Jackiea:

Mary can't answer your question. Her faith was obtained by memorizing a book. If you want to make it to heaven, to be "saved" I'll give you the short of it! Be imitators of Christ! Live the life of Christ heroically! That's what is means to be "saved". We are all called to holiness. We are all called to be saints. The one purpose in our lives is to someday be re-united with the Father. To be holy means to be free from all sin and the stain of sin, to be purified or sanctified, to be one with God. How do we do that? We live the life of Christ heroically, here on earth that's how. To quote Mary's Bible here are some guidelines for starters. "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6). Sola scripturists love this quote because it doesn't involve work, simply declare your love and you have a free pass. The Sacred Author warned us of these individuals, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me;" (Mark 76). You have to "walk the walk"!

Secondly, Christ performed "good works" while on earth. "So his fame spread throughout all Syria, and they brought him all the sick, those afflicted with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, and paralytics, and he healed them." (Matt. 4:24). Work is enobling, "good works" for Christ is sanctifying, not only for yourself but for the living and the dead! When you help someone else, you are helping Christ, therefore, since you are in Christ, in union with Him, you are helping yourself; you are helping every single person both living and dead, for if they are living in Christ and you are living in Christ than you are one with them. To be sure we understood this, Jesus went further and told us, "Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'" (Matt. 25:45).

Work goes back to the beginning of time. "And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done" (Gen. 2:2). Be imitators of God!

God bless you,

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 25, 2001.

Eugene, John and Ed...thank you. Gosh, I must admit, that was kinda frustrating. Why Mary wouldn't just come right out and give me an explanation for her words is beyond me. The reason why I was asking those questions was not because I have doubts, etc. It was simply because I know someone that does that sort of thing to me. "Oh, you really must come to our church. You'd love our minister. We don't call him father. We are brother and sister to each other. He's so wonderful. He's all in your face just tellin it like it is. Do you believe? Do you have Jesus in your life? Why I was saved a few years back and oh it's been wonderful! There's none of that sitting and standing crap in OUR church. Hmph! Too much exercising going on there, if ya ask me. Why, our preacher just reads straight outta the Bible. It doesn't get much plainer than those words right there, no sir! We don't have all these RULES imposed on us by OUR church, no way! We just follow our Bible and believe! I mean, don't you realize that having all those statues around is breaking the first commandment????" And it goes on....but she never can answer my questions. So, I thought I would bring them here. *sigh* Alas, I don't think they CAN be answered. I just don't see how there can be this difference when you both believe in God. Maybe I'm being naive. Oh well......thanks again, you guys. You, at least, helped explain it a little better and showed me WHY it can't be answered.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 25, 2001.

Jackie

just cause your baptised, doesnt mean you are saved,... not to menched that the catholic way of baptism is totally wrong and unscriptural, misinterrped and has decieved millions, do you understand what " ye must be borned again means" .. what happens in a natural birth?

1. water breaks 2. blood comes forth 3. life

samething with a spiritual birth..

1. justified by faith, except what God done for you are calvery and be baptized in the name of "Lord Jesus Christ" Acts 3:38, for the remission of your sins

2. Saintified by the blood, clean up your life, start living right, feed off of the word daily, read the bible and pray,.. eat his flesh (The Word of God) and drink his blood ( the life that makes the Word live in you)

3. Recieve the baptism of the holy spirit, by praying for it, and letting God quicken that word in you so that the life of Christ can live though you. The more Word is living in you, the more Christ is living in you, thats God back on earth again ( the body earth, the one that you live in thats made of the elements of dust).. i could go on, but i dont have the time right now.. but if you think that just cause you are baptized you are going to haven, your wrong..

-- Dr. Oizo (hpuxor@yahoo.com), January 25, 2001.

.. but if you think that just cause you are baptized you are going to haven, your wrong..

Oh, for pete's sake. I didn't say that. Didn't you read the part where I said what about following Jesus' example and His words? The Ten Commandments, etc. Sheesh.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 25, 2001.

John,

You said "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?". Aren't you forgetting a very important point? We whom are born again, do not live under the law. Incidentally, is there something wrong with your PC?

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 25, 2001.

jackie

i was referring to what you said in this statement >>You must be saved to get into Heaven. Well, to us Catholics, the answer to the first two would be yes. We believe that, right? So, the final part....what exactly do they mean by "saved"? I mean, isn't that essentially what our baptism is? << ---------------------------------------------------------------------- isnt that what you meant???

-- Dr. Oizo (hpuxor@yahoo.com), January 25, 2001.

Dear Friends,
Holy Baptism is a sacrament of the Church, commanded by Christ. He wants all men to be saved, therefore all must receive His baptism. At the end of the gospel of St. Mark, He told the apostles, Mark 16: 16, ''He who is baptised and believes shall be saved, but he who does not believe shall be condemned.'' --It hardly needs elaboration of this phrase. If one never believes, then he won't be baptised.

In Catholic infant baptism, the sacrament is valid not because the Church pre-supposed all infants will believe (after learning the Truth); but because the sacrament in itself gives the gift of FAITH to the recipient. If a baptised baby dies before reaching the age of reason, he/she is taken directly to heaven, saved and in the Holy Faith. That child will have never been ABLE to sin; and mortal sin is the only activity on earth that destroys sanctifiying grace. Sanctifying grace which is infused into the recipient by the same baptism, be it a baby or an adult. Doesn't matter.

An infant (as well as adult) -- at baptism is accompanied before God and the Church by two sponsors, or godfather/godmother. Since the child is unable to speak for him or her self, the sponsors speak for him/her. This is HIS/HER solemn promise to renounce Satan and all his works, and to live for and emmulate Our Holy Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in the life ahead. So, faith IS inputed to the infant, and it satisfies the condition set by Christ, for entry into His Kingdom. Let no one tell you this is not valid-- or that only immersion is valid-- all the foregoing is pronounced valid in the name of Jesus Christ by His Church! No other authority exists on earth! So for ''reformers'' to come forth in the 16th century with claims to the contrary, Christ's own commands are being second-guessed.
Lord Jesus, Let your divine light shine on us all; and the Truth of Your Holy Gospel. Mother Mary Immaculate, Pray for all your Children, Catholics and Protestants alike; St. James, Raise up your arms to Our Saviour, and pray for us! --Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 25, 2001.

Thank you, Jackiea and Eugene, for your moving statements, just posted.

