The World and The Church : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread

In this forum we have met the world head-on, these last few days. We the people of the Church of Jesus and His Apostles.

Consider how the world looks upon the Catholic faithful. In our Catholic forum, all speakers have their say, friendly and unkind.

I want no strict rules of conformity as the others want; let the best ''man'' win.

Many here are repelled by friction in these postings. I see them as productive; if they help expose a bigot's weak argument against Our Lord's Church. Here is a forum in which the HOSTS accept another church's conditions for the debate: Everything in question is decided by the written Scripture, and the Church's Tradition, plus the testimony of countless saints and martyrs is of no value! Who sets the standard? Protestants.

---- FINE!

Do Protestants have to accept a Catholic's interpretations of the Word of God? Or have Catholics any claim to knowledge of the Word of God? Does the Word of God support even the minor aspects of the teaching of Catholic Popes, Saints, historical and/or traditional belief? NO !

Then what is the only criterion on which we are to be allowed to agree?

The Holy Bible; just the Bible and nothing but the Bible! --SO, if a Protestant claims Catholics act and believe contrary to the Bible and its revelation, making proof out of his/her particular notion of the meanings of a verse; (usually one, maybe two or three verses)-- --The Catholic must accept defeat! All decisions are up to the Protestant, and no appeal is available to the Catholic. His Church and Sacred Tradition are not a court of appeal. Saints, martyrs, miracles and history; all are useless against a verse or two, interpreted independently and absolutely by a Susan Magistro, a Matt Veldt, a Mary Derek, and Dr. Ozoo! If a gesture of ecumenism is made to these hypocrites, they want us to CAN the Virgin Mary!

What kind of Catholics are we? Let me tell us: ''I know thy works; thou art neither cold nor hot. But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot-- I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, 'I'm rich and have grown wealthy and have need of nothing', and dost not know thou art the wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked one.'' This is Scripture (Apocalypse 3: 15-17) and it is addressed to Catholics! Then the Lord says, ''He who overcomes, I will permit to sit with ME upon my throne, as I also have overcome and have sat with my Father on His throne. (Same chapter, verse 21) /

When the stealth of Satan sends us anti-Catholics, or ''former'' Catholics, and proselytizing ''Born again'' mediocrities like Alex Jr and Matt Veld and that Bozo Ozio; Why can't we try to overcome? --Let's not cry because we are being disturbed in our sleep!

Mary Our Mother and James the Holy Apostle, by your holy intercession, enkindle our faith! Amen!

-- eugene c. chavez (, January 31, 2001


Dear Eugene,

I liked your post. Sometimes I think I wuss out on God. I don't know how to preach the Gospel like the apostles did. I don't know how to get people to believe in something I have so much faith in. I don't even really know how to "win" an argument. In fact, I have serious doubts of the value of rhetoric. I think that except in cases where winning an argument matters only in the short-term, like winning a trial, debate contest, etc, rhetoric really doeesn't matter. Whenever I "lose" an argument, I later think of a dozen brilliant things I could have said that would have astounded my opponent and made me the "winner." So I won the argument in my own mind, though I did not win when the argument took place. Arguments don't convert people-- God does. They CAN bring people to know God, and they can quiet doubts from people who are already faithful, but don't know all the issues. But only God can turn a stubborn heart around.

When I contradict Protestants on this forum, I am trying to get them to understand the Catholic faith. How can they convert if they totally misunderstand Catholicism? But I really have no idea how to get people to convert, so I just try to defend my position. I have to do this all the time, not just on this forum. Two of my roommates are not Catholic-- one is nondenominational, and one is agnostic. They are both really sweet, intelligent, loving girls, and they have a lot of questions about my faith. They are also coming from completely different backgrounds and have different reasons for their questions. My agnostic roommate knows next to nothing about Christianity and even less about Catholicism, so mostly I just tell her what we believe. I have to explain terms like "grace" to her, because she has no idea what that is. My nondenominational roommate has a lot of ideas about what Catholicism is that are just dead wrong. I have to explain what exactly we believe, and why her facts are wrong, and that Protestant churches did a lot of that stuff too until recently, etc. Now, I have to live with these people; they're not strangers like the people on this forum, and I can't call them a lot of names without having some major problems on my hands. So I have gotten in the habit of being patient. I have to give them credit too. Unlike a lot of the non-Catholics on this forum, when I tell them what Catholics believe, they don't argue about whether I'm wrong. If I tell them we don't worship Mary, they don't argue. They might not pray to Mary and the saints themselves, but at least they know I am not committing sacrilege. That makes conversation with them a lot easier. SO I am used to forcing myself to be calm and collected when I defend my faith. I think if I started dissing people in here, I couldn't control my temper outside this forum.

