Female Popegreenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Is it true that there was once a female pope? And pretended to be a man. If it is , where can i find some information on "her"? Or maybe you or anyone can give information on her. Thank you in advance.sincerely yours Sam xxx
-- Samuel Cole (samuel.cole@pandora.be), February 28, 2001
Well, your address is apt. If this is a sincere question, the name is supposedly "pope Joan" but she's kind of the religious version of an urban legend. We know who every Pope was, right back to Peter (the only religion about this old who knows who all it's leaders were back to the start) and there was no "pope joan". But opening a discussion on "pope joan" is to open a pandora's box, so let's just hope this answer finishes the thread (I seem to recall us getting tied up with this once before, but I could be mistaken)................................
-- Anthony (fides_spes_et_caritas@hotmail.com), February 28, 2001.
Sending a copy of answers given some time ago:WAS THERE A FEMALE POPE? greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
I HAVE READ IN DIFFERENT BOOKS THAT THERE WAS A WOMAN CHOSEN AS POPE IN THE MIDDLE AGES, IS THIS A HISTORICAL FACT?
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (ponce31@oaxl.telmex.net.mx), November 09, 1998 Answers I once read of such a thing as well and I don't believe all that I read, but........ From what I gather, she had been posing as a man ofr a number of years and was only revealed to be a woman when she gave birth during mass. There was also some mention of her statue once being somewhere in Vatican city before being removed by a subsiquent pontiff as he considered it to be 'inappropriate'.
-- Otieno Stanford-Asiyo (notime2fear@hotmail.com), November 09, 1998.
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Dear Enrique, The previous answer to your question is incorrect. There was never a woman pope. There was a pope John VIII, who died in 882, and over 400 years after his death, a legend appeared that he had been a woman. No reputable historian, Catholic or otherwise, believes the legend has any merit. If you have any other questions about the papacy, though, I encourage you to ask. Yours in Christ, Chris Butler
-- Chris Butler (chrisbutler48@hotmail.com), November 09, 1998.
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In a work by a reptuable historian, Dr. J. H. Merle D'Aubigne he cites the fact that there was a woman pope called Pope Joan. She dressed as a man, and people only found out the difference when she went into labor during a "solemn Procession". He says that a stature of the woman was placed on a certain street in Rome and that Future Popes wouldn't even walk down that street. Anyone wanting the full history of this event can E-Mail me and I will E-Mail you back the Historical document. Friends in Christ Ray Pitts
-- Ray Pitts (raypitts@sprintmail.com), December 10, 1998.
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Ray Pitts has been kind enough to e-mail me his information on the possibility of a female pope. I'd like to respectfully point out a few problems with the information he provided. I said, "No reputable historian, Catholic or otherwise, believes the legend has any merit." Notice I say "believes," present tense. There were some historians who fell for the legend in the past. The historical information that Ray sent me is an excerpt from a book written in the mid-1800s, as Ray himself admits! Moreover, a reading of the pages Ray sent me shows the 1800s writer is trying to attack the Church in every way possible (there's very little balance from what I saw). Ray Pitts has pointed out that he himself is not anti-Catholic, and I believe him; I merely think the book probably is. At any rate, even in this book, the writer does not come out and say there was a woman pope! Let's look at the only information on the subject Ray's excerpt provides (words in uppercase are my own emphasis): "It is about this period that TRADITION places on the papal throne a woman named Joan, who had taken refuge in Rome with her lover, and whose sex was betrayed by the pangs of a childbirth during a solemn procession. But let us not needlessly augment the shame of the pontifical court. Abandoned women at this time governed Rome; and that throne which pretened to rise above the majesty of kings was sunk deep in the dregs of vice. Theodora and Marozla installed and deposed at their pleasure self- styled masters of the Church of Christ, and placed their lovers, sons, and grandsons in St. Peter's chair. These scandals, which are but too well authenticated MAY PERHAPS HAVE GIVEN RISE TO THE TRADITION OF POPE JOAN." That is all Ray's excerpt says on the subject. I've looked at it a couple of times and it sounds to me like the writer's saying that these *real* scandals of Theodora and Marozla gave rise to a *false* tradition (of Joan). Thus Ray hasn't done what he intended to do: provide a modern, reputable historian who believes the Pope Joan legend has merit. Moreover, it's not too clear even this writer from the 1800's thinks so! Anyone who wants a brief account of how the legend got started and a few details about the variants on it, see www.knight.org/advent/cathen/08407a.htm As far as Theodora supposedly owning the papacy, the actual story points very strongly to a divine hand guiding the papacy through history, but that's a whole other story. . . Yours in Christ, Chris Butler
-- Chris Butler (chrisbutler48@hotmail.com), December 11, 1998.