Poor Mary! She wrote: "John, You said 'Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?'. Aren't you forgetting a very important point? We whom are born again, do not live under the law.'"
It was not I who said those words about Abraham, but our dear St. James, who wrote them, approving of the good works that must follow on (i.e., demonstrate) our faith. Perhaps Mary has been taught to shy away from the Epistle of James [too darned Catholic!], as it appears that she was unaware that I was quoting from him. It appears that she was, without realizing it, disputing with the Holy Spirit himself, who inspired St. James to write those words!

Yes, Fr. Martin Luther was recorded as having said (in German, of course) that he would like to take "Jimmy and toss him in the stove." He did not want that epistle to be printed in Protestant Bible editions. How sad!

Thank you, St. James and Mary our mother.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 25, 2001.

John,

"Poor Mary?" How condecending and mean spirited.

James is not saying that a faith without works will send it's owner to Hell. His focus is only on the health of our faith; not on the destiny of our souls.

Ezekiel 11:19...I will give them a new heart and put a new spirit within them; I will remove the stony heart from their bodies, and replace it with a natural heart, so that they will live according to my statutes, and observe and carry out my ordinances; thus they shall be my people and I will be their God.

The new birth is supposed to have a tremendous effect upon the personality because it actually gives born again Christians another nature. Peter is insistent in 2 Peter 1:3-7 that the divine nature should be evidenced in born again people. Goodness, knowledge, self- control, perseverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love. In 2 Peter 1:8-9, he said that any man who does not have that kind of a personality is ineffective and unproductive, has bad vision, and has forgotten who he is.

He too is not saying they are going to Hell. He's only saying that the life of those kinds of Christians sucks and they've totally missed the point of the new birth.

You said "Yes, Fr. Martin Luther was recorded as having said (in German, of course) that he would like to take "Jimmy and toss him in the stove." He did not want that epistle to be printed in Protestant Bible editions. How sad!" I suppose you dug that up on another one of your anti-protestant sites you seem to inhabit and take it as gospel. If you would like me to post a few unbiblical quotes of 'popery' here from anti-Catholic sites then just let me know.

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 25, 2001.

Dear Jackie,
Dr. Ozzio is very cute. He, and Mary Derek say, ''If you think because you're baptised, you're going to heaven, you're wrong.'' and--''Just because you're baptised, doesn't mean you're saved''(I spell it correctly for them), and that's that.

First off, nobody in the Catholic Church says-- Get baptised, Go to heaven. Nor say either, Get baptised and BANG! You're saved.

The Church teaches, properly, as the Apostles taught: Baptism is being re-born! That is what ''born again'' really means in the Gospel--Baptism.

Many think we meant, after Baptism, that's all. Or, after baptism, you still have to be born again. Or, worse yet, Baptism, automatically gets you into heaven. These are contortions of Catholic teaching that Dr,Oizo and Mary Derek THINK, nobody will call them on!

After Baptism, which cleanses all sin away through rebirth into Christ , a Catholic (That is what you are made by Baptism, Doctor) you are still required to keep the Word of God and His commandments, if you want to be saved. *NOT, as Mary seems to infer, on account of the Law of Moses*-- but because Christ said so: Matt, 8:21-- ''Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, shall enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the Will of My Father in heaven --(the commandments of God)'', and ''Many will say to me in that day (of judgment), Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Thy name, cast out devils in Thy name, and work many miracles in Thy name?'' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity!'' (verse 23)/

See, Doc; see, Mary-- You can't fool anybody with that ''born again'' interpretation. All Catholics are born again.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 25, 2001.

Eugene,

I don't believe I mentioned anything about being baptised on this thread. Now that you mention it though I would have to disagree with your Catholic interpretation of being 'born again'. If you would like me to post a full response on why I disagree please let me know.

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 25, 2001.

Eugeney:

Dont speak to soon, till you hear me out! (smile)

You say,.. to be a catholic, you have to be baptized the catholic way.. well, Eph 4:5 says that they are " one Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM"

so that means if you say you have to be baptized this certain way, and i say, the bible says to be baptized this way, and they are contrary to one another, then one of us are wrong!..right?.. right!

The catholic church baptizes in the " Name of the Father, The Son, and of The Holy ghost", and no doubt, you were baptized like that to eguene... and you can find that in Matt 28, if you dont know where that is..

now! Jesus said that in a parable, but Peter had a revelation of the baptism, cause after he recieved the Holy ghost, peter stood up and said," Be ye baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ, For the remission of your SINS and you SHALL recieve the Holy Ghost" .. Acts 2:38... look it up for yourself...

Why did peter say that in Acts 2:38, which sounds contray to what Jesus said in Matt 28...??

Its because the word Father is not a NAME, its a Title! The word Son is not a NAME, thats a title also! And the The Holy Ghost is what it is!

Jesus said in the NAME of the Father,.... Then what is the Father Name? Peter said it in Acts 2:38,.. In the Name of Jesus Christ

Jesus said in the NAME of the Son,... Son is not a NAME.. The NAME of the Son is Jesus Christ!

You hold a position of a Son, eugene,.. but thats not your NAME,.. your NAME is eugene!!

Its simple as 1, 2 , 3, .... thats why one reason i disagree with your church intrupretation of baptism,.. cause your church interprets the Word the wrong way.. they baptis in TITLES and not in the NAME..

and I used to believe that being baptized in the father , son, holy ghost was the right way, until i really really searched it out in the bible and found that NO ONE in the WHOLE bible was Baptized in the TITLES, which is known as the Trinty now!.. in fact, search your on church history.. you will find that the catholic used to baptize in the NAME of Jesus Christ, until AD325 when they establish the trinity doctrine and started to baptize in the TITLES...

When You are baptized in the NAME of Jesus Christ, you are being Baptized in the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost. Cause Jesus represents all of those..." The fullness of the Godhead is in Christ, Jesus"......

Iam not saying these things out of meaness,i just like to get to the point and iam saying them because there true,.. Iam a really nice guy (smile),.. really Iam..

-- Dr. Oizo (hpuxor@yahoo.com), January 26, 2001.

Well, Sir--
You are a Nice Guy, maybe. And you are also incorrect on all points. The Roman Catholic Church is correct. Because she obeys the commands of Jesus Christ her Founder, and that's good enough for me.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 26, 2001.

Dr. Ozio,

I call my kids by all types of nicknames, sometimes even things like "junior" or "squirt". They always know I mean them, just as surely as if I had called them by their Christian names.

