In a recent thread the concept of the necessity to endure temporal punishment for sins forgiven, whether in this world or the next (Purgatory) were mentioned. A comment was made to the effect that nowhere in the “revised” Bible, non-Catholic Christians use, could any references to the above be found. As 2 Mac. 12:43-46 does not hold any water with some of our distinguished visitors, as they have deprived themselves of the full knowledge of wisdom and truth; the following scriptural references from the King James Version of the Bible might be helpful in shedding some light:

2 Sam. 12:13-14; Matt. 3:11-12; Matt. 5:25-26; Matt. 12:32; Matt. 18:23-25; Luke 12:47-48; Luke 12:58-59; John 20:21-23 together with Matt. 18:18; 1 Cor. 3:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Phil. 2:10; Col. 1:24; Heb. 12:5; Heb. 12:14; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet. 3:19; Rev.5:2-3; Rev. 21:27.

Due to the risk of losing some readers to boredom, I chose not to paste the actual scriptural passages here. I also did not want to use up an inordinate amount of space on those who would not read them under any circumstances. Each reference listed relates in one way or another, to the concept of purifying one’s self in this world, and/or the next, in order to satisfy Our Saviour’s need for sanctification.

I would ask all of you to indulge me one small privilege! For the record, I am placing this post in all threads with the word “Purgartory” in their title. I hope this does not confuse anyone when reading recent responses to the forum.

St. James and Mary, Our Blessed Mother, help us to accept whatever our Maker will appoint at the supreme moment of our final breath, and as always, pray for us!

Ed

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 25, 2001

Answers

Jmj

Thanks, Ed, for this service you have provided. May I join in your effort?
To make it easier for folks to access the passages you specified in the KJV, I am providing the following links:
2 Sam. 12:13-14; Matt. 3:11-12; Matt. 5:25-26; Matt. 12:32; Matt. 18:23-25; Luke 12:47-48; Luke 12:58-59; John 20:21-23 together with Matt. 18:18; 1 Cor. 3:15; 2 Cor. 5:10; P hil. 2:10; C ol. 1:24; H eb. 12:5; Heb. 12:14; Heb 12:23; 1 Pet. 3:19; Rev.5:2-3; Rev. 21:27.

Now, if visitors would be so kind as to read and reflect on these references, perhaps they will come away with some questions for you. (In some cases, it may not be clear, without a clarification, how a verse supports our belief in Purgatory.)

St. James, pray for us. St. Judas Maccabeus, pray for us.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 25, 2001.

PS: Please disregard the constant underscore above. There really are about 20 separate links, separated by the semi-colons.

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), February 25, 2001.

Dear Alex:

Please read all the quotes from the KJV that point to Purgatory. If you don't see how they relate, come back after prayer and meditation, and we can talk about it.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), February 26, 2001.

Like "Eucharist," only appears in the original, we get the word "purgatory" (from which we also get "purge") from latin. The concept of Purgatory is in there, as the quotes show. To go to Purgatory, you must be saved. If you are in Purgatory, there is no way you can go anywhere except Heaven...your reward is ALREADY guaranteed. "Saved" and "Purgatory" do not exclude eachother.

.............................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Did you actually READ what I said? Did you actually BOTHER to learn just what the belief about Purgatory is that you're arguing against? No, I suppose you didn't.

that's it...it's taken one day and I'm through defending you. I was hoping you might have seen that making up stuff about the Church and ignoring scripture quotes weren't going to get you anywhere and changed your tactics...but a few hours later...same old jr again.

'tis a pity. ...................................

-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 27, 2001.

Junior is the blind, trying to lead the blind into a ditch. Junior has no clue, what the Bible means, or where Purgatory is mentioned. He has no concept of a JUST GOD, and how sin is forgiven through Christ. He believes the words of false prophets, men without a Church. His own ancestors all were good Catholics! False prophets came and took him away from the Catholic Church. Our Saviour clearly predicted this would happen, apparently Jr never read those passages in the gospels.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 28, 2001.

What did St. Paul tell St. Timothy [2 Tim 4]?

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but, having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths."

I become so sad when I reflect on how these words perfectly describe so many of our ex-Catholic friends and relatives, particularly Alex and other visitors here.

Let us pray our hearts out for them in this holy Lent and always.
Mary, Mother of Christ, pray for all your spiritual children.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 01, 2001.

