Today's paper has an article in it concerning a woman who had cancerous tumors within her heart. To get them out they removed her heart, cut out the tumors/growths, replaced the lost heart muscle with tissue from a cow's heart and then put her heart back in. Valves from pigs hearts have been used in humans for some years now.

Would a dedicated vegan accept animal tissue within their body in this manner?

I also have another vegan question for one with an open mind. E-mail me.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 26, 2000

Answers

Animals have always been a part of our diets. We have always used them for our advantage it's our nature to survive. It matters not if we eat them, use they,re hides for clothing, shoes, etc.etc.,it's just a fact of life. If someone tells you it's ok to use a animal to sustain life like Ken mentioned above, and you agree. I ask you what's the difference? The early pioneers owed their survival to fur trapping. The Indians used to run heards of buffalo off of cliffs for they're meat and hides. I think alot of people today are out of touch, I mean, afterall,they can go to the store and get everything they need.

I'm greatfull to all creatures. hillbilly

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), December 26, 2000.

Thank you Hillbilly, but I would rather not have this thread turn into yet another debate over vegetarism versus eating meat, dairy products or fish. Let's restrict it to the question.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 26, 2000.

Ken, I don't think there are a lot of vegans on this site. Most of us vegetarians are lacto ovo vegetarians. If it's okay to answer your question as a person who doesn't eat meat but isn't against the use of animal products I will.

If the use of an animal's organs will sustain the life of a human, then do it, and be thankful to God Almighty that the animals organs were designed in such a way that it could save the life of a person.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 26, 2000.

As a veggie with a vegaan sis (who's rather militant) I will try to answer the question, at least as well as I can. I, personally believe in the idea that when it comes to my survival vs another's, be it animal or human, that I have as much a right to survive aas they do, and vice versa. In other words, I would fish or hunt if I was in a survival situation, but only with the proper reverence and thanks given for the death of another. To my mind, that carries over into health care, as well. I am oppsosed to eating meat out of preference rather than true need. Also am against animal testing where other methods are both available and useful (this is the case in all cosmetics testing and 90% of all drug testing, no matter what the bio-spin-docs would have you believe.) (Boy, it's hard to type with a cat licking your hand!)

That said, I fully believe that my sis would go to the operating room kicking and screaming, if at all. However, there are (and are sure to be in the future) many alternatives which include synthetic valves and other types of therepies. True, they're not cutting edge, but they're also not as untested and are less expensive, and provide less opportunty for the possibility of cross-over animal/human diseases in the future. I feel that because of her feelings on the issues at hand, she would more than likely settle for "second best" which would in all likelyhood be better for her than the originally mentioned choices.

Many people believe that cloning will advance quickly to the point where needed body parts can be cloned from your own tissue, obviating the need for animal parts and anti-rejection drugs, a major bane of tissue transplants of any variety. Although this is a touchy issue (and one for another post), I feel that it will come to pass sooner rather than later, regardless of our preferences. If not here, than somewhere else, where folks (as they have always done) will take they're dollars and hopes and people here, seeing revenue and hope exported to other countries, will find ways of making the unpalatable tolerable at home. Hence, I predict that withing 50 years this discussion will be moot in any case, problably sooner.

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), December 26, 2000.

I'm not a vegan, but as a person who refrains from pork for religious reasons, I would sooner die than to have pig body parts used to sustain my life. My step-daughter is a vegan, and I'd have to ask her, but I'm fairly certain that she'd also prefer dying to having an animal killed to harvest it's heart valves for her use.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 26, 2000.

Rebekah:

On an average day in the U.S. 130,000 cattle, 7,000 calves, 360,000 hogs and 24 million chickens are slaughtered. Thus, it is not like a cow or hog is being killed specifically for this purpose.

However, a baboon did likely die to harvest its heart for that baby in Loma Linda, CA years ago now. Had the heart not been rejected, would it have been a good trade-off? You have me there.

Even though I do eat beef, veal is excluded due solely to the way it is raised.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 27, 2000.

That is a staggering amount of animals, Ken. I wonder how much of that is wasted...wow.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), December 27, 2000.

Doreen:

I suspect very little as slaughter plants have a market for almost everything. What happens to chicken feathers? Now they are chopped up fine and incorporated into animal feed as protein. If that is stopped, they will find another market for them.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), December 27, 2000.

Ken, I don't mind eating meat- it's necessary if we are going to consume dairy products and eggs. But I wouldn't want any part of a pig sewn into my body, they are unclean to me.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), December 27, 2000.