John 10

"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me-- 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd."

In John Jesus is saying that the *relationship* between the shepherd and the sheep is what draws the two together, not the fact that the shepherd knows the sheep's names, and uses them. A careful robber might learn of the sheep's names, but they don't follow the robber, not having the *relationship* that they do with their master.

I don't see what you are getting so riled about calling out to your Heavenly Father by his "title" (or relationship with us) Father(like Jesus did on the cross BTW) vs. calling out his *name*.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 26, 2001.

[Prior post deleted. Moderator] This poor guy has mental problems. Giving him a voice in here was detrimental to his sanity. Either that, or he's on some drug. Good Bye, Doctor! Code Blue!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 27, 2001.

[Prior post deleted. Post by imposter verified after complaint. Moderator] --Uh, I guess I understand. (?) Could you explain, Frank?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 28, 2001.

Eugene,
My antennae are up.
That last post (before yours) did not seem to have come from the real Frank (since it had too many errors in it) ... but we shall see.
[I did not see the offensive post of the "Doctor," so I have a hard time judging this situation.]
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 28, 2001.

Eugene,

Just in case it wasn't clear, that wasn't me that posted that. Sorry for any misunderstanding our friend may have caused you.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 29, 2001.

Sure, Frank. I realized it was out of character. But I had to think back honestly and ask myself, ''If Frank was offended, I must have said something bad.''. I did repeat an obscenity which DOZIO used, although misspelled / He said to Israel, don't be a shuck; and I accused him of it, albeit I spelled it correctly. It starts with schm/ and is a well-known Yiddishism. Ozio's offhand tip of the hat to Israel, whom he takes for Jewish. Classy customer, this!

Our Mother Mary, pray for your cyberspace forum; James,Holy Apostle, guide us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 29, 2001.

Hello all,

I've had trouble the last few weeks getting to this site and just dropped by to see what's up when I noticed this discussion and thought I could interject a scripture verse that helps me to understand the relationship between faith and works with respect to salvation.

John 15:11-6

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up and thrown into the fire and burned."

To place this in my words, when we lay down our lives (die to self) and begin to live for Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, we are grafted as branches onto the vine who is Jesus. It is our faith that accomplishes this grafting.

Once we are part of the vine, we shall bear the fruit of that vine as all branches must. Our fruit consists of both the fruit of the Holy Spirit which deals with our nature and character (e.g. self-control, love, holiness, etc.) and our obedience to God's will (i.e. performing the good works that we were created as God's workmanship to do such as charity to the poor, comfort to the sick, proclaiming the Gospel of salvation, etc.). These works flow naturally from our relationship with Jesus and testify to that relationship.

When James said that faith without works is dead, he was referring to the fact that any branch that is not bearing fruit is not connected to the vine and is indeed dead. The life of the vine is not flowing through that branch. How do we know? Because it is not bearing fruit. Jesus said the same thing when He told us to judge things by the fruit.

Mary, the reason I underlined those portions of the scripture was to emphasize the fact that unfruitful branches are cut-off and thrown into the fire, a reference to eternal damnation. Unfortunately, there is a stream of Protestant belief that embraces a "once saved, always saved" approach to salvation and that is a lie. If we are unfruitful, we suffer more than just loss of reward, this scripture clearly tells us that we will be cut-off from Jesus and burned for eternity.

Mary, since you don't know me, let me explain that I am a Pentecostal Christian, not a Catholic. But when I view the life and words of Mother Theresa, I firmly believe that she was in no way trying to earn her way into Heaven and was simply manifesting the fruit that the Vine was bearing in her life. The depth of her works reflected the depth of her love for Jesus, an example for both Catholic and Protestant to follow.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), January 29, 2001.

David,

It's amazing what one gets out of rereading things. This time reading the passage you quoted what stood out to me was,

while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

which made me think of how many extra "leaves & stems" we all carry around with us: pride, fear, worry, anger, etc. that in theory we should be pruning from ourselves. An extension of this would be that ALL of us need to get pruned to some degree, maybe some more than others, but ALL of us.

Personally, I like it when people post Bible quotes to support their posts, I usually learn something even if it wasn't what was intended.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), January 29, 2001.

Excellent point Frank!

Even those who are fully connected to the vine need to submit ourselves to the Gardener's shears for continual pruning, ever being transformed into the likeness of Christ.

Thanks for your insight on that!

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), January 29, 2001.

AMEN ! David and Frank,

I have a hard time memorizing. I have learned so much from posting here. It doesn't take as long to find the verses I'm looking for as it used to.

David, you are right on with that verse. I love it! Thanks!

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 29, 2001.

David,

I agree with most of what you have written. I made no judgement on Mother Teresa, it is not for me to say whether she has gone to Heaven or not.

The view regarding 'once saved always saved' has many scriptures that appear to support it. Consider some of these:

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life." John 3:36

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life,. . ." John 5:24

"... him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." Titus 3:5

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29

"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

"... and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20

Then we have scriptures that appear to support the 'you can lose your salvation' some of which are:

"... work out your your own salvation with fear and trembling". Philippians 2:12

"... but he that endureth to the end shall be saved." Matthew 10:22

"... God shall take away his part out of the book of life,..." Revelation 22:19

And of course John 15:6 as you posted.

Personally I believe that as long as one abides in Christ one is saved. I'm not taking any chances.

-- Mary Derek (mderek@hyome.com), January 29, 2001.

Mary,

I'm very glad your playing it "safe" :-)

It's funny, one of the very verses you quoted, is actually evidence against the "once saved, always saved" belief.

Matthew 10:22 " . . . but he who stands firm to the end will be saved."

Do you see the conditional nature of that promise? In order to be saved, we must stand firm to the end.

Here are a few more to support that.

Hebrews 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first."

Hebrews 6:4-6 "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Hebrews 3:6 "But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast."

Do you see how these scriptures confirm the conditional nature of our salvation and that it is possible to fall away from the faith (disconnect ourselves from the vine) and to lose our salvation?

I hope this helps.

-- David Bowerman (bowerman@blazenet.net), January 29, 2001.

Jmj

Your post "sings" to me, Mary. It contains so much -- including things that you may have not yet realized. Permit me to explain.

You began by saying: "The view regarding 'once saved always saved' has many scriptures that appear to support it. Consider some of these: [etc.]"

