Why not read Gods word and find out if your saved?

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Greetings: Gods word is forever. Were living in times of great deception and the reason is people set aside Gods word and follow mortal men. Jesus is the only way and that should be your greatist concern, lest you hear depart from me I never knew you, you workers of iniquity. By faith in jesus we are saved.John 3:16-21. Knowing Gid is different then being a religius person wich will never save you or give rest to your souls.

-- Alex is saved (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), January 29, 2001


Knowing God in a relationship is different then someone who trust in their religious activities. There is none rightoues no one. Jesus saves

-- Alex is saved (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), January 29, 2001.

There is none rightoues no one, except Alex, of course. Leo

-- Leonardo Gomez (leoomezz@USA.NET), January 30, 2001.

Leo needs EYES to see and EARS to hear.

Alex, I love how you love JESUS!

May God's blessings surround you! In Jesus awesome, powerful name. Amen.


-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 30, 2001.

...and Alex needs a spell-checker.

In Jezus nam wee... In Jezus nam... In Jezus... *Geez*


-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), January 30, 2001.

Craig,.. you need a life! (smile)

-- Dr. TaiChi (hpuxor@yahoo.com), January 30, 2001.

Save , saved , sssssssssssssssssaaaaved , I'm so sick and tied of hearing about the term SAVED. Who cares ! Saving is the job of the savior, not me or you. There is nothing we can do to save ourselves . Its not our purpose in life . (to be saved) That's up to God who He saves . Granted I want to go to heaven . To be with a God I've come to know for his love of me . My Lord Jesus the Christ, who has paid the price , death on a cross so that I may live. What love of me He has. The more I come to know Him , the more I wish to be with Him, and love Him , spend time with Him , laugh with Him , enjoy with Him . The fact that I know He is the Christ is not saving , for satin himself knows this much. To love God so much that we are not concerned about Heaven or Hell is where to stand . If my God whom I've come to know through the Eucharist decides to condemn me to death in hell . So be it. God only knows I deserve it, for all the times I've offended Him . (I'm sorry Lord). I am willing to give up heaven to follow the will of the Son who died for me. I would be willing to try my best to follow His laws, love my brothers and sisters as He loves them . To hand my life over to Him , to do as he pleases. I trust Him. After all he died for us. It's not about Heaven. Its not about being SAVED. Its about loving Him you are with, now, and forever. He is present , body ,blood , soul, and divinity in the Eucharist. He is with me . Though I walk in the valley of darkness ........sorry I was focused on Him and did not notice the darkness. The grace of the Sacraments are bad for that. (missed out on penance) I am not worthy of heaven but perhaps I'll end up in hell. There is not much a man can do for a God he loves while in hell , so I think I'll go do something today instead while I'm still here on earth, and have the chance. Gosh I'll miss Him if I end up in hell .

-- David Amell (damell@usa.net), January 30, 2001.

I am reminded of a story. There was a monk walking through town with a torch and a bucket of water. Someone asked him why he was doing this. He replied, "the water is to extinguish the fires of Hell and the torch is to burn down the palaces of Heaven. And then we'll see who TRULY loves God."

aaaaaaaa aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), January 30, 2001.

David Amell is a mystic; and I have also been accused of that (among many less positive things). I am immensely gratified that David loves Our Lord in His Eucharistic Presence; as I've been priveleged to.

I think I can rationalise the seeming indifference he describes, as to his personal salvation. If it is like mine (remember I'm a sinner, and I haven't denied it) let's say that, during Holy Communion with the Son of God, I feel myself ''immolated''; unable to care for life or death; intent only on Him. He is immolated for us, on the cross; and love demands love in return. Take heart, David. You won't be in hell after this life. Jesus doesn't go there at all; and He wants your love for all eternity!
Mary Immaculate-- Pray for us! Dear Saint James, help your forum disciples; pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), January 30, 2001.


It is obvious to me that David is overcome with the Holy Spirit! This is as close to legible tongues as I have ever seen! I think he is saying he loves His God and doesn't count the cost! If his God deems it necessary to damn him for eternity, he can live with that for it has come from the God he has given His life over to! He is placing all his trust in Him! He has reached the level many of us strive for, "total abandonement in the Eucharist!" His faith is strong indeed!


-- (grader@accglobal.net), January 30, 2001.

Well, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. I never, never want to be separated from my Heavenly Father.

Give me strength and patience, oh God, that I may be as loving , gentle and patient with others as you have been with me. Through Jesus my Lord and hero I pray. Amen.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), January 30, 2001.


Jesus didn't want to be separted from the Father either, but He obeyed Him, and so, the rest as they say is history. He didn't think of Himself, he thought of us! After all, He was the ultimate Christian!


-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), January 31, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.

-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), February 03, 2001.


First I'd like to tell David Arnell that I love how you love Jesus. But, Salvation is a free gift (for those who accept it) the price was paid by JESUS. You don't have to pay for it, He already PAID THE PRICE.

The Eucharist: the Catholic church teaches Jesus Himself, taught transubstantiation. It uses two main passages of Scripture:

John 6:54-55 " He who eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life; and I will raise him up on the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink." Catholics are taught here, that Jesus is explaining how He is literally offering them His flesh and blood, so they may have eternal life by physically eating Him. With just a little study of the whole passage(vs.27-71), it is clear that Jesus was not talking about physical, but spiritual food and drink.

Food is eaten to satisfy hunger. And in verse 35 Jesus says, "He who cometh to Me shall never hunger". Now, Jesus is not promising eternal relief from physical hunger pains. He is, of course, speaking of the spiritual hunger in man for righteousness and salvation. and He promises to those who will " come to Him " that He will satisfy their hunger for these things forever therefore, to come to Him is to "eat"! (see also Matthew 5:6, 11:28, John 4:31-34)

We drink also to satisfy thirst, and again in verse 35 Jesus tells us, He that believeth on Me shall never thirst. "Therefore to believe on Him is to "drink"!(see also John 4: 13-14) No one can say that here Jesus was establishing the eating and the drinking of His literal flesh and blood to give eternal life, for in verse 63 He says, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. " Thus Jesus makes clear what we should be eating and drinking to have eternal life.(see also Matt.4:4.)

Matthew 26:26 & 28: " This is My body...this is My blood." the Catholic church bases it's whole religious system on its interpretation of these two verses. They adamantly teach that right here, Jesus is pronouncing the first priestly blessing that mysteriously changes the bread and wine into His body and blood. The absolute folly of such a conclusion is proved by this one observation: He was literally still there before, during, and after they had partaken of the bread and the cup! He was not changed into some liquid and bread His flesh was still on His bones, and His blood was still in His veins. He had not vanished away to reappear in the form of a piece of bread or a cup of wine!

Look closer at His words. No one can deny here we have figurative language. Jesus did not say -touto gignetai- ("this has become" or " is turned into"), but- touto esti-(" this signifies, represents" or stands for")(the New Testament was written in Greek). It is obvious that Jesus' meaning was not literal but symbolic! And He wasn't the first in the Bible to claim figuratively that a glass of liquid was really "blood".

One time, David's friends heard him express a strong desire for water from the well of Bethlehem. In spite of extreme danger, these men broke through the enemy lines of the Philistines and brought the water to him. When David found out that these men had risked their lives in this way, he refused to drink the water, exclaiming, " Is not this the blood of the men who went in jeopardy of their lives?"(2Sam.23:17).

Throughout the gospels we find similar metaphorical language: Jesus referring to Himself as "the Door", "the Vine","the Light","the Root", "the Rock", "the Bright and Morning Star", as well as " the Bread". The passage is written with such common language that it is plain to any observant reader that the Lord's Supper was intended primarily as a memorial and in no sense a literal sacrifice. "Do this in remembrance of Me" (Luke 22:19).

