKING AND DO NOT OBEY THE TRUTH ,BUT OBEY UNRIGHTEOUSNESS - INDIGNATION AND WRATH,(12:9)>>TRIBULATION AND ANGUISH,ON EVERY SOUL OF MAN WHO DOES EVIL,OF THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO OF THE GREEK.(12:10) >>BUT GLORY AND HONOR ,AND PEACE TO EVERYONE WHO WORKS WHAT IS GOOD ,TO THE JEW FIRST AND ALSO TO THE GREEK .(12:11).>>FOR THERE IS NO PARTIALITY WITH GOD ...(12:12)>>FOR AS MANY AS HAVE SINNED IN THE LAW WILL BE JUDGED BY THE LAW..(12:13)>>FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST IN THE SIGHT OF GOD BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW WILL BE JUSTIFIED;>>>>>GALATIANS 6:7-8>>>>DO NOT BE DECIEVED ,GOD IS NOT MOCKED ;FOR WHAT EVER A MAN SOWS,THAT HE WILL ALSO REAP.(6:8>>>FOR HE WHO SOWS TO HIS FLESH WILL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION ,BUT HE WHO SOWS TO THE SPIRIT WILL OF THE SPIRIT REAP EVER LASTING LIFE.!!! 2TIMOTHY 3:15 >>>AND THAT FROM CHILDHOOD YOU HAVE KNOWN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES,WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE YOU WISE FOR SALVATION THROUGH FAITH WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS !!!2TIMOTHY2:10>>>THEREFORE I ENDURE ALL THINGS FOR THE SAKE OF THE ELECT ,THAT THEY ALSO MAY OBTAIN THE SALVATION WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS WITH ETERNAL GLORY <<<<
-- rick r. (wrbjk@aol.com), November 01, 2002.

Try it again, Rick -- but this time use mixed cases. (Capitalize only when appropriate.)

Break your message into paragraphs by hitting the "enter key" twice.

Be respectful of Catholicism. Explain how you disagree and why.

Then maybe someone will read and respond to your message -- instead of everyone ignoring it.

-- Try To (Show@Some.Maturity), November 04, 2002.

Salvation is thru Jesus and only Jesus.Jesus is the way and the light .Jesus instructs us to obey God`s commandements but not only that he also says to walk in spirit and in truth which means not only to keep thy laws but to practice what the new testament teaches us on how to live and please your God .Salvation is like that A+ that a math teacher gives u ...its a free gift, but there is no garantee you will have that A+ at the end of the semester.One must work hard and do everything that is asked of us by the teacher to keep the A+ and still have it by the end of the semester.God gives us this free gift of salvation thru his loving and faithful son (Jesus).We must repent of our sins (that means to turn your back on sin and this evil world and its pleasures).Now live each day after repenting practicing what he teaches in the new testament ...In Prayer to the Father in heaven in Jesus name)note :Jesus never said to pray to Mary ...he instructs us to pray to the Father look it up for your self in the bible please).Tell em we repent of our sins ,ask for forgiveness for all our sins (to the Father in Jesus name) and ask Jesus to come in our hearts to become our only Lord and Savior ...to clean us with his blood and write our names in the book of life and never erase it.Jesus says in the book of Matthew that one who is trying to save his life will lose but one who gives his up his life (way of life :sin)he shall find life eternal.Matthew teaches alot about salvation but one other Book i recommend is the book of John ....read carefully John chapter 15 ......that says 15:1>>"I am the vine and my Father is the vinedresser.15:2>>Every branch in Me that DOES not bear fruit He takes away and every branch that bears fruit He prunes,that it may bear more fruit. Meaning anyone who in Jesus does not do what God commands of him and does not grow spiritually in Jesus bearing the fruit of love ,gentleness,mercy,forgiveness,humbleness,obedience,.....basically any one who speaks to be christian but still does not do or practice christianity.One must keep thy laws and stay away from SIN which includes adultery which we commit with our eyes for Jesus says anyone who even looks at a woman or man with lust has commited adultery in there hearts with that person and must ask forgiveness from the Father in Jesus name and never do it agian .Temptation is one thing satan will continue to use against u in your walk with Jesus ..Jesus instructs us to Pray and Fast for the Body is Weak but the Spirit is willing .He understands temptation and fully understands that with out praying and fasting thaT we as mere humans cannot defend our selves agianst the attacks of satan which include temptation.Jesus understands that we are not strong phisically to fight a spirituasl war but he also knows that we have Prayer and fasting which strengthens us for the battle (spiritual battle )Jesus says in the Bible that ALL of us have what it takes to make it to Heaven!That means me and u have no excuse to not seek truth and follow it ...we all have acsess to a bible and we all have acsess to the Father thru Jesus.Lets take advantage of this free gift that is available to ALL.Dont forget to take care of your gift once u receive it for the Bible(Gods word)instructs us to take care of our salvation for we have a formidable fo that walks around like a hungry lion just waiting for u to slip and give him opor. to steal your gift(salvation) Please read and study your bibles and always pray to Father in Heaven in Jesus name consistently and remember that this has to be a way of life and not use phony excuses like(Oh no body is perfect we all make mistakes ) Romans 1:20>>For since the creation of the world His invisable attributes are clearly seen ,being understood by the things that are made ,even His eternal Power and Godhead,so that they are without EXCUSE.continue>Romans 1:21>>because ,although they knew God ,they did not glorify Him as God,nor were thankful,but became futile in their thoughts,and their foolish hearts were darkened.Lets be careful to seek all truth and first and foremost Glorify God and his wonderful son Jesus our savior.God bless u all and i ask dont be so sure of your own thoughts but be sure of what the bible Gods Word)...teaches us for it is truth ...we must accept the FULL gospel all its teachings in the new testament whether it sounds harsh or not ....please dont ever fool your selves for u may fool your selves and men alike but God is never fooled .Remember when we sin to not give up in the walk of perfection (not perfect note its a process of perfection)and continue to seek him continue to fight spiritually he dosnt want u practices sin ...fight it and fight the way he instructs by serving him in spirit and in truth..there is no other way ..Read revelation 3:7-13....that is the true church and only church that is going to heaven the one that practices his word not just preaches it ...the one that doesnt practice sin!! Nothing unclean is entering Heaven Me or u unclean still practicing sin and obeying him (<
-- r.r. (wrbjk@aol.com), November 05, 2002.