You used a "key" word there. The verses "appear" to support that belief. But do they actually support it? How does one decide?

Then, after showing the verses, you continued by saying: "Then we have scriptures that appear to support the 'you can lose your salvation,' some of which are: [etc.]"

Again, the "key" word is there. The verses "appear" to support that belief. But do they actually support it? How does one decide?

I believe that the answer is simple -- but it is not easy for many to accept:
We can know whether to believe "once-saved-always-saved" or "you-can-lose-justification" by relying on Sacred Tradition (which is the Church's living memory of Christ's teachings, with a reliable guide to interprting the Bible verses you quoted), and we can trust Sacred Tradition because it is handed down to us with AUTHORITY, from the successors of the Apostles in the Catholic Church that Jesus founded.

Before anyone has a knee-jerk reaction to reject my proposition, consider the alternative ... Reject Sacred Tradition and Catholic Teaching Authority [Magisterium], and one must either turn to some non-Catholic "guru" (such as an idealized pastor) or one must turn inward and become one's own pope. At some point, one must decide what those various verses REALLY mean (not "appear" to mean) and thus make a choice as to whether or not "once-saved-always-saved" is correct. But, in order to make such a choice, one must claim either (1) personal infallibility or (2) a belief, but a very insecure belief, because of one's admitted fallibility.

I hope that it is now clear that rejection of Catholic teaching authority inevitably brings about this most unsettling and unsatisfying dilemma, while acceptance of Catholic teaching authority leads to tremendous peace of mind and total confidence. It is that peace and confidence which you see expressed in the words of several Catohlics here. We have not the slightest doubt about Catholic doctrines and the authority of the Magisterium.

Now, after all that "theoretical" talk, how about something practical?
As everyone probably knows, Catholics believe that folks can indeed lose their justification (but can also be restored to it through repentance and forgiveness). [Both Mary and David have posted some verses that support this belief.] Catholics believe that "once-saved-always-saved" is not genuine Christian doctrine. What, then, of the verses that Mary quoted as "appearing" to support that theory? I'll take a look at them and add my comments in brackets.

"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:13
[Yes, they had a grasp of "eternal life" because they were in a state of grace. But they still had to "continue to believe" in Jesus. That included, among other things, obeying his commandments in order to stay in grace and in possession of "eternal life." A deliberate choice to break commandments in a serious way expresses a decision not to "continue to believe" in Jesus.]

"He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life." John 3:36
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life." John 5:24
[Yes, but, again, "believeth" does not simply mean admitting certain truths about the Son. Even the devils admit those truths. So "believeth" entails putting that "belief" into action -- namely, in good works and obedience, without which one's faith is shown to be dead and one loses one's justification.]

"... him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37
Amen. He "that cometh" in a living, obedient faith remains justified. But he "that cometh, but then turneth around and walketh" away by grave sin loses justification.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us." Titus 3:5
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
Absolutely! He rescued us from the evils in which we were sunk -- by free grace and mercy, not by our earning. He raised us up to a "justified" state. But only through a "working faith" do we remain there. Being "saved" is not a one-time thing that automatically lasts for ever, but is a process that goes on until death. We can freely reject that salvation by choosing grave sin, even after having been justified.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:29
Again, Amen. But we who say that justification can be lost do not claim that some "man is able to pluck [the 'saved'] out." Rather it is the 'saved' themselves who "wriggle" out of the "Father's hand" by rejecting him and choosing to sin mortally. If a person denies this possibility, (1) he has not been much of an observer of humans, and (2) he rejects the concept of "free will," basically making human beings into puppets. God does not want us to sin, but he allows us to sin, even after we have been justified. We non-puppets do indeed have free will.

"... for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5
"... and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:20
Definitely, he will "never leave nor forsake" us, and he will be beside us "always." But too many of us will leave and forsake him and ignore his presence beside us, even after we have been justified. He does not force himself upon us.

I like the way that Mary ended her post: "Personally I believe that as long as one abides in Christ one is saved. I'm not taking any chances."
However, this raises various questions which she may still need to answer (privately for herself, not for us) ... "How does one 'abide' in Christ?" ... "Is it enough to know all about him, to acknowledge that he lived and died for us?" [No, since even the devils do that much.] ... "What must I do (not just "believe") in order to 'abide' in him?" ... "What laws must I obey, and what good works must I do [or better, allow Jesus to do, working in me]?" ... "Did he place leaders over me to guide me into the ways of 'abiding' with him?" ... "Did he give me spiritual helps, such as grace through sacraments, to help me 'abide' in him?" ... etc., etc.. In other words, Life in Christ is not as simple as it seems that it will be when we are bursting with "neophyte fervor."

St. James, pray for us.
Immaculate Mary, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

Dear Mary, John and Forum:

Every admonition of John's is real and substantial. A good Christian can't be complacent or fall into the sin of presumption. Needless to say, all those verses that Mary finds comforting to her as a Christian make Catholics exceedingly joyful in Our Lord. Who doesn't want the reassurance of God, in His Divine Word? It would be strange if Catholics doubted God's love and His eternal vigilance over us. These passages from God's word are glorious and uplifting. But they weren't written to give a reader the false impression that God makes no distinction between good and evil!

The Church always cautions us: Be faithful to Our Saviour in adherence to the evangelical counsels, love for neighbor, penance and frequenting the Holy Sacraments. These are the everlasting signs of His favor and His grace. We won't find anything in the world to make us happier, nor to carry us to eternal life. We have His promise, and God doesn't fail. I want Mary to know, we believe the truth in these words of the Holy Bible; we haven't rejected any. They mean life to us; and we want her also to enter into eternal life.

With the Mother of God, we shall endure; She is Christ's Soft Side, because He loves her! Pray for Us, Holy Mother! Amen. --St. James, pray for us. Amen /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 30, 2001.

Eugene and cohorts,

BUNK!

Mary not only KNOWS about Jesus, but she is LIVING a real relationship with Jesus Christ. And you know this just from what she has posted on many threads. I admire the her strength and her profound faith in Jesus Christ.

The Catholic church teaches about Jesus and then teaches people to pray to dead people(therefore grieving the Holy Spirit) instead of praying to Jesus - the One who bridges the gap between God and man, instead of praying to Jesus, the one who gave us His Holy Spirit to intercede for us. I hate the way that you have tried to turn her words around. It stinks all the way to heaven. And don't think God hasn't noticed. He sees everything we do. You can show the world whatever you want to. But God sees your heart.

