When was papal infalability declared? Was'nt the Pope wrong in the Crusades? Historic discoveries show that the Pope and his army concored Rome in the Dark Ages, was'nt that wrong? The selling of indulgences? Burning people at the stake (Joan of Ark)?

-- Chris Fox (martinaj@sprynet.com), January 07, 2001

Answers

Response to When was papal infalability declared

Actually Papal Infalibility is seen through out the history of the Church. Documents and decisions all the way back into the first centuries show that the decision of the Bishop of Rome was accepted as final and without appeal. Sometimes beliefs are challenged or become confused and the Church responds with a declaration of something that needed to be cleared up. This happened with Papal Infalibility at Vatican I. Some people were proposing that a Church Council superceeded the authority of the Pope. To set this straight Vatican I made a clear statement of just what authority is vested in the office of Peter and why.

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), January 07, 2001.

Response to When was papal infalability declared

I don't know when or why papal infallibility became the norm. I would guess it stems from the words of Jesus to Peter. Jesus gave Peter the keys to Heaven and Hell and told him that whatever he bound or loosed on earth would be also bound or loosed on earth. Also Peter was called the rock on whom the church was to be founded.

Peter is referred to as the 1st pope, but to my mind I think that the keys still belong to Peter and not the successive popes who have claimed his place. The pope is not infallible, he is human and mistakes have been made through this humanity. The pope has a lot to answer for and I'm sure he will be treated just like anyone else when he meets God face to face.

-- Sharon Guy (sharon@sguy.co.uk), January 12, 2001.

Response to When was papal infalability declared

Jmj
Hi, Chris and Sharon.

As you can imagine, the topic of infallibility has arisen many times in the three-year life of this forum. All past threads (1,000 or more) are available for you to read. When you get to this page, scroll down to the "uncategorized" section and head back in time all the way down to January of 1998. You can do "FIND" commands on "infal" and "pope", and you will find various discussions of infallibility. Note that you should search on "infal", because people have misspelled "infallibility" in several ways.

In fact, Ed Lauzon posted the following less than one month ago (December 16, 2000), on another "infallibility" thread. It has several things that would be helpful to you right now, Chris and Sharon, because you are laboring under some misconceptions. Pope John Paul II definitely does possess the charism of infallibility, as have all popes. (Popes always exercised this gift throughout history, though that fact was not solemnly proclaimed as a dogma until about 1870, at the First Vatican Ecumenical Council.):

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"The doctrine of papal infallibility does not mean the pope is always right in all his personal teachings. Catholics are quite aware that, despite his great learning, the pope is very much a human being and therefore liable to commit human error. On some subjects, like sports and manufacturing, his judgment is liable to be very faulty. The doctrine simply means that the pope is divinely protected from error when, acting in his official capacity as chief shepherd of the Catholic fold, he promulgates a decision which is binding on the conscience of all Catholics throughout the world. ... In order for the pope to be infallible on a particular statement, however, four conditions must apply: 1) he must be speaking 'ex cathedra' ... that is, 'from the Chair' of Peter, or in other words, officially, as head of the entire Church; 2) the decision must be for the whole Church; 3) it must be on a matter of faith or morals; 4) the pope must have the intention of making a final decision on a teaching of faith or morals, so that it is to be held by all the faithful.

"It must be interpretive, not originative; the pope has no authority to originate new doctrine. He is not the author of revelation--only its guardian and expounder. He has no power to distort a single word of Scripture, or change one iota of divine tradition. His infallibility is limited strictly to the province of doctrinal interpretation, and it is used quite rarely. It is used in order to clarify, to 'define,' some point of the ancient Christian tradition. It is the infallibility of which Christ spoke when He said to Peter, the first pope: 'I will give (o thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven.' (Matt. 16:19). Certainly Christ would not have admonished His followers to 'hear the church' (Matt. 18:17) without somehow making certain that what they heard was the truth -- without somehow making the teaching magisterium of His Church infallible. ... [I would add other words of Jesus from Matt. 16 as making even clearer the fact that the Church (and the pope speaking for her) is infallible: 'upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.' JFG] No pope has ever used his infallibility to change, add, or subtract any Christian teaching; this is because Our Lord promised to be with His Church until the end of the world. (Matt. 28:20)."

