DOES ANYONE THINK IT IS CRUEL TO CASTRATE ANIMALS THAT ARE OLDER THAN BABIES WITHOUT A PAINKILLER

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HI THE ANIMALS GROUPS ARE ALWAY COMPLAINING ABOUT RODEOS AND I DONE'T THINK THEY ARE ALL THAT CRUEL. HOWEVER I DO THINK THAT IT IS MEAN TO CASTRATE A FARM ANIMAL WITHOUT ANY PAINKILL IF THEY ARE NOT STILL A BABY. HAVE ANY OF YOU SEEN OR HEARD OF THIS AND WHAT DO YOU THINK. PLEASE E - MAIL ME AS I MIGHT NOT CHECK THIS BB THAT OFTEN . THANKS ROGER

-- R HAYES (HIDAHO2@AOL.COM), February 05, 2001

Answers

NO RODGER I DON"T THINK IT IS CRUEL TO CASTRATE ANIMALS OLDER THAN BABIES WITH OUT A PAIN KILLER!I THINK IT HURTS BUT THE AMMOUNT OF PAIN IS RELATIVE.WHAT MAKES YOU THINK IT DOESN'T HURT THE BABIES? ONCE UPON A TIME WE USED TO CASTRATE PEOPLE.DID IT HURT? YES.WAS IT SO SCREAMINGLY UNBEARABLE THAT THE PERSON DIED? NO.ANIMALS ARE CASTRATED TO MAKE THEM SAFER TO BE AROUND AND IMPROVE THEIR GROWTH RATE.I THINK IT IS REAL NEAT THAT YOU POST THIS CONTENTIOUS SUBJECT HERE AND DON"T PLAN ON CHECKING BACK TOO OFTEN!ME THINKS THIS SMELLS OF P.E.T.A. WHY ALL CAPS?

-- Gregory J Smith (gsmith@tricountyi.net), February 05, 2001.

Probably a FLAMER.

-- Lynn Goltz (lynngoltz@aol.com), February 05, 2001.

No it isn't particularly cruel. I grew up on a cattle ranch and we always castrated and dehorned(wormed etc) when they were weaned. They don't throw too big of a fit when they are castrated. I'm sure they are sore since they walk around a bit stiff legged for several days. It is like anything else....depends on how it is done and who is doing it. We used a sharp pocket knife to castrate with. I've also seen castration done with burdizos which seems less invasive. I haven't seen them banded. When we dehorned we got enough of the horn so that it wouldn't grow. I've seen some people that like a very clean head profile on their cows that take way too much and I think it causes more pain that necessary. For the most part farmer/ranchers treat their animals very humanely. A well treated animal is a more profitable animal.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 05, 2001.

Once again this gets me , are you also concerned about newborn baby boys being circumsied{ sorry sp }without any pain meds .I was young and foolish and would not allow it to be done again .I treat my animals the best i can .They do not feel pain like we humans do .THEY ARE ANIMALS NOT PEOPLE !

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), February 05, 2001.

My bull calves don't have a say so in the matter, either being banded as newborn or castrated at weaning. I wasn't castrated, just clipped, but yes I was sore for about a week. Nothing special. They get over it. I don't use a bull with horns, so don't have had to dehorn much.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 05, 2001.


I'm going to really contest that animals don't feel pain like humans do. That just isn't sensible. I've seen animals screaming in agony and I can't imagine that they were doing it for vocal practice. Pain is a relative thing. People walk into hospitals who just realize that they have been stabbed because there is blood on their shirt, but they didn't feel any pain, despite being stuck with a 6" blade. So from what they told me, I could assume that humans do not feel pain. When I had major abdominal surgery, they told me that I would 'have some discomfort'. 'Some' is a relative term (like some gunfire might mean a BB or a .20 gauge, depending on how you view it). 'Discomfort' is what SOMEONE ELSE FEELS, in my opinion. What I was feeling was unrelenting pain for two weeks, and boy howdy, once you've been through that, and someone says 'some discomfort', you're ready to show them something about discomfort with a frying pan. Comfort is when it STOPS.

Also,just out of historical interest about human castration, this was a very common practice a few centuries ago in China, who had the highest medical standards and training of the time, and fully half the boys castrated died from it, shock, usually. Did they have any pain killers? I don't know. (and to forestall any comments about the Chinese birth control practices -- we don't need any more flaming after all -- this was done voluntarily. There were some very very choice jobs to be had for eunuchs and they did it to move up socially in the world and get rich.) I would GUESS, mind you, that animals don't die from shock as a result of castration as easily as humans do, or that vets are better now than Chinese surgeons were then. I often wish that my Vet WOULD see me as a patient.

I had my male dog neutered, and he didn't think it was fun at all. My poor females looked like they were in a lot more pain being neutered because of cutting through abdominal muscle. As I recall, they were on some mild painkillers for a short while only. Less time than the physical pain lasted. All in all, and judging from newly castrated horse, they have *less* pain than one would imagine, but they're not happy campers. However, sometimes you HAVE to NOT use painkillers in these situations because you WANT the animal to feel enough pain to keep it quiet and heal, instead of feeling frisky and going galivanting and doing themselves some damage.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), February 05, 2001.


It probably is cruel, just like disbudding kids with a dehorning iron is cruel. I think that the blood supply and sensation to the area is more pronounced in an adult animal than it would be in a young one. But the fact is, that we have to do a lot of things to our animals that might be cruel, if we want to have livestock, and not pets. I think it is our responsibility to make it as easy and stress free for them as it can be, but sometimes these things have to be done.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 05, 2001.

Something that ya'll might want to consider.....our animals are treated far better than most. A calf raised on a homestead has a much better life than one raised in a feed lot. A milk cow cared for on the farm is far better off..healthier and happier than one raised on one of the mega dairies(I worked on a dairy this week where fully half of the cows had either active mastitis or had a blind quarter from a previous case of it). Our chickens experience the fun(I assume they have fun..sure looks like it) of scratching in the dirt and finding bugs. Factory chickens are raised under deplorable conditions. Same situation no matter if you raise pigs, pidgeons, quail or what have you. When we have to do procedures that hurt or are uncomfortable we do it as quickly and painlessly as possible. Some folks would argue that no animal should have any pain and that some things are cruel so shouldn't be done. Well if that is the case then everyone would have to become vegetarians. If we all become vegetarians then there wouldn't be any livestock. Lets face it...cows aren't the brightest critters...if we didn't raise them for food I seriously doubt they would live long in the wild.

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 05, 2001.

Amanda, you laid a big truth on when you said, "cows aren't the brightest critters...if we didn't raise them for food I seriously doubt they would live long in the wild." However, we need to remember the Texas Longhorn. They did very, very well in the wild. Guess if you are mean enough, dumb don't count.

-- Lynn Goltz (lynngoltz@aol.com), February 06, 2001.