Once saved always saved....right on.

All sin can be forgiven.The keeping power of God is beyond any keeping power.Once you are in Jesus, He holds on to you.

There is only one way to lose your salvation: Blaspheming the Holy Spirit! Luke 12:8 "And I assure you of this: I the Messiah, will publicly honor you in the presence of God's angels if you publicly acknowledgd me here on earth as your friend..9.But I will deny before the angels those who deny me here among men. .10. Yet those who speak against me may be forgiven- while those who speak against the Holy Spirit shall NEVER be forgiven."

Question: How does one blaspheme the Holy Spirit?

Answer: By continously GRIEVING the Him...

What grieves the Holy Spirit?(making Him feel deep inner pain)

1) Treating the Holy Spirits presense lightly.

2) Disobeying, resisting the Holy Spirit.

3) Extinguish the Spirits fire ( making fun of spiritual gifts..prophecy,tongues,knowledge, etc.

4) Hardening our hearts

5) End of drawing( apostasy )

Even Jesus yielded to the Holy Spirit.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 01, 2001.

Susan,-- There are no ''cohorts'' here. There are sincere believers in Jesus Christ.

How does a Catholic believe in Christ?

In precisely the way His Holy Apostles believed. Read the Apostle's Creed, Susan.

How do you abandon Jesus ?

1) Ignore the Holy Sacraments

2) Lure others away from His Church by specious argument.

3) Refer to Saints and Martyrs as ''Dead People''

4) Distort God's Word with sophisms and double-talk

5)Discourage the love of Mary, Our Lord's Holy Mother

Give the Holy Spirit Lip Service

6) Laugh at and despise the graces that Jesus gives us through the Church He founded on earth.

Leave the Church that your OWN ancestors died for.

Even your ancestors are grieved for YOU, Susan. Not only we in this forum!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 01, 2001.

Trying to do some cathing up. This thread has meandered in some very productive directions. But I have to get back to David Bowerman's stupendous post, about 10 spaces up from here.

He gives us a magnificent illustration of the LIFE that is in Christ's Church. He compares us, members of the Mystical Body, to branches living off the Vine, meaning Jesus Himself. I really see the truth in this; of how faith and works are both ultimately required of Christians.

David's feelings for the beloved Mother Theresa also move me. He is true to the grace which the Holy Spirit sheds on his soul. Only if Christians answer the call of grace will there once more be One flock and One Shepherd.

Holy Mother Mary, bless us and pray for us! Dear Apostle Saint James, pray for us all! Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 01, 2001.

Eugene,

You said: "how faith and works are both ultimately required of Christians." Because to you and the Catholic church, Christ's work on the cross was incomplete and His precious blood alone is not good enough for you.

To Eugene and cohorts: Susan has the truth written in her heart from the Holy Spirit and with regard to your church she has "been there and done that" and found it doesn't even remotely compare to what God has given her which is the promise of eternal life and a life on earth that is more spiritually abundant and joyful than anything you could imagine. She speaks the truth, you would be wise to listen to her.

Open your eyes, ears and most of all your hearts before it is too late.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 04, 2001.

If I imagined I could add one iota to the mercy and grace and sacrifice Our Divine Lord Jesus Christ makes available to me for my own salvation I would clearly say so, Steven. It wouldn't be a case of your putting words in my mouth, as you are trying to do.

Not only is Christ's work infinitely holy, salvific and complete-- it is beyond the aptitudes or capabilities of all humanity combined, far more my own. I just refer you once more to the excellent post (about 10 posts up from yours), by David Bowerman. See what the significance is; of THE VINE, Jesus, to our fruits--we are the branches which have life from His life! These are either important to our salvation, or --Jesus was in error.

Those branches that bear NO fruit, (good works, sacrifice, self-denial and prayer) shall be cut away from the Vine that gives them life--Jesus. To be cast into the oven and burned. (All of Chapter 15, the Gospel of John.)

But in no way does this mean I can work out my salvation! Try to be reasonable--

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 04, 2001.

Dear Steve:

We are totally dependent on Christ's mercy, love, and sacrifice. WE can't work our way into heaven. But should we insult Christ by ignoring his good and generous laws? Should we flout our Lord and Savior by disregarding Him in each other? If we are truly followers of Christ, we should want to obey Him. He says to love each other as we love ourselves. He says that whoever clothes the naked and feeds the hungry does so to HIm, and whoever ignores the poor ignores HIm. I know that it is hard to commit oneself to serving others. But the desire should be there, and we must certainly never mock the idea of good works-- that is to deny everything Christ taught us. I do not love my neighbors as myself. I do not have enough concern for the poor. Those are sins, and I am ashamed of them. I can never be so presumptuous as to think I have some "hold" over the Lord-- my faith is nothing to His, my love is nothing to His, my works are nothing to His, my forgiveness nothing to His. I could never say to my God that I "deserve" Heaven-- I know that I deserve nothing from HIm. Did I deserve that He come down from Heaven, unite Himself to humanity eternally, teach, suffer, and die for me? NO! Nothing I can ever do could make me worthy of such love. As a follower of Christ, I am compelled to obey Him. He did good works. He treated people with dignity, and helped them in every way, up to dying for them. To be a "follower of Christ" means exactly that. We must do what He did and taught us to do: help and love each other. Forgive me if I'ce rambled.

-Hannah

Mother of Mercy, pray for us. St. James, pray for us.

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), February 04, 2001.

Hannah,

Of course I agree with you that we must try to do what Christ asked us to do. Salvation has nothing to do with on going good works though. What do these scriptures mean to you?

"NOT BY WORKS of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,. . ." Titus 3:5

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:11-15

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE FOR ALL. . . For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified." Hebrews 10:10,14

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby YE ARE SEALED unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

These are just a few that support what Susan has been trying to tell you. There is of course this truth from the Lord to ponder on too. "Making the word of God of none effect through your TRADITION,. . ." Mark 7:13

Cheers

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.

steve,

without starting the entire debate again (because most of your points have been addressed numerous times on other threads), nice try with Mark 7:13. I fear something was lost in you emphasis, however, since you capitalised all the letters of the word tradition, which should be lowercase all. That same passage is quite clearly Jesus speaking of (Mk7:8) [literally] "human tradition," and not Sacred Tradition. Two totally different animals. Jesus would not have spoken against Sacred Tradition when it didn't even exist yet. Jesus was speaking to His audience.

aaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 05, 2001.

