Here We Go Again! (Another Person Went Postal)

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Well I never thought I'd see it happen in my community but it has. This mental case busts into the health and social service building shoots 3 people and kills 2!! Then he goes a couple of miles and runs into a local restaurant and kills the manager and shoots a cook. 3 dead and 4 in the hospital!!! Barb and I frequent this restaurant about 3 times a month. Nevada City has never had anything close to this happen before and is stunned today!!Good grief how can we keep guns away from the violent nuts!!!!!......Kirk

-- Kirk Davis (kirkay@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001

Answers

Response to Here We Go Again!

So sorry Kirk, that's a real tough one. I am always wondering how someone can get so far out there and no one notices until it is too late. I can never remember anything like this when I was a kid and now it seems to be happening all the time. Take care-

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), January 11, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

I have a possible solution, Kirk, but it's an extremely unpopular one. If more states allowed concealed carry permits, maybe some bystander could have taken this nutbucket out before he killed so many. Several years ago an armed man entered a restaurant in Killeen, TX and gunned down several people--don't recall the exact number, but it was something like 10 or 12 innocent people. A sad but ironic twist to this story is that one person inside the restaurant carried a concealed handgun regularly, but did not feel at ease carrying it into the restaurant and had left the handgun in their car. In an interview following the incident, that person expressed regret at not having their handgun with them. Drastic? Yes and no. If you think it would be a drastic solution, think about all the wives, husbands, children, parents, and siblings of all those who lost their lives to a single madman.

-- Hannah Maria Holly (hannahholly@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

PS--I forgot to mention a point. I don't think our government or law enforcement agencies will ever be able to keep guns away from the violent nuts. Look at their track record now. Lots of laws but lunatics like the one in your post still get guns. The answer is not to disarm the general public and make them sitting ducks for lunatics like this.

-- Hannah Maria Holly (hannahholly@hotmail.com), January 11, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

You can't, Kirk. I'm sure that with his history it would have already been illegal for him to have a firearm. Doing more would still not stop him, but it would enormously inconvenience legitimate gunowners - probably to no effect. By definition, if criminals are using firearms, then a little matter like a law isn't going to stop them.

Believe me, I know - I've seen it first hand. After the "Port Arthur massacre" in Tasmania, they made it illegal to own self-loading firearms in Australia (and pump-action shotguns as well), and enormously tightened up on firearm registration and shooter's licensing. Latest figures just out show it hasn't made one blind bit of difference to firearm-related crime: still running at about the same rate per 100,000 of population as before; and firearm usage at the same proportion of murders (vs things like knives, bludgeons, frozen legs of lamb, etc.). Hasn't had any effect on the rate of firearm use in suicide either. Only thing that has dropped is accidental death, and that was already in place - they'd earlier required locked heavy-duty theft- and child-proof storage, with ammunition stored similarly but separately: they just tied it more tightly to registration and licensing.

I suspect that the "assault weapon" ban, if made to refer to that style of military firearm that developed after the Korean War, when the design of military and hunting firearms diverged, might have some effect. It's marginal and I can't prove it, but I believe that particular military styling attracts the crazies to an extent, and if they weren't moved to have a weapon with that style and those capabilities, then they wouldn't be able to use the weapon they didn't have. Mind you, I'm not saying the capability - at least as far as "semi-automatic" firearms goes anyway - shouldn't still be available - just in civilian-style packaging.

The USA has over twice as many murders per 100,000 population as Australia. I suspect the difference is because Australia has always tightly controlled handguns - there are hardly any in the civilian population, and you always required a licence and a good reason even when longarms weren't controlled. Seems to work as a means of restricting the availability of firearms to criminals, but it is an enormous imposition on all law-abiding shooters. We can get by, but it's difficult. However, here I don't NEED a firearm for self- defense. If I were living in the USA then I would, for sheer self- protection, be vigorously defending AND exercising MY right to bear arms. As always with any of these crazies, if they'd run up against someone armed and prepared, the story would have been different.

I guess that's all you can do. Given a large number of firearms in circulation, and given that your nation is founded on the basis of having firearms available; then it seems to me from a distance that all you can do is exercise your constitutional rights and be prepared to defend yourself as the occasion arises.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

How awful Kirk. I agree with the above posts. I have a permit to carry and I DO carry a concealed weapon...my children (some are city yuppies) find this both frightening and hysterically funny at the same time. I refuse to allow a "nut" to fire at me or anybody else without a fight. Crazy people have been around a very long time and they use any weapon that comes to their minds...several toddlers have been murdered with baseball bats by other kids..people are stabbed every day..ban knives and baseball bats? uh uh...Guns are scarier because the nuts can fire several deadly rounds into a crowd and unless the folks also are armed, they are defenseless.I believe this is a complex problem..a combination of lack of mental health access to the non-insured, the closing down of state-run mental health hospitals, the proliferation of drugs, the easy access of guns illegally, the legal importation and sale of assault weapons, sanctioned by the government, the constant saturation of media with violence, the glorification of self and the ineffective wimpy Justice department.Part of the solution???? Confirm John Ashcroft, get a permit to carry, and pray alot. God bless.

-- Lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

Have you ever seen the movie " Red Dawn".? When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.My sister-in-law still carries the old bumber sticker, no-one ever raped a .38, and she means it to this day!However, my family lives about a bjillion miles out of town, and we have loaded rifles at every door, but if we lived where this stuff was going on.....hell, what am I saying, we would Move, and not having that option, we would WALK SOFTLY AND CARRY A BIG STICK!!! Kathie

-- Kathie in Wesrtern Washington (twinrosefarm@worldnet.att.net), January 12, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

Over the holiday period in Roanoke, Va there were 11 homicides. 7 of the killings were the result of one girl's many relationships with men that esculated thru several families by revenge. 4 of the killings were by women using knives.

So, do we ban girls, relationships, knives, guns, families, or holidays ? It's funny but God's idea was to ban killing. I'm in favor of banning holidays !

Without exception, everytime this sort of thing happens than someone wants to go after the kind of weapons I own. Full Auto Assualt Rifles ! Even though none of them were used in any of these incidents. That is an unprovoked attack on my property and you wonder why one day a man climbed a tower and killed as many people as possible. People kill people and they usually have a pretty darn good reason for it.

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

I'm sorry, Kirk. It's hard when vilence strikes real close to home.....but people will do evil things sometimes. I think everyone should carry a gun. That way they would be able to protect themselves. I still contend that Jefferson was right. "An armed society is a polite society." But again, I'm sorry for the fear and frustration you feel.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), January 12, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

I agree with Joel !!! Too much leisure time, everyone to the salt mines. An oppressed society is a docile society.

Here in Arizona it is legal to have fully automatic weapons, yet you rarely hear, if ever, of someone committing a crime with one. Owing a gun should require training in how to use it effectively.

-- JLS in NW AZ (stalkingbull007@AOL.com), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

Hannah Maria, that deal at Lubby's Cafeteria in Killeen you are referring to left something like 21 dead. The lady you referred to who left her gun in the car was a chiropractor who's parents were both killed in the incident. She was so angry abut being afraid to carry her gun in the restaurant that she ran for state senator and was elected and she was one of the legislators who drew up the concealed handgun carry law that's in effect in Texas today. I'm sorry I can't remember her name.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

I heartily agree with the answers above. I grew up around guns and have always had them. The more that guns are taken away from the average law abiding citizen the more crime escalates. A mugger, rapist, shooter, etc...no matter how crazy...might think twice if they knew that more than likely their victim would have a way to defend themselves. If the laws that are on the books now were actually enforced we would have plenty of laws in place. My ex-hubby is a federally licensed firearm dealer. He gets to run those oh so fun background checks. He has had people turned down for buying a gun and he reports it. Absolutely nothing was done by law enforcement! The gun laws that have been enforced lately are nothing but a way to make buying and owning guns harder for the average person. Oh and of course a way for the government to earn more pocket money and be able to say that they are tough on crime....hah! Wanna keep the nuts off the street?...build more jails...and don't make them cushy resorts either. I think inmates ought to have work to do. Meaningful work will make a person feel better about themselves no matter who they are. My favorite bumper sticker: Gun control means using both hands.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), January 12, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

I agree with Joel, people kill people. If we make guns the culprit, then by the same reasoning we need to also outlaw cars, due to the number of people killed by cars driven by drunk, drugged, angry, reckless, negligent, ignorant, irresponsible, mentally ill or otherwise incapacitated drivers. This subject is a timely one for me.....my father called me last night to tell me my older brother nearly lost his life Wednesday night. My brother, who lives in California, is severely debilitated due to numerous back, neck and knee surgeries. He can no longer work and is barely able to get around. He lives alone in an apartment, and being lonely, invited a new neighbor he'd just met, in to visit. After a few minutes of watching tv and a little conversation, this guy suddenly went berserk and attacked my brother, beating him badly and repeatedly throwing him across the room. Fortunately someone heard and called the police, or my brother would likely be dead. As it is, he is hospitalized with severe injuries and broken bones. It turns out this new neighbor was living under a false name, was wanted by the FBI, and was high on drugs, which apparently was the cause of the attack. No gun involved, but my brother came close to dying just the same. Due to my brother's physical condition, I doubt being armed would have helped him. However if the neighbor had been armed and trained, the attack could have ended a lot sooner.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), January 12, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

My answer is probably less popular than anyones and probably never going to happen but.. I believe if we had swift executions after someone was convicted of a murder or other heinous crime and it was a public execution i.e.,hanging on the grounds of the county court house where the the person was convicted I think things would be a little different.