Now that someone else has bravely gone before me, (thanks, Julie!) I will offer my vote that YES, of course it is cruel to castrate without anesthesia! Perhaps the banding methods are less painful, but I just cannot imagine taking a knife or blade to a fully developed pair of testicles. Regarding the question of "how much pain, exactly" or "how does the pain compare to human pain"...does it matter? If you have the option of using something to alleviate the animal's pain, you simply SHOULD. If it costs money, just pay it! It's simply the right thing to do. And it doesn't cost that much anyway. Geez, if you can't or won't pay a vet to be there when it's necessary, then you really should reconsider keeping animals. Grow vegetables instead...they don't object much to being sliced and diced, and you never need to call the vet for broccoli.

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), February 06, 2001.


I can't imagin not useing a painkiller,my vet knocked out the calves when she dehorned and castated,she then gave me a sray on painkiller to use for a few days.We did the pigs too and same spray was given,they seemed less stressed then when I had another vet do the pigs.I think any pain is to much to cause just because "they get over it" I also agree to a point about supplying vet care ,just wish vets were cheaper. I have a hard time spending more on vet care then food for the family.

-- renee oneill{md.} (oneillsr@home.com), February 06, 2001.

OF COURSE animals feel pain. I was really shaken at the castration of my first male goat and I don't think I was as upset as he was. Somethings that are painful must be done for the health and well being of all concerned, but don't pull yourself so far back from the pain of an animal as to think they don't feel it. That's sad. I do believe that it is worse for the animal the older that they are, as the bigger something is the more painful it is to get rid of it.

Amanda has some very good points on this, too.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), February 06, 2001.


Yes they do feel pain ,just not at the same degree .I have seen castrated animals play within hours of this being done .Have had mom"s getting up and jumping after birth .I had to give a dog drugs to almost knock her out after a spay because she would run full speed and jump {this was the next day}.With some animals it is not safe to give drugs to , if possible yes maybe would should give them something .Funny how no one mention baby boys.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), February 06, 2001.

Okay. I'll mention infant humans. I don't have any. My mom says that she would not do it to a child ever again.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), February 06, 2001.

My stepdad kept a heard of cattle, and I was witness to "working" the cows a few times, and I felt horrible for the beasts. Truly, they were older calves, and some would drop to their knees when the Vet. Cut of the testicales. The also seemed bothered by the cutting of the new horns. I must say in all honesty though, that they did appear to recover about 90% withen 10 minutes of getting out of the chute. I suppose it bothered me more becasue I KNEW what was happening to them; to them it was extreme pain of short duration. Like Amanda said, they did walk funny but appeared to be no worse for it. If I find myself in a position again to work animals, I'll probobly opt for local pain meds of some type, to help me if not the beasts.

-- Marty (Mrs.Puck@Excite.com), February 06, 2001.


I also had my sons circumcised, and would not do it again. I was a teen mom and easily influenced (obviously! :) I begged the docs to use something, anything, to numb the baby before the procedure, but they convinced me it just couldn't be done without major additional risks. Now tell me, how is it they can spray that cocaine-stuff on the site of a wound needing stitches, but they can't do the same for an infant's penis? There's something way off with the whole circumcision thing. 'Nother thread!

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), February 06, 2001.

Back to the origional question. I don't feel it is any more painful for an older animal than a baby one to "fixed". They are alive and feel pain as well as the rest of us. But to keep farms safe for the farmer this must be done. If done right it is quick and the pain goes away quickly enough. We have dehorned goats and calves in the past and the goat kids are always quick to recover minutes after. The same with casturation. Get over it, don't be so wimpy. As the Bible says we are caregivers to the animals and they are to serve us, their not equal to us.

-- michelle (tsjheath@ainop.com), February 06, 2001.

This appears to be a thread with the purpose of getting everyone upset and arguing. All caps and the nature of the question, then they are not even interested enough in the replies to check back. Must be a very dear issue to them. I'm not not biting!

-- Shau Marie (shau@centurytel.net), February 06, 2001.

If this should be another thread, please forgive me. This is a important to me, and I felt the need to give my 2 cents. Patty, I'm with you. I have three boys, one circumcised, two not. If I had it to do all over, I would never do it again. I was one who listened to all the arguments for it. The big one, if you don't get it done, there is a higher chance for cancer. I believe there is a higher chance for cancer if I keep my breasts but I sure wouldn't let the doctor cut them off, just in case.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), February 06, 2001.

Yes, it is cruel to not use painkillers for these animals. And yes I do live on a farm.

-- Suzy in 'Bama (slgt@yahoo.com), February 06, 2001.

For what it's worth, the Bible forbids castration of animals, Lev 22:24-25. The Israelites were not even allowed to buy castrated animals.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 06, 2001.

Everyone that I know that raises their animals in the best way possible. Best food, care, pastures. But I have seen every time a Vet gives a Ram lamb a painkilling shot,to castrate. That lamb dies a very painfull death. Were as banding, I watch my lambs carefully, they are sore for about an hour, then are running and playing.

But if you want to talk about cruelity, how about all those, PETA and city people that move out to the country and LET THEIR DOGS RUN LOSE! YOu think your dogs will stay on your land, think again, fixed or un fixed they will pack up and roam. Guess, what , they get bored and kill livestock and the most painfull ways possible. That is CRUELITY! Is was still your dog, maybe it was done second hand so to speak. I have proven so many dogs owners they were wrong, its not funny. Those same dogs will go out of their way to find or kill livestock, and hurt Elders and children and WILDLIFE. Why don`t the PETA and self rightish people, do something about domectic dogs?????? Why should my family and livestock suffer because of peoples dogs?? And don`t tell me dogs will be dogs,,, Dogs should not have more rights than anyother creature on this planet! My place is fenced like Fort KNox! Sorry,, will get off my soap box now.

-- Bergere (autumnhaus@aol.com), February 06, 2001.


Let's do an experiment. Let's castrate Roger and then he can tell us "up close and personal". Did it hurt? Hmmmmmmmm...bet I already know what his answer would be.

Abuse is abuse is abuse no matter what the "animal". When it is justified as not being cruel...well, that's only a head-game used to justify when in fact, it's pure and simple TORTURE!

Who's kidding who here?

-- Joanne Schaefer (JoOhio1@aol.com), February 06, 2001.


Sorry the reason for the caps is i am a poor typest. i am not an animal extremest. i just happen to think that cstrating older animals is cruel unless a painkiller is used at the time of the castration as is the law in england. if anyone has read ALL CREATURES GREAT AND SMALL" and the other books this vet always gives at least a local painkiller older animals. i am sure it hurts the babies too but not nearly as much. i have found references on the internet that studies have shown the stress and weigt gain tobe back on baby annimals real soon but the weigt gain is off and stress high in older animals for some time. the other thing is a lot of the time it is done without vets. sorry for those who took my note wrong. roger

-- R HAYES (HIDAHO2@AOL.COM), February 06, 2001.

