I just wanted to welcome you as our Lord welcomes all sinners to be saved. I would like to tell you how I know God is real. When I was younger I would often think of God, when it rained because that made me think that God was crying. As time went on and I got into highschool, I was a sophmore and the temptations began. I was determined not to drink my whole life. I didnt know that my flesh liked to sin, I didnt even know about that. My best friend had a party and I had my first drink, one shot of whisky and I was drunk, crawling on the floor, laughing it was a high that was so new to me. I became a party animal, stealing liquar, whatever I could to do for that feeling. I was a popular kid as far as dating the pretty girls, hanging with the popular kids, going to all the partys. I remeber vividly a girl whom I was attracted too, her name was Kristina. She was only a freshman, but she seemed so innocent and together. I told myself that I wouldnt do anything til I got married. She would call me and the cool guy that I was would play it off, like she was another girl. I remember one night we played mud football, and me and few freinds went to her house. My friends were egging me on about her, I knew that I could date her if I wanted. I wasnt ready for that, I wanted to party and just be a player. That night she was flirting with me so much, laying on me, she sure was pretty. As we were walking home from playing mud football the time came for a kiss, I gave in and I was hooked. Overtime we began to mess around more and more. More seeds of sin are now being made known to my flesh. My flesh had to be with her, its called lust. My sin nature is now in control, living in rebellion to God, whom I didnt think about much. My relationship with Kristina and alchohol began to destroy my life. My family life was already horribile. The only outlet was Kristina and drinking and freinds. Throughout my years in highschool, Kristina so conumed me that even though she was cheating on me, I would still take her back. My heart became so hard, because of the lies she would tell me. We both lived in sin, thats what everyone has in common apart from Jesus Christ, sin. Their sin nature dominates them. I was in a trap, I didnt how to get out. I was 15 when I started partying, thats about the time Kristina was in my life. Are relationship finally ended when I was 23. After everything I was very depressed person, though I had tears of a clown. My freinds from highschool began to move, and other friends would come and go. I felt that no one understood me, I was lost. I would read self help books, try this and that, no eternal results. We live in a nation of professionals all of wich cannot heal the human heart and hurts. When I was around 24 everything that was going on was destroying me, then I took a phone call about 2:30 in the morning, my brother called and said that he killed his girlfriend. I mean what else could happen, I didnt understand, my life was already in shambles from the seeds of sin. I hated life, my brother is a murderer and my whole world is in disarray. Then began the court hearings, not to mention I have been introuble with the law for stealing,3 DUIs, these are just the results of my sin. I almost died about three times, I was introuble all around. By Gods grace He kept me alive to know him who died for me. Eventually my brothers situation caused my family to break apart, my dad moved, my mom went another way, and my lil 15 old brother lived with a different family, seeing my little brother go through this was so hard. I went and lived with my best friend. At this time my mind was in such a fog, I could never think straight, I was bound to pornography, drinking and many other sins. By Gods grace there was always a quit voice that said hold on, I am going to use you for your family. I was like me, I got kicked out hs, fired 10 times, major looser, menataly distrought, that was the voice that kept me going. We would go see my brother in prison, I for sure thought that he was going to kill himself or be killed. I would have nightmares, party to forget all the pain of life, mess around with women, I was unstable.By Gods grace one day I went to see him with my family as some how we would get together to see him. I seen a difference in his eyes, I seen the peace of God. It turned out he allowed Jesus into his life, he was truly changed. Overtime the seeds of God began to change me, I didnt like to be around the seen as much, though I couldnt stop. My brother would always tell me Jesus is knocking at the heart of your door, but you have to let him in. I would think God I am a sinner,Iam not good enough for you. Thats the good news Jesus died for sinners to save and heal them to live holy lives. I was in such darkness, I didnt know how to get out. My pain was great it was hard to face people, without being fake about my life. I remeber throughout my life God sending me messengers, as I hope is happening in your lives. One night in my room, the judge of my soul said I am your judge and I will forgive you, I began to cry as Gods Spirit, the voice of hope healed me. Jesus set me free that night and brought me out of the storm, the darkness. He literly did open my eyes to every, evil sin that has kept me trapped and a slave. Jesus did what no professional can ever do, he heal my heart, gave me a sinner, the power to be a saint. Me and my family are together again, God is awsome and He is real. I love God who loves you and wants to help any of you who want to be saved, and healed. I came to know Jesus in 1998, my life has been blessed, every hard time was worth it to come to know that voice that told me to hold on. Jesus is alive, he is life, he is coming back, and he is the only way out of sin and death. He died for us, so that we wouldnt have to pay for our sins, we all deserve hell, though God is willing if you are to save you. Jesus loves you, read the Bible, talk to Jesus. There is so much joy with the Lord and He gives it to us free in exchange for sin wich destroys our lives. In Jesus own words come you who are burden laden and I will give rest to your souls. Throughout every pleasures-wich is tempory- time I was always lonely because I didnt know Jesus who alone satifys the soul!!! Now I can pray and God hears me because I listen to Him, there will always be troubles but I have peace in the storm now, because of Gods truth, love and mercy!! Have a blessed day, Jesus loves you! God is crying everytime someone hears the truth and refuses to repent of their sins to be saved!