Father God, You are the One true Holy God, the God who created heaven and earth. I trust You and I rely on Your promises.As a believer, Your born again child,I take the authority that our Lord Jesus Christ has given us over all the power of the enemy. I thank You God for that authority and in that authority, I bind the power of Satan in this forum. In the name of Jesus Christ, the King of King and the Lord of Lords, that this forum be made free of the enemy.Amen.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 03, 2001.

Suasan, Susan!,
In all those 2,000 years did it not occur to you maybe the Catholic Church answered that objection?

Even if-- Jesus' own human presence at the Last Supper had ''disappeared'', to reappear in the sacramental species (bread/wine); a problem of how He can be present in as many as a million separate hosts throughout the world at one time-- each and every Holy Mass-- is a much greater challenge to our meager understanding! Yet, He is able to do anything-- He is God!

The entire cosmos is at His Divine command; and you presume to question the words that come from His own lips? With ''just a little study?'' Your arrogance knows no bounds. The problem you think you pose is merely one of ''extension''.

Matter as you and I know and understand it is obedient to God's supreme command. He can order it to be enclosed in a simple molecule, or extended in whatever form and appearance He wills. It obeys-- because God has the power to give existence to something that never even existed! Such as you, such as me!

Don't pretend to gainsay what Jesus Christ meant at His Last Supper. The Catholic Church didn't invent a theory for anybody. The Church heard His words and believed! Susan, it's something we call FAITH!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 03, 2001.


Did you not notice that I was responding to ED. NOT YOU>). I don't appreciate how you mangled my name either.:>)

Are you aware that Transubstantiation was first practiced by pagan religions? The noted historian Durant said that belief in transubstatiation as practiced by priests of the Roman Catholic system is "one of the oldest ceremonies of primative religion"(The Story of Civilization,p.741.)The mysticism and syncretism of the Middle East were great factors in influencing the West, particularly Italy.(Roman Society from Nero to Marcus Aurelius, by Dill.)In Egypt, priests would consecrate meat cakes which were supposed to become the flesh of Osiris!(an ancient Egyptian god of the lower world and judge of the dead- Encyclopedia of Religions,vol.2 p.76) The idea of transubstantiation was also characteristic of the religion of Mithra whose sacraments of cakes and haoma drink closely parallel Catholic Eucharistic rites.(Ibid.)

The idea of eating the flesh of diety was most popular among the people of Mexico and Central America long before they ever heard of Christ; and when Spanish missionaries first landed in those countries, "their surpass was heightened, when they witnessed a religious rite which reminded them of communion... an image made of flour... and after consecration by priests, was distributed among the people who ate it... declaring it was the flesh of deity.

Are you aware of this? I am astounded.

Lord please draw my family to You. In Jesus name.Amen

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 04, 2001.

I was aware of your anti-Catholicism, Susan. It isn't at all necessary for you to come quoting one of modern history's most atheistic and anti-clerical ''authorities'', Will Durant. Why don't you reach down into that bag and pull out some Marx and Lenin?

I was of the impression you believed in an ''opiate of the masses.'' But now you are in bed with atheists?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 04, 2001.


Are you aware there are primitive religions that DON'T believe in Transubstantiation? Surely that means that the God YOU believe in is false. Right?


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 04, 2001.


So nice to “speak” with you again. I enjoy dialoguing with you for you treat all people with respect although sometimes I do think you come down on Eugene too hard. Please don’t be down on him for messing up your name. It appears to be a typo and I’m sure it was not intentional. It happens to the best of us. In fact Susan, I regret to inform you, it has happened to you. In the very same post you have admonished Eugene for getting your name wrong, you yourself have misspelled David’s name. For the record his name is “A-m-ell” not “A- r-nell”. So you see, even the best of us are not always at the top of our game. Eugene, I am sure you can expect Susan’s apology in the mail shortly!

The second point I would like to address before getting into the meat of your argument is your comment that your post was addressed to me and not for Eugene’s eyes. This sort of comment has come up before, not necessarily with you, but with others, and I have always wanted to address it. It is obvious, by posting your comment with this forum that although addressed to me, you wanted everyone to read it. You were making a statement. Susan, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You cannot post something in a public forum and make rules that don’t allow the public to respond. When you post, in this forum anyway, you invite commentary, both for and against. This forum is a public one, and I for one, feel I have the right to respond to anything posted if I so desire. The fact that a post is addressed to an individual other than myself will not deter me. If you had wanted to converse with me only, you could have e-mailed me privately and given me your opinion, but you didn't do that, did you?

Now, Susan, let’s discuss the origin of your argument firstly, to determine its validity. You are aware of course, other than for a small number of heretical sects, the notion that Jesus was speaking in “symbolic” terms when referring to His flesh and blood, only gained popularity in the middle ages. This in itself, should raise a flag for anyone who is alert and questioning both sides of this issue. Why would our ancestors, (yours and mine), the early Christians, believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) for fifteen hundred years? Why would ALL those who were there with Jesus and who moved forward in His Church after His death, make such claims that now seem so preposterous to you? Was all of Christianity misinterpreting Jesus’ words for fifteen hundred years until God was able to send us a new “prophet” in the form of Martin Luther? Luther by the way, as a Catholic monk, also believed in the Real Presence, until it became inconvenient for him while disassociating himself from the Church. To understand this question better, we must also ask ourselves, what other things did Luther do that has affected the discussion that you and I are having at the present. Well, from history, we know that Luther took it upon himself to remove seven Books from Holy Scripture! It seems all Christians to this point had been misinterpreting Scripture for fifteen hundred years as well. I know it appears I am getting off topic but I am merely pointing out the foundation on which you base your arguments is not very solid. I pointing out the credibility of those who originally put forth your hyposthesis. It is quite evident that if you propose a “new” interpretation of God’s word, you have to establish a difference with what is in existence currently. So what would you do to get attention quickly? What Luther did was to adopt an interpretation of Scripture known as “sola scriptura” whereby God’s Holy Word is taken literally and nothing else matters for purposes of salvation. The first thing to go then, obviously, was the Holy Eucharist for Luther knew this is the foundation of the Church Jesus established. Who would be more apt to understand what Jesus meant, Luther (fifteen hundred years after Jesus) or the Apostles who lived with Jesus? Faith is an integrity, you take it all or you take nothing! It’s absolute! You cannot pick and chose what you like about your faith. The Truth is the Truth! It’s like being pregnant. A woman is pregnant or she is not pregnant, but she cannot be half pregnant!

Baptism brings us into the Church, baptism results in our being made part of the mystical body of Christ, but we all remain infant Christians without the Eucharist. Pope John Paul II says the Eucharist is the “source and summit of our Christian life!” Emmanuel - “God among us”! Christianity without the Eucharist is not authentic Christianity. That is not the Church God founded.

In an earlier post John explained our Catholic position on the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. While his presentation was excellent, I will try to say it another way so that hopefully, more readers will come to understand why, for 2000 years, Catholics have believed that Jesus is with us, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.

The first announcement of the Eucharist by Jesus divided His disciples, just as the announcement of the Passion scandalized them. Jesus was known to admonish his disciples when they misinterpreted His words. He was known to grow impatient with them when they failed to grasp the meaning He was intending. He wasn’t shy about setting them straight when they were in error. However, at the Bread of Life discourse in John’s gospel we see that after Jesus had mentioned His body was real food and real drink, the disciples said, “this is a hard saying” (John 6:60) and many left. Jesus did not say, “Oh, wait a minute, don’t leave, you’ve completely misunderstood what I was saying, I was speaking in symbolic terms only!” No, He didn’t say that, what He said to those who remained was, “Will you also go away?” (John 6:67) In other words, “I am telling you the Truth!” It has been clear for two thousand years, for anyone who has eyes to see and no other agendas, exactly what Jesus was talking about.