Actually, Bergere, one of PETA's objectives is to end the captivity of all animals. They don't think anyone should have even a pet animal. Their solution is spay and neuter all domesticated animals (or prevent breeding -- fairly easy with birds, for instance), let the animals live out their natural lives, and then no more animals in "captivity". Fortunately for those of us who wish to responsibly keep animals, most people don't agree with such a totalitarian view. Many people who join PETA don't research far enough to discover this goal. Some people are genuinely concerned about animals rights and humane treatment, but some people just use the rhetoric to excuse their lack of personal responsibility for their animals, such as the ones allowed to roam and get into all sorts of trouble or get run over.

So, to answer Roger's question, yes, I do think it is usually cruel to castrate without anesthesia. A painkiller would be preferable, IMO. On the other hand, though my 2 year old cat had anesthesia for her spaying and a post-op injection for the pain, I almost wish they hadn't given her the pain injection. She was supposed to rest quietly, but refused to do so. I had to let her roam the house, as the alternative was her climbing the sides of her hospital cage. After the effects of the painkiller wore off, she was much more sensible about what she did, at least for a few days. So, I think one needs to be aware of the possible outcome of your various choices and act accordingly.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), February 06, 2001.


I think that sometimes things need to be done and if you can avoid pain, then do it! I grew up on a ranch where we raised all manner of animals (besides poultry, we had cattle, sheep, goats, hogs, cats, dogs, etc.) and we dehorned & castrated the ones we needed to. Daddy didn't like to cause any animal pain if he could help it, so we used bedeezers for castration. I've seen it done both ways, and judging from the amount of bellering and jumping, I'd say the bedeezers were MUCH less painful than cutting, even for older animals (8 or so months old).

BTW, Rebekah, those scriptures from Leviticus were talking about animals that were to be burnt offerings to God, not regular animals on the farm.

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 06, 2001.


Sorry Roger! A friend emailed and told me you posted. I misread your post as being sneaky. I was wrong!

I wish my animals to suffer as little as possible. This why i don't eat veal. I am in total disagreemnet with PETA and other simular groups. I also am sure animals feel pain. I watched a yearling colt suffer in agony for three days even on pain meds. It was terrible!

I read once where a poll was taken and the question was: "If you saw and dog and a man drowning, who would you save first?" The majority said the dog and stated that the man could save himself, where as the dog is helpless. This is a sad statement for our times.

Again i am sorry for the poor judgement.

-- Shau Marie in WI (shau@centurytel.net), February 06, 2001.


I had to come back. This may start a whole 'nother big free-for-all fight. But I couldn't ignore it. I remembered that Roger is of the opinion that rodeos are not "all that" cruel (however much "all that" is). I have to vehemently disagree. Though there are rules against cruelty, the reality is that there is little enforcement. The animals are abused to make them sufficiently "wild" to perform "well". Animals are inevitably injured. Usually there is no vet to treat the animal or even humanely euthanize it.

Here's an article written by a veterinarian about rodeos:

http://www.sharkonline.org/rodeocruelty/abuse-inherent.html

Yeah, its from an anti-animal abuse group. What a surprise -- who ELSE would document such things? There is no practical purpose to rodeos. It's a business to make money based on the suffering of animals.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), February 06, 2001.


Yeah, I was on my way back here to comment on rodeos after having thought about all the postings overnight. But I see we're finally broaching that subject too. I don't see any use for them either, other than a public spectacle and money making scheme. Bull riding I find boring at best, next I question what is wrong with the people who want to do it (I believe that it is THE most dangerous profession as quoted by health professionals and insurance agents alike). Roping cattle and calves, well, it's not like that's an efficient way to bring food to market. If dogs were chasing the animals like that, I think there would be alot of outcry about chasing pounds off them and stressing them, but it is for money making andwhatever weird enjoyment people get out of watching it.

I am pretty much down on a lot of rodeo events involving horses, but most especially on things like bronc riding that are not closely supervised (and I think they ought not to be wearing spurs). I can't remember the name of the 'event' that is horse-tripping (that there was the broohaha over out in California not too long ago), but THAT one should be absolutely banned. I don't like horse racing either.

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), February 06, 2001.


Animals do feel pain, but when you come after them with your rusty vise grips, they don't know your about to cause them pain. I tend to believe that the bodies own natural pain killers kick in, in animals as it does in people. Anticipation probably hurts more.

I don't want to volunter, however I also think that castration is not a big deal and causes little pain, however the thought of losing the family jewels would be over-whelming.

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.


Hogwash! Rodeo animals(the majority)are well taken care of prized animals. I grew up about a mile from a rodeo. Their land just about ajoined ours on the backside of our place. Their bulls were worth lots of money and treated as such. Healthiest bunch of bulls you ever wanted to see. Yes I'm sure that the sling that they use around their 'jewels' to make them buck is uncomfortable but certainly not cruel. Probably no worse than when you guys 'get in a bind' in a tight pair of bluejeans. I've seen men buck and jump when that happens :o). Calf roping I'm sure it kind of shakes the calves up a bit but doesn't hurt them. I've seen lots of cows and calves roped and it does no harm....that is one reason this method of catching cattle was developed. No rancher in his right mind is going to hurt his stock or injure them. Now in any human population you will have cruel mean people and I'm sure(percentage wise) that some of them are involved in rodeos. Those individuals ought to be gone after but not the industry as a whole.

I'd like to comment on some of the other postings here. I certainly don't condone cruelty to animals but some people take this too far. If we were talking about people there wouldn't have been near this much sympathy. For some reason we value animals more than people. Wouldn't it be nice if we showed as much concern for our fellows as has been expressed for animals on this thread?

-- Amanda in Mo (aseley@townsqr.com), February 06, 2001.


If I can catch a bull calf within a day of being born, they get banded. If not, castration is done at weaning. Even with the small number I have, it takes a couple of hours to get them all into the headgate. I'm not about to admisister a 'local pain killer' which takes an additional 10-15 minutes each to kick in. I'm the herd master and they have to live with it, like it or not. I was circumsized as an infant and am glad it was done.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 06, 2001.

Ken you forgot the main reason cattle ranchers and pig farmers don't give pain shots.. It cost money, after all isn't this what it's all about?

-- hillbilly (internethillbilly@hotmail.com), February 06, 2001.

September 1976 Western Championship Finals Rodeo in Folsom, California One horse suffers a heart attack and dies, and another suffers a broken neck after running into a fence.

Fall 1982 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) A calf suffers a broken leg, bleeding badly. He is taken to ranch and killed. Also, a horse suffers a broken leg and is killed.

1983 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) Two horses dead. One suffered an aneurysm, collapsed and dies in the arena. Another had his leg broken, and was killed.

