For those who haven't seen this...wanted to let you know about a website. I visited this a few weeks ago and received my Fatima Crusader in the mail on Saturday. Thus far, it's wonderful! Please take the time....http://www.fatima.org/crusader.html

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), January 29, 2001

Answers

OUCH !!!
This really hurts. I was hoping that I would never have to tell anyone this -- especially not someone whom I particularly like.

I hope that was a free magazine, Jackiea, because the Fatima Center (with its "Fatima Crusader") is not a legitimate organization. It's driving force, Fr. Nicholas Gruner, is a deeply troubled priest, who cannot find a legitimate bishop to take him into his diocese.

The Vatican has rejected the "Fatima Crusader" and its false message. The organization and magazine exist to shake up the unwary Catholic faithful with false fears. They have lied for over 15 years, stating that a special consecration has not yet been done. (The pope and Sister Lucia of Fatima herself have clearly stated that the consecration was done in 1984.)

I was blessed to find an Internet site that will give you the whole truthful story about this unfortunate and bizarre mess. [Please use the link below, after you finish reading this.] The site explains everything about Sister Lucia, the pope, the consecration, Fr. Gruner -- and finally the GENUINE priest and organization that you can trust with your very life -- Fr. Robert J. Fox and his Fatima Family Apostolate. Fr. Fox has taken thousands of young people to Fatima on pilgrimages since the 1970s, he has written dozens of books on Fatima, Catholic apologetics, etc., and he has had contact, in person and by letter, with the popes, the bishops of Fatima, and even with Sister Lucia. He is the pastor of a rural South Dakota parish, where I visited him in 1991. But I am nobody. A recent bishop of Fatima went to visit him in that same rectory and blessed the big outdoor Fatima shrine where many people gather on pilgrimage once a year.

This very week Fr. Fox is visiting Mother Angelica's Eternal Word Television Network (EWTN) -- the 24-hour, worldwide Catholic cable network based in Alabama. I saw Fr. Fox offering Holy Mass and delivering the homily this very morning. (I recommend EWTN to everyone. It's not perfect, but extremely close to it. I watch every day.)

I know that it may not be easy to trust me on this one, but I hope that you will. Please pray about it, and contact your bishop's office or the Vatican if you remain unsure. Here is the link.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

PS: I forgot to mention that I do not endorse anything beyond the first seven paragraphs of information at the site I linked above. After that opening information concerning Fatima, the subject matter abruptly changes to discussion of much more recent, alleged private revelations [someone named Cyndi, etc.], about which the Church has not yet spoken. I did not read this section, as it is not of interest to me, and I do not recommend it to anyone. I prefer not to pay attention to alleged private revelations that may prove to be illegitimate.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

Greetings: Gods word warns us about sighns and wonders, if your not saved you will follow the deception of Fatima in any form.Jesus is the only way to be right with God. Please confess your sins to Jesus and he will save you,.

-- Alex is saved are you? (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), January 29, 2001.

Dear John:

I heard that the 3rd secret of Fatima predicted the attempted assassination of John Paul II. Is that true? Is there a site that talks about the 3rd secret? Was it in the news ever?

Thanks,

Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), January 29, 2001.

Yes, Hannah.
This is the best place to go, in my opinion. It tells the whole story, pictures, biographies, narrative of events, text of the secret, etc..

Our Lady of Fatima, pray for us.
St. James, intercede for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), January 29, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

u suck lol hahahahahahhaha im will kill u with a butter knife!!!!!!!

-- fd sde wre (pinkuba_cake@hotmail.cpom), November 30, 2002.

Well now. If I was a stick of butter, I'd probably be terrified right now.

Honestly, who left the moron gate open?? How many times must it be said "kindly close the moron gate behind you so as not to let all the morons in"? But invariably, someone forgets and in slips one or two. Really, people, this is so avoidable. Tsk tsk tsk.

Hehe

-- me (me@me.com), November 30, 2002.

I would like to respond to the message of J.F. Gecik with regard Father Nicholas Gruner. I have absolutly no idea where John gets his information regarding Fr. Gruner. He is a priest in good standing as he has been since his ordination. He has been incardinated by the Bishop of Hyderabad in India. Please explain how, in our society of free speech that the Fatima Center and the Fatima Crusader is considered not legitimate. Father Gruner has every right under canon law to advocate his views on the Fatima message. I would ask John to read more carefully the Fatima Crusader, it is well documented, and he can find no "lies". How did John perceive that Fr Gruner was a "deeply troubled priest"? A good lawyer would call that slander.I would ask John to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Fr. Gruner is suspeded. I can prove otherwise. I am open to further discussion on this matter. Considering the problems in the Church today I become concerned when good dedicated priests are slandered without proof or justification. Don

-- Don Pennell (dpennell@istar.ca), May 13, 2003.