JFG,

That passage weighs heavily on me as well. So many things in todays culture were explained so long ago.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 03, 2001.

John,

Where would I find clarification on the verses listed above that support purgatory? I have read all of the listed verse's above (thank you Ed for suppling them) but still do not see where purgatory comes in.

Thanks for any help you can give me.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.

Kathy

Have you read the Catholic Encyclopedia on Purgatory? Try it, it may help you some. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.

Hi Fred,

I have looked in the Catechism and read there about purgatory. What I am having difficulty understanding is how the scriptures refer to purgatory. Some seem like they are referring to hell, while others do not make sense to me at all in regards to purgatory.

Thanks anyway Fred.

BTW Fred, I have taken the verses listed above and went to my Bible for more info, but am still left with a feeling of (huh)?

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.

Kathy

More: http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/prgtry01.htm

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.

Kathy

Let me ask you this. Would GOD want you to be with him covered with all of your veinial sins? That is precisely what purgatory does. It cleanses the soul for entry to heaven. You are getting confused with hell and that is why you cannot understand this. Hel is for damnation eternally and purgatory is for final preparation to entering heaven. To be cleansed "as if by fire" should not be taken literally. It means cleansing only. in olden days and still today we do clean things with fire. You do that with an oven and also on the grill you can clean the grates with the heat and flames of the fire to purify them again prior to cooking the next meal. Does this analogy help?

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.

Kathy

It is those who are in "LIMBO" that we are praying for to enter heaven. That is what Maccabbees teaches - It is ok to pray for the dead in limbo that their souls will be saved.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.

Well, actually, I think their souls are saved, just in need of final purification because the Catechism teaches purgatory is for believers. (Just trying to bridge the language barrier, Fred)

I understand purgatory to be a place of refinement -- the carnal man finally dies to all its fleshly lusts. Remember, the Lord commands us to die to ourselves. Some of us WILL NOT do that in this lifetime! Some will, the martyrs are a case in point.

The Reformers (especially Lutheran) took to the view that once you are saved, you are complete, and there is nothing further to be done. He said, "You are a snow covered pile of dung, and will always be a snow covered pile of dung." So there is not any REAL holiness planted IN us, just the cloak of Jesus' righteousness placed ON us.

I just recently listened to a debate between James White (arch-anti- Catholic and Art Sippo). James seems to think that all Protestants hold to the 'once-saved always saved' doctrine, BUT that is simply not true. Many Protestants do not believe that doctrine; Assembly of God; Church of the Nazarene; Wesleyan. Wesleyan doctrine on justification/sanctification is very close to Catholocism. However, they never address what happens to the carnal (or un-sanctified) nature at the death of the believer.

If what James White believes is true, why are we commanded to confess our sins, since we are already complete in God's sight? There would be no need for this under his theology. Why are we commanded to fast since we are already as holy as we will ever be?

Many many problems with the "once saved always saved doctrine" in light of the multitude of scriptures that state we will be "judged according to our deeds" (Jesus own words), that the Lord will "spew us out of His mouth for being lukewarm," the scripture that says, "A vine that does not produce fruit is cut off and cast into the fire."

Also, the separation of the sheep from the goats parable -- Jesus says you will be judged by what "you did and didn't do" not by whether you said the magic prayer during an altar call!

James White focuses ALL of his attention on the book of Romans but refuses to even discuss the multitude of scriptures handed to him by Mr. Sippo.

You see, purgatory is really at the heart of a greater matter -- our justification, how it is achieved, and what is our part in it. The Reformers were DEAD WRONG if purgatory exists!! That's why this is such a BIGGIE!

Here's the site if anyone is interested. Click on "Justification."

http://www.straitgate.com/rcc/debates.htm#

Gail

P.S.

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.

For my Protestant brothers/sisters out there, the Early Church Fathers, INCLUDING Augustine, believed in purgatory. I can provide quotes if anyone is interested!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.

Gail

If Protestants think they can just walk into heaven with out being Purged as if by fire for our veinial sins as it Clearly told in scripture, then they are in for one hell of a surprise. It is all to clear and widely accepted that we will need prification prior to entry. And if the sinful nature we have is too heavy then we may never see heaven but will be mired in purgatory forever or maybe in the outer fringes of hell. What is common sense needs to prevail, not greed.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 26, 2002.

Gail and Fred,

Thank you for your responses.

Gail, I would be interested if you could provide those quotes or if you can direct me where to go to find them. That would be great.