Fall 1984 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) One calf - severely injured - is hidden from Humane Officer

1985 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) One horse dies after hitting head on a steel post. Two calves suffer fractured legs - - one is taken to a slaughterhouse and the other is given a cast. Two more calves suffer dislocated legs and are given casts.

November 1985 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) One bucking horse suffers a broken back and is killed. One roping calf suffers a broken back. One horse suffers a swollen knee, one horse suffers a gash on head, one horse suffers a face injury, one horse suffers a cut on hock.

June 1986 Police Officers Association Rodeo, Rowell Rodeo Ranch, Hayward, CA A horse suffers a broken leg and is shot. No veterinarian is present

July 1986 Half Moon Bay Jr. Rodeo in Half Moon Bay, California One horse suffers with a swollen cannon bone.

November 1986 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) One horse suffers a fractured rear hock. Electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

June 1987 Police Officers Association Rodeo, Rowell Rodeo Ranch, Hayward, CA A calf is runs into a fence during roping, and suffers a broken nose and palate. He is still thrown down and tied, then left in the sun for four hours, bleeding from the nose and mouth. Despite promises that there would be a veterinarian on site, there was none.

August 1987 Rodeo and Stampede in Omak, Washington (All Indian Rodeo) One horse killed in "Suicide Race."

September 1987, Inglewood, California A horse found with gaping wound laid open to the bone on hind leg.

November 1987 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) One calf suffered a broken leg, one calf suffered right rear leg injury, one calf suffered laceration on face, one calf suffered a sprained leg.

Four horses suffered lacerations, one horse suffered a gash on the face, one horse suffered an injured hoof, one horse suffered a gash between the ears, one horse suffered a cut on right rear leg.

One bull suffered an injured leg.

Electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

June 1988 Rodeo at Watsonville, California (Mexican Rodeo) A horse suffers a broken back, and is dragged approximately 75 feet from the arena, is left to suffer for 1-1/2 hours before arrival of a veterinarian, who euthanized the horse.

July 1988 Bill Pickett Invitational Black Rodeo - Los Angeles Equestrian Center During the "Wild Horse Race," a horse runs into a wall, injures leg, bleeding from nose and mouth, and is still saddled and ridden.

1989 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) A calf goes down during the calf roping event and is unable to stand. It is destroyed later.

1989 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) Electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

1990 Hawaii rodeo A bucking bull is paralyzed, with video documenting the injured animal dragging his hindquarters across the arena, bellowing in pain as two ranch dogs attack him.

1990 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada Two horses are injured and killed, one steer suffers a broken leg and is killed.

1990 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) A horse suffers a broken leg and is killed.

1990 San Francisco Grand National Rodeo (PRCA) One horse suffers a shattered disk during bucking, one horse suffers a cut eye. Electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

November 1990 Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania A bucking bull has his leg broken. There is no vet available, so the injured bull is hidden in a trailer. Later he is killed.

This incident led to passage of a law that, while not banning rodeos outright, did ban the use of rodeo's tools of torture, including electric shock devices, bucking straps and spurs. There hasn't been a rodeo held in Pittsburgh ever since passage of the law.

No torture -- no rodeo.

June 1991 Reno Rodeo in Reno, Nevada (PRCA) A bull suffers a broken back, and is killed.

July 1991 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) One horse suffers a fractured rear leg and is killed.

1992 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada One horse killed.

1992 Reno Rodeo in Reno, Nevada (PRCA) One horse left arena with bleeding nostrils which soon became severe bleeding from nose and mouth. The horse was killed. One horse with 6 inch gash on chest. Several horses, calves and steers limping with injured legs. One steer suffered a broken horn. An attempt was made to secure horn with duct tape.

1993 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) A bull has his rear leg caught in a fence and suffers a break while trying to free himself. The bull is killed.

July 1993 Wauconda Rodeo in Wauconda, Illinois (IPRA) Multiple severely underweight steers with open, swollen wounds.

1993 Frontier Day Rodeo in Cheyenne, Wyoming (PRCA) Two horses and one steer are killed.

1993 Lake County Fair Rodeo (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000- volt prods to force them to "perform."

August 1993 Omak Stampede Rodeo in Omak, Washington (All Indian Rodeo) One calf suffers a broken leg.

1994 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada One horse suffers a broken leg and is killed.

July 1994 Wauconda Rodeo in Wauconda Illinois (IPRA) One horse's leg becomes caught in rope during calf roping. No report is given on horse's condition. Multiple horses with open flank strap wounds.

1994 Lake County Fair in Illinois (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

September 1994 Fraternal Order of Police Rodeo in Lake County, Illinois (PRCA) Electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

A steer is killed during the steer wrestling event. The dead animal was hastily rolled onto a piece of section of fencing and rushed from the area. A short time later, rodeo people paraded another steer in front of the crowd, claiming it was the animal that had actually been killed.

A young man working as a volunteer through the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) uncovered the fraud. In fact, he was one of the people who carried the dead steer out. He reported that everyone was told of the intended fraud, and everyone was warned to never talk about what had really happened.

This young man showed great bravery. He was the only person among the rodeo cowboys or the Lake County Sheriff's Police who told the truth. The PRCA stood behind the false claims of the stock contractor, the Barnes Rodeo Company.

1994 Rodeo at Pierce College in Woodland Hills, California (National Collegiate Rodeo Association) A steer is injured during steer- busting. It was impossible to get documented information from the rodeo to determine the animal's eventual fate.

Interestingly, a steer was brought out the following day, and was supposedly the same animal that had been injured. The only problem was that the animal's markings were somewhat different.

The school claimed that the animal was "fine." However, this reaction from rodeo people and their sponsors is typical after an injury not resulting in immediate death.

1995 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada One horse killed after head injury, two horses killed after breaking legs, one horse suffers a shoulder injury after being knocked down, one horse collapses.

July 1995 California Rodeo in Salinas, California (PRCA) Three horses killed (broken leg, broken neck, heart attack), a steer dies of a broken neck, a calf's back is broken. Although veterinarians were present, they did not euthanize the calf, as they didn't want to "ruin the meat." The young animal lay suffering for over an hour until he was finally taken to a slaughterhouse, where he was killed.

July 1995 Wauconda Rodeo in Wauconda, Illinois (IPRA) Several children shook up and/or crying after falling during sheep riding.

1995 Lake County Fair in Illinois (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1995 Grundy County Fair Rodeo in Mazon, Illinois (IPRA) One steer's tail is purposely broken (video documented) in an effort to make him run. One steer used with an open wound.

August 1995 Santa Barbara Fiesta Rodeo in Santa Barbara, California (PRCA) A horse is gored after being improperly housed with a bull in a holding pen. An individual not associated with law enforcement fired three gun shots at the dying animal -- missing each time -- in front of a large crowd that included children.

The local sheriff, a rodeo proponent, ignored this violation, which is a felony, city authorities attempted to sweep the incident under the rug.