The Eucharist is the paschal banquet, it is Calvary brought forth into our present time and space. We don’t re-enact Calvary, we enter into it, we don’t repeat it, we are there, two thousand years ago, on the Cross with Jesus. We enter into the saving power of God! It’s not another sacrifice, it’s the same sacrifice which we enter into and make present. “Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life in you!” Jesus again reaffirmed these words when He said, “You abide in Me so that I might abide in you, as I abide in the Father and the Father abides in me.” When you eat normal food you assimilate it, but when you eat the Bread from Heaven, it assimilates you! “By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ who humbled Himself to share in our humanity” Catholics recognize these words as Truth itself.

But yet, many find it hard to believe. It looks like bread! It tastes like bread! Am I supposed to believe that this piece of bread is Jesus? How do you understand it? Let me set you mind at ease right now! You can’t! The greatest minds in the history of the Church couldn’t explain it! It’s a mystery! But they believed it! We believe it! We don’t walk by sight, the Bible tells us we walk by faith. We walk by that which Jesus has given us, the Holy Eucharist and when we do, we partake in the paschal mystery in a transcendent way in which we are all united in the Body of Christ.

Susan, the Paschal mystery will continue to mystify and no doubt divide, until the end of time. All I can tell you is that to accept the mystery of the Eucharist if to accept God’s complete message found in His Holy Word. I thank you for your prayers for the forum. I too will continue to pray for all who visit here, that they may be enlightened to the full message of God!

St. James and Mary, Our Mother of the heavenly hosts, pray for us!


-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 04, 2001.


Since we don't want any lawsuits for plagiarism brought against the forum, I thought that I should mention what Susan forgot to say. She failed to mention that she lifted from two Internet sites almost all that she left here in her February 3rd and 4th (com)posts.

Most of her first post (the one that says Jesus was speaking figuratively about his "body" and "blood") came from one of a series of tracts [the "Catholic Chronicles"] by a now deceased anti-Catholic evangelical, Keith Green.

Most of her second post (the one mentioning Durant) came from one of the most vile, anti-Catholic sites on the Internet, that of "Mission to Catholics International." I have known for more than ten years of MtCI's founder, ex-Father Bartholomew Brewer (former Carmelite priest). What he has to say and the way he says it borders on the most disgusting I have ever heard in my life. (I listened to him speak for an hour or two on a set of tapes wherein he debated a famous Catholic apologist.) The ludicrous statements he makes about Catholicism told me that he must have attended the worst seminary on the face of the earth -- or that he is a victim of total amnesia. He knows next to nothing about our doctrine -- but he used to celebrate Mass! It is totally amazing. This old man now makes it his life's work (i.e., mischief) to draw good Catholics into heresy. [I wonder if Susan's son is working for him -- or if Bart Brewer is the infallible svengali who is holding Susan under his spell.]

It was clear to me that Susan was not speaking from her own mind and heart in these two posts. First, she had never previously posted anything that purported to have substantive arguments. Second, when she would quote from the Bible in the past, it was from a "modern English" version, not the older version that was present in these two posts. Third, I can't quite picture Susan quoting Greek, as she just did.

In the past, when faced with Catholic truth and apologetics in posts from Ed, Eugene, and others, she has been unable to refute them and she has been unable to defend the Protestant doctrines that she wants to believe. This must have left her with an uneasy feeling. So I guess that she went looking for a crutch, but found only some brittle little twigs in Messrs. Green and Brewer. [I believe that she is disqualifying herself as a visitor here -- according to the Moderator's rules -- by posting Jack-Chick-style hate literature.]

Well, anyway, you can see the sources of what Susan copied-and-pasted on this page and on this page.

St. James, pray for us.
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you.
God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 04, 2001.

David Amell, sorry I misspelled your name. It was totally unintentional.

Eugeneous,( Eugene is a genius on a radio show called, "Adventures in Odyssey". His nickname is Eugeneious.)

I was kiddin' around :>) when I mentioned messing up my name. But my dear fellow, I don't like the reference to being "in bed with atheists). That was truly uncalled for. Will Durant was raised in the Catholic religion, all the way through College. And entered seminary at Seton Hall in 1909. He withdrew later.

Have you read any of Lee Strobel's writing? He's a former atheist. I'm currently reading "The Case For Christ" it's fantabulous!

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 04, 2001.

Now I think I know who ''Some Person'' is. A nice touch, Susan.

You can call me anything you wish. I am not here on an ego trip, and my name isn't sacred. And at least it isn't a pseudonym. My e-mail is real, too. I don't hide; if you wish to meet me some day, let me know.

I received the Body and Blood of My Divine Saviour this evening. Holy Mass!

Dearest Susan: you once described laying on the floor, all rapt and shivering in an ecstatic union with Jesus! --The sweetest time of your whole life!

OK-- Perhaps, why not? I'm glad for you, if it was. I have that meeting with Him every time I partake in Holy Communion; and so do all other good Catholics! Mass and Communion are the norm. Jesus is always here in His Church, whenever we want Him. His love is constant and ever-present.

Too bad that when you were in the Church this escaped your notice. Is it all in the past, now? What happened? A divorce? Bad influences? Don't tell us it was reading the Bible; all Catholics have the Bible. Wouldn't you like to confess? Do it, Susan! Once and for all!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 04, 2001.

I am appalled at what John has just told us here about Susan. Susan you should be ashamed of yourself. For your penance I would like you to say three “Hail Mary’s”. It might just be me, but I sense something different in Susan’s writings and actions from the others who visit here. Usually, when Catholics leave the Church they have been hurt deeply by someone in the Church or have not obtained answers to very serious questions they have asked about their faith. Invariably they start attending other services to “broaden” their perspective of God and salvation and all to frequently they run into some slick-talking evangelist who hasn’t read the entire Bible from cover to cover let alone studied about what other treasures God gave us. The initial rush they receive from a charismatic speaker carries them for awhile, and if he is really talented at his profession, he can hold them for a time. However, invariably, his charm wanes, empty words don’t work any longer and the individual who is searching for Truth moves on to the next “slick talker” with a theory. With each new theory they become more and more confused until finally they begin using other peoples arguments when visiting this forum with the half hope of having them discredited for what they really are: mindless, baseless rhetoric designed to steal people away from the faith. I believe there is something common in all of them. I believe there is an honest desire to return to that faith, the Catholic faith, which made them the happiest at one point in their lives.

Whenever ex-Catholics visit the forum there is always a different slant to their comments. Aside form the hurt, which is always so prevalent, implied in much of their writing is this question, “where are the answers, I’ve been searching for some time now, but haven’t found them?” Invariably too, they have been to three or four churches in search of answers. There is a need for Truth. They are looking for the answers in the same we all have. I know in my case, I was fortunate and had loving nuns to teach me my faith and when I couldn’t find the answers to a question, they showed me where and how to find it. I was very lucky; but many in this room were not, as evidenced by the need for knowledge they display in their writings.

Call me gullible or naive but I have just read someone’s post about how many hundreds of people visit this forum daily and if the Lord can bring just one “receptive soul each day" then it’s all worth it. Susan, as far as I am concerned, you or anyone else are always welcome here provided you are interested in “honest” dialogue and “in your own words”. I don’t have the time to respond to all the posts I would like to, let alone search the Internet to see if all questions are genuine and legitimate and have not been taken from some other Internet site. Tell us what YOU think, tell us what YOU feel, tell us what answers YOU need. Please don’t waste our time with someone else’s work you discovered elsewhere. If you are honest with us we promise to try and find the answers for you. You surely do not visit this forum to share your truth with us for your truth has never held up in the numerous times you have been here, especially those posts where you have used someone else thoughts and words. Doesn’t this tell you something about your brand of Christianity? Doesn’t this give you a hint about which direction you should be going? The Holy Spirit could be knocking you over the head with His knowledge and you are too busy “cutting and pasting” to be listening. Stop for a moment and listen.

St. James and Mary, the Mother of God, pray for us!


-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 05, 2001.


Hello, folks.
I wish to touch on two things tonight.