Jmj

Your words, Don, show that you are the kind of person who doesn't care how much evidence is shown, you will ignore it anyway. Therefore I cannot waste any time replying to you. The only way you could have said what you said is by not reading my messages carefully and not going to the first site that I linked, where information is provided about Fr. Gruner. Lest anyone be fooled by you, I present another site where legitimate information can be obtained.

May God bless you with a bit of light, so that you may rise from darkness.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 13, 2003.

He can't.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2003.

The first site John provides gives the mere opinions of the author. The proof of suspension is not presented.

The second website John provides not only does not provide evidence of suspension, but admits that it does not know:

Finally, in recent years there has been a certain lack of clarity regarding the priestly status of Fr. Gruner.... What efforts he is making to settle this matter is not known.

Neither site provides the evidence you seek.

Good, holy, well intentioned priest >>> smear campaign, suffering, meekness... hurt priest, servant of God, servant of His Mother.

The decision is yours to make.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2003.

John, thank you for your prompt response. It is too bad you have no time to debate the truth. As far as I am aware Fr. Gruner has received NO notification of his suspension either by letter, fax, e-mail, telegram or by personal visit from any of his superiors. I believe he has every right as granted to any of us as citizens of our country to appeal. I believe he is doing so under canon law. Pray tell, what has he done that is so greviously wrong to warrant such personal chastisement? Too conservative, does not follow the party line on the second Vatican Council? Well guess what, neither do millions of others. Perhaps you should read a new book out called "The Devil's Final Battle" a real eyeopener. E-Mail me where to send you a copy and it is yours. To quote St Augustine in his letter to Consentius, "What is against truth cannot be just" Regards Don PS John: If the consecration has been done, how come in Russia today, alcoholism is rampant, abortion proliferates, the Russian "mobs" reign unempeded, the expulsion of Bishops and priests, (His Excellency Jerzy Mazur SVD and eight of his priests.),the sales of arms to Iraq and much more. Am I to believe this is all done under the reign of Mary? I doubt not. Read my friend,contemplate, deduct, reason, and finally think for yourself.

-- Don Pennell (dpennell@istar.ca), May 14, 2003.

Don, there is too much of real significance for me to attend to than to waste time on this rubbish. I have been over this junk multiple times here at the forum, and I can't waste a minute more. I am far less interested in Fr. Gruner's canonical status than in the fact that he lies to people and dissents from Church teaching. I wouldn't take any pro-Gruner garbage from you even if it were accompanied by a one-million-dollar check. Are you catching my drift? Good.

I can't believe that I am seeing a message dated May 14 with the word "Emerald" attached to it. I can only conclude that the forum has a new heretic who has adopted an old heretic's pseudonym. It couldn't be the old guy, because he seemed to have barely enough integrity to leave and stay gone, instead of lurking and breaking his word by posting again.

St. Michael, pray for us.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@Hotmail.com), May 14, 2003.

"Don, there is too much of real significance for me to attend to than to waste time on this rubbish."

Translation: "Dang, I wish I could come up with a good response. Guess I'll have to whip out the holier-than-thou attitude instead."

"I have been over this junk multiple times here at the forum, and I can't waste a minute more."

Translation: "Dang, I wish I had some better arguments that'll put these irritating questions to rest. Maybe if I look really busy doing the Lord's work, I won't have to address them."

"I am far less interested in Fr. Gruner's canonical status than in the fact that he lies to people and dissents from Church teaching."

Frying pan >>> fire. You should have stuck to pounding in the canonical status angle. Now you are accusing a priest of lying, and you have no proof. And dissent too.

You would throw a fit if people questioned the Legionaires of Christ in this same exact manner, or were disillusioned by something the Pope said or did... but you have no problems calling a priest a liar. You have said over and over and over that we are not to treat the magisterium in this manner, but when it is makes for a convenient slideshow in your own personal Catholic ViewMaster, you have no problem calling a priest of God a liar and a... a dissenter? ...Over an apparition? Cafeteria Catholics...

"I wouldn't take any pro-Gruner garbage from you even if it were accompanied by a one-million-dollar check."

What you will or will not accept has no bearing on Truth.

"I can't believe that I am seeing a message dated May 14 with the word "Emerald" attached to it. I can only conclude that the forum has a new heretic who has adopted an old heretic's pseudonym."

Heretic is a false accusation that you have never, ever been able to prove; and will never, ever be able to prove.

Because... it aint true. It is not the truth. It is a lie.