February 1996 Anaheim Pond Rodeo in Anaheim, California A bronco crashed headlong into a heavy metal gate and was killed. Spectators reported that wranglers were "prodding the horses and hyping them up." The rodeo foreman admitted his men used 4-foot long wooden prods to keep the handlers out of kicking range.

April 1996 In Laramie County, Wyoming, a community college rodeo coach was charged with cruelty to animals after four rodeo steers froze to death.

1996 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada Three horses killed.

September 1996 Los Angeles County Fair Bullriders Classic in Pomona, California A horse is killed after crashing into another horse and suffering a broken neck.

April 1997 Cal Poly University Rodeo in San Luis Obispo, California A horse suffered a fall and was killed while bucking. The announcer told the crowd the horse was "OK."

1997 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada Three horses suffer injury, and two die as a result. A bull being ridden in the bucking event kicked so high his leg became wedged in the chute gate. His leg was completely fractured above his fetlock, exposing the bone. The bull was killed.

July 1997 DuPage County Fair Rodeo in Wheaton, Illinois (Lazy C Rodeo Company) One horse slams head into sign precariously placed over chute. Goes down, but is still forced to buck. Neither the fair nor rodeo officials offered information on the horse's condition afterward. Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1997 Yolo County Fair in California Many animals shocked with 5,000- volt prods to force them to "perform."

1997 Effingham County Fair Rodeo in Altimont, Illinois (Lazy C Rodeo Company) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1997 Kendall County Fair Rodeo, Yorkville, Illinois (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1997 San Dimas Rodeo, San Dimas, California (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

August 1997 Kern County Fair Rodeo in Bakersfield, California (PRCA) A bucking horse goes down, rolls, comes up with an apparently broken left front leg and shoulder. The horse is forced into a stall, where he goes down again. The rodeo never gave any more information on the horse's condition.

August 1997 Boone County Fair Rodeo near Rockford, Illinois (IPRA) A bucking horse suffers an injury to rear leg. No information was given on horse's condition afterward. One rodeo clown video is documented kicking a calf in the head and throwing sand in a bull's eyes. Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

August 1997 California State Fair (PRCA stock contractor) A performing dog is injured in a fall. No report is given on the dog's condition. Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

The cruelty was exposed via Sacramento-area media. The PRCA refused to take action.

1997 Illinois State Fair Rodeo (Lazy C Rodeo Company) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

August 1997, Big Bear, California Rodeo (PRCA) Many animals had their tails twisted and raked over bars. An electric shock device was used to force animals to "perform."

SHARK gathered undercover video footage for the television program "Hard Copy." When the stock contractor was interviewed and asked about the tail twisting and raking, and the use of electric shock, he denied it. Hard Copy used a split screen to simultaneously show the cruelty and the denial at the same time to a national audience.

When shown video footage of the shocking, the stock contractor initially denied it, then stated he did not know who the man was. The man was the stock contractor's son.

The PRCA refused to take action.

1997 Isleton, California Rodeo (IPRA) Two horses used with open flank strap wounds, one bull suffered open slices on sides, apparently from spurs. One bull checked for back injuries. A rodeo worker disclosed two of the bull's siblings had already died of broken backs while bucking. Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

September 1997 Flat Rock Rodeo in Flat Rock, Michigan (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform." The cruelty was exposed to Detroit, Michigan and Toledo, Ohio area media. The rodeo never returned.

October 1997 International Pro Rodeo Association (IPRA) Regional Finals, Gordyville, Illinois A steer whose head became stuck outside a fence was repeatedly kicked in the face and head to force him back inside. A 5,000-volt electric shock device was used to force animals to "perform." The rodeo was attended by IPRA President Jack Wiseman. When contacted, the IPRA stated it had no problem that practice.

January 1998 Philadelphia Rodeo (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1998 World's Toughest Rodeo in Peoria, Illinois (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1998 World's Toughest Rodeo in Rockford, Illinois (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

1998 World's Toughest Rodeo in St. Paul, Minnesota (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

March 1998 Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo in Houston, Texas (PRCA) One steer died of a broken neck, and two calves suffered broken legs.

March 1998 World's Toughest Rodeo, Rosemont, Illinois (PRCA) Horse suffers injured leg. No information forthcoming regarding the horse's condition by rodeo officials. Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

May 1998 Montgomery Rodeo in Skillman, NJ (APRA) Electric prods used on steers and bulls confined in chutes to force them to "perform." A steer suffered a deep gash on his back. Another steer suffered a split horn and bloody cheek. Several sheep suffered leg injuries after children's sheep riding. One steer was trampled by a horse during team roping.

June 1998 Guilford Rodeo in Guilford, Connecticut During a "dash for cash" contest, a steer was tackled and thrown to the ground. His neck was broken. Organizers of the rodeo called in a clown to distract the stricken audience. The steer died. Many animals shocked with 5,000- volt prods to force them to "perform." Afterward, the Connecticut Make-A-Wish Foundation, recipient of some rodeo proceeds, announced it would no longer be associated with rodeos.

June 1998 Henry County Fair in Cambridge, Illinois (IPRA) One horse used with open, raw, bloody flank strap wound.

July 1998 Folsom Rodeo in Folsom, California (PRCA) One bull and one calf suffer leg injuries. Rodeo promoters admitted to the injuries, but would only say the victims received "appropriate treatment."

July 1998 Wauconda Rodeo, Wauconda, Illinois (IPRA) Multiple children hurt during sheep riding, multiple horses with open, bloody flank strap wounds, one calf, one horse, one steer injured. No further information given on injured animals or children. On the contrary, the rodeo people claim that the animals are fine.

SHARK investigators waited to release video footage and still pictures of rodeo injuries until stock contractor Thyrl Latting and two IPRA judges claim that there were no animal injuries. In response to SHARK documentation, Latting claims that flank strap wounds are not wounds, but burns. We didn't bother to tell Mr. Latting that a burn is a wound. Investigators also document inches of animal waste on the floor of Latting's livestock trailer. Latting claimed he was unaware of the trailer's condition.

The rodeo was attended by IPRA President Jack Wiseman. As Wiseman's camper/pickup pulled out of the rodeo grounds, Wiseman's passenger displayed rodeo's concept of family values by giving an obscene hand gesture to people, including children, who were protesting cruelty to animals. Requests for an apology from Wiseman and the IPRA went unanswered. (A picture of the obscene gesture is displayed on this site)

July 1998 DuPage County Fair Rodeo, Wheaton, Illinois (Lazy C Rodeo Company) Multiple horses with open wounds on face. Having been exposed for the use of 5,000-volt electric shock devices to force animals to "perform" the previous year, the rodeo placed a man crouched behind the chutes, sticking animals with a pointed object similar to an ice pick. The rodeo was again busted with high-powered video cameras.