Ken,5 years ago we had a beautiful full term 9lb. baby boy.16 hours after he was born we were told he needed a heart transplant.We were vegetarian at the time,everthing turned out okay with some real major surgery but if his only chance was animal parts I woulda done it.It's a real personal choice I guess, and it would depend on your reasons for being vegan.On the other hand I have a diabetic son and they did some research with human fetuses for pancreatic cell transplant,And I told him if thats the only cure son, not while your livin here!But that could open a whole new thread...don't wanna go there and iffin I do Ken for goodness sake stop me!!!...teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 27, 2000.

Just tryin to clarify, Teri. You are/were vegetarian; you had one child born with a life-threatening heart defect, and another who is/was diabetic?

Am I confused here, or could we possibly discuss some issues of natal nutrition?

Sign me "Always learning!"........

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 27, 2000.

earthmama, sure you can!Stuff happens hon,Iused to think that way too.My brother in law just died of liver cancer in july,he was a phys- ed teacher, a avid outdoorsman and had consumed no red meat for 10 yrs.The doctors told us our son is called a pollution baby...go figure?We owned a health food store for a few years and I see a naturopath regularly.I am a doula and I teach prenatal classes,I am 110 lbs soaking wet, there is no history in either side of diabetes.I am as puzzled as you:) :)..teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 27, 2000.

sorry i didn't answer the veg. part...yes I was vegetarian through that pregnancy.When we moved to this farm I ate the meat we raised.I did have a hard time,eating enough protein i was hypoglycemic from a yeast overload which has been corrected...teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 27, 2000.

I would think a study of how many babies were born diabetic and/or with birth defects, proportionally, to either veggies or meat eaters should be undertaken before any further quesions are raised vis a vis is being a veggie bad for your baby. In my opinion, more babies are born with health problems (proportionally speaking, of course) to those who eat meat, but I am of course personally biased on this issue. However, when a meat eater bears a sickly child, few people say "Well, she ate meat during the pregnancy, don't you know."

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), December 28, 2000.

hi soni,I just wanted to let you know that the information i posted was in reference to Ken's question about heart valves.It may not be fair that I answered bcuz I am not a strict vegan.It was just my opinion on what I would have done if my son who did need surgery would have needed a piggy part.My next response was to earthmama who was trying to get some answers as to the cause of my having two children with health problems and questioned my prenatal diet.Fair question I believe,though I must admit I as mom do ofcourse feel guilty for anything and everything.I had lots of questions myself and was really just sharing a bit about myself to say that we don't always have control over what we think we do.Even with good diets.excercise and good livin things happen that are not within our ability to fix.I don't believe that diet was responsible in either case.Diabetes in children (who are not extremely obese or genetically predisposed)is caused by an overly-active immune system with turns on its own beta cells consuming them as intruders,leaving the child with no pancretic function.Adult onset diabetes is usually diet and weight related and the pancreas still produces its own insulin,but cannot use it effectively.We are all slim,active whole grain eating organic gardeners...who do eat meat.But we were told there was a high incidence of these type of defects in our area (the great lakes)Each time i post on the forum I feel really misunderstood,I guess that is going to happen until people know who I am and who I am not.I am not offended I just do not want to give you the impression that I think one way is better or worse that is not what I am about........thanx for leting me rant..teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 28, 2000.

Teri, I do not believe in guilt, or blaming. I cannot even imagine the heartache you have experienced with your babies being so seriously ill. This is just a subject of great interest to me, and my research over the years is always open to new information. You have a refreshingly open mind!

Very interesting about the posibility of some environmental influence? Can you expound on that some more? ( I suppose I am annoying Ken now since I'm not directly answering his question...sorry Ken....:) )

And to Soni, although it is true that I believe an omnivourous diet is optimal for most people, I think your idea about lots more studies being done is excellent. Using your scenario, if a meat eater bears a sickly child, I think my snoopy brain would indeed wonder about the parents' diet; there is much more to a healthy nutritional profile than just meat.

You might be interested in this article, since it covers Dr. Price's discoveries which include prenatal, and childhood nutrition.

ancient dietary wisdom

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), December 29, 2000.

Good morning!I'm sure there have been a ton of studies done ,its just knowing where to find them!Thanx earthmama for you kind words.The kids are super healthy now with the exception of diabetes.My older son is going on an insulin pump this month which should simulate the way your body and mine work,and the little guy was out of the hospital when he was 15 days old!Can you believe that?We were able to help another couple in our area who knew that their baby would be born with the same defect,only their outcome was not good and she lived only 8 days.We are very close to them now,and very very thankful for our blessings.Is you are interested the defect was called transposition of the great arteries.The hospital that did the surgery does 300 of this surgery a year for all of eastern Canada.Soni I'll bet my 7th day adventist friends,or my naturopath have those studies if your interested.And i agree with what you said,in your post...teri

-- teri (mrs_smurf2000@yahoo.ca), December 29, 2000.