Hi all,

Well, I didn't think we would be doing this just yet but here's the deal.

Hubby retires from the military in 5 years. We're starting to think about our future homestead and where we might decide to settle. Yesterday I just happened to notice an ad in our little agricultural paper: "50 acres of mountain land...." The price was reasonable and sounded just what we would be looking for. So out of curiosity we decided to call the guy up and get more info.

The land is just over the border in Virginia. This man owns about 600 acres and is dividing it up. He plans to build a log home of his own on his tract.( I considered that a good thing. If he's going to live there he obviously isn't trying to off load something that's no good.) Also we would be within 4 hours drive of Ken's parents.

The land is a mixture of woods ( white pine, hemlock, frazier fir)and pasture. Lots of wildlife (bear, deer, wild turkey) Springs streams and ponds. Taxes (get this) $2.60 per acre! Phone lines are already there. Power within 300'. All that's needed is well and septic. The guy is also in the process of putting in a new road that will make access to the highway shorter by about a mile. (He owns a grading company)The road will have a gate and only those living there will have a key. There are two major highways close by and good sized towns within about 20 miles. Should be no problem finding work.

We didn't expect it to be this good! Hadn't planned to even start looking for a couple of years.

This guy seemed to be a bit of a homesteader himself. He said the soil is good and crops grow well. When I mentioned that we want to grow as much of our own food and be as self sufficient as possible, he made the comment that the way things are going "everybody should be learning to grow their own food and be self sufficient" So he would definitely be a like minded neighbor!

I need to hear from you others who have been through this. Especially those that bought land and then lived rough while building a house or cabin. Any major mistakes you made that we could be aware of. We bought this house through a realtor and have no experience of buying from a private person/owner financing and all that. Guess I have a lot of research to do.

Hubby's the "strong silent" type, doesn't get excited about anything. I'm bouncing off the walls full of "we could do this" and "we could do that..." And "what do you think? Doesn't it sound great???" He just grunts "yeah, we'll go up and take a look" (I guess that means he's excited about it too!) As I said we hadn't begun to look for anything yet. But I know YOU guys will give me some feed back!

Looking forward to hearing your views.

Pauline NC

-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), February 06, 2001

Answers

See if your local library can obtain a loaner copy of Finding and Buying Your Place in the Country by Les Scher. Absolutely great book for just your purpose. You might find it also through one of the on- line book outlets (such as Amazon) or a used copy at www.half.com.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 07, 2001.

Hi Pauline: Being a cynic by nature I would surely want to a see an access road "In place" before I bought land that might be land locked. Also, the taxes on a large undeveloped parcel are always lower than the taxes on a smaller developed parcel so the taxes will most likely go up considerable. You need to look carefully at the tax base and millige allocation before you determine what to expect about taxes. On a more positive note, we bought our land after a huge search and it was so wonderful knowing we had it. We camped on it and had gardens etc. before we ever lived on it full time. Watch out though. It really "calls" you and we found it very hard to resist.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), February 07, 2001.

All other issues aside, we have lived rough twice while building. Once with children and recently without. I have one piece of advice, if you are over 40 please be realistic. We lived in a truck camper for 4 months followed by another year of cooking in that camper and sleeping in a corner of the garage. Building always takes longer than you think. It got old fast, working hard and then having no way to be very comfortable at night while trying to rest. A lot of our time was spent with survival things that could have been spent building. If I had it to do over again I would have pulled a bigger camper onto the property, one with good living facilities or I would have rented while building.

-- Jean (dandrea@duo-county.com), February 07, 2001.

Diane:

When I was property searching I looked at maybe 50-60 farms. This one was the only one which 'called' to me. I knew immediately it was the one to beat.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 07, 2001.

Hi, The best piece of advice that I can think of is to be sure to use a Title Company and get "Title Insurance" this will protect you, just in case there is a problem with the paperwork or the title. I used this even when I bought my property from a relative. They research the title to verify that there are no leans or any other judgments on the property or against the owner. If anything does pop up later the insurance is required to pay you for the costs that you would be out.

I hope that this will help you out. Good luck with your property purchase. Remember...There are always things that are going to come up with being a homesteader. Don't worry about the small stuff, you can handle them, Just go out and do it. Congratulations and good luck....Rory and Sandra in Southeast Texas

-- Rory (S.E.TX) (rory@readynet.net), February 07, 2001.