Also Gail, thanks for listing the stairgate site, I haven't checked it out yet but I will as soon as I get a chance.

I am going to go back into the archives, I haven't looked at all of them yet, just a few. This one caught my eye because I trust the info coming from John. Actually it was Ed L. who started the thread, but I am not too familiar with his posts (sorry Ed).

I appreciate your comments Gail and Fred.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 26, 2002.

Hi MaryLu:

Here's the purgatory quotes.

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/purg.htm

Also, here is a transcript of the Primacy of Peter between James White and J. Gallegos. VERY GOOD!

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/papacy.htm

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.

Whoops, Sorry. I meant, "Kathy," not "MaryLu"

I've been posting things all over the place. I guess I forgot where I was and who I was talking to!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 26, 2002.

If anyone wants a very insightful explanation about Purgatory from an ex-Protestant minister, then I would recommend this link It is Scott Hahn's explanation of Purgatory as a Holy Fire of Love which burns away our attachments, imperfections, and venial sins so that we may enter Heaven pure.

God Bless

-- (sacerdos@hotpop.com), June 26, 2002.

Kathy, if there is confustion to my original post, I apologize. Maybe if I broke up the passages and give you a brief outline of what they are saying it will help you better understand them in the context of Purgatory/cleansing/suffering to purge temporal punishment due as a result of past forgiven sins. So here goes:

Purification is necessary for entry into heaven - Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27 - But how are we purified then?

An intermediate state of purification exists. We call it Purgatory - Mt 5:26; Lk 12:58-59

There are different degrees of expiation of sins, some are more serious than others - Lk 12:47-48

Souls of the faithful departed can be aided by prayer - 2Mac 12:45

Salvation is ours, but only through purification by fire - 1Cor 3:15

There exists a temporary agony after death which involves purification - 1 Cor 3:15; Mt 5:25-26

Christ preached to spiritual beings not in this world. Who could this be if there were only Heaven and Hell? Souls in Heaven don't need preaching - the are saved. Souls in Hell don't need preaching - they are damned for eternity. There must be a third place where souls require preaching. Theses souls are referred to "prisoners" and the implication is they one day will be freed. - 1 Pet 3:19

Nothing unclean shall enter heaven. Once temporal punishment is due for past sins committed, how then do we clease ourselves? - Rev 21:27

Sacrifice for the dead - 2 Mac 12:43-46 - Why sacrifice for the dead if there is only Heaven (those who are saved) or Hell (those who are damned for eternity with no hope of salvation).

There is a reality beyond the two realms of Heaven and Earth a place between or near - 2 Cor 5:10; Rev; 5: 2;3 Rev; 5:23; Phil 2:10; Matt 18: 23-25 Luke 23:42

No forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come. - Mt 12:32

"Extra" suffering exists for other's sake to aid in their purification. - Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14

I hope this helps you.

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), June 27, 2002.

Thanks, Ed.
I had begun to prepare a message like yours last night, since Kathy asked me to do so. But it got too late for me to finish, so I suspended it. I'm happy that you, who provided the initial citations, were able to come back with this good information for Kathy.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 27, 2002.

Ed

Thanks. Excellent post. It also helped me too. Got it all in order again.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcb@heartland.com), June 27, 2002.

Hi everyone:

I wonder if "Abraham's Bosom," or "paradise" is purgatory. That is a distinctively 'third place' mentioned in the Bible. Abraham's Bosom was where the Saints of Old were until Jesus set them free. It's also where Lazarus was in the parable of the Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I wonder could purgatory be the same as "Abraham's Bosom." ?? I think I read somewhere (maybe Scott Hahn) that this is so.

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 27, 2002.

Gail, ever since the Crucifixion/Resurrection, Abraham’s bosom has been synonymous with Heaven. Prior to the Crucifixion/Resurrection, souls of all departed descended into Sheol. In Sheol there were two places where souls could wait for the Redeemer who had not yet come - a place for the damned; and a place for the holy (sometimes referred to as Abraham’s bosom). At the point of human death, Jesus “descended into Hell” or Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek) which is also often referred to as Limbo. All of these terms should not to be confused with either Heaven, Hell or Purgatory, which clearly exist separate and apart from the Sheol that existed before the Resurrection. Sheol was a place where all of the dead, both evil or righteous awaited the Redeemer who released them to their permanent destinations at the Resurrection of Our Lord.