I. Something made me re-read what I posted 24 hours ago -- about the things Susan copied. I would not withdraw my criticism of her action or of the misleading materials she copied, but this time I have to criticize myself for presenting the facts in a sort of sneering, uncharitable manner. I apologize to all, especially to Susan for doing that.

II. The other thing I wanted to mention was this ... Ed stated: "Usually, when Catholics leave the Church they have been hurt deeply by someone in the Church or have not obtained answers to very serious questions they have asked about their faith."

My friend, there is no doubt that those are two of the reasons that Catholics leave the Church, but there are enough other reasons for which people slip into heresy that I am not comfortable speaking of anything as "usual" reasons.
I have heard at least one famous apologist opine that the single biggest reason for departure from the Church is "doctrine." Most of those cases seem to involve a person who is poorly educated in his faith and who repeatedly hears false doctrine on TV or radio (or reads it in books or tracts). The false doctrine is all too often presented in ways that ridicule (or lie about) Catholicism, making it seem that our faith is anti-Biblical. Then the person gives in to his/her doubts without even seeking a solid Catholic rebuttal.

My own suspicion is that the two biggest reasons for departure from the Church are moral ones: (a) desire to "remarry" after divorce, without seeking a tribunal's Decree of Nullity; and (b) desire to use contraception with "personal autonomy" and "without a guilt trip." I believe that many people leave for these bad reasons, but, knowing in their "heart of hearts" that they have thereby done wrong, they search for something to use as a "better excuse." Thus when they "learn" that Catholic doctrine is "false," that becomes an easy way for them to mask and repress their uneasiness over sinning against the sixth commandment.

St. James, pray for us.
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.
God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 05, 2001.

Eugene C. Chavez,

My e-mail address is real. And I would love to meet you in person. But I doubt that you live in Nebraska. I am not "Some person". I've been posting here since July or Aug. 2000. And I'm surprised that you don't know me at least a little.

You can tell Mr. Gecik for me that he is wrong again:>) My information came strictly from "The Catholic Chronicles". The author, Keith Green, belongs to Jesus..completely.. I trust his heart for Jesus. Read his biography.( also, I did not cut and paste any of it.)

A friend of mine suggested that I read "The Catholic Chronicles". So I did . The same day that I posted what I was truly surprised about. As a child, growing up in the Catholic religion, I always thought of Communion as the Spiritual Body and Blood of Jesus. Not actually Jesus.

Eugene, you and Mr. Gecik have wounded my spirit so many times. I took a chance and shared my story with you, but you both took my heart and squashed it under your heels. But I kept coming back because God wants me here. He is calling someone here closer to him. That person will feel the Holy Spirit convicting him.

I love you all . I know you will slam me some more. So..have at it.

" I lift my eyes to the hills, where does my help come from, My help comes from the Lord, the maker of heaven and earth. He will not let your feet slip, He who watches over you will not slumber..Psalm 121:1- 4 Oh God, YOU are my God, no one else will take your place. Not the approval of man, Nothing. I love You Jesus! Amen.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 05, 2001.

Thank you for the love, Susan. If you feel trampled on, it's your own fault, though. You insist on interfering (even when it doesn't concern you--) and posing ''better alternatives'' to any words by a Catholic here. Myself included. In your vain-glorious posturing is always the subtle intention of raining on the Catholic Parade. Which I admit, is your right. Just go ahead, keep it up! But don't plead innocence, and play the victim. Act like a truly motivated Christian, not like Patty Perfect --

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.



--There are no ''spiritual bodies''; that is a contradiction in terms. What else did you believe that is mistaken?

Your friend in Christ,


-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 05, 2001.


Ah, the saga continues. How sad! Eugene, you are right. Susan's poor spirit is in quite a state, and the worst part is the play-acting that she does in order to generate sympathy. That kind of dissimulation shows an influence of the "Father of Lies." Lord Jesus, help her.

Susan writes: "You can tell Mr. Gecik for me that he is wrong again:>) My information came strictly from 'The Catholic Chronicles'. The author, Keith Green, belongs to Jesus..completely.. I trust his heart for Jesus. Read his biography.( also, I did not cut and paste any of it.)"

We are supposed to read the biography of an anti-Catholic? Chubby chance!
Keith Green was killed in a car crash almost 20 years ago. We hope he "belongs to Jesus completely," but we won't know until we ourselves die.
Eugene, Susan is "in denial." She copied sections of people's writings -- perhaps doing it the hard way, keying it in by hand, rather than using copy-and-paste. By protesting that she did not use copy-and-paste, she shows that she misses the whole point. The important things were not the method she used, but (1) the fact that she made it look like her own work, without giving (dis)credit to the author, and (2) the fact that it was anti-Catholic trash, banned by the Moderator. Susan fails to apologize when faced with those two factual charges.
Finally, I provided links to the Green and Brewer sites. She must not have even taken them! By choosing a phrase from each of Susan's two posts and then doing a quick "FIND" at each linked site, one can see that I was not "wrong." Green and Brewer wrote what Susan copied. [If you look through the pages of the "Catholic Chronicles," you will find that Green quotes from Brewer, sometimes giving him credit in footnotes. I would not be surprised to find that Brewer quotes from Green too. Birds of a feather ...]

Susan stated: "As a child, growing up in the Catholic religion, I always thought of Communion as the Spiritual Body and Blood of Jesus. Not actually Jesus."
If that is what she "thought," then she was not really "growing up in the Catholic religion." She either was not listening (or comprehending) when the truth was explained to her, or she was taught falsely by an ignorant or dissident instructor who did not believe in transubstantiation. Either way, it is a tragedy. Weeks ago, on another thread, I brought this very subject up, after Susan gave a mini-biography -- namely, the fact that she did not have the proper "support system" to help her become and stay a true Catholic. Her family and her teachers let her down.

And that is why I find these new words of Susan so moving and intriguing: "... I kept coming back because God wants me here. He is calling someone here closer to him. That person will feel the Holy Spirit convicting him."
Yes, and "that person" is Susan herself. God is "calling" her "closer to him" through our words about Holy Communion and other subjects.

We are not here to "slam" her, as she fears, but to give her the "tough love" she needs to snap out of the dream world into which she has slipped. Her brand of Jesus-and-me/Sola-scriptura/Once-saved-always-saved "Christianity" is nothing but an addictive drug, and the addiction is hard to break. (She is even so intoxicated by the "drug" as to believe that she has the power to "exorcise" this site.)

Let us not give up praying for her.

Santa Susanna, virgin and martyr, pray for your namesake.
St. James, pray for us.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 06, 2001.

Dear John,
If she learned all her backward beliefs in ''My Sunday Visitor'', it still doesn't excuse her. Yes, she's in denial, and hardly one post of hers is more than canned sentiment.

I feel bad, because I'm to the point at which I no longer wish to reply to her. It stirs me up, though, to see her congratulating Israel for his off-the-wall posts. Not in one instance did he post a statement of any substance; only ridicule and shameless babblng, and Susan gives him a high-five! And he wasn't even in agreement with her--he was simply blustering at the Catholic Church. That was what appealed so much to Susan, evidently. ''Thank You, Israel, for your won-derful post!!! Pandering to that pathetic character! Yes, and she's going to ''bind Satan'' for us! Good grief! HA HA!

Message to Susan: Dear Susan, after Satan is bound up by your charms, come back here in the forum, pick a thread and read it. Don't bother to make comments for at least 2 weeks, please. After that, all will be forgiven, OK? You're in Purgatory for the rest of February-- We are giving your opinions up for Lent! Goodby!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 06, 2001.

Mr. Gecik, and Mr. Chavez,

You are right about ONE thing. God put me here, partly for me. I learned things about the Catholic religion that I didn't know. But the most important thing I learned is that I don't want any part of it. It is definitely not for me.

I choose Jesus Christ................

I feel very, very sorry for you both. I forgive you and I pray God will forgive you.