August 1998 Effingham County Fair (Illinois Bullriders Association) Numerous piglets injured during "pig scramble," in which children are encouraged to tackle or jump on tiny piglets. One piglet escapes into field. 5,000-volt electric shock device used to force animals to "perform."

August 1998 Kendall County Fair Rodeo, Yorkville, Illinois (IPRA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

August 1998 Minnesota State Fair Rodeo (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

September 1998 Gurnee FOP Rodeo, Lake County, Illinois (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

January 1999 National Western Stock Show in Denver, CO (PRCA) A bucking horse crashed into a wall headfirst and died from a broken neck. In a second incident during the same rodeo, a bucking horse had his back broken and was killed.

May 1999 Montgomery Rodeo in Skillman, NJ (APRA) Electric prods used to force the animals to "perform."

June 1999 Rodeo in Santa Maria, California Three horses fall at a full run. Two were sustained leg injuries; limping as they left the arena.

1999 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada One horse killed

June 1999 Rodeo in Long Island City, New York Police fire 40 shots at an escaped rodeo bull. It took fifteen minutes for the animal to bleed to death.

July 1999 Wauconda Rodeo in Wauconda Illinois (IPRA) One child injured during sheep riding, multiple flank strap wounds on horses, multiple horses with injured legs. No further information given on outcome of either wounded animals or children.

July 1999 Calgary Stampede in Calgary, Alberta, Canada (PRCA) One horse killed.

July 1999 Rodeo in Columbus, Ohio A rodeo bull was shot and killed by police after breaking free.

July 1999 Kane County Fair Rodeo, St. Charles, Illinois (IPRA) One bull used with open cuts. Many animals shocked with 5,000 volt prods to force them to "perform."

July 1999 Ford City, Pennsylvania A rodeo bull suffers an "anxiety attack" and jumped an eight-foot fence to escape.

August 1999 Can-Am Rodeo in Ottawa, Canada A bucking horse suffers a broken neck when he slammed into a fence. Spectators watched the horse go into death shudders after breaking his neck.

August 1999 Santa Barbara, California Fiesta Rodeo A bucking horse died from a fractured skull after slamming into the arena wall.

September 1999 Castro Valley California Cowboy Gathering and Ranch Rodeo Bucking horse suffers a broken leg.

1999 Rapid City Rodeo in South Dakota (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

November 1999 Silver Springs Rodeo Grounds, Kissimmee, Florida Bull suffers a broken leg broken and is killed.

February 2000, San Antonio, Texas A bucking horse has his spine snapped. Paralyzed, the horse dragged himself by his front legs across the stadium before collapsing. The horse was killed. Rodeo officials said that this incident, and a couple of calves with fractured legs at the previous year's rodeo were "freak accidents."

March 2000 World's Toughest Rodeo in Des Moines, Iowa (PRCA) Many animals shocked with 5,000-volt prods to force them to "perform."

May 2000 Rodeo in Spokane, Washington A bull escaped from a bull- riding contest and ran down the interstate before being hit by a car. Although shot at by police, the bull disappeared into the woods before being recaptured three days later.

May 2000 Montgomery Rodeo in Skillman, NJ (APRA) Electric prods used to force the animals to "perform." One bull suffered bleeding ears and horns.

May 2000 Festival of Flags Rodeo in Killeen, Texas (PRCA) Two horses injured. One suffered facial lacerations, and one a leg injury. No veterinarian on site, which is a violation of PRCA humane rules. In fact, the rodeo veterinarian stated that only the horse with the facial lacerations was reported to him. In addition, the vet said he had been required to sign a PRCA form listing the animals injured at the rodeo, and that only one horse, the one with the facial lacerations, had been listed.

Also, PRCA rules require a conveyance to remove injured livestock. The rodeo vet stated that he never saw such a conveyance.

June 2000 Livermore Rodeo in Livermore, California (PRCA) A bucking horse broke her neck and died. Although two reporters from the Tri- Valley Herald witnessed the death, and although the paper's photographer took pictures, there was no mention of the accident. This illustrates how some media is willing to cover-up the truth about rodeo cruelty.

July 2000 National High School Rodeo Association (NHSRA) Finals Rodeo, Springfield, Illinois Dozens of animals shocked, and many animals subjected to extreme tail twisting and tail raking. Shocking animals to make them perform violates NHSRA humane rules.

Initial reports from the NHSRA indicate no animals injured. However, following a SHARK press conference wherein footage of cruelty violations and injury did occur, the NHSRA admitted six animals were injured.

Repeated attempts by SHARK to establish dialogue with NHSRA management, including registered letters, proved unsuccessful.

September 2000 Bell County Fair Rodeo in Belton, Texas (PBR) Bulls shocked while in chutes to make them buck from pain.

October 2000 Arkansas State Fair Rodeo in Little Rock, Arkansas (PRCA) Many animals shocked in chutes, which violates PRCA humane rules.

October 2000 rodeo in Liberty, Texas (PRCA) Many animals shocked in chutes, violating the PRCA's humane rules. There was also a "Calf Scramble," in which over a dozen children were set upon very small calves. For over 15 minutes, the children treated the calves so roughly that over half the young animals collapsed from stress and exhaustion. Treatment included headlocks tail pulling and twisting, dragging, jumping on them, etc.

Calves who wouldn't or couldn't get up on their own were manhandled to their feet by their ears and tails by a rodeo clown.

October 2000 PRCA Texas Regional Steer Roping Finals in Del Rio, Texas (PRCA) The worst tail raking ever witnessed by SHARK investigators. There was no veterinarian on site when a steer was injured, which violates PRCA humane rules.

The victim was rolled onto a sled, dragged to a gate, rolled off the sled and dragged out of sight without a prior checkup, possibly increasing the seriousness of the injury. Personal conversations with rodeo employees indicated the steer suffered a dislocated shoulder, while other employees said the steer was perfectly fine. This would lead to the question of why a "perfectly fine" animal was dragged out of the arena.

Rodeo employees admitted there was no veterinarian present. The fate of the injured steer is unknown.

November 2000 Grand National Rodeo at the San Francisco Cow Palace (PRCA) A bull suffers a broken neck and dies. The rodeo announcer says the bull is just knocked out, and claims "this has happened hundreds of times." The announcer went on to make jokes about how the bull was "gonna have a big headache when he wakes up."

December 2000 National Finals Rodeo in Las Vegas, Nevada (PRCA) A calf was injured during calf roping. The degree of injury is unknown. Several witnesses declared the calf dead due to the trauma she suffered, and as she was motionless the entire time she was being removed. The PRCA claimed the calf recovered. However, the PRCA has not supplied SHARK with video footage that could be used to review the incident, in spite of the fact the PRCA has multiple cameras filming every contestant of every event. This fact, plus the PRCA's history of covering up animal injuries and deaths, indicates to us that the calf did indeed die.