corection>>>>(not perfect its a process of perfection).....corection>>>>(our walk is a process of perfection ....never to say that we are perfect but that we are on the road to perfection for no one but the Father ,son and holyspirit is perfect.)god bless u all

-- r.r. (wrbjk@aol.com), November 05, 2002.

^^ another correction sorry ...disregard that last part ("and obeying him )...thats not suppose to be part of that sentence .)I dont care for grammer just try to receive the message please ...god bless u all ....take care ...

-- r.r. (wrbjk@aol.com), November 05, 2002.

What's going on here, r.r. --?

You appear to have a lot on your mind; and you're in a big hurry. For starters, why don't you break your posts up into large and small paragraphs?

You keep sending out biblical passages wholesale, which everybody here's familiar with. We have Bibles. Thank you, but did you think all Catholics are ignorant? That we don't know about our Saviour, about sin and forgiveness, about heaven and about love? --r.r., save that for the Sunday School class. All of us here are adults, Sir.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 05, 2002.

You obviously dont enjoy to read Gods word ....if its me I would read the message and say AMEN!I dont get offended or try to anylize why or what the persons intentions are ....I`ll just receive the message and say AMEN!....One other thing ......DONT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH .....DID I SAY YOU WERE IGNORENT?????HUH!!????....Sometimes I hear messages from the bible from people that I already Know!....and instead of saying "What you think I`m Ignorent or something ...You know what I say ....THANK YOU AMEN .I as a christian love to hear or read the word whether someone tells me the same passage two hundred times ....You know why ???...because I never grow tired of hearing it or reading it!!..A mature adult christian would have just RECIEVED THE MESSAGE AND SAiD AMEN! GLORY TO JESUS !!!.....Why dont you just worry about your salvation buddy ....and stop worrying about how i write or why i write these messages.Sorry I didnt know you were mister know it all ...the most wise and knowledgeable man on earth you dont need to hear anything from the bible cause you know it alll.GOD BLESS ALL >>>>>I~M NOT SORRY IF THE WORD OF GOD OFFENDED YOU...or irritated you ..lol.......remember its about LIVING THE WORD NOT JUST PREACHING IT !!!!

-- r.r. (wrbjk@aol.com), November 06, 2002.

r.r., Sir:
The Word of God is wonderful. You aren't wonderful; because you let on that you can teach others the word of God. In fact, you haven't a clue. But you must mean well. Since the forum doesn't ask for your preaching, and you type like a waterfall, somebody had to tell you so. Save it for your Sunday School children. Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), November 06, 2002.

I just found a nice article on this topic. It is an interview with Cardinal Ratzinger regarding objections to Dominus Jesus.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/Theology/obdomihs.htm

Remember that the Church has not deviated from the "extra ecclesiam non salus" teaching of Pius XII. It's been a while, but I remember my Ecclesiology professor in Rome spending a long time on this matter. There are some Catholics who consider themselves to be more Catholic than the Pope and take single quotes out of proper context (this one and the one on the old Mass come to mind) and declare Vatican II and the current Pope as heretical. Rest assured, the Church has never and will never reverse any of Her authorative teachings on matters of faith and morals. But sometimes you need to dig a little to get to the bottom of the issue. This is one of them.

God bless!

-- Hollis (catholic@martinsen.com), November 07, 2002.

Hi Hollis, I just finished reading Dominus Iesus. It is really really good!

Anyone else here read it?

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), November 09, 2002.

.-

-- (x@y.z), November 10, 2002.