(there is NO purgatory)

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 06, 2001.

Lady Magistro,
You came back like the bad penny? Why do you think you've ''learned'', when you never learn?

You may not believe in a Pugatory; but it doesn't depend on your belief. It depends solely on the Will of God.

Others here also choose Jesus Christ, Susan. Or do you have exclusive rights to Him? The main difference is, we here accept His teachings, given us by His holy apostles. You prefer to ignore the teachings, the apostles and His holy Church. Then you feel sorry for us ? Well. I guess you think if you accept His Church, you can't ''choose'' Jesus. Not very smart, Dear Susan!

Holy Mary, pray for the Church and her children; Saint James, pray for us! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

Susan, Let me start this by saying I'm not going to "slam" you. It isn't my way....well, not unless we're talking abortion and then, I get a tad pushy. As evidenced on another thread. I hope you know that I am genuine in my questioning. I pray you know that. I'm going to paste your post here and then I'll ask...."You are right about ONE thing. God put me here, partly for me. I learned things about the Catholic religion that I didn't know. But the most important thing I learned is that I don't want any part of it. It is definitely not for me. >>>

Ok, now my question here is...is it really not for you because of these "things" you've learned or is it the "slamming" you have received? It is obvious this has upset you greatly and I know from experience that a thing like that can drive you away from the Church. And so, is it the teachings of the Church or the people or what? What specifically has turned you against Catholicism?

"I choose Jesus Christ................ " Um, ok...so do we, we being Catholics. I say that because you've made it sound like this...*I* choose Jesus Christ...as if the rest of us don't. Could you explain?

"I feel very, very sorry for you both. I forgive you and I pray God will forgive you.

(there is NO purgatory)" Ok, now here...I'm curious as to how you came to that conclusion. How do you know for a fact...so as to say with such certainty...there is NO purgatory...that there isn't? Yes, you could use the example of "How do you know there is a God? Answer: Well, how do you know there isn't?" but I'm wondering how YOU came to that conclusion. Did someone tell you that? Did you come up with that all on your own? Please explain for me.

I must say, Susan, that you do have such tenacity! :) Others have come here and spit forth such venom and hatred towards us and our Church. But eventually, they move on. Others have tried to argue their points but the arguement falls hollow when all they are doing is using the copy and paste method from some anti Catholic website. Some have tried to criticize us and use simply Bible quotes as their answers when we ask for clarification. But when none are forthcoming, they've left, too. I would venture to say that a person loses much of their credibility when they portray such strong convictions...but then have no real answers when asked WHY they have these convictions. It's kind of like my six and seven year old children. Do you know how incredibly frustrating it is to ask them a question and have them just look at you, shrug and say "I don't know"...especially when it's done over and over and over and over??? So, if you could answer my questions, Susan, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.


I quote the title of this thread, "Why not read God's Word..." But read the WHOLE thing (after all, no one should take anything away from the Word, as people have been doing the last 500 years), as accepted from the foundation of Christianity. Pay special attention to 2 Maccabees 12:46. There you will find rather plain scriptural proof of the intermediate state of existance and purification known as Purgatory. Therefore, if you reject this in favour of BibleLite, then you obviously support "taking from the Word," thereby rejecting its holiness wholesale.

aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Hey, Gene...I'm HTML illiterate...could you take care of this, please?:) Thanks.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Dear Jackie-- HTML illiterate? You were doing just fine. You pose one question to Susan, --Is it being slammed that turned you off?

Let me say, I've had lots of ocassions to slam the lady, and I never have. (She's shocked, or laughing--) She should see me when I'm in that ''mode''. It isn't slamming to answer falsehood with the truth. My constant badgering at Susan to lay off the crocodile tears and bloated sentiment is unfair, I realize. For that I do apologize. I must seem very intolerant to everybody.

Your style's similar to Susan's, very feminine and warm, but with no grandiose demonstrations of ''grace''.

I sincerely desire Susan may obtain plentifully the graces of Our Lord. If she's been given them while worshipping God so superficially, it only shows us God's immense mercy. More power to her! Imagine the graces she would call down were she to truly embrace the Holy Gospel, as Jesus gave it to us. Her spiritual growth might rival any Catholic saint's! Let's pray for her. It's not too late and *the Church of her ancestors* is waiting for her faithfully. As we in the Immaculate Heart of Mary/Saint James' Catholic Forum are!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 07, 2001.

Oh, Eugene, I'm sorry I didn't make myself more clear. :) I was asking if you could turn this italicized writing off. Thanks.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.


Not to move the thread away from its current spellbinding discussion, but on the kids, by seven year old daughter could come home from school for a *month* and not have done anything there by her account! My wife and I almost have to sit on her to get her to talk. It's a good thing that they assign her homework every day, or we'd never know what was going on.

On the plus side though, her class just made their first Penance, and they got to choose which priest they wanted to go to. She said, "Father X, because of his accent people can't understand him, so people probably won't go to him and he'll be sad". I was (and still am) very proud of her for that, and have tried to put in a special prayer for her for it.


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 07, 2001.

Out of the mouths of babes. :) The only way to keep our two year old quiet in church happened quite by accident. She was peering over the back of our pew one day and saw the large crucifx hanging on the back wall. She saw He had his head down and said ssshhhhh...Jeshush go nite nite. :) So, now, if she gets a little rambunctious we just remind her to be quiet, as Jesus is sleeping.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.


In 1439, the Council of Florence proclaimed the doctrine of purgatory a dogma. This was made up by man ...not GOD.

Maybe you should read "The Catholic Chronicles".

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.


You were wrong again. Keith Green was killed in a plane crash. He wrote the most beautiful songs to the Savior, Jesus Christ.

You might be thinking of another awesome Christian singer/songwriter, Rich Mullins. He was killed in a car accident a few years ago.

Buh Bye!

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.

SSM, The Council of Florence may have defined in official terms what is to be taught by the Church about Purgatory, but they didn't just "make it up." (I *gave* the verse more than once on this site).

Maybe you should read the Bible (the WHOLE thing, ALL the books, not just the parts you like) and set aside childish, ill-researched trash like that website.

aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

I guess that once again, an answer won't be forthcoming. :( What a shame.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 07, 2001.

Hi Jackiea,

Well, we share a common passion. I hate abortion also. I am so excited that we finally have a pro-life, pro-family President.

Have you read "The Catholic Chronicles" ? The answers to all of your questions are there... I don't recognize any religion as the one true religion. The Church of Jesus Christ is made up of all who believe and proclaim "Jesus Christ is Lord" "No King but King Jesus".(John Ashcroft) Read some of the threads where the Catholic religion is being defended, proclaimed,etc. It sounds like Catholic worship. I'm not meaning to be unkind here. I am just answering your questions. The Catholic church claims that their "Sacred Tradition" is EQUAL in authority with the WORD OF GOD.(Council of Trent...1546).

(I don't know how to do that cut and paste thing, maybe you would tell me how by private e-mail) You said, "Others have argued their points, but lose their credibility when asked WHY they have such strong convictions"...I think it is very frustrating to open up to people who aren't really listening, but actually thinking how they are going to answer next. Like when I told my story...the way it was recieved was very hurtful. Why keep talking if it's like talking to the wall.

My convictions come from my own experience. I've been to the Catholic church. I prefer the Charismatic Church that I belong to. We believe that God doesn't change. His character is right there in the Bible. Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit be just as big a part of our (followers of Christ) lives as He was in biblical times. Mr. Gecik has criticized me for talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I know that YOU choose Jesus. You once told me that you asked Jesus into your heart around the time when your husband left. Didn't you?

I'm working on an answer for Ed on the Eucharist. But for now my husband wants me to get off the computer.

Oh, have you heard the song by Kathy Troccoli, " A Baby's Prayer" ? I think that's the name. You could probably go to napster and download it. I think you might like it.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.