Note: The information contained on this page is a very partial listing

-- Julie Froelich (firefly1@nnex.net), February 07, 2001.


Julie: You go girl! Listen, I have been an animal activist for well over a decade, and have protested/picketed at HUNDREDS of places (fur stores, labs, circuses, you-name-it). When we protest at rodeos, we have to ask for police protection for OURSELVES. Sorry, but the rodeo folks are the most foul-mouthed, obnoxious, chaw-spittin', cussin', violent rednecks I've EVER had to deal with. Rodeo protests are the only place I have ever felt truly threatened by 'the opposition'. Then again, whaddya expect from folks who get their jollies from twisting the necks of baby cows til they collapse, or the folks who pay to watch it??

-- Shannon at Grateful Acres Animal Sanctuary (gratacres@aol.com), February 07, 2001.

Julie ,where do you find the time ? You made me tired just reading.Good job.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@slic.com), February 07, 2001.

Patty, Julie got the info from the link I had posted previously. I am guessing that she was tired of people ignoring the links provided and decided to just post the info. Quite a long list isn't it? Anyone notice the mention of children injured in sheep riding (mostly) or the children traumatized by seeing an animal die violently before their eyes? I think it is ignorant to go to a rodeo with your children, and imagine that they won't see something cruel, but the rodeos are touted as "family entertainment". And DID anyone read what my link to see what a vet has to say about rodeo injuries?

Amanda wrote: "I'd like to comment on some of the other postings here. I certainly don't condone cruelty to animals but some people take this too far. If we were talking about people there wouldn't have been near this much sympathy. For some reason we value animals more than people. Wouldn't it be nice if we showed as much concern for our fellows as has been expressed for animals on this thread?"

Amanda, I'd like to comment back. Notice the mentions of children injured in Julie's post above. The fact that the number of animal injured outnumbers the children injured doesn't mean that no one cares. It's just fortunate that there aren't AS MANY children injured. Personally, I think everyone should be howling against the rodeos, for the injuries it causes to both humans and animals. The adults that participate have to take responsibility for themselves, however, IMO.

I certainly WOULD be screaming about the abuse of humans, should they be treated as rodeo animals are treated. Fortunately, so far, no one is insane enough to stage such a thing. Besides, I'm sure it's against multiple laws. I fail to see why expressing concern for animals without also expressing concern for humans somehow indicates that there is no concern for humans. Posting my entire list of concerns every time would certainly make for a LONG post (longer than this one)! But I will state that I am opposed to humans injuring, maiming, abusing, killing each other. And war is insane.

-- Joy Froelich (dragnfly@chorus.net), February 07, 2001.


Thank you Joy, well said.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.

I've always wonered how people could have considered the Collesium(sp) entertainment. Now I see that we haven't progressed at all.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 07, 2001.

Hi Roger just getting back to your reply, to my reply. I think we can surely agree to disagree. I think that the world is a better place if people can keep their cool about issues. I have seen week old calves casturated by a licenced vet at a family farm fair, and those calves were covered in blood all over their back leggs and they did not get up all day long. I did not see if the vet gave a painkiller shot or not. I only know that when we did our own animals they appeared to be fine after a few minutes. You sure stirred up a hornets nest with your questions though!! Thanks for talking to me.

-- michelle (tsjheath@ainop.com), February 07, 2001.

Gee Whiz folks, I think that as homesteaders we do what we can to raise our poultry and livestock in a humane manner. I can not be responsible for the people who mistreat their livestock any more than I am responsible for all the starving children when we have so much and throw away enough food to feed millions. And, this has bothered me a lot for a long time. I hate feedlots and egg and chicken factories. I have a good friend who has a small rodeo concern. These animals are worth thousands of dollars and there is no way that they let anyone mistreat them, they do not use cattle prods or any other devices to make them perform better. It is an individual choice made by humans. Some of these humans will do anything to make a dollar. I disbudd and tattoo and band my goats. I have seen dead goats caught in a fence because of their horns, I do not need a lot of bucks running around my pasture breeding my too young does. We are homesteaders, or at least I am because i love animals and poultry and have no desire to hurt them and try to give them as good a life as possible. But, I started raising them to provide my growing family with healthy homeraised food. Oh, I have seen it documented that plants have screamed when pruned, not in our hearing range so I guess it makes it okay. Think on that if you think being a vegetarian is a painless alternative.

-- karen (kansasgoats@iwon.com), February 08, 2001.

What physiology does a plant use to 'scream'? Just wondering. It seems the issue of pain relief is tied to expense and time involved. I think those are poor reasons to cause undue suffering.If you don't have the time or money to deal with proper medical care, then you need to rethink your involvement with animals. Remember that a society is judged by how it treats the least of it creatures.

-- Dianne (yankeeterrier@hotmail.com), February 09, 2001.

Why doesn't PETA also protest almost any sporting event, from t- ball to professional level since people are injured on a regular basis there, with the occasional death? Need to also protest many recreational activities such as rollerskating, sking and swimming since people are injured/die there also. People are technically animals. What is the basic difference between a horse tearing a ligament in their leg at a rodeo and someone doing it playing football?

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 12, 2001.

Ken, I am not a PETA person, but to answer your question, as I see it that is like comparing apples and oranges. Humans have choices, animals don't. Using them, animals, in humane ways is honoring to the Creator. It goes back to the old subdue or stomp on comparison. I don't particularly enjoy violent sports myself, but those guys that are playing them do have the choice to play or not to play. Just my thoughts

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 12, 2001.

Me again, was thinking (I know dangerous) does anyone besides me remember when a rodeo was actually a test of skills instead of a colisium type event?? When I was a kid we had cowboys for heros and they still existed. In our rural neighborhood most young people had a horse of some sort of another they could ride and we frequently practiced our "roping skills" on just about anything we could. (got us a few good whippings as I remember it-like when we practiced on each other, wonder how we all lived). Anyway, back then to be a cowboy was what a lot of us dreamed of and rodeos were annual outdoor events where the local talent was pitted against the "circuit riders" and it was a real thrill when a local guy won. Mostly they were fund raisers and very few people attended that weren't either excited about the skill or interested in participating in a fund raiser.

I remember most participants being animal lovers and that animals were handled humanely. It changed somewhere along the way and about 20 years ago I attended one and couldn't recognize the "sport". Rodeos started on the ranches as a fun time to match skills between competing ranches. What we have today doesn't even compare to that. Just my 20 cents worth

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 12, 2001.


Why is it assumed babies of any species feel no pain? After a human baby is circumcised it hurts like heck--I remember when I foolishly allowed my oldest son to be circumcised. He really suffered and I cried along with him. I think animals feel pain; how could they not? Mammals have a nervous system with sensory and motor nerves that originate from nerve roots from the spinal cord, as we do. Pain is a very subjective experience. You can ask 20 different people to describe their pain and to rate the intensity of their pain on a Likert (0-10) scale and come up with 20 different answers. My point is that this may even apply to other mammals as well. I'm all for eliminating suffering across the species barrier (and I am not PETA supporter).