-- Alex a follower of Jesus (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), March 06, 2001

-- Alex a follower of Jesus (Jesusislife@Christianemail.com), March 06, 2001

Answers

Jmj

Dear Alex,
Your testimony is very good. I am glad that Jesus helped you to climb out of the big hole that you were in.

Now you have to ask yourself, where does God want me to do his work? To whom does he want me to give this testimony?

I think that the obvious answer is that he wants you to give it to people who are in need of it, people who could benefit from it, people who are in that pit of slavery to tremendous vice and despair in which you found yourself.

That should tell you that you are making a big mistake in coming here and repeatedly "preaching to the choir." All the people who come here are sinners -- no doubt about that. But you do not see this forum populated by people who are in that pit of slavery to tremendous vice and despair in which you found yourself. There are other places in your life -- perhaps non-religious Internet chatting sites, definitely public high schools and colleges, youth clubs where drop-outs hang out, etc. -- where you could be doing a lot of good.

Yes, I'm afraid that I am telling you that you that you need to be in those places, not here -- because here you are not doing any good, and instead you are doing a lot of bad things. Without bearing any good fruit at all, you are harassing a bunch of decent people here who are already trying to do God's will. You need to get out elsewhere, among people who hate God (or don't know him) and who are not trying to do his will.

You have admitted the various ways in which your life was once completely out of control. Well, as your brother in Christ, I have to tell you that there is still an element inside you that is out of control -- and you need to "tame" it. Satan does not want you to go out into the world where you are truly needed, so he is tempting you to come here where your testimony is not needed at all. Please pray that God would help you to channel your energies in the right directions.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 07, 2001.

Hi Alex,

You have an awesome testimony. God is so good!

John said, "I have to tell you that there is still an element inside you that is out of control -- and you need to "tame" it.

The element inside you is a FIRE for Jesus. Keep letting the Holy Spirit guide you and not men.

John Said, "Satan does not want you to go out into the world where you are truly needed" ..... Well Satan doesn't want you to post here either.

Have you heard about the revival in Argentina? I've heard that God is doing awesome things there. And the same team that was there is going to be in Minneapolis, April 2nd to the 5th. If you are interested I will get more info for you.

Remember the prayer of Jabez......Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, "Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me!" And God granted him that which he requested. (1 Chronicles 4:10, KJV)

Father God, powerful,awesome God, because the desire of his heart is to become all that you want him to be, I offer Jabez' prayer for Alex, believing it will be Your will to hear and answer such a prayer. I ask that You bless Alex exceedingly, abundantly beyond all that he can ask or imagine, that his life and this prayer will be blessed to be a blessing in the lives of those he comes in contact with, and those he loves. Increase his territory, keep Your hand on him, guiding him every step of the way.Protect him from Satan and every evil spirit under Satans' command in the name of Jesus Christ, and with the blood of the cross, demolishing any stronghold attempting to influence his heart,mind, emotions or will against the knowledge of God. Father, thank You for all You have done and all You are going to do. In the powerful name of our Savior, Jesus Christ.Amen.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 08, 2001.

Most Glorious and Sacred Heart of Jesus,
In Your infinite mercy remember the souls of Alex Ruiz Jr, and Susan Magistro, and give them each the time and the graces to resolve their doubt in Your Holy Church on earth, where they first became born again as Christians. Let their hearts' despair in Your Church be turned again to trust and faith; even as they were from their holy baptism. The world and the devil came to harden their hearts as stone, in opposition to Your Divine Love and Will; and they did exchange the Gold of your Sacraments and Grace for broken vessels of clay. For the Joy of Communion with You and Your Saints, the Book alone consoles them; and now corrupting Your Holy Word, they live according to this world and not by Your Holy Gospel. Help them to find Your Truth once more.

Have mercy, Beloved Saviour; and gather them to You again, though their paths be far away from You. With Your Grace soften their hearts and make them faithful Children of God Your Almighty Father. May the Holy Spirit Whom You sent Your Church from the beginning take away all the evil that rendered the Word of God a fiction to their hearts. Let it be done, Most Sacred Heart! All this and their eternal salvation we beseech and pray! In blessed union with the Immaculate Heart of Mary Your Holy Mother, and Saint James Your Holy Apostle, AMEN /

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 08, 2001.

