abortion and miscarriages

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

St. James and Mother Mary, pray for us!

I have been talking with my roomie about the Catholic Church's stance on abortion. She asked me if, since we believe human life worthy of love and respect begins at conception, what the Church says to do in case of miscarriages. For instance, should we hold funerals for them? And if we don't, why don't we? Babies who were born get funerals. ANd she asked if, say, a woman playing softball fell and damaged the baby so that it died, is guilty of anything (manslaughter in particular). Please help me out! My roommate, by the way, is a very sweet, loving person, who is trying to understand me and my religion.

-Hannah

Sweet Jesus, have mercy on us all. Help us know your will and follow it.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), January 23, 2001

Answers

Jmj

Hi, Hannah.
Your roommate raised good questions:
1. "Should we hold funerals for [babies who are lost to miscarriage]? And if we don't, why don't we? Babies who were born get funerals."
The Church does indeed have a special form of the Mass to be used after a miscarriage. A funeral Mass that is celebrated after a baby or small child dies is much less for the little one (who has never sinned) as it is for the grieving family. A funeral for an older child or adult is both to hasten the deceased's entry into heaven (if need be) and to console the family and community. Here is how a great pro-life leader, Judie Brown, answered a question similar to yours last year:
"The Sacramentary [the Mass book seen on a Catholic Church's altar] has a Funeral Mass for a child who died before baptism. In a footnote, the following statement is made: 'In the general catechesis of the faithful, pastors and other ministers should explain that the celebration fo the funeral rites for children who dies before baptism is not intended to weaken the Chirch's teaching on the necessity of baptism.' This is so because the text states that 'funeral rites may be celebrated for children whose parents intended them to be baptized but who died before baptism.' Here is the prayer for the child who is stillborn (which would include miscarried children as well): 'Lord God, ever caring and gentle, we commit to your love this little one, quickened to life for so short a time. Enfold him/her in eternal life. We pray for his/her parents who are saddened by the loss of their child. Give them courage and help them in their pain and grief. May they all meet one day in the joy and peace of your kingdom. We ask this through Chirst our Lord. Amen."

2. "if ... a woman playing softball fell and damaged the baby so that it died, [was she] guilty of anything (manslaughter in particular)."
Under the secular law, I'm pretty sure that she would not be prosecuted. There are probably no written laws against this (because sports are legal activities), and no one would want to make life any more painful for the mother anyway. Legally, the situation would be different if the baby died because the mother did something illegal, like using dope.
Under the moral law, though, a Catholic mother in your question would undoubtedly be examining her conscience. If she had not received a doctor's warning against playing sports, then she would be totally innocent and at peace in her conscience. But if she had been told by a doctor that she could endanger her baby's life or health by playing, her conscience would probably lead her to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

May St. James and Mary, the immaculate mother of Jesus, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 23, 2001.


Greetings hanaa: Hannah why not talk to Jesus about it. He is yoru saviour, he warned us that no immoral person will enterthe kingdom of heaven. Do you read your Bible? If not why, God word say that if we have his word in our hearts we might not sin against him. A slave to sin doesnt know Jesus. God wants us to love others more importantly to spread the gosspil about Jesus Christ-Being a reliogous person wont save you-there is none rightouess no not one-not by works that a man may boast its by grace that you have been saved.

-- Alex is saved (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), January 23, 2001.

Dear John and Alex Jr. :

Thanks, John, for answering my question. I am sure my roommate will be interested in learning what the Church has to say on the matter. I myself was relieved to learn it. When she brought up that question, while I never questioned the wrong of abortion, I worried that the Church might only support a fetus' worth when it was an active matter of killing. I was afraid that I might have to defend a Church that did not practice what it preached to others. How foolish I was to ever doubt! I still have so much to learn about being Catholic, and I thank you, John, for helping me out.

Alex thank you for your kind concern. I do in fact read my Bible. I am reading the whole thing right now, from front to back. I had before only chosen the books that interested me the most, like Jonah, Judith, the Gospels, and Paul's letters. I am finding it a good challenge and useful to my understanding of the NT to read the OT books-- even, and especially, the ones that are hard for me to appreciate, such as Leviticus. Whenever I get bored, or unappreciative of a "dry" part, I remember that, to the Jews, those books were the most precious thing they had. If God bothered to inspire the authors of those books, if He took the trouble to tell the people all those laws, if Jesus bothered to quote them and teach from them when He walked this earth, then I should certainly bother to read and respect them. I'm letting you know how I feel right now, reading the Word, because you obviously care so much about the Bible and people's progress in it. Now, I totally agree with your last couple sentences, which say that only by grace will we enter the kingdom of Heaven. I don't think you'll find an informed Catholic layperson or a Catholic priest who disagrees with you there! I appreciate your concern for me, Alex, but you didn't really answer my question. See, I was asking about one of the Church's practices, not a moral issue. While it would be great if every time I had a factual question, Jesus appeared to me and answered specifically and in detail, I do not have that gift. So, to learn what Church teaching is, I have to rely on sources available to me, such as the Bible, the catechism, my priests, and, lately, this website. But rest assured, when I am feeling troubled, I do pray for guidance, and search God's word for inspiration. God bless you, Alex.