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of course there was female Pope Joan. If not why all the contraversy? Little men of Rome got caught with the pants down that's all. Jean B
-- jean bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.netj), May 15, 1999.
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dear jean: what are your historical sources?
because something is controversial does it mean it necessarily exists?
an example: some people say that we should worship on sunday, others say it should be on saturday, which side of the controversy is the truth?
another example: in the old days it was taught that the earth was flat and the center of the universe, then came the controversy, does that make the old teaching right? etc, etc.
ENRIQUE
-- ENRIQUE ORTIZ (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 16, 1999.
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Enrique, This MYTH has been thoroughly debunked at the urban legends homepage. Don't expect scholarly replies from people with a chip on their shoulder regarding the heirarchical church established by Christ.
-- ubi (ubi@petros.com), May 17, 1999.
-- Alberto Ponce (sabueso2@usa.net), March 01, 2001.
It seems that a pope giving Birth during a Mass would have been impossible to cover up and would have led to well documented accounts. So if that is the claim to 'prove' her existence I would suggest that it is just urban myth.However, if the claims are just the "pangs of childbirth" disrupted the mass then I thnk we can disprove at that point. The pope would have seen a 'well regarded' doctor. Someone who could be trusted and the church would not have been foolish enough to allow the discovery to get out. Leading to no story of a female pope.
-- Love Panda (dambra@breathe.com), February 09, 2002.
There was a book recently written in Germany about the female pope, if anyone isn interested in finding it. My Grandmother told my mother about it--she is going to send it when she gets the chance.
-- Melanie Saunders (joyfulgirl@bored.com), October 14, 2002.
Just read "Pope Joan". Discoverd this thread while looking for add'l info. I just wanted to point out that written history, especially specific history, is usually tailored to reflect the views of those in power at the time. See any Russian history book of the 20th century for a proof of this. As perceived by Donna Cross, the series of circumstances that make up Joan's life are at least pausible if not actual. And the statement about her need to see a physician which would have lead to her exposure does not take into consideration that she would probably have been the most medically knowledgeable person in the Vatican.
-- Tom Sigler (hroark@earthlink.net), November 09, 2003.
If you read the book 'Pope Joan' then you know he concluded at the end it was a fiction. Also you know he really didn't do a scolarly study of the subject.In Christ, Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), November 09, 2003.
I just wanted to point out that written history, especially specific history, is usually tailored to reflect the views of those in power at the time.isnt this the same as saying "uh, im sure it happened, consequently, i have no evidence. uh, the church must have burned the evidence, thats it. so you'll just have to take my 1400 years later speculation as fact..."
sorry buddy, not buying it
-- paul h (dontSendMeMail@notAnAddress.com), November 09, 2003.
Can't it be true that there was a female pope? Legend does have it that Pope Joan did exist and did die in childbirth. I take note that I did say Legend, but haven't some legends turned out to be real? Camelot was merely a myth but they found an area historians believe to be where camelot existed. I see your standpoint, but yet at the same time you have no basis to say that Pope Joan didnt exist.
-- Brian (Anonymous@Anonymous.AR), December 22, 2003.
Brian said: Can't it be true that there was a female pope? Legend does have it that Pope Joan did exist and did die in childbirth. I take note that I did say Legend, but haven't some legends turned out to be real? Camelot was merely a myth but they found an area historians believe to be where camelot existed. I see your standpoint, but yet at the same time you have no basis to say that Pope Joan didnt exist.In this case the legend is not founded in fact. It is fiction and historians have known it as fiction since around 1850. Sorry.
The principal proofs of the entirely mythical character of 'pope Joan' are (from the old Catholic Encyclopedia):
1. Not one contemporaneous historical source among the papal histories knows anything about her; also, no mention is made of her until the middle of the thirteenth century. Now it is incredible that the appearance of a "popess", if it was an historical fact, would be noticed by none of the numerous historians from the tenth to the thirteenth century.
2. In the history of the popes, there is no place where this legendary figure will fit in.
Historians also seem to know where the legend originated.
More info is here: http://www.newadven t.org/cathen/08407a.htm
In Christ, Bill
-- Bill Nelson (bnelson45@hotmail.com), December 22, 2003.