I guess for me now the only thing I can be satisfied with is that I know I am saved and when I die I know where I am going so now or later is all the same. But I do wonder about the people that are killed in these crazy actions. I think this is good proof that Satan is alive and well in this old world.

-- Artie Ann Karns (rokarns@arkansas.net), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

We need to ask: Why are we so violent? Why is this nation, which is so generous and caring and respectful, and smart, so full of violent nut cases? If you think the answer is lack of religion, then why are other countries, which are just as say, Christian as ours, not even close in the statistics of violent acts in relation to the U.S?

What kind of culture generates so much unbridled anger? What kind of culture tolerates it? Just ask yourself: What is different about the United States? Start with concepts like high technology, free time, too many choices of things, drug addiction...etc. Then go from there. Why do we have gangs?

I really think WE DON'T CARE. We just react when we hear about this stuff, and then move on. Think about it. What have you done in YOUR community to improve things? Do you give to charities? Do you work with youth? How much do you personally care? Do you watch out for the kids in your area? Do you work at schools? And then think how many individuals there are of us doing/not doing the same. This is a collective YOU, directed to everyone and not Kirk specifically.

I'm very sorry to hear about this. But WE are all responsible to help fix this.

-- sheepish (WA) (rborgo@gte.net), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

Uh Sheepish, you seem to think the United States is the most violent country in the world. Try to tell that to some folks in Colombia or Uganda or Bosnia or South Africa or Haiti or some of those other places.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), January 12, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

I seem to recall that when there were only four people on this planet, there was still a brutal, senseless murder. It seems our generation is far from the first to experience the shame of brutal unprovoked attacks on humanity. And what did God do ?

He did not ban weapons ! He did not execute Cain ! I think if we strive to serve God than we must follow his example. Bury the dead, banish the murderer and love the sinner--yet abhor the sin !

-- Joel Rosen (Joel681@webtv.net), January 13, 2001.


Response to Here We Go Again!

Ok Joel here we go, I live in calif and a few years back we had a nut open fire with a asault rifle and gun down many children!you dont use asualt rifles for hunting, If you miss with a regular rifle the animal has a chance to escape, why not give people the same sporting chance? Assault rifles have no reason for being, how many times must you shoot something before its dead?

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), January 13, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

I've considered the possibility of freely available guns - but strict (and I mean strict control of ammunition. Must sign for it and wait for a background check, getting only enough for what you need it for (hunting, family protection) and being made to account for bullets used befor getting more (new technology would make tracing the "signer" for used ammo readily traceable. Freely available ammo at shooting ranges, for law enforcement, and military (including Nat. Guard). This way, should we the people need ammo, we know where to go and loot it(!) to fight off our gvt., or whatever, and we would have a small, but lethal quantity at home; however, it would make it exceedingly hard to use a gun for anything but its "appropriate" purpose. Of course, there's more to this idea than this skeletal brief, but you get the gist. All the ammo you can shoot, you just can't take it home!

-- Soni (thomkilroy@hotmail.com), January 13, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

How ignorant.

-- Joe (jcole@apha.com), January 15, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

Yes, I have two loaded guns in my home. Yes,I will shoot to kill if I have to. No,I wouldn't want to. If someone breaks into my home and enters my bedroom, they aren't looking for a cup of coffee. I, a disabled middle-aged woman, all alone, will shoot to kill! Many of my city living friends think I am awful for my attitude, but they do not walk in my shoes! As for the nut cases that are able to get hold of guns that's no hard thing to do. When I was a teenager, over 40 years ago, in the city, guns were available if you knew the right people. Kirk, I'm so sorry this happened. God bless!

-- Ardie from Wi (a6203@hotmail.com), January 16, 2001.

Response to Here We Go Again!

For starters I don't think controlling guns or ammo will do anything but leave us vulnerable to a dictatorship. The criminals know how to get them no matter what the law says or does. Even sane people who own guns legally go crazy from time to time.

We just got news the other night that one of the kids that my husband coaches at the YMCA and team mate of my daughter was shot along with her mother by the child's father. The authorities have no idea why he did it. Their life seemed to be going well. Health, job, marriage seemed fine, no history of mental illness, and retirement already prepared for at age 50. I sat next to this man at the last basketball game of the season the week before Christmas joking and telling stories. They seemed like a nice family and they had been on our team many times by request. We parted with a Merry Christmas and see you at soccer. No one saw this coming.

I guess my point is that the laws really don't help one way or another. People are going to do what they are going to do. I would venture to say that if this man were going to do this and didn't have a gun he would have used some other weapon. It's just horrible the things people do to each other sometimes.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), January 16, 2001.