-Hannah

Blessed Mother of God, pray that we may grow closer to your loving SOn, our Savior Jesus Christ. St. James, please pray for us. Help us spread the word of God, as you did, without fear.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), January 23, 2001.


Hannah, first..you seem like a very nice person. :) Second, personal experience. I've suffered through 3 miscarriages in my life. The last was about six months ago. Those that know me here can tell you what a terrible time that was. But I was concerned about baptism, etc. So, when I felt that our time together was growing short, I took a long, hot shower and cried for our child. I stood there in the water and took a handful. I blessed the water in the name of our Lord and poured the water over my swollen stomach. I named our child and asked God to see him safely home. There were many, many people praying for us, as well. Here on this board, family, friends, strangers. The next morning, he was gone. It was a painful, horrible experience that lasted about two weeks total. Labor and delivery. All at home. I didn't have the courage or strength to look. So, our child didn't get an actual burial. But the next week, a Mass was said for our child. And he has been remembered in a few since. Also, in the second miscarriage, I was completely unprepared for that one. I had given birth to two healthy children so, I didn't foresee any problems. I had alot of guilt over that one because I was under extreme stress and although they said there were medical reasons why he died, I felt that it was my fault. A common feeling, really. Also, when I was in the hospital, before the D and C, a nurse came in and said she saw that I was Catholic and wanted to know if I wanted a priest to come see me. To perform last rites. I was going through pure hell, in pain, anguish, unconsolable, angry because they put me on the maternity floor and I had to sit there and listen to other women around me giving birth and then hear the babies crying....so, in my grief, I cried out why?!?!?! He's dead already. What good would it do NOW????? My husband had to see the nurse out and then help calm me down. Later, I wish I HAD seen a priest then. But hindsight is 20/20, they say. Chris Butler (and others) assured me that what I did on my own in the last miscarriage was the right thing to do, under the circumstances. So, I feel better that that was at least done. Anyways, sorry this ended up so long. It's nice to meet you, Hannah. Take care and God Bless.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 23, 2001.

Dear Jackie:

It's great to meet you too! Thank you for sharing your story with me. It really touched my heart. God bless you, and all your family. I hope to meet you all some day in Heaven.

-Hannah

Sweet Mother Mary, pray for your children. Dear St. James, pray for us.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), January 24, 2001.



Jackiea: Please don’t think me bold, presumptuous or disrespectful, but your story touched my heart. I can’t even begin to imagine the pain you must feel as a result of miscarrying three babies. In Genesis, we learn that pain, suffering and death is inherited from Adam and Eve; but why God does not choose to intervene at times like these remains a puzzle. Eventually, we will be given all the answers; but it seems to be little consolation in the here and now. I will pray for you and your family.

The one consolation you can take from this, I feel, is that in my opinion, your babies are virtually guaranteed a special place in the Kingdom of God and permit me to tell you why. While the Church does not have an official position on where those without baptism who perish go, it is abundantly clear to me that infants who have not yet reached the age of reason have a special place in our merciful Lord’s Heart. The God I know is a kind, loving, merciful and just God. I disagree with what Eugene said in another thread (refer “Mother Teresa” ) concerning the requirement of Baptism. He said, “He (God) wants all men to be saved, therefore all must receive His baptism.” There is a subtle implication here (I am sure Eugene meant no offense in this regard, for he was speaking of those not willing to be saved) that only those who are baptized will be saved. I believe our Church teachings, our Catechism and our Sacred Scripture clearly tell us otherwise.

Casey stated (refer “An Invitation”) “The Catechism teaches that: "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation." Pg. 320, #1257" He has taken this reference out of context as evidenced by the very next paragraph in the Catechism. Casey neglected to mention any reference to paragraph 1258 which clearly shows there are exceptions to requiring Baptism for salvation, such as Baptism of Desire. Jackiea, I would discount any perspective Casey offers, he has demonstrated in the past, that his “selective” cut & paste techniques do not auger well for unbiased open debate. I can point out many references where the Church states Baptism is required for salvation, but in each case I can also point out where the Church has made provision for extenuating circumstances.