-- amy (acook@in4web.com), February 12, 2001.

I hope I'm not intruding into some private list... It's cruel and wrong to castrate animals without painkillers, I wonder why it's not obvious to every one. Maybe because animals don't talk when they are in pain, like your relatives. We have become used to the mass suffering of animals. The Bible makes it clear God cares about animals just like he cares about people.

-- Abraham Agay (agay@vms.huji.ac.il), February 08, 2002.

You know....I'm really happy I'm going to be away for a few days!

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

TWELVE MONTHS! TWELVE MONTHS OF PEACE WE'VE HAD! AND THEN SOME IDIOT COMES ALONG AND STIRS THE POT AGAIN!!!!!

And yes, I know, but that's the way it started. Probably better if everyone else just ignored this.

-- Don Armstrong (darmst@yahoo.com.au), February 08, 2002.


sorry in advance if is starts a bigger argument, but I couldn't get the question out of my mind,.....Do you think it's cruel to let female animals mate, become pregant, experience labor and birth with out painkillers???, NOT to mention NO movie, drinks or dinner out at a nice resturant, GEE, NOT EVEN A CARD, or flowers or so much as a phone call the next day?!?! I've been through the female side of it, I'm very sure labor and birth hurt a WHOLE LOT MORE than beeing castrated. And in spite of my smart mouth I have to agree with Don on this this one.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.

I also agree with Don. What's the point of continuing this same tired argument. No one is going to change anyone's minds on the major issues. Everyone has their own opinion of what constitutes cruelty to an animal or person for that matter. Same arguments different time period.

-- Cindy (colawson@mindspring.com), February 10, 2002.

Yes, I do Roger. How many babies have you had?

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.

Why your doctors don't use Epidoral injections at child birth? Here they are standard treatment.

-- Abraham Agay (agay@vms.huji.ac.il), February 12, 2002.

Your doctors give animals epidurals?

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

I guess that instead of giving epidurals to animals, you can neuter them using painkillers. Sorry, but this seemed the obvious answer.

-- Abraham Agay (agay@vms.huji.ac.il), February 21, 2002.

Abraham- I can understand where you're coming from. On the surface it seems much more humane to castrate/neuter only when painkillers are used.

However- The fact is that an animal is MUCH more likely to die from the anesthesia. I know that this is the case with dairy goats, when you put them to sleep for an operation, you are taking a very real risk that they will die. Doing it at home, without any painkiller, may seem cruel, and it does hurt for a few minutes, but at least they live through it. And after about 15 minutes they are running around playing with the other kids again, so I don't think it could be too traumatic.

I don't castrate at all anymore, I just don't find it necessary. But if it had to be done, I'd do them young, with a knife, and no painkiller.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), February 21, 2002.


I just want to clean up some info. here Roger had emailed me with a [In my oppion] rather snotty remark, hence my "babies" responce, epidurals or not, labor and delivery envolve far more, body tissue, muscle and nerve, than any set of testicals/scrotum, that have ever existed. So, I think some people should spend more time studying anatomy and less time typing.

And Abraham, witty remarks don't work if you don't keep the context, if you belive pain meds are needed for males then you should want them for females too, and it takes a saddle block [which is an injection into the spine] to handle the pain of birthing, not an epidural, which is only a local.

And Rebekah, you are right about the problems of animals dying from anesthesia, I don't remember anyone else touching on that point. Here in OKC several animals have made local news after they died from post operative conditions (done by vets), resulting from the spay or neuter.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), February 21, 2002.


As Chucks first offical duty on this board, besides deleting the profane :) I vote to delete this post forever!!!!! Please! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

RE: Vicki's post. I second it! Am getting sick to death of seeing posts about removing sex organs.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), February 22, 2002.

My former vet said that on neutering operations males requires deeper sleep tha females. I was surprised, and he said it's sensitive area. About dying from anesthesia, it's clearly a matter of the vet's skill, and the equipment he uses. Doing it with a gas machine practically eliminates deaths, at least for small animals. I have no doubt that women suffer terribly in childbirth.

-- Abraham Agay (agay@vms.huji.ac.il), March 06, 2002.

Yes you can't unless you can then the answer is no. Or yes.

-- B. Lackie - Zone3 (cwrench@hotmail.com), March 06, 2002.

Abraham- I am sure that may be true with some aniamls, including cats and dogs. But goats are different. There is something tricky about using general anesthesia on a goat, they can die even in experienced hands. I have heard of a lot of kids dying while being put under for castrating or other routine jobs. Maybe they are much more susceptible to it as kids, I don't know.

I don't castrate anything anymore. I just eat the extra bucklings before they are old enough to breed. But to say that sheep ranchers with thousands of lambs born every year should load them all up and take them to the vet, well, it just isn't going to happen. I think that I speak for most livestock raisers when I say that we don't really enjoy doing these jobs. But if it has to be done, we do it as quickly and mercifully as we are able to. We care about our livestock, we want it to grow well and thrive.

Also, for what it is worth- I took a buck kid in to be surgically dehorned. They used lidocaine to anesthesize the hornbud area. Would you believe that he screamed and hollered more over the injection than the actual dehorning? The vet techs said lidocaine is extremely painful. So maybe it wouldn't be such a kindness to be injecting it around a male's private parts.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 06, 2002.


To Abraham- PS. I happened across the letter you wrote regarding the cats being caught, even if they were owned by someone, and put to sleep. I have to agree with you, that is just wrong and it shouldn't be done. I am not in favor of animal abuse, but I think that sometimes the only difference between abuse and a necessary procedure can be the intent. If I found out that someone was castrating animals just for fun, because it gave them a thrill, I'd be mad. I'd be upset if some weirdo was jabbing an animal with a needle just for fun, yet we give injections all the time. Newborn babies are strapped down and circumsized without any painkiller every day, by the thousands. Yet if someone did such a thing simply becasue they were sadistic and got some odd thrill out of it, they'd go to prison. Intent makes a lot of difference.

-- Rebekah (daniel1@itss.net), March 06, 2002.

Abraham your vet just has to be a man! How on earth could neutering a male be less painful than abdominal surgery to spay a female?? That makes no sense! Vicki

-- Vicki McGaugh TX (vickilonesomedoe@hotmail.com), March 06, 2002.

Could ANY body provide a quote from a veterinary text book that supports Abrahams claims? I would like to read it, as what he is now stating from his "former vet" is exactly opposite of what I was taught. It is interesting that my husband had his tubes tied with a local anaesthetic, in the Doctors office and was up and around the next day with out pain meds, I had mine tied and had to be put to sleep, in a hospital and could barely hobble to the bathroom for a week, with pain meds,.....hmmm

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

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