Everyone else gave most of the advice I would have, title insurance, etc. I would also say make sure you will have water! you can live without utilities, but not without plenty of good clean water. Years ago, my husband and I "roughed it" in a little 12x16 cabin we built on our 20 acres, while we built our house. No electricity, no phone...we were so happy!! It was cramped, of course, but we both worked and were outside working on the house 99% of our waking hours anyway.Sometimes when I look back, I would have to say it was the best time of our lives. We were young, of course, I was 23 and dh 28. We had been married 5years, and had paid off the land, and sold our house in town. Our oldest son was conceived the first night in that little cabin! I think what made it so great was being on our own land, of course, but also the no phone. We both had very interfering parents, and they couldn't reach us by phone, and didn't want to drive that long dirt road out to the middle of nowhere just to bother us. We had the house done enough so that our son came home to it...we had our bed and his bassinette set up in the utility room, because it was done, and the carpeting wasn't down in the bedrooms yet, and the siding went up after we were already in, but it was fun, and I have never felt so proud of anything else in our lives. Of course, once they found out I was pregnant, our parents were very concerned, and pulled strings with the power company and phone company and we got power months earlier than we expected (wanted?)and they were always showing up to make sure I "wasn't doing too much"! You should of seen their faces when they drove up and dh and I were rolling trusses! But I say DO IT!! You'll be surprised at how much closer it can bring you two! Good luck! Kathie

-- Kathie in Western Washington (twinrosefarm@worldnet.att.net), February 07, 2001.

Pauline: I'm also a cynic. I believe in the saying: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is." My advice: Surround yourself with professionals who will be representing you. If you really want to make an offer on the place, load it with contingencies. Make it contingent on clear title; legal access; availability of water, power and other utilities you require; approved building site; approved septic design; surveyed boundaries.

You say he is subdividing. What are the local subdivision codes? Will the subdivision be legally recognized by the agency who will issue your permits? In my county the smallest exempt segregation is 80 acres. Anything smaller must go through the county planning review process or it is considered an illegal subdivision and they will not issue permits on it.

Is he going to build his cabin on the only feasible building site? I would strongly urge you to require a survey. If this is a new segragation, a survey may be required by the title company before they issue title insurance.

Not to slam real estate agents, but don't expect to get reliable information from one. As a licensed land surveyor helping people resolve boundary conflicts, one of the most common phrases I hear is, "But my real estate agent told me...." Your real estate agent will only tell you what you want to hear in order to get that commission. (Generally speaking)

Make your offer contingent on a feasibility study and then hire a local knowledgeable land planner to look into all the aspects to be sure you can use the property as you desire. This is a good investment. If you actually purchase the property, most of what you will have spent in studies will be for work you will have to do anyway.

We're about to embark on the same voyage, God willing.

Hope it goes well for you.

-- Skip Walton (sundaycreek@gnrac.net), February 07, 2001.

We didnt "rough it" while we were building so I cant really give much advice on that, I can give a couple of pointers on the construction of your house though so you can avoid a few of the snags we ran into...

Three things really held us up, the first was clearing the land for the house, I had a heck of a time getting access to the property and with clearing the land. It took us over a year to just do that. We have a lot of serious pine trees so we had to first clear a path to the site and then clear the site itself, even now 5 years later we have a bumper crop of stumps and piles of trees around the clearing.
Second, absolutely before you get started on construction make sure you have power to the site, not having power tools for a long time was a major pain and slowed us up.
Third, you are going to need water, either a well or a nearby stream you can pump from, mixing up concrete on site without lots of abundant water really messed me up. We had to truck our water in (on a unimproved dirt track) a tank on a 8 by 12 foot flatbed trailer and we were always running out.

There were other snags, but those were the major ones that I could have avoided if I had thought about it before hand.

Hope it helps a bit
Dave

-- Dave (Ak) (daveh@ecosse.net), February 08, 2001.

I'm very interested in this thread since I have bought some land and plan to build on it...we plan to build a pole barn first and "rough" finish a 16 x 18 section for temporary living quarters while we build. This way we can work on the new home w/o traveling and plus store all our things in the barn. Our dogs we have make renting a problem since many places frown on pets and make you pay deposits. In readying our present home for sale, we replace the kitchen counter/sink and bathroom fixtures; these we will "transplant" into the barn living quarters.

Good luck. I also agree on the above suggestions...also maybe get a perc test to make sure the land will take a septic system. If you can hold out for a season or two, it will help you see the land with and w/o foilage and expose any faults that may be hidden.

-- JimR (jroberts1@cas.org), February 08, 2001.

Pauline,

"Mountain land" makes me think of shallow soil and lots of rocks. You migt take along a shovel and dig a couple of holes here and there just to check it out. If it is really rocky, you can always make raised beds. If it is the place you want to be, make sure you have the basics {water, access, etc.} and every thing else can usually be worked with somehow.