Concerning Baptism of Desire, we are told in Scripture, "He that loveth Me, shall be loved of my Father: and I will love him and will manifest myself to him." And again: "If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him." (John 14) Since these texts declare that justifying grace is bestowed on account of acts of perfect charity or contrition, it is evident that these acts supply in the place of baptism as to its principal effect, the remission of sins. “Perfect charity” or “contrition”! What could be more contrite than “pure innocence” found in a mother’s womb?

“Dominus Iesus” a recent declaration issued by Pope John Paul II, tells us that those who through no fault of their own, have not known Christ, (this certainly includes the unborn) receive a special mystical grace that allows them to join the “mystical body of Christ.” It quotes the Second Vatican Courncil, “All this holds true not only for Christians but also for all men of good will in whose hearts grace is active invisibly. For since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery”. Clearly, you don’t have to be “officially” Christian (baptized) to be saved.

In the hereafter, we are told, there exists three dimensions: Heaven, Hell and Purgatory. The Church has never officially acknowledged a place where the un-baptized go after death, sometimes loosely referred to as Limbo for lack of a better word. Catechism of the Catholic Church tells us there are two types of sin: Original and Actual. We know there are two types of Actual sin, Mortal and Venial. Our faith teaches us God predestines no one to go to Hell and that for someone to be banished to Hell a willful turning away from God (Mortal sin) is necessary (CCC 1037). For a sin to be Mortal full knowledge and deliberate consent must be given (CCC 1857). We are told, “Original sin is called 'sin' only in an analogical sense: it is a sin 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act.” (CCC 404). Original sin does not have the character of willing consent that Actual sin does it is merely a deprivation of original holiness and justice bestowed upon Adam and Eve but lost through their disobedience to all their descendants (CCC 405). It is a stain on all descendants through no personal fault of their own. Since this post addresses Catholics I won’t go into the numerous Scriptural references which support these statements found in the Catechism.

Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the Kingdom of God (Luke 18:15-16). St. Augustine told us, in The City of God, that “temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before the last and strictest judgement.” Scripture says “men die only once, and after that comes judgement” (Heb. 9:27). We know that when someone dies, they undergo an immediate “particular” judgement and will undergo a final or “general” judgement at the end of time. As for purification, St. Luke tells us we “will not get out till you have paid the last penny” (12:59). From these words, we know temporal punishment must be served in this world or in the next (Purgatory). We also know that judgement is immediate. However, souls do not remain in Purgatory forever, the Church believes quite the contrary. At the very latest, at the end of time, Christ will return and at that point the “dead shall rise first” (1 Thess. 4:16), Purgatory will cease to exist and Christ will reign forever with His faithful as the long-anticipated sequel to the General Judgement. Those who have offended Him through Mortal sin will be damned for eternity. Those who have not offended Him will spend ever-lasting happiness with Him.

The innocent unborn have offended no one, especially Our Lord and Saviour. While the Church does not take an official position as to where the souls go who die with original sin, through deductive reasoning, it is crystal clear to me the innocent un-baptized, through the blood shed by the merciful Lamb of God, will inherit the Kingdom of God. Christ died once, for all men, including the unborn, whom the Church acknowledges to have life in them and to be made in the image and likeness of God. Children who perish in the womb are blessed by God in way that we all will only realize later when the fullness of Truth is revealed to us. We can take consolation in their departure in the solace that God wanted these beautiful children now rather than wait until later. How beautiful they must be if our maker cannot wait to spend eternity with them. How privileged they are to be called to holiness at such a young age and how blessed are we to have been in their holy presence, albeit for such a short time.

St. James and Mary, Our Blessed loving Mother, protect and watch over all the unborn until Our Almighty Father calls each to His loving bosum, and continue to pray for each one of us here on earth!

God bless,

Ed



-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 26, 2001.


A rich and consoling post, Ed. You're the greatest.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 26, 2001.

I can't add anything better to what you others have advised Hannah; and I wish her luck in settling doubts her roomie might bring up.

To Jackie, let me say: As I understand the nature of God, He is infinite Love. Make what you like of this, nobody can prove me wrong, and the Church never has pre-supposed what God can Will, in His Infinite Mercy. His Divine Will makes all the difference.