Dear Hannah, and Steve-- There's cause to believe that Eph,4:30, ''Do not grieve the Holy Spirit'', is the apostle's serious warning: Once saved (In Holy Baptism) we have to be free of mortal sin thereafter.

For mortal sin is the only activity on earth that destroys sanctifiying grace. Sanctifying grace (our salvation) is infused into the recipient by the same Baptism, be it a baby or an adult.

Without sanctifiying grace salvation is LOST. This grace is the equivalent of that wedding ''garment'' Jesus speaks of in His parable of the marriage feast (Matt 22:11-14); and notice how that man without this grace was ''Bound, and cast forth into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping, and the gnashing of teeth.'' When Jesus further explains, ''Many are called (saved in Baptism), but few are chosen (those in a state of grace)''.

Yet, in His infinite mercy, Christ has made the Church able, through another sacrament, Penance-- to regain the grace! Our Lord's inexhaustible merits, coming from His sacrifice on the cross keep us our salvation, by forgiveness of our sins.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, folks.
Steven has the unfortunate habit of "selective quoting." To understand a biblical doctrine, one must (1) consider all the verses that touch on the topic and (2) let the Catholic Magisterium, well expressed in the Catechism, be one's guide in the interpretation of all the collected verses.

So I repeat the following (from an earlier post), for Steven's benefit, since he either didn't read it earlier or quickly forgot it.

... from the second chapter of the Letter of our beloved St. James.

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. [JG: But Steven claims otherwise, contradicting the Holy Spirit: 'Salvation has nothing to do with ongoing good works.']
"But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
"You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works ...
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone ... [JG: This is the only place in the Bible where the phrase "faith alone" appears! ]
"For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead."

We Catholics do not believe in "working" our way into heaven! Any Catholic who believes that he can merit salvation by his deeds is committing the heresy of Pelagianism, which was condemned during the first millennium, many hundreds of years before the first Protestant ever saw the light of day. Unfortunately, those who dispute Catholic doctrine here are unaware of the fact that what St. Paul rejected was not ordinary "good works" that demonstrate our faith, but "works of the Mosaic law" that some were trying to use in place of faith.

Following Catholic truth as handed down to us by the Apostles, we believe that one who converts to Christianity has received from God a pure gift of grace that has led to faith. What follows is repentance for personal sins and initial justification in Baptism. [St. Peter in Acts 2: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ... Save yourselves from this crooked generation." And the Rock in his first epistle: "Baptism ... now saves you."]
Following this initial justification, one can say (with St. Paul) that the convert (or baptized infant) is "saved," is "being saved," and (we hope) will "be saved." Salvation is not a one-time event, but a "process" that goes on until death. Then we will arrive at the culmination of the salvation journey, provided that we have remained justified through the "obedience of faith" (Romans 1 and 16) and the works of which St. James reminded us.

St. James, pray for us.
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 05, 2001.

John,

You say "let the Catholic Magisterium, well expressed in the Catechism, be one's guide in the interpretation of all the collected verses". Well I'm afraid that is not feasible for me, as I and non- Catholics don't recognize it. Therefore may I suggest that when corresponding with a non-Catholic that you or any other Catholic not refer to this unholy text. Now no need to flame me for that, I am just telling you how we view the Catechism. All yor arguments supporting it are completely to no avail to us.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.

Steve,

Of course you don't. I tried to say that very thing on another thread. However, while the Catechism is not a holy book (like, say, Acts) the teachings it contains and explains are. Think of it as a concordance (which is not a holy book) of the oral component of the Word (Sacred Tradition, which *is* holy).

The point is, about 500 years ago, some people who fancied themselves scholars started "cutting out" vital pieces of Christianity which had served as a framework and sustenance for the faith for the previous 1500 years. This was wrong and improper. There was alot of bad blood between the new heresies and the Church, and so a smear propaganda campaign was initiated to win over north- and central-Europe. It was largely successful, but the untruths and bad feelings that were born of that conflict are with us to this day. Viewing the pope as anti- Christ, seven books clipped, rejection of trans-substantiation were not part of the protestant movement until Luther really started getting annoyed. From the start, his intent was never to break with the Church. I often wonder if Luther had met with more tactful and less reactionary people, we might have been spared the splintering and fighting of the last 500 years.

aaaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.

Dear Anthony,
You have a guest here that concedes nothing to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Therefore may I suggest that when corresponding with a non-Catholic that you or any other Catholic not refer to this unholy text. Now no need to flame me for that, I am just telling you how we view the Catechism.

No useful purpose is served in proceeding with a dialogue in that context. For my part, the Catechism is an excellent source of Christian truth. This person'r boarding-house reach exceeds his grasp. Let him march to his own drummer back where he came from.

I don't recall he was ever begged to hang around here and spread gloom.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 06, 2001.

I agree, eugene. That's why I eschew using it unless absolutely necessary. However, if you are discounting it (and parts of actual scripture itself) you are not looking in all the places answers are found. Some things only appear in one place. In short, the Church's teaching is based on more than just the small amount of scripture they would deign to recognize. Someone likened arguing strictly on their level to fighting with one hand tied behind your back, but I would say it's more like "tell me how a car works to the last detail, but I reject the notion of the axel. I can't figure out how it moves (of course). Tell me, but you're not allowed to talk about the axel." sometimes, it just can't be done, and our answers must be directed as much to the "peanut gallery" as to the person with the question.

By making an argument with the Catechism you stand a *small* chance of convincing the person you're talking to, but the answers we post are for all who may one day come to this site looking for information. That's why we need to be mindful that all things we print here, both good and bad, will be viewed by those simply looking for answers for a long, long time to come. aaaaa aaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.

John, Eugene, Anthony,

When you talk about being saved are you referring to the salvation of the spirit or the soul? I repeat my earlier posted scripture about the spirit: "Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Salvation comes from Christ through the Church He founded. It's the same Church all the epistles of Paul and the others addressed. The Church and the apostles, from the beginning administered Baptism, a sacrament instituted by Christ Himself for our salvation. --(Matt, 28: 19-20) The same ''Born again'' sacrament of John,3:5

Nobody is ''born again'' without receiving this sacrament.