Susan, copy and paste is relatively simple. You highlight the part you want to copy and right click your mouse. Click copy. Then, go where you want to paste it and left click again. Then, click paste. Voila! Easy as pie. And so...I will do it again to respond to some points you made.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have you read "The Catholic Chronicles" ? >>>>>>

No. I have not. I won't get too personal here but let me just say that Satan and I have gone a few rounds and I think it's best to steer clear of things that can put doubt in my mind and turn me away from my faith.


*sigh* See, Susan, that's just it. I asked you some personal, pointed questions that I'd hoped that *you* could answer. Imagine if someone kept asking me why I am a Catholic and I kept referring them to the Catechism. It wouldn't be helping them to understand. Do you believe in the Apostles? Do you believe Jesus left them in charge, so to speak, to carry on his teachings? Do you believe that they chose a successor to carry on these traditions?


I don't think it's the kind of worship that you're thinking of, Susan. Most of us here feel very adamant about our beliefs, our Church (because it was established by Jesus Christ himself) and try very hard to make ourselves understood.

<<<<<< I'm not meaning to be unkind here. I am just answering your questions. >>>>

I don't think you unkind to me, Susan. And I hope you don't think me unkind when I say that those that I have met, in person that claim to be "born again" and recite Bible verses constantly instead of answering a question....well, they can be terribly overzealous. I have nothing against standing up for your beliefs....it just seems like what someone accused me of on a different thread...having your religion rammed down my throat.


Susan, if I may...here is a link that I hope you will visit. And others here, as well. http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/5/0,5716,119705+10+110574,00 .html

For the sake of space...regarding what you said...this is directly from the link above....Throughout the Middle Ages, the Apocryphal books were generally regarded as Holy Scripture in the Roman and Greek churches, although theoretical doubts were raised from time to time. Thus, in 1333 Nicholas of Lyra, a French Franciscan theologian, had discussed the differences between the Latin Vulgate and the "Hebrew truth." Christian-Jewish polemics, the increasing attention to Hebrew studies, and, finally, the Reformation kept the issue of the Christian canon alive. Protestants denied canonical status to all books not in the Hebrew Bible. The first modern vernacular Bible to segregate the disputed writings was a Dutch version by Jacob van Liesveldt (Antwerp, 1526). Luther's German edition of 1534 did the same thing and entitled them "Apocrypha" for the first time, noting that while they were not in equal esteem with sacred Scriptures they were edifying.

In response to Protestant views, the Roman Catholic church made its position clear at the Council of Trent (1546) when it dogmatically affirmed that the entire Latin Vulgate enjoyed equal canonical status.

Definition of Latin Vulgate-a Latin version of the Bible authorized and used by the Roman Catholic Church 2 : a commonly accepted text or reading

So, what they were saying was, their Bible had the same credibility as the Protestant one.

<<<<< "Others have argued their points, but lose their credibility when asked WHY they have such strong convictions"...I think it is very frustrating to open up to people who aren't really listening, but actually thinking how they are going to answer next. Like when I told my story...the way it was recieved was very hurtful. Why keep talking if it's like talking to the wall.>>>>>

I can totally understand and respect that, Susan.


Maybe I'm missing something here...what do you mean by that?


I must have missed that one. Could someone summarize for me?


Yes, although...I think he had always been in my heart. I just learned to depend on Him more during that time. :)


Oooooo...know that feeling. :)

<<<>>> Yes, I believe that was the one my husband's grandmother played for me the other day. Yes, I did like it.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.


It is amazing what children come up with. If a two year-old can find a reason to be quiet in church, that in itself has to be a minor miracle!


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 08, 2001.


I tried to find the stuff that Jackiea quoted on the way down, but didn't see it. this is what I'm referring to, though:

"My convictions come from my own experience. I've been to the Catholic church. I prefer the Charismatic Church that I belong to. We believe that God doesn't change."

I've one foot out the door, but I wanted to say I think I understand what you meant on the two points Jackiea asked you about. What if I told you that:

1) The modern Mass is virtually identical with 1st century accounts of Christian worship (right down to trans-substantiation)?

2) Our Bible is missing no scripture that the earliest Christians held to be inspired and sacred?

and now what if I told you that:

3) There are charismatic Catholics and charismatic Masses. One can be charismatic AND Catholic with no problems, and won't be missing out on the Sacraments, the Scripture, et cetera.

They do everything you guys would do, except that they also continue the beliefs and practices (ie Sacraments) of the earliest Christians.

ps - if you want the actual quote of the account of 1st century Christian worship, just let me know, I'd be happy to provide it.

aaaaa aaaaaa aaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.

Anthony, Here's what I tried to copy and was referring to when I asked for clarification.... We believe that God doesn't change. His character is right there in the Bible. Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit be just as big a part of our (followers of Christ) lives as He was in biblical times. Mr. Gecik has criticized me for talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.


If you believe that God dosNot Change, then Why are you changing what has been wrote in the Bible, Your Church add so much nonsence and twisted what Jesus commisioned us to do.... would you like a list?

-- Pope (catholic@pope.com), February 08, 2001.


. . .

. . . Would you like spelling lessons?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 08, 2001.

pope - jackiea was quoting, those are not her words...

Susan - I would argue that the Holy Spirit IS just a big a part of our lives now...

You want to see His presence manifested in certain ways (tongues, et cetera...am I right?), and when He wants to reach you He will do so in order that you understand and recognize Him. When He wants to reach anyone else He will do the same for them. I don't quite see where the argument is...

aaaaaaa aaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.


With all due respect, I think you missed the point of "Pope"'s post. You see, his spelling was a religious metaphor. While we in the Catholic church believe that we should ALL do what Jesus taught, in the same way he taught it, Mr. "Pope" believes he should interpret Jesus' teachings any way he feels is appropriate. Similarly, while we believe that having everyone make an effort to spell things the same way to avoid misunderstandings, Mr. "Pope" believes that his interpretation of proper spelling is just as valid as anyone else's, so no one else has the right to complain if they don't understand.

I don't believe that Mr. "Pope" couldn't spell correctly if he set his mind to it, he just doesn't believe that it's his responsibility to speak clearly and have others understand what he says -- after all, HE believes he understands what he's saying. With religion, he most likely acts the same way -- he *could* learn the truth, but prefers to invent or accept only what makes HIM comfortable. It's really a problem of a faulty world view, and not just poor spelling.


-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), February 08, 2001.

It is amazing what children come up with. If a two year-old can find a reason to be quiet in church, that in itself has to be a minor miracle! >>>>

Yes, Frank, I rather agree with you. Unfortunately, NOTHING can keep her quiet in our children's school. I was there this morning. It has quite a lovely echo in there. :) She enjoys hearing that echo. And no amount of "Shhhhh, sweetie" is gonna stop her. There's also a nice echo in the church when it's just the two of us. What can I say? The child likes echoes. :)

-- jackiea (jackiea@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.


Hi, gang.
Time to clear my name. Susan got things very wrong by saying: "Mr. Gecik has criticized me for talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit."
I have never done such a thing. I believe in "the indwelling of the Holy Spirit" and would not criticize anyone for "talking about" it.
What Susan may be referring to is the fact that several of us have proven to her that the Holy Spirit, though dwelling in baptized Christians who are in the state of grace, does not automatically lead people to an infallible private interpretation of the Scriptures, when they read the Bible without the guidance of Catholic teaching. If the Holy Spirit did do the kind of leading that Susan thinks he does, then there would not be 20,000+ different Protestant denominations, each claiming to be led into the truth by the Holy Spirit! Heck, even at this forum, there have been various Protestants who would disagree with Susan on major points of doctrine, even though they had read the same verses that she had read, and even though they claimed to have the same Holy Spirit indwelling. That in itself should be proof enough to her!