Since He loves YOU, with a doting Father's love; He'll grant you whatever you ask Him in faith. Ask Him to bring your babies into His Kingdom. Say, ''In Jesus' Name I beseech Thee, Almighty and Eternal Father; give my departed children, who never saw the light of day, and not for any fault--give them Life Eternal in Your Glorious Presence. So that, on the last day-- before my King and Judge, Jesus Christ, I can be united with them again, to give Glory to Him! Amen.

Dear Jackie-- Say many prayers, and remember Jesus said to us, ''With God nothing is impossible.'' If others object, Yes-- but if they died in original sin? Just say in your heart: My Father in Heaven baptised them as He heard my cries, because He loves me! Then have faith.
Ciao, Jackie! Be happy, because God knows you and loves you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 26, 2001.


Dear Jackiea,

I can't express how much my heart grieves your loss. I ask our Lord,Jesus to put His perfect loving arms around you, and hold you so close to Him.

Remember what Jesus said in Matthew 18:2-4...Jesus called a small child over to Him and set the little fellow down among them, and said, "Unless you turn to God from your sins and become as little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. Therefore anyone who humbles himself as this little child, is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven." That tells me that Jesus found little children to be sinless. Your babies are with Jesus.

As for "Original Sin". We are all born with a bent or propensity to sin . But we can't sin till we know what sin is. Just like in Genesis 3....Adam and Eve didn't know about sin till they ate from the "Tree of Conscience, giving knowledge of Good and Evil.

Love, in Christ, Susan

Hi Hannah,

Since this is " Sanctity of Human Life Week " , the radio station I listen to had a special guest. His name is Dr. Bernard Nathanson. He was a former Abortion Doctor. I don't remember the whole story, but he decided he wanted to see what actually happens during the abortion, so he had one of his fellow abortionist film the whole procedure. I can't describe it to you because it is just too horrible. But you can check out his web site. He made a video called "The Silent Scream". These two doctors have not done another abortion since they saw what actually happens. I pray for an end to this abomination.

In Jesus name I pray. Amen

Susan

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 27, 2001.


Ed, Eugene and Susan..thank you for your comforting words. Eugene, you made me cry. :) Yes, I truly believe my little ones are in Heaven and with the help of God, I will see them one day. Susan, I used to be very pro choice. Until I saw the Silent Scream. After viewing the pictures and seeing that film....I cried and wanted to vomit. I think if more people saw that, they would be less quick to scream women's rights. God Bless and thanks again.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 27, 2001.


Amen, Susan and Jackie! I had the honor of hearing Mr. Nathonson speak. His story is really amazing. I wish more people would learn about the horrible truth behind abortion, that they would stop hiding behind false, idealist words, and dare to look at the ugliness of the lies of the abortion industry. Abortion, though a "right" is still so much of a mystery in this country to so many people. The abortion issue right now makes me think of slavery-- in fact Mr. Nathanson compared it to slavery. Pro-abortion advocates talk about the "right" to choose, just as pro-slavery advocates spoke passionately of "states' rights." Well, legal rights are not "rights" at all sometimes. Whites never had the right to own slaves, though the US laws said they did for some time. Sometimes I fear that these innocent, helpless babies will obtain their rights even more slowly than the slaves did. I mean, a baby is totally helpless-- it can't write great poetry, or speeches, or campaign across the country, or run away to Canada. I pray that God make their rights known to our legislators and open people's minds to the Truth. Jackie, God bless you. I hope I am lucky enough to go to heaven and meet your wonderful family there.

-Hannah

St. James, pray for us. Mother Mary, pray for us.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), January 27, 2001.


Women like you, Hannah and Jackea, who moralize and ram your own "faith" down the throats of others, are traitors to your gender, and to women everywhere all over the world who are burdened with no birth control, no access to abortion, and live in miserable conditions of poverty because they cannot find safe, legal abortions.

Try having 13 or 16 babies before you're 40 and get back to me about how you wanted to "vomit." Look at the conditions these babies and women are living in, the horrible indignity of screaming poverty and disease and filth and pain and suffering, and tell me how you want to "vomit."

-- Try Poverty, Ladies (of@spirit.com), February 03, 2001.