There are seven Holy Sacraments:

1.) Baptism
2.)Confirmation /Receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit
3.)Penance / Confession and forgiveness of sins
4.)Holy Eucharist / The Body and Blood of Our Saviour Jesus Christ
5.)Holy Matrimony / Marriage of Christians in the Church
6.) Holy Orders / Ordination by bishops, (successors to the Apostles) of the clergy of the Catholic Church & religious orders.
7.) Extreme Unction / Anointing with holy oils of the sick and dying Christian.

All are an integral part of the Biblical and Traditional teaching of Christ and the Apostles. They are all HOLY, because Christ is their author, and His grace comes to believers through them.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

Steve,
Please explain, using other language. I don't understand your question at all.
I don't see how I could make it more clear than what I stated after that long quotation from St. James [the paragraphs that start with "We Catholics ..." and "Following Catholic truth ...]. Maybe if you would re-read that?
Then, if you still are not clear, please mention what is confusing about what I wrote. Please use the word "justification," if you can, because I think that is a key concept. We are probably using the word "justify" in one or more cases in which you like to use the word "save."
God bless you.
John
PS: I won't "flame" you, but I will say that your comments about the Catechism were unkind and unwise, given that you are a visitor to a Catholic forum. You wrote, "Therefore may I suggest that when corresponding with a non-Catholic that you or any other Catholic not refer to this unholy text." The text is not "unholy," and (as Anthony explains) I am corresponding with many more people than just yourself (other readers, present and future).
PPS: Paragraph 1228 of the Catechism touches on the very quotation you just gave (1 Peter 1:23), as it states: "Hence Baptism is a bath of water in which the 'imperishable seed' of the Word of God produces its life-giving effect. St. Augustine [c. 400 a.d.] says of Baptism: 'The word is brought to the material element, and it becomes a sacrament.'" Thus, the first pope, St. Peter, whom you quoted, does not hesitate also to write, "Baptism ... now saves you." (1 Peter 3:21).

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 07, 2001.

Excellent, John Gecik,
If Mr. Vincent were amenable to real and honest dialogue, he might come tounderstand. However:

John, You say "let the Catholic Magisterium, well expressed in the Catechism, be one's guide in the interpretation of all the collected verses". Well I'm afraid that is not feasible for me, as I and non- Catholics don't recognize it.

We should see that an understanding isn't at all what Steve is pursuing out of this. In fact, he's afraid to reach an understanding. His church meetings and ministers long ago poisoned his mind against ''ROME'', and he won't even accept co-existence. Much less agreement with a ''Catechism'' --are you kidding! Why, Steve would go the hell for eternity!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

Eugene,

I completely and utterly reject your notion that salvation only comes through the Catholic church. I feel sorry for you.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

John,

I will explain what I meant by my salvation of the soul or spirit as soon as I can. Unfortuantely I'm at work at the moment and can't spend the necessary time on explaining it right now. Anthony also refers to the Catechism as unholy " Think of it as a concordance (which is not a holy book)".

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Steve,
Accept or deny it; it's the truth. It isn't a ''notion'' of mine, it is Jesus Christ's plan, and His apostles did as He commanded. They proclaimed the Gospel to the nations. This was the beginning of the One True Church.

So, I can say with all confidence, salvation comes in that Church alone which has first proclaimed the Gospel. The Catholic Church. Your denomination is not that church, your Bible is not your Bible. It's the Bible of the Holy Catholic Church, and you have it because the Church brought it into its existence as one Book for the world. If you reject the Church now, you might be saved anyway; for being obtuse and ignorant. But you'll still be benefitting by the seeds of the faith originally planted by the Catholic Church. --Ergo, the Church of our salvation. Jesus' Church. Be obstinate, kick and scream; it won't change what is a fact. Here's the best part: I don't ''feel sorry'' for YOU. I'm happy for the fact this Church preached the Gospel to your ancestors. You may reject it, but that's how you came to find it, even in your heretical version.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

steve, I did not say the catechism was "unholy," but simply not a holy book. There is a BIG difference. Your morning newspaper, your favourite novel, or the menu from which you ordered lunch are not "holy" literature, but I would not call them "unholy" (ie evil), just simply "not holy."

Don't go twisting my words.

aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Eugene,

I repeat I completely and utterly reject your notion that salvation only comes through the Catholic church and I think most Catholics would also.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Eugene, I repeat I completely and utterly reject your notion that salvation only comes through the Catholic church and I think most Catholics would also.

-----

Very well, Steve. You may reject whatever you please. I would ordinarily admire your resolve. But I can't. O ye of little faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

Eugene,

Salvation is through Jesus Christ amd Him alone period.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.

Steve, I'm ready to accept your ''period''. I never meant that our salvation could come from anywhere or anybody else but Jesus Christ. You mislead yourself, if you say I replaced Jesus with the Church; I did not! I said up higher in the thread, this: Without sanctifiying grace salvation is LOST. This grace is the equivalent of that wedding ''garment'' Jesus speaks of in His parable of the marriage feast (Matt 22:11-14); and notice how that man without this grace was ''Bound, and cast forth into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping, and the gnashing of teeth.'' Then Jesus further explains: ''Many are called (saved in Baptism), but few are chosen (those in a state of grace).''

...

And Christ provided in His Holy Church the means to preserve ourselves free of sin and the influences of the world, the flesh and the devil. Period.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.

Eugene,

You are still saying that all those outside of the Catholic church are Hell bound, the Bible does not say that.

-- steve vincent (svvincent@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.

Dear Steve,
It really depends what end of the telescope you look into. I maintain thatevery single soul that reaches heaven and eternal life; (and that includes you, should you persevere) will be there ONLY by the graces the Church is given by Christ for all who believe in Him. You will reach salvation through the Church of Jesus Christ. You say it isn't in the Bible?

Then why did Jesus Christ found His Church? I didn't say you had to belong to His Church, Steve. I said the Church is the only way. Believe it or don't: Every day the Church offers up prayer for you and your churches. The work of the Catholic Church is for all humanity, and Jesus said: Other sheep have I, who are not of this fold (Catholic Church), Them also I must bring and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold, and One Shepherd. (John 10: 16) Afterwards: ''Feed my lambs,'' He said to Peter-- and a 2nd time, again a 3rd ''Feed my sheep.'' Peter was named the Shepherd of Jesus' Fold. (John 21:15-17) Your Church and mine, the Catholic Church of the Holy Apostles.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.