Eugene, I admire you for being so passionate. I'm young and naive and haven't faced a lot of adversity. If people are horrible and disgusting on this forum, I will continue to ask that they be kicked off. If I seem weak and foolish, just pray for me and give me a break, OK? I don't have your stamina.


PRay for us, St. James and Mother Mary.

-- Hannah (, January 31, 2001.

Dear Hannah--
You don't wuss out; you are charitable. Notice in the first three words here, I say IN THIS FORUM.

Naturally, one can't go around confronting somebody every day. Most of what Jesus asks of you and me is to pray for converts, and you aren't a lukewarm Catholic if you pray daily, and offer sacrifices in reparation for the world's indifference to Christ. My post is directed at a segment here that thinks you can bar the door on others, who come here to start confrontations.

When I'm home, and a Jehovah's Witless rings my doorbell, I tell him, NO-- I don't want the Watch Tower magazine. No, I'm not interested in talking to you; I'm sorry. Goodby! Is that because I'm lukewarm? NO. That guy wants to take my whole morning sitting in the living room, telling me the Church of Rome is Anti-Christ!

But an Internet forum by definition is like a clearing house; the more ''hits'' it receives, the better the forum. In a wussed-out forum with the huge potential it offers us; we are supposed to be ''lukewarm''? The potential I mean, is reaching possibly thousands of good folks out in cyberspace; they saw ''Catholic'' on the web page, and it attracted them. Christ would think, ''Let's see how my Church uses this tremendous potential.'' Is it ''preaching to our own choir, because we ban controversies andconfrontations? --Or is it ''holds no bars''-- like some anti-Catholic nerd wrote here a day or two back? LOL! I say go for it! Jesus said''Overcome!'' You are gentle and reserved, Hannah. I'm at the opposite pole. You have only to pray, and set a great example to your roomie and others. I hope to use this medium as apositive force for the Catholic Church. Many others also, have great powers of persuasion in here. Look at what Frank Chiming In, and John Gecik and Ed have been saying! The beauty is, they don't have to bend the truth; all they need is to TELL the truth, to those that enter here. OVERCOME (Apoc. [Rev] 3:21)--

-- eugene c. chavez (, January 31, 2001.

Thanks Eugene! I get what you're saying. Let me quote from one of my favorite parts of the Bible, one we read in Mass 2 weeks ago:

"Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it. SOme people God has designated in the church to be: first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" (1 Cor 12:27-31)

Chapter 12 & 13 are so far my favorite parts of Paul's letters. I was so thrilled when chapter 13 was read last week!

That's what's so great about this forum-- we bring our individual gifts, histories, and knowledge here to work together for a common goal.


Pray for us, Mother Mary and St. James, that we may use our God-given gifts to the best of our ability to strengthen the Faith and give glory to God.

-- Hannah (, January 31, 2001.

You two will have me in tears shortly.

-- gordon ashley (, January 31, 2001.

Thanks, Hannah, I love to read a post from you, because you have real love for others. Don't let the guys who play dirty sometimes take away your peace of mind. Your gentle replies to these people is another shining example of how you live the Holy Gospel. Those characters are bad news; but they come with the territory, and we have to cope the best we can! Ciao!

-- eugene c. chavez (, January 31, 2001.

January 31st is my Mom's birthday. She's 87 today! Please remember her in your prayers!
Blessed Virgin Mary, Pray for us all, and for my Mom; Pray for us, Dear Saint James! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (, January 31, 2001.

Happy birthday to your mom from me, Eugene!


-- Hannah (, January 31, 2001.


I don't know, Enrique and Hannah, if Gordon was being sincere or sarcastic in writing, "You two will have me in tears shortly."
But I say, with all the sincerity I can muster, that you both touched me greatly by your whole exchange, especially the first two messages -- which came straight from your hearts.