-- Mona in OK (jascamp@ipa.net), February 08, 2001.

Thank you all So much!

Isn't it great to have a place to ask about something like this and find a whole bunch of other people who have already "been there"! We sure do appreciate all the advice. A lot of stuff I hadn't even thought of like the title insurance and all the suggestions Skip made.

This will probably be just one of many places we look at but it feels good to finally be making a start.

We haven't made a date to go up there yet. It depends on Ken's army schedule and when his parents can come and stay a night here to feed the animals. So I have some time to research more. I'll get a hold of the book you mentioned Ken.

There are roads in place. The new one he's putting in is just a short cut to the highway. Also some of the tracts are already sold and some of the people already have their septic, well and power in.

The man said there are plenty of springs and streams to get water from while roughing it. In fact the 50 acres he had advertised has a 50 foot waterfall.

I loved reading your accounts of roughing it. I met hubby when I was a medic in the Army. We're both pretty familiar with sleeping on the ground, in ditches in the snow, the tarmac of remote airstrips, no hot meals for weeks on end.... toilets that are an oil drum topped by a piece of plywood with a rough hole cut out of the middle and not even a screen around them! Having to nod "Good Morning" to passing Belgian soldiers while sitting there trying to concentrate!! (can't believe I did that now, but at the time there was no choice.) Those were the days. We have some great memories. I actually miss living out of a rucksack sometimes. A camper would be the lap of luxury compaired to some of the situations we've been in.

Well, thank you all again. You've given us a lot to think about and prepare for.

Jim and Skip I hope all goes smoothly for you in your building transactions. Keep us posted on your progress.

Our best wishes,

Pauline and Ken in NC

-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), February 08, 2001.

Pauline

Mountain land can be a good investment. I'd suggest making sure the piece your getting isn't prone to flooding via run offs, also get a sample of soil and have the locale county agent test it. There's a lot of great suggestions already posted so I'll not rehash them.

We started out in a 16x24 building and it took 5 years to get the 3 bedroom, 2-bath we have today. But I can say this. Owning beats the alternative.

A good camper can be had here in NC for around $350-650. In fact I heard on swap shop a 1987 camper sleeps 6 with heat and a/c for $600 or best offer. That would be easier to take at night than a tent. TRUST me Tent living gets old in 3 days. (WE Know)

Good luck in whatever you decide.

-- Kenneth in N.C. (wizardsplace13@hotmail.com), February 08, 2001.

Find about land use rules, zoning, etc. not just for now but what may be planned for the future!!! and don't take the county government's word for it! check with the newspapers around there and other land owners. All over the country governments are trying to sneak different types of zoning in on folks.

-- Suzy in BAma (slgt@yahoo.com), February 08, 2001.

I am retired military too, and we just moved onto our place last year. We bought it 13 yrs ago, and kept wanting to move . I found it in a newspaper ad. I would advise you to get an appraisal of the land, insure that any sales agreement includes a specified right-of-way for ingress/egress (also the deed), get a perk test in the area where you want your home (some areas won't pass). On the surface, it sounds like you have found a nice place..just check all the factors. Oh, and get any and all promises, etc, in writing! BTW: we love it on our place. My wife says " Most people go to a resort for a week or two, but we LIVE in one".

-- Wayne (wallen328@aol.com), February 08, 2001.

For living accommodations while building, check on used mobile homes. Most have been trashed, but are still liveable.

-- Ken S. in WC TN (scharabo@aol.com), February 09, 2001.

Wayne,

When did you retire? Did you have a good idea of where you wanted to settle before you bought your land?

Ken still has 5 years. It seems like a long time but we've been here 4 years and it's flown by. At first I thought it was a bit too soon to be looking at land. Heck we didn't even know what state we were going to settle in. Kind of had it narrowed down to the mountains of North Carolina, Virginia, or Vermont.

Did you find yourself getting antsey toward the end of your service? I'm having a terrible time at the moment. It's never really bothered me before but I suddenly want to be done with it and know for certain where we're going to be. It's like our life is on hold.

Thanks for the info on the price of used campers, Ken. We have decided to go that route or a used trailer.

Now we just have to get up there and check the place out. Hubby wants to change the tires on the explorer before making the journey though. They weren't on the re-call but we don't trust them. I 'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again for all the advice.

Pauline NC

-- Pauline (tworoosters_farm@altavista.com), February 09, 2001.