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 13, 2001.

Response to When was papal infalability declared

Dear JFG, How many times in history has the pope spoken ex-cathedra or where can I find it? Ellen

-- Ellen K. Hornby (dkh@canada.com), June 23, 2001.

Let me begin by saying that the Bishop of Rome began adding and changing scripture when he accepted the books of the apocrypha as true scripture. Infact, no one knows who the authors are of these books. In these books are found the how when and whys to pray to saints, the virgin mary etc.. etc... So when John states that Popes have never added to scripture that is incorrect. Jesus Christ was against praying to idols and statues that cannot hear or respond to prayers. Scripture also states that God detests idolatry! The infalibility was declared at Vatican 1. The Pope is, was and always will be wrong with this so called infalibility when speaking from the chair! For it is written that "all men fall short of the glory of God". And "not one is worthy". You and I have just as much authority through Jesus Christ as does the Pope! Even Christ told the apostles that no one is greater than the other. "the servant shall be the master and master the servant". You see, this whole Papal infalibility and church hierarchy is a human ploy to aquire as much power, wealth and prestige for mans purpose. What would Jesus Christ do if he appeared in the vatican right now? I think he would do exactly what he did in the temple when he whipped and kicked out all the thieves and robbers selling goods in the house of God. They (the church hierarchy) have made the house of God into a pit of vipers! How many lovers, mistresses and little children have fallen victims to papal lusts? Iam a survivor of sexual abuse from Fr. Clinton Hagenbach in Hawthorne Ca. The coverups have been going on for 2000 years! So when John states that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, he is mistaken! The true church of Christ is within each one of our hearts! Who can prevail against ones love for Christ and the Father when it lies within our hearts? This Catholic Church is the GATES of HELL. How many attrocities have been done by these so called men of God in the past 2000 plus years? I dont recall Christ telling his apostles to cover up sexual abuse in his church? The church is not about religon but about relationship with God!

Yours in Christ (not the pope) Cisco

-- cisco (cmalo2@yahoo.com), October 18, 2003.

Cisco,

I am sorry you were abused. That fact suggests that your opinion about the Catholic Church may be biased. You may have a desire for retribution and revenge that is expressed in your ill will for the Catholic Church. Have you tried to forgive and to pray for your abuser yet?

You said, "The Pope is, was and always will be wrong with this so called infalibility when speaking from the chair! For it is written that "all men fall short of the glory of God". And "not one is worthy". You and I have just as much authority through Jesus Christ as does the Pope!

You have no authority either according to your own words. If no one has authority than we can not be sure of what anyone says and we are in chaos. Everyone for themself means total disunity. I bet it is much like that in hell. I hope neither of us ever find out first hand.

In reality, Catholics united to the pope do have authority as revealed in sacred scripture here, Matt 16: 16-19

Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Furthermore we all fall short of the glory of God in that we have original sin at birth and later we are susceptible to sin again. God can work through us in spite of our sins. Otherwise there could be no good in the world anywhere. God works through the pope as a teacher of the flock even though he is a sinner. As he commanded Peter to "feed my sheep" so do his successors feed us, all the way to John Paul II today. If a pope sins or a priest sins, that will not invalidate the promise of having a single teacher, the prime minister to the King, who is "the Rock", so we may be sure how to live right. As you found out by unfortunate experience, if a priest or pope does sin, this often brings more chaos into the Church than if you or I sin, because they are the leadership. And we have seen this in a small minority of priests who have abused parishioners. This can shake our faith. But I will pray for you. May you be healed in the love of Christ and through the power of his shed blood, revealed to us today in the Most Holy Eucharist of the Catholic Church.

-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 18, 2003.

Cisco,

I would be very interested in knowing if you had some of these negative feelings about the Catholic Church even before you were abused, or are they all the result of being abused?

Also, I read this week about you and four other men suing the Los Angeles Archdiocese. The article said that you were raped and molested for two years. I do not want to make your pain any greater than it already is, and I'm certainly not asking for graphic details, but how did this priest get you not to tell your parents or legal authorities? Maybe your story could help boys in similar situations.

-- John W. (nrtlo@yahoo.com), November 11, 2003.