But -- sigh -- Susan never seems to be able to grasp what we try to explain -- and even prove to her. That is why, Jackiea, she has seemed "tenacious" to you, though she really is not. She has been coming back here for at least four months, saying the same wrong things, again and again. She never seems to understand that many things she has said have been proved wrong, again and again. The other anti-Catholics do understand, and so they leave. But Susan does not understand.

I have reached the point where I will not argue about doctrines with her, because I have become convinced that she is incapable of basic reasoning. (I mean -- you have just seen that she completely mistook the matter about the "indwelling of the Holy Spirit" that I explained above.) I'm sure that Susan has other God-given gifts that compensate for her shortcomings in the area of understanding. I have reached the point of being unable to get angry with her, because I think that she is capable of only a little child's thought processes. Perhaps some may call those words of mine a terrible insult, but I don't mean them that way. I mean them with a tenderness and forgiving spirit that has just come over me, after having witnessed people's countless attempts to reach her, on this thread and other.

As I said, it is apparently God's plan that Susan returns again and again, as he keeps her close, drawing her back to Catholicism. I no longer mind if she wants to stay here permanently and write whatever comes to her, as long as she follows the rules by never again copying things here from anti-Catholic sources like the "Catholic Chronicles."

St. James, pray for us. Santa Susanna, pray for your namesake.
O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you.
God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 09, 2001.


indewll: to be or reside within, as a guiding force or motivating principle.(Websters Dictionary)

blasphemy: the continual and deliberate rejection of the witness and the work of the Spirit of God.

"For this reason I remind you fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands." 2 Tim.1:6

"So as the Holy Spirit says:'Today, if you hear His voice do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion," Heb.3:7-8 (a hardened heart is a fortress which keeps God and others out while at the same time imprisoning you, isolating you in your rebellion.)

You said, If the Holy Spirit did do the kind of leading that Susan thinks he does..blah..blah.. Each part of Christ's body has a different role and different gifts. Some of us are hands, more able to care for others, some are part of the heart with immense capacity for love, some have knowledge, some prophsey, some speak in tongues, some encourage..Get it????

Mr. Gecik, has never proven anything to me . All his chit chat comes from his catechism. I don't recognize the catechism as truth. I don't recognize the Catholic church as the church that Jesus Christ founded. So all of your dogma means nothing to me.

When Keith Green was asked by a young Catholic man, " What are Protestants still protesting about anyway?" It caught him off guard, he didn't know the answer. Well, that really bothered him. What were Martin Luther, the Hugenots, the Anabaptists, the Quakers, and the multitudes of others protesting anyway when they broke away from the Church of Rome? What did they suffer untold persecutions and martyrdoms for? He had to find out. And when he found it, he knew he had to share it. So he wrote "The Catholic Chronicles" Keith Green was not anti Catholics...He was pro-Truth. Show something in the Chronicles that isn't true. Please.

As for your continued degrading remarks, such as..unable to grasp, does not understand,incapable of basic reasoning, shortcomings in understanding, capable of only a little childs thought process. There is no tenderness in anything you say. Your heart is cold and your spirit is so small that it's barely a spark. You would have to get rid of that HUGE EGO before the Holy Spirit would dwell in you.

Buh Bye.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 11, 2001.

Dear Susan,
You as well as John give and take unmercifully and come to a point where your personal feelings interfere with the messages. I think it's regrettable. Your attitude has constantly shown that you are unwilling to bend. Unwilling to be taught. When your characteristic style aggravates the problem, all discussion is brought to an end, and personal animosity takes over.

What characteristic style? Elitist, condescending, and proud. All dressed in purple robes of sensitivity and drama. John feels rightly that you aren't interested in the subject of our salvation. You really aren't, because if you were, you wouldn't treat it as the accomplished fact you think it is. You fail completely to make your case, not because you aren't confrontational. You certainly are! Because you stake your claims (to salvation) on nonsense; LIP SERVICE, and on anti-Catholicism. Give it up. John may be sore at you, but that's no excuse for acting as if he were coarse and vulgar and belligerent. He's just fed up with your posturing and preening, that's all! Now that you know this, why not go to some other site, where your brand of Christianity is appreciated?

All of us here are Catholics. In charity we would like to see you included. But you've become a source of friction, and you really aren't useful to anybody any more. It's too bad; but quoting bible verses can't change it. The devil quotes the Bible, Susan. You aren't the only one. God bless you and give you grace.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 11, 2001.


This is about what you said about rejecting the catechism and Church. I realise that. Of course you do, any of us that don't know that by now have surely been under a rock (but let's not get talking about "rock"s again ;o)

The reason I bring this up, is that I have heard similar things said in the past few days. He learned from the catechism, he is guided by the Church (as you learned from somewhere and are guided by someone), so any answer he gives is, OF COURSE going to reflect the Church's teachings! That is why you keep asking him questions! To get his answers! If he gave you your answers instead of his, there wouldn't be much point in asking the question, now would there.

In closing, consider the following:

Take your sentences above, replace catechism and Church with whatever your equivalents are (I'm sure you have a favourite minister or teacher that opened you up to these ideas, and I'm sure you recognise SOME authority greater than yourself), and your statement would be true if spoken by him. So that doesn't get us anywhere. John doesn't make this stuff up...he didn't "invent" theology, he (like the rest of us) realise that none of us are experts, (except for maybe one, but I haven't seen him in awhile) and while we do have to do our own scholarship, it shouldn't be done without guidance, else we end up like mr. "prophet" who's been posting the last two days...


-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 11, 2001.

Thank you, Susan.
Please pray for me.
May God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 11, 2001.


I hope I didn't hurt your feelings. I have to admit that you hurt me. I try to be tuff, but I can't always do it. Satan loves it when people who claim to love Jesus fight amongst themselves. I really do care what all of you think of me. But God is #1..always.

I have a couple posts to answer. And then, if God gives me peace about it..I'll be out of here.(just for you and Eugeneous).

You reminded me of Rich Mullins the other day. He was such a spirit filled Christian singer/song writer. So I have one of his songs just for you. Hope you like it.

" Hold Me Jesus" by Rich Mullins ...

Sometimes my life just don't make sense at all/ When the mountains look so big / And my faith just seems so small.../So hold me Jesus/'cause I'm shaking like a leaf/ You have been King of my glory/ Won't You be my Prince of Peace..../And I wake up in the night and feel the dark/ It's so hot inside my soul I swear/ there must be blisters on my heart...So hold me Jesus/ 'cause I'm shaking like a leaf/ You have been King of my glory/ Won't You be my Prince of Peace. Surrender don't come natural to me/ I'd rather fight you for something I don't really want/ Than take what You have that I need./And I've beat my head against so many walls/ I'm falling down, falling on my knees./ And this Salvation Army band is playing this hymn/And Your grace rings out so deep/ It makes my resistance seem so thin./...So hold me Jesus / 'cause I'm shaking like a leaf/ You have been King of my glory/ Won't You be Prince of my Peace.

I have been praying for you all along. And I will continue till the Lord stops putting you on my heart.

May God's Blessings fall all over you. In Jesus name I ask it. Amen.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 11, 2001.

Yes Anthony,

His name is Jesus Christ.

God has one answer for every human need - His Son Christ Jesus. He died instead of us for our forgiveness; He lives instead of us for our deliverance.two substitutions: a substitute on the Cross who secures our forgiveness and a substitute within who secures our victory......"It is no longer I, but Christ"" I live no longer , but Christ lives His life in me."

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 11, 2001.

I sincerely doubt you came to Christ in a vacuum. God likes to work through those around us (we are Christ's hands, mouth, et cetera). Surely someone must have introduced you to the idea of Christianity or raised you in it (if it was your parents). I'm sure you go to some church somewheres where someone other than you preaches, and if you are a minister of some kind I'm sure you had to go to a seminary of some sort. This is what I meant.


-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 12, 2001.


I know what you meant. I have talked about my church, our Pastors,and my relationship with Jesus. Maybe you haven't read any of those threads, so I'll give it another shot.