I do not ram my faith down other peoples throats. The thought of an innocent child having his life taken from him does indeed make me want to vomit. I will not now or ever apologize for that. Children born in poverty is a very horrible thing...yes. But that child at least was born and given a chance. Can you honestly justify late term abortions? Where the child is pulled from its mother's womb until only the head is left in and then a needle is inserted into the base of the skull and it's brain is pulled out. Or how do you think it would feel to have salt poured into an open wound on your arm? Would that be pleasant, do you think? The fetus has no skin..no outer layer to protect it. And in some instances, a saline solution is injected into the womb and the baby literally burns to death. Is this humane? Is this acceptable to you? Do you think the woman who used abortion (five of them!) as a means of birth control was right in her actions??? If we were to follow your way of thinking, then why not just kill the women who are having these babies born into poverty? Get to the real root of the problem! Why not? Wouldn't that solve the hunger crisis??? According to our constitution, we are all under the right to have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Why does this not apply to the unborn? Who will protect them? I lost three of my babies...THREE!!!! And I gladly would have them with me if I could! There is so much talk of womens rights. What about a childs rights??? Do they not have the right to be born? To live and breathe as you and I do? Life is not a choice. Life is a gift. A precious miracle. You should be thanking your lucky stars that your mother didn't feel the way you do. Or you wouldn't be here spouting this rhetoric and advocation of murder! Take a good long look at this site and tell me that doesn't make you sick. http://www.silentscream.org/ Go on. I dare you.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

Well spoken, Jackie!
Try Poverty is of the mistaken impression that children can be treated like a disease; cure it by cutting it out. If that's true, then we have lived in a plague now since the beginning of mankind!

You said it all much clearer than I could, Jackie. LOVE is the correct answer!

Charity is the word for love, in the Holy Bible. Charity is what God IS.

Our Lord asked a rhetorical question, in one of His discourses with the disciples. ''When the Son of Man returns, will there be any charity left in the world?''

A mother's love for her baby is nothing but the strongest POSSIBLE love! When this love, a mother's --love is disappearing from our society, the reason for Jesus' strange question is so apparent!

Worst part is, abortion, at least in the U.S. is not the ''escape from squalor'' Try Poverty is lamenting. By and large, it is the most popular form of birth control! Women that want their sex without responsibilities are mainly the ones that scream for abortion on demand. They are the movers and shakers of the movement. Poor girls are hardly what they worry about. Much less ''YOUR MORALITY''--
God bless you, Jackie! I'm proud of you!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 03, 2001.


Thank you, Eugene. That's very kind of you. Obviously, it's something that just gets my goat, so to speak. You know, my exhusband wanted me to abort our second child. We already had a six month old child and well, to be quite honest, this second one was not intentional. So, he pressured me day after day. In my eighth month, he left. I told him over and over, we're married. And if we're having sex, we're responsible for our actions. We weren't morons. We knew where babies came from. But he said he was ready for the responsibilities of being a husband...not a father. Wish he'd thought of that BEFORE! So, I was a single mother of two babies. Living in poverty. Near homeless. Living off the charity of others. And busting my rear working to put food on the table for my children. Receiving no child support. No help from their father. But we made it. It was hard and tough and stressful but we did it. By the grace of God. And because I chose life, I now have a beautiful, vibrant six year old little girl.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.


I just wish that every pro-abortion woman in the world could read that two-message exchange between "Try" and Jackiea (plus J's follow-up to Eugene). I think it would utterly change the world.
I so admire you for your courage to speak up when truth and human rights were being trampled -- and for putting your words into action too, Jackiea. You have not just "talked," but "walked the talk."
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 03, 2001.

John is right, Jackie. I won't argue the point, but you say the baby you conceived wasn't ''intentional''-- and I say it WAS. It was a person in God's eyes, before all time! Don't ever forget this Jackie; whenever you look at your baby. She was planned by God Himself, trust me!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 03, 2001.

Thank you, John and you're right, Eugene. She did have her place in this world before I ever conceived her. I'm sure you know what I meant was it wasn't intentional on *my* part. But just because I didn't mean to get pregnant, didn't mean she didn't have the right to come into this world. For all my faults...I truly believe my greatest achievement in this world and my reason for being here was having my children. My role in life is mother. It's one I cherish.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 03, 2001.

poverty,

If you cause an unwanted or unbearable complication in my life, can I kill you? I you answer no, please tell me how the rules change when the victim cannot defend themself?

Tell me that.

-- Try Abstinence (commonsense@humanity.com), February 04, 2001.


-

That's right!

A helpless creature without any voice. If it's crushed it must just return to dust! But let us hurt a single dolphin, and whole armies come to its rescue. This world has become as my dear mother-in-law says: ''Ca-ca is on top now!''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 04, 2001.


St. James and Mary, Our virginal Mother of the Human Race, let the of Jeremiah echo through every human being until the great evil of abortion has been eradicated.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

And of course, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 06, 2001.


Moderation questions? read the FAQ