Whether you buy it or not, it'll be an ADVENTURE to go and see. (HA-HA!) Good advice, so far, especially the title company. If you're going to go look-see, dig a shovel of dirt while you're there to have soil tested by your county ag. agent. After you examine the property, and exchange pleasantries with the owner, take a short drive through the surrounding country. There could be other surprises close by. A major auto salvage yard, just beyond the hill... or another one we encountered in our searching: A lovely prison about a mile and a half further up the road. These things are not neccessarily bad, but they might make it harder to resell, should you feel the road calling again in two or three years time. Print out a couple maps from encarte (?) on the web. (aerial photo, and geo. survey maps). Take them with you to mark, and have the owner show you the real property corners, if possible. The realtor, one time, told us repeatedly about 2 or 3 springs on a hundred acre piece we looked at, but after trekking the entire parcel a COUPLE times, he apologized, and said he wasn't sure, anymore. Look closely, but have fun. If your husband tells you later that he had a GOOD FEELING while he was there, believe him. It might mean "pack the two roosters and GO for it".

-- Action Dude! (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

By the way, we did the camp out while you build - thing... I suppose it was fun. We had a kit home (stick construction) from Miles Homes, and built it ourselves, (with the help of a couple good friends).

-- Action Dude ! (theactiondude@yahoo.com), February 09, 2001.

I have never been on the buying end of property sales, but have been on the selling end. My family's ranch was broken up and two siblings sold all theirs ~ I handled the sales as they were out of state. After many sales, experience tells me to urge you to definitely get the title insurance, even if you have to pay for it yourself. I have lived on this property for my entire life and just last year a 47 year old lein was found on the place. I never knew about it despite being here my entire life and going through an extensive legal fight concerning the land a few years ago! During that fight, I had to do a thorough search of the property records and this is the one thing that neither I nor two title companies found at the time. I'm not covered, but the buyers are.

Also, I was never offended by people asking to put stipulations on buying the property like "sale is contingent on finding water" or "sale is contingent on septic perk test being approved." I mean, I knew they would find water, so what did I have to worry about? I figured that the very worst thing that would happen is that someone wouldn't find water in one spot, so the next person that wanted to buy it would know where NOT to drill! LOL! Now, if the list of contingencies was an arm long, I probably would have passed those people by in favor of someone with only 3 or 4 contingencies. Sixteen contingencies would have made me think that the people were just too picky and would have eventually found something they didn't like and then back out of the sale after stringing me along for 8 months (yes, that happened once).

Also, I'd suggest talking to as many of the people who've already bought there as you can. They've "been there, done that", right?

Otherwise, good luck! And if you can, I'd buy now and get a jump on planning for your new home!

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), February 11, 2001.

We originally retired in a small college town about 11 miles from here. We knew a lot of people there from shared interests. I was raised in the country and had always wanted to go back to it. Luckily for me, my wife agreed. We knew we wanted privacy, and lots of nature around us. We bought 145 acres of (mostly) undeveloped land. Over the 13 yrs we owned it, I built roads and two ponds on the place, as well as a small (30x30) two-story baarn/garage. We wanted to move out, but were hampered by the costs of two kids in college and the attendant increase in credit card debt that we accrued in that endeavor. About three years ago, we decided we were going to 1. Get out of debt, and 2. Move to our place. We set a time limit of 5 years. We are now in year three. We converted the barn/garage into a home (still in progress) and have lived in it for over a year now. We paid off all the credit cards. All we owe now is on my wife's car, but we figured we would always have to have a car payment. We have paid for the house as we went, so have no mortgage. It has not been an easy thing to do, but we feel so much more free than we had for a long time. We still are dependent on buying propane, but hope to eliminate that before too long, as we have gas on our property. I have to get the money to drill and cap it, and then we are, for all intents, totally independent, as we use solar electricity and have a well and cistern for water, as well as a septic system for waste. The place you described sounded like it was very nice. Just be careful and get everything in writing, and I mean everything. Good Luck!! Wayne

-- Wayne in Kentucky (wallen328@aol.com), February 11, 2001.

It seems to me that the most difficult thing to predict, and the thing that you have the least control over, is property taxes. Since we bought our land here in SW Wisconsin in 1999, the property taxes have gone up quite a bit (26% from last year). We are renting while we build, mostly because I telecommute for a large corporation and needed a decent office with several phone lines. (The building experience I'll save for another posting).

I have to say our biggest concern for the future is that in a few years from now, after having put our blood, sweat, and tears into building a homestead, we could be forced to sell because the taxes will be unaffordable. Every building we want to put up, even a wood shed, will mean a tax increase. People around here joke (well, maybe it's not a joke) that you want to be sure to take down any visible deer stands before the tax assessor comes.

-- Jane Pilsworth (ladyjane@mwt.net), February 12, 2001.