"It couldn't be the old guy, because he seemed to have barely enough integrity to leave and stay gone, instead of lurking and breaking his word by posting again."

"Integrity", taken in context here, means agreement with John Gecik.

Unproved allegations, one and all. Argument by attitude.

I've enjoyed being away, and will continue to enjoy being away. From time to time I might enjoy looking in. In a situation where I see that a good priest, a man of God and of good will, is being falsely accused as a liar, I say what I wish, when I wish to alleviate his suffering by sticking up for him. Even if I've never met him.

If this is unacceptable, have the moderator delete it.

There's one reason and one reason alone you don't like to discuss these things. It is because deep, deep, deep down in the recesses of your heart, you know true.

But what's got to be even scarrier for the neodiehards is that there are indications of a turning of the tides, and the newchurch weave is beginning to show signs of unraveling. The return of traditionalism and the Triumph are close.

But don't worry about it, I'll fade away John. I mean, it not like people are interested, are they? Not too many people are really interested. I mean, I'm no idiot; I can see that. Personally, I think it's a damn shame, but there's hope.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2003.

Dear John--I read your response with great interest. I assumed I was about to debate someone with some depth of knowledge and understanding of the subject at hand. However, I was mistaken. You called Father Nicholas a "liar", strong stuff with absolutley no foundation for the remark. For shame. A good debater with some intellectual integrity can do better than that. You call him a "dissenter", again you provide no intellectual repartee to prove your point. It is easy to hide behind e-mail and rant. You won't accept my offer of a book, how closed can the mind of a self professed intellectual be? I, John,am willing to discuss, and debate the topic, but I cannot do so with one whose mind is closed. Thank you John for the opportunity to communicate with you. Regards Don

-- Don pennell (dpennell@istar.ca), May 15, 2003.

I think I’ll jump in here for a minute too, since this is such an important subject and the TRUTH must be told. Plus, I can’t stand to see Emerald (my friend and a fine Catholic) get beaten up on.

“John said: I can only conclude that the forum has a new heretic who has adopted an old heretic's pseudonym.”

Ooooh, this hurts John. I’m sorry, but your comments towards others can be mean. How can you insult Emerald and call him a heretic? I honestly would not have the courage to partake in the holy Eucharist after slandering a fellow Catholic brother’s name and injuring him like that. Especially someone with as much true integrity as Emerald. If Emerald chooses to come back and post here again from time to time, he is not doing anything wrong. Sheesh, by saying he’s “breaking his word”, you make coming back and posting here sound like it’s on par with breaking a marriage vow.

“I am far less interested in Fr. Gruner's canonical status than in the fact that he lies to people and dissents from Church teaching.”

Father Gruner and the Fatima Crusader do not dissent from Catholic teaching. This is a serious accusation (have fun proving it as Don said, and that he was suspended, if you can). Have you ever read even one issue of the Fatima Crusader? My mother gets it in her mailbox regularly, along with three or four other Catholic publications. You know what? When I go over there (her house), the Fatima Crusader is the very first magazine I read/borrow from her out of the whole bunch. It has some of the very best Catholic information and articles I’ve ever seen anywhere. I highly recommend it to all. Take it from a Catholic who actually reads the Fatima Crusader. There is absolutely nothing contrary to sound Catholic teaching in it. As a matter of fact, I first learned how to meditate on the mysteries of the Rosary because of an issue of the Fatima Crusader.

“I wouldn't take any pro-Gruner garbage from you even if it were accompanied by a one-million-dollar check. Are you catching my drift? Good.”

I wouldn’t believe the anti-Gruner garbage being spewed from various sources these days, even if it were accompanied by a one and a half - million dollar check (Ha!). Seriously, I will almost stake my life on the claim that the consecration of Russia has not yet been done according to Our Lady’s requests.

You said earlier: “(The pope and Sister Lucia of Fatima herself have clearly stated that the consecration was done in 1984.)” No, this is false. Vatican official Archbishop Bertone has claimed that the consecration of Russia has been done by the Pope in 1984. The Pope himself has NEVER officially declared in any statement that the consecration of Russia has been done. (Go ahead, prove me wrong. Try and find even one official declaration by the Pope on this matter.)

Oh contraire, this might shock you, but only hours after the 1984 consecration of the world, the Pope -- in front of thousands of witnesses at Saint Peter’s Basilica -- said that certain peoples (i.e., Russia) are still awaiting his act of consecration. Unfortunately, the Pope’s advisors told him not to perform this act of consecration because it would “offend” the Russians.