These two sites will help to explain it to you in more depth:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01055a.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p122a5p1.htm

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), June 27, 2002.

Ed,

Thank you very much for taking the time to break up the passages. It was very helpful.

I will go back and reread those verses from scripture, and am more confident that I will have a better understanding of where purgatory is coming from.

BTW, your post was not written in a confusing way. I just could not see where purgatory was coming from.

I am confident that I have a better understanding of it now.

Thanks again Ed!

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), June 27, 2002.

Kathy, when reading the scripture passages, the key to understanding the concept of Purgatory is to remember that all past sins (both mortal and venial) and venial sins present on the sould at time of death need to be purged or cleansed from the soul in order to gain entry into the Kingdom of Heaven (Heb 12:14; Rev 21:27 ). God finds sin so abhorrent, He offered up His only begotten Son as sacrifice in lieu of.

However, what many Christian faiths fail to acknowledge or recognize is even though the sin has been forgiven, the “sin debt” must yet be paid for, in full, through purification either here on earth while alive or in the next world in order to be allowed into the presence of God. We have mentioned the analogy in the past of a little boy (soul) who breaks the neighbour’s window (sins against God) and when his father (God the Father) marches him over to the neighbour’s house (Kingdom of God) to apologize (repent/atone for past/present sin). Even though the neighbour (God) forgives him, if the father (God the Father) wants to teach the young boy (soul) a valuable lesson in life (love of God) and shape him and make him “whole” (destined to be with God for eternity) or responsible, then he will make the boy (soul) earn the money (purge the stain of sin from the soul in Purgatory) to make restitution (full purification) for the cost (pain inflicted) of (on) the neighbour’s window (God’s love).

Also, we must not forget that scripture tells us we can do penance here on earth through prayer and fasting in the practice of our faith for ourselves and for others both living and dead (2 Mac. 12:43-46; Rev. 8:3). That is why prayer and fasting are sanctifying. They makes us and others holy and therefore attractive in God's eyes.

God bless.

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), June 28, 2002.

Hi Ed and Everyone:

The Lord does prescribe penances to ALL Christians, even though they not call it that, or they may not have the Catholic understanding of it.

I KNOW I have been disciplined by the Lord MANY MANY times for acts of disobedience, or sins, trespasses. I have learned to love the chastening hand of the Lord because He is my loving Heavenly Father, and chastens for our own good! And the more purified we are in this life, the easier we can hear His voice, and experience His glorious presences. I worry about Christian friends of mine who NEVER seem to be chastised! Makes me wonder if they are legitimate children.

Also, I think I prefer the chastening of the Lord more than I would the penances subscribed by priests (not knocking that at all). It's just simply because the chastening of the Lord "gets your attention" and is more meaningful, at least to me.

Ed, I'm a little confused as to what you said, "we have to pay our sin debt." The way I understood Catholic theology is that the Lord pays our eternal punishments, but we are soul must undergo REAL sanctification, or purification, or purging. Are we saying the same thing?

Thanks, and Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), June 29, 2002.

To the top (for Ed's notice).

-- (@ .), June 30, 2002.

Gail, there are two consequences to sin (CCC 1472). The first consequence deprives us of communion with God and renders us incapable of gaining eternal happiness (in the case of mortal sin). Jesus’ redemptive action on the Cross enables or makes possible, our re-unification to God. The second consequence however is often ignored or sometimes confused with the first; and it is: any stain or as I call it, “sin debt”, from past sins or present venial sins that remain on our soul at the time of death that has not been removed through good works and/or indulgences here on earth, must be purged or purified from our souls in order for us to gain access to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus’ redemptive action on the Cross does not purge or remove this stain which has been brought about by our sin. His dying on the Cross for us enables us to be reunited with God but a complete “cleansing” is still required in order for this to happen. This is why indulgences for ourselves and for those who have passed on are so vitally important. A simple act on only spending one half hour before the Blessed Sacrament in adoration, for example, if done correctly can release a soul from Purgatory. Can you imagine what joy we give a soul at the moment he/she comes into th presence of God when we carry out this act of love?

We are told a cleansing fire is required over and above the actions of the Cross, “If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.” (1 Cor. 3:15) and “These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.” (1 Peter 1:7).

Hope this helps! God bless,

-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), July 01, 2002.

-- (@ .), July 01, 2002.

bump for Rod Rodriguez

Pax Christi. <><

-- Anna <>< (Flower@youknow.com), February 24, 2003.