You are good, Enrique, to encourage us shy and weak-willed characters not to take the easy, lukewarm way out.
You are good, Hannah, to remind us to be charitable and to play the true role Jesus has assigned us, not to try to be a "finger" in the Body of Christ if He has created us to be a "toe."

Let us all move forward with renewed spirits, one day closer to meeting Him and each other.

Mother most amiable, pray for us.
God bless you.
PS: Feliz cumpleanos a la Senora Chavez. How blessed you are, Eugene, to have been near your Mama for over 60 years!

-- J. F. Gecik (, January 31, 2001.

Thank you, John and Hannah, too. My mother and I are many hundreds of miles apart. But close in spirit! Spoke to her long distance this morning. She lives in a convent retirement place operated by Discalced Carmelites in San Diego. I asked her to remember me to her close neighbor, the Sacred Heart of Jesus. (There's a beautiful chapel in the house).

-- eugene c. chavez (, January 31, 2001.


Happy Birthday to Mom,


-- Someone (, February 01, 2001.

Happy Birthday to your mom, Eugene. I'll bet she's a wonderful woman and blessed to have a son like you. :) I can understand what you wrote in your original post. Sometimes, I can stomach most of the rhetoric that bounces around here. But when you get into mark of the beast, church is a whore, makes me sick and I feel I must do something about it. I can understand someone saying well, you're doing this wrong because....It opens the door to legitimate discussion and allows us, as Catholics, to explain to the person why we do what we do, etc. I admit, I was blind and ignorant to the Catholic religion. I criticized things that I had no business criticizing because I didn't have all the facts! Once I finally took the time to have an open mind and actually go to the source, a Catholic, then I understood and stopped that line of thinking. When you are genuine and honest in your quest for answers, I'm fine with that. But if all you are interested in is name calling, slander, lies, boastfullness, ignorance and hatred....I'm NOT fine with that!

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Dear Lord, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference...Living one day at a time, Enjoying one moment at a time, Accepting hardship as the pathway to peace. Taking, as He did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it. Trusting that He will make all things right if I surrender to His will. That I may be reasonably happy in this life, And supremely happy with Him forever in the next. Amen.

Peace, love and joy be with you.

-- jackiea (, February 01, 2001.

Thank you, my friend--
My mother's a great woman. I recall dimly, 1942; and I was a child of 4 yrs-old. Mom taught me to pray, in Spanish. I was a brat; I didn't want to pray. But over so many years, her faith made me a carbon copy of her own soul. She is a sinner, sure like we all are. I have been in sin often. But there's room in heaven for sinners, as long as Jesus Christ loves them. He'll find the way to hook me at last. My mother still prays for me.

Virgin Mother of God, Our petitions are laid at your feet; Pray! Dear James, Apostle and Cousin of Jesus, Pray for our forum! Amen.

-- eugene c. chavez (, February 01, 2001.

I forgot to say: In 1942, my Mom's older bro, FRANK-- was a marine serving our country. She decorated a little cigar-box, with tinfoil, filled it with chocolate fudge; and sent it to him in Guadalcanal. I saw her crying. I never will forget that. God bless you, Frank /

-- eugene c. chavez (, February 01, 2001.

Dear Jackie,
Thank you for the flattering things you say about me. I want you and all others in here to know: I'm not a saint. I have real human failings and I fall sometimes. God is understanding with me, and merciful. My life has been a catastrophe spiritually, on some occasions. But He helps me back. He helps all of us; through Jesus' love.

I'm glad for you; living life one day at a time. The days fly by; and sooner than we know, we'll be with Our Lord as He has promised. God bless you, Jackie. Keep the faith!

-- eugene c. chavez (, February 01, 2001.

The Apostles' Creed continues to be used as the baptismal profession of faith in most Western churches; Orthodox churches prefer to use the later Nicene Creed. In Roman Catholic practice, the Apostles' Creed is also recited in the daily office, before the first and after the last service each day. In most Protestant churches, it is used periodically at Sunday worship. Anglicans and Lutherans use it regularly in morning and evening prayer (matins and evensong).

I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

-- Alberto Ponce (, February 03, 2001.

-- Alberto Ponce (, February 04, 2001.

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