Sister Lucia has never “clearly stated” that the consecration of Russia has been done either. Clearly stated? Come on. A 95 year old cloistered nun who is under an oath of silence? She is not allowed to speak to anyone anymore on the whole Fatima affair without permission from Cardinal Ratzinger. This is an odd restriction, don’t you think. Why isn’t Sister Lucy allowed to speak for herself? Did you know that she is on record after 1984 saying that the consecration of Russia has not yet been done? Could this conclusion be threatening or embarrassing for some Vatican officials to admit, since they’ve told the faithful that the consecration has already been done? I think so.

The letter you and others keep parroting from the ewtn web site (that is allegedly written by Sister Lucy) has been discredited by Fatima scholars as a fake. The recent interview she did with Cardinal Bertone is half-censured and can also easily be discredited.

Spreading the whole truth about the message of Fatima is so important. Millions of souls are at stake here! The Blessed Virgin is our modern day prophet who has come to warn us (mankind) of an impending disaster if we and Her ministers do not obey Her and Her Son’s most loving requests. Let us pray the Rosary daily so that the true consecration of Russia be done as soon as possible.

“Make it known to My ministers, given that they follow the example of the King of France in delaying the execution of My command, like him, they will follow him into misfortune."
-- Jesus to Sister Lucy

“It will never be too late to have recourse to Jesus and Mary."
-- Jesus to Sister Lucy

P.S. By the way, John. I do agree with your comments (in another thread) about how refraining from public buying and selling, and from unnecessary servile work on Sundays. As tough as it may be for some to accept (I too had problems accepting it for a while), it does go against the third commandment.

-- Robert (robertp234@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

I looked in on this bruhaha, and even though I promised myself that I would not waste time arguing with people who have nothing but air between their ears, I will have my say.

The meanness and venom that Gecik has shown to Emerald and the others has stooped to a new low. Gecik sits among the ruins of V2 and waits for someone to haul him out, while he denies the ruins...... Poor John

I believe that it comes from the frustration of trying to defend the indefensible.

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 15, 2003.

You ''promised yourself''--? Well, then-- take yourself where you are welcome. Don't hang around the ''ruins'' like a plague.

Gecik's comments are not meant as the Word of God. Why are your's??? Must you shoot off the air between your own ears?

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2003.

Dear Moderator,
Can you please delete this entire, new and worthless exchange (all messages from May 13 through 15th)?

I know that you are aware of the fact that this forum had begun to turn over a shiny new leaf, about a week ago. Please do not allow the old muck to be dredged up again.

Thank you very much.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 15, 2003.

Can't let anyone see those old 'schismatics' getting the better of ya', eh Gecik?

-- Isabel (joejoe1REMOVE@msn.com), May 15, 2003.

SEE? It has to take place for anyone to see it. Moderater; this IS a thread that serves no purpose. I hope you delete it all.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2003.

Please delete? Is that all you cry babies can holler? You, both of you, have never, ever, refuted anything said by the traditionals.

Know why? .....because you can't. You can say anything, ANYTHING, about us and our beliefs, and we will NEVER cry about it... or holler,please delete.

Why can't you be men, and defend what you say?

Don't worry though, too much time, and words, have already been spent on both of you...Aghhh

-- Ed Richards (loztra@yahoo.com), May 15, 2003.

He wants to argue. He is refuted ten times over, and wants to know why we don't refute him. Chicken Little. ''The sky is falling!''

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), May 15, 2003.

To those of you who seek some insite as to the Fatima message, the third secret and the consecration of Russia to The Immaculate Heart Of Mary, you should read the book The Devil's Final Battle.Go to web site www.devilsfinalbattle.com This book is a provocative insite into the workings of Rome when it comes to the Fatima message. Study the web site first before you come to a hasty conclusion. It is good to get the mind working and energized. As Ralph Waldo Emerson stated" "God offers every mans (womans)mind its choice between truth and repose". The Devil's Final Battle gets to the truth. Don

-- Don Pennell (dpennell@istar.ca), May 22, 2003.

A glance at the opening of Chapter 16 will tell any orthodox Catholic that the book isn't worth a farthing.
JFG

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 22, 2003.

A glance at the opening of Chapter 16 will tell any orthodox Catholic that the book isn't worth a farthing.

Because...?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 23, 2003.

Again I notice our friend JF Gecik has dismissed the commentary by experts when it comes to the Devil's Final Battle Book. It would appear Mr Gecik hides behind the vail of e-mail, how I would like to debate him in an open forum where he would really have to stand up and defend his views in the public domain. You are correct, he natters away without proof for anything he says. Poor fellow. Don PS No Mr Moderator, don't close this site because of one person who can't hold their own in an open forum.

-- Don Pennell (dpennell@istar.ca), May 27, 2003.