My son (C) led me to Jesus. I was not an easy sell. I was pretty set on staying a Catholic, but God had other plans for me. (C) and all of his friends started praying for me... long story short...God brought me to my knees. I accepted Jesus as my Savior, and Jesus made me a new person. I started reading the Bible, God's Word. I found out that if we follow God's plan for our lives, instead of our own plan, life is a whole lot better.

I belong to a Charismatic non-denominational Church . We believe the whole Bible is true. We proclaim that Jesus is the only way to the Father. Salvation is through Jesus Christ..alone. Good works are the outward evidence of the love of Jesus. I don't belong to a cult. I don't worship anyone but GOD. I don't pray to anyone but GOD.

I've been accused of being addicted( how did he say it..my faith is like an addiction.. I don't remember) I am here to say YES! I am completely, sold out to Jesus Christ. Hook, line and sinker in love with the only one who loves unconditionally. Agape love. He is my husband and my best friend. Through Him I can love everyone.

The Pastors in my church teach straight from God's Word. They are well educated and led by the Holy Spirit.

Have you been filled with God's Holy Spirit? Have you been a Catholic all of your life? Have you been to a charismatic catholic church? What was it like? Don't talk about your catechism or quote your sacred tradition. Just tell me in your own words. From your own heart.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), February 13, 2001.

Thanks for the explanation.

Before I get started:

One other question I do have...when I see "non-denominational" I read "all denominations welcome" Catholics included. Is this correct?

Just to clear things up: I only quote the CCC when there is a question of Church teaching (ie what does the Church say about [x]), because there's no better source for that information, but I don't justify arguments with it. I know emotions have a tendency to run high here, but it takes alot to get me riled (I don't think I've ever been short with you) and I never shrink or drop a legitimate exchange of ideas.

My point was this (and then I'll get to answering your question), If the Holy Spirit give you the power to interpret, and also to your pastors, what happens if your interpretation/understanding comes into conflict with theirs? Do you defer to them? If you do, understand that this is what we do with the Church...we don't claim to have all the answers, for there are those far better versed in such matters. That doesn't give us license to stop looking for answers, but we have a guide, a point of reference from which to work. If you claim (and totally believe) that the Holy Spirit has aided you and your teachers, and I claim (and totally believe) that the Holy Spirit has aided me and my teachers (the Church), and we come up with differing views, which one of us is right? What is to stop a Waco-like cult leader from saying (and perhaps even believeing) that *he* has been aided by the Holy Spirit? There's no way of proving that the Holy Spirit has helped this person or that conclusively, else we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, without sounding pretentious, I would have to say yes, the Holy Spirit is ever with me. I talk to Him often and ask for guidance not just with matters on this board but just in the course of living every day.

I have been Catholic all of my life, but had my biggest bond to the faith rather recently. I roomed with a Methodist friend of mine for a couple of years, and we frequently had conversations that looked very much like this board. He tried to show me on a few occasions that much of what the Church did or taught was either unnecessary or downright perilous.

He really knew his stuff, and it would frequently take me days to track down his sources to check his comments (I had to make sure that what I was being told was accurate). What I found was that it frequently wasn't, or it was only half true.

I started to do my own scholarship for the first time. I figured the best place to start was to read writings of leaders in the protestant movement past and present (I wasn't even sure what all our differences were). I would read what they said about the Church, and then I would "check" their answers like I did with my friend. I found similar results. I tracked the evolution of the protestant movement (I feel that what has happened philosophically in the last 500 years is a far cry from what Luther intended when he first put voice to his complaints), and found many modern things based on what I feel to be shoddy foundations from earlier movements. In short, the more I investigated, the more entrenched in Catholicism I became, because I saw things in protestantism that just didn't add up. That's just some background on where I'm coming from...

Have I been to a charismatic Catholic church...no I haven't. I don't know of one in my neck of the woods that's strictly charismatic, but then again I haven't been looking for one. I just know that our "regular" (for lack of a better word at 2.15am) parish has a charismatic Mass or two in the course of a week. I have commitments that keep me at the 9.30am Sunday Mass, so I haven't been to one, but I know we have them.

Now, in the way of background...just something to ponder... This is not CCC nor Sacred Tradition, this is just me, Anthony, talking...giving you my personal take on things and why I believe the Church is the way to go. This is part of a larger something that I posted elsewhere, but I will put a portion of it here so you can pick my brain a bit.

As far as knowing who to believe, it is clear that the apostles were given authority to teach, forgive sins, cast out demons in Jesus' name. Of the apostles, it is equally clear that Peter was singled out as the leader (even if you don't take into account the KEFA=ROCK line and just look at how he is talked about), and we know he acted as the "tiebreaker" when the rest were unsure.

Aside from minor heretical groups springing up from time to time, one authority was recognised in scripture interpretation for the first 1000 years of the faith and largely undisturbed (except for eastern orthodox) for another 500 years after that. That authority is today known as the Church of Rome with the Pope as its "leader" on earth.

Everything every group knows about the faith (as a foundation) from orthodox to mormon comes from what was recorded and passed on by this church for 1000-1500 years. Since then, these groups have cut books from the Bible, added books to the Bible, done away with most or all of the Sacraments, or any number of equally ghastly things.

Through all this, one group has remained constant - the Church of Rome. If the Catholic Church has been derelict in her custodianship of the faith, then the foundations of every offshoot are put asunder as well. The Church has served as the basis for all of these offshoots and to alledge misconduct or misteaching is to undermine one's self.

If you want to know who has the authority, you can 1) look in scripture (the Peter thing is pretty clear, and went unquestioned for 1000 years, so half of Christian history agrees) 2) look at history (who has been traditionally accepted as the authority?) 3) look at practices (who still has the same beliefs/practices of the earliest Christians? These were people who shared our reverence for Mary, believed in the intercessory power of the saints, kept relics and icons, believed in the full Bible with all of its books, and accepted the word of the bishop of Rome as highest earthly authority).

I have found only one possible answer, and because you have found the charismatic way a comfort doesn't mean that (in this instance anyway) you can't have your cake and eat it, too...


-- anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 13, 2001.

Greetings: God is the same yeserday today and forever, the Catholic church is not. 31 antipopes, a doctrine here a doctrine there and this is what we believe. 1 Peter 1:24 "All flesh is like grass, and all it's glory like the flower of grass. The grass witheres, and flowers fall off, but the word of the Lord endures forever" And this is the word wich was preached to you.

The word endures forever not mans doctrines wich shall fade away and always contradict Gods truth. Gods word never mentions Catholic anything oh but how it always talks about being saved by faith.

-- Alex is saved by grace (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.

He won't bother to answer, but to put his words to rest:

Gods word never mentions Catholic


I didn't see the word in God's word. Have you, Alex? I know New Testament is on the cover. But where is Bible? Maybe Bible and Catholic are the same thing!!! Yeah! ALEX JR ! ! ! --Where did that little guy go?

Mother of Jesus Our Saviour-- Holy mary! Pray for us, Amen. James, Glorious Apostle of the Holy Catholic Church, Pray for us!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 14, 2001.

Thats why you stick to what is written lest men come along and make all types of human doctrines so will just stick to Gods word wich is all in Gods word.

-- Alex is saved (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), February 14, 2001.

"Thats why you stick to what is written lest men come along and make all types of human doctrines so will just stick to Gods word wich is all in Gods word." [Alex Ruiz, Jr.]

Well, at least you are right about men coming along and making human doctrines, Junior -- such as the one you yourself have just come along and made.

[Actually, I give you too much credit, Al. You did not make up that human doctrine of "sola scriptura." Father Martin Luther made that one up. You accept that human doctrine from him, but you would reject other things he accepted (e.g., the Real Presence of Jesus in Holy Communion, the fact that Mary was "ever virgin," the baptismal regeneration of infants, etc.).]

God bless you.

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 16, 2001.

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