Jmj

Steven,
Where in this forum have you ever come across anything that would lead to this silly conclusion of yours? -- "You are still saying that all those outside of the Catholic church are Hell bound, the Bible does not say that."
No one here ever says anything like that! Please read posts at this forum more carefully! Time and again, Catholics here have said that, not only will some (perhaps very many) non-Catholic Christians be saved, but even some non-Christians -- even some atheists! This is clearly stated in the most authoritative work of the Second Vatican Council (1960s), as well as in much earlier papal and Church documents.

You wrote: "I repeat I completely and utterly reject your notion that salvation only comes through the Catholic church and I think most Catholics would also."
I can understand your rejecting that doctrine, but no Catholic can reject it. If any Catholic does, it is because he misunderstands its meaning. The meaning is not that the only people in heaven were "card-carrying" Catholics when they died! The meaning is that, whenever a non-Catholic is saved, he is saved by Jesus, who sees that the non-Catholic had some degree (small to great) of imperfect communion with the Catholic Church, which (as the mystical "body of Christ, the Head") is Jesus's instrument/tool of salvation. (I know that you don't yet believe that. Catholics have to.)

St. James, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 08, 2001.

steve,

God knows what He sends people to Hell for. However, it is clear from both scripture and historical evidence that the Church is the only denomination of Christianity that still follows the beliefs and practices of the earliest Christians. This is what it was intended for: to guide the faithful and bring proper interpretation to the world. The Church was Jesus' intent. To reject the Church and her teachings is to reject Jesus' intent. Whether or not God will punish such a stain will Hell...I don't presume to know such things (that's what Purgatory's for)...

aaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.

Anthony:

What this has to do with "Mother Theresa" I will never know, however, here it goes!

God does not "send anyone to Hell". He predestines no one for damnation. For this, man is “willfully” the source of his own condemnation (CCC1037). The Holy Spirit can provide guidance,inspiration and revelation (Mt. 11:27) and everlasting happiness (Jn. 1:12; 5:25-26; 17:2) to everyone who accepts Him, but God does not send anyone to Hell.

Your point “that the Church is the only denomination of Christianity that still follows the beliefs and practices of the early Christians. This is what it was intended for: to guide the faithful and bring proper interpretation to the world. The Church was Jesus’ intent. To reject the Church is to reject Jesus’ intent.” speaks volumes to those non-Catholics who visit this forum. Dominus Iesus in referring to the Second Vatican Council on this topic has this to say: “The Lord Jesus, the only Saviour, did not only establish a simple community of disciples, but constituted the Church as a salvific mystery: he himself is in the Church and the Church is in him (cf. Jn 15:1ff.; Gal 3:28; Eph 4:15-16; Acts 9:5). Therefore, the fullness of Christ's salvific mystery belongs also to the Church, inseparably united to her Lord. Indeed, Jesus Christ continues his presence and his work of salvation in the Church and by means of the Church (cf. Col 1:24-27),47 which is his body (cf. 1 Cor 12:12-13, 27; Col 1:18).48 And thus, just as the head and members of a living body, though not identical, are inseparable, so too Christ and the Church can neither be confused nor separated, and constitute a single “whole Christ”... This same inseparability is also expressed in the New Testament by the analogy of the Church as the Bride of Christ (cf. 2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:25-29; Rev 21:2,9)” I have mentioned numerous scriptural references not for your eyes but for those who visit this forum and would challenge these beliefs. Furthermore Anthony, the Lord promised that he would not abandon his Church (cf. Mt 16:18; 28:20)! Amongst all their rhetoric non-Catholics (particularly those whose Churches have been founded within the last five hundred years or so, should challenge themselves to disprove these statements in the interest of acquiring the fullness of Truth or converting us Catholics. But I suspect, that if they did this honestly, there would be a whole lot more Catholics in the world!

With regards to your last comment, the Church is clear about what happens to those who knowingly reject the teachings of the Church and by extension, Christ. Christ often spoke of Gehenna and of those who refused to accept the fullness of His teachings (Mt. 5:22, 29; 10:28; 13:42, 50; Mk. 9:43-48).

St. James, and Mary the Mother of God, pray for us!

Ed

P.S. What is with all the "a"'s (ie. aaaaaaaaaaaaaa)?

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 09, 2001.

thanks alot. and about the aaa's...for some reason my browser likes to clip a variable number of characters from the end of my posts. I don't know why this is, but just putting dots (...) or spaces didn't work. someone suggested that I put some nonsense characters at the end of my posts, and that seems to be working.

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

Jmj

Hi, Ed and Anthony.
Anthony stated: "To reject the Church and her teachings is to reject Jesus' intent. Whether or not God will punish such a stain will Hell...I don't presume to know such things (that's what Purgatory's for)..."
To this, Ed responded: "With regards to your last comment, the Church is clear about what happens to those who knowingly reject the teachings of the Church and by extension, Christ. Christ often spoke of Gehenna and of those who refused to accept the fullness of His teachings."

Just to clarify your response, Ed, for the benefit of others who will be reading this, I wanted to reflect on two words that you used, "knowingly reject." I was a bit worried that someone might read them and wrongly assume that we are stating that all who die as non-Catholics after having "rejected" Catholicism will end up in Gehenna. We don't believe that. The key is in your word "knowingly." Here is a long but crucial quotation on salvation, etc., from Vatican II's "Lumen Gentium," which will clarify the situation (I hope):

----------------- BEGIN QUOTATION ------------
14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.

They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion. He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a "bodily" manner and not "in his heart." All the Church's children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.

Catechumens [note, Fayancie!] who, moved by the Holy Spirit, seek with explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church are by that very intention joined with her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own.

15. The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God. They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ's disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end. Mother Church never ceases to pray, hope and work that this may come about. She exhorts her children to purification and renewal so that the sign of Christ may shine more brightly over the face of the earth.

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related in various ways to the people of God. ... Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. ...
----------------- END QUOTATION FROM LUMEN GENTIUM ------------

God bless you.
St. Isidore of Seville, pray for us. St. James bar Zebedee, pray for us.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 10, 2001.

I wish Steve Vincent and some others would forget their bias long enough to read this (at least the #15 paragraph), and realize why I said; though poorly expressed, that the Church is the only way to salvation. But-- not necessarily meaning those non-Catholics of good will would be condemned. It's all in this document, for anyone who can try to understand. Thank you, John. Excellent contribution!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 10, 2001.