No, I don't think the U.S. is the most violent country in the world. But I take no pride in the fact that we are fourth, or eighth, or even twentieth, for that matter.

We (my husband and I) own guns. I don't think owning a gun makes a person violent (duh...) I do however, wonder WHY we as a country are so violent, GIVEN that we aren't fighting revolutions, have drug cartels in our face all the time (maybe we do, I don't know), have revolutions, etc., that some of the other nations that Joe mentioned have. We, as a nation, seem to think that we are peace-loving and civilized. But that is not being demonstrated in situations such as Kirk mentioned. So I am just wondering why. And my answer is that we really don't care if we as a country are violent, or not. Doesn't bother anyone, of course, unless it's one of your loved ones or in your neighborhood, or it's you...

I don't think not having guns is the solution to stopping violence. But I think stopping the violence would be a better way to protect Second Amendment rights, long-term.

-- sheepish (rborgo@gte.net), January 16, 2001.


"Guns don't kill people, people kill people." So don't give people guns! We live in a sick society -- you wouldn't leave a bunch of razor blades handy in a mental ward, would you? I've seen the change in a society when guns become commonplace (in Pakistan, when thousands of guns so generously donated to the Afghans by the US were siphoned off on the way.) They ruin community and people are less safe, not more -- and the "haves" are strengthened against the poor. The gun becomes the arbiter of power. There is a saying in the Indian subcontinent: Jis-ka danda, us-ki bhans. Which translates to whosoever has the stick, has the water buffalo. When the stick becomes the gun, the same power relations happen, only more so. you ask how can we keep guns away from violent nuts -- the problem is that at any time, any of us can become violent nuts. Without a gun, we can only get as far as nuts.

-- snoozy (allen@oz.net), January 16, 2001.

I think we will never stop being a violent nation unless we start teaching our children not to be violent. It starts when they are little. If they don't get punished for fist-fighting, then they are confident about going to more violent methods of fighting. They just hear, "oh well, boys will be boys". When there is no penalty for using violence, then they just go on to more violence. Education on how to treat each other when they are children is the only way this will stop. There has to be penalties for misbehaviour. Instead, we have a permissive society that accepts violence instead of condemning it until it is at the very violent stage. Then everyone gets outraged and wonders, "gee, what happened?" When I was growing up, we were not even allowed to yell at our siblings. My parents would intervene and tell us when we were ready to discuss the situation in a civil manner, then we could come back out from our bedrooms, but not until. I find any kind of violence intolerable. Having said that, at the same time, I was also taught that defending myself was okay but doing so with violence was only a last resort. Words were the first course of action, i.e. talk myself out of the situation. I have studied karate and know I can defend myself with violence if it became necessary. I also know that I could kill a person if they were coming at me with murder in their eyes. But I don't have an aggressive bone in my body. But, I was taught that behaviour by parents who believed in setting limits. Until parents teach their children not to be violent, we will have to live in a violent society.

-- Colleen (pyramidgreatdanes@erols.com), January 18, 2001.

The person committing this crime should be taken out within 24 hours of his rampage and have the same thing done to him, i.e., he should be shot. It should be televised live by all the major networks. Justice delayed, as we love to do in this country, keeping all these murdererers on Death Row for ten or twenty years while they file 23 appeals, is justice denied.

-- Fred Taylor (fjcoalco@webtv.net), January 18, 2001.

If there were ever 4 people on the earth and one was killed then there would be no problem. We would all be inbreed so bad that we could not even feed ourselves.

You have to remember that was the known world and that means very little.

This sort of thing happened in the city all the time back in the 50's but since it was in the cities no one paid attention. Now it is in the subburbs

-- Nick (wildheart@ekyol.com), January 19, 2001.


Violence starts from people with no morals, people with no morals are from crappy parents. People should wait to have kids until they are ready for it. Taking away guns is not the answer- guns aren't the problem its just a simple solution for the morons. This country was only made for the religous and moral people

-- mike o (turkeymoe@hotmail.com), February 20, 2001.

"Without a gun we can only get as far as nuts." If you really think that you had better pray every night that you never encounter a "violent nut". As I said before on another thread,If someone has made their mind up to kill or greatly harm someone else, not having a gun is not going to stop them. They will find a knife, or a club, or an axe or whatever and take out as many people as possible until they are stopped. I have read that most violent criminals today prefer knives over guns, because knives are cheaper, easier to conceal and quieter than guns. And in most crimes that involved a knife, the knife used was a common kitchen knife rather than 1 of those big bad switchblades or anything else fancy. But tell me, when was the last time you had to wait for a background check before you bought a kitchen knife? And have you ever heard some anal retentive liberal whining about how we need to ban steak knives? I sure haven't

-- Ben (b_dowell10@hotmail.com), October 04, 2001.

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