Find a new forum, Alex Jr. You picked the one that Jesus Christ loves; you've let yourself become a stumbling block to real Christians. You are never going to be saved while you blaspheme the Holy Catholic Church. You are truly a pathetic case. If Susan can tolerate you, she must not believe in Jesus Christ. It is all a sham, coming from you!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 08, 2001.

Eugeneous,

Jesus is alive and well, living in the hearts of all who have asked Him to be Lord over their lives. How dare you say that a heart that Jesus is living in, is hardened. Jesus is love!

Jesus commissioned His followers ..."Go and make disciples in all the nations, baptizing them (by their free will) in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." We are obeying His command.

You said,"they live according to this world and not by Your Holy Gospel. Help them to find Your Truth once more."... We live our lives according to the scriptures, you live according to your catechism and traditions (the World). You badger us to leave the "Body of Christ"..Jesus' Church. The words that come out of your mouth, show where your heart is...You talk about Catholicism...We talk about Jesus.

Eugene, you said,"Find a new forum, Alex Jr. You picked the one that Jesus Christ loves; you've let yourself become a stumbling block to real Christians. You are never going to be saved while you blaspheme the Holy Catholic Church. You are truly a pathetic case. If Susan can tolerate you, she must not believe in Jesus Christ. It is all a sham, coming from you! " ....Alex doesn't want you to die without Jesus in your heart..he shows real love.

Why not give in, Eugene? Ask Jesus to be the Lord of your life. Sure you will have to give up the booze, the fantasy about the lady next door, the gambling, whatever it is that comes before Jesus in your life........"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose."

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

SSM,

Not that Eugene needs anyone else to help speak his mind ;-), but you said,

We live our lives according to the scriptures, you live according to your catechism and traditions (the World)

I hate to say it, but what you consider the "scriptures" ARE Catholic Tradition! You just choose to look at part of those Traditions, and don't look at the parts you don't want to, like the rest of the Bible or the sacraments. Remember John 6, you can't just believe those teachings you want to, you need to follow ALL of Christ's teachings to be a Christian.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 09, 2001.

Not only that, Frank, but Susan distorts the truth when she says, "We live our lives according to the scriptures ..."
Why do I say this? Because
(1) she does not live according to ALL the scriptures, having put herself in league with the heretics who dumped seven Old Testament books, and
(2) she cannot even know if she is living "according to the scriptures" without Sacred Tradition and the Catholic Magisterium to instruct her as to the meaning of the scriptures.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 09, 2001.

Dear Susan (and Alex Jr),
Did it once occur to you two that I AM a complete and full disciple and follower of Jesus Christ? I gave my heart to Our Divine Lord at the age of 19; resolving not only to believe in Him, His Words, His Holy example. To believe His death and resurrection make me an heir to eternal life, to love my neighbor as I love myself. I was a passionate smoker, with no intention of ever quitting. At 20 years old, I smoked 2 packs a day, and enjoyed every single cigarette. It was far the greatest pleasure I knew, since I wasn't sexually active, and did not masturbate at all. (It's a sin)--

One night, in an act of love to Jeus Christ, I told Him in the privacy of my room: ''I'm offering up my cigarettes forever, Beloved Saviour. I really love them and I'm addicted to them. But to show You how much I love you. I'm going to smoke the very last cigarette of my life, right now. I'm going to savour it, finish it, and stamp it out. I will never again take another one in my mouth, because I love You, and I want to give up what is most enjoyable to me in the world. --For You.''

I've never again had a cigarette, and I would rather die than break my promise to Him. Now, does that make me a saint? No, and neither do I think works can save me. Only Christ is my Saviour. But I am second to no one in my love for Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Saviour. In the Mass I receive Him frequently; at Holy Communion. He speaks to me; but that isn't extraordinary, I don't think. He speaks to all Catholics, at the hour of Communion. I'm not alone.

Now I meet SSM, a fallen-away Catholic, who presumes to teach me how to ''give in'' to Jesus!

Let me repeat, Susan: Alex Jr must repent his sins, before he can hope to have Jesus in ''his heart,'' as you put it. Jesus does not abide in sinful hearts. In having borne false witness against the Catholic faith and rejected the grace of the Holy Spirit freely offered, he is is in sin. His words continually slander the Church and its followers. What's more, he doesn't act innocently. He actively lies. I can give you at least five big lies he's told here. When he was challenged on them, he retreated without an answer. You endorse him nonetheless, therefore your own credibility is zero. I don't speak from hate, for him or for you. I simply state facts and may God be your Judge. I don't pass my own judgment.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 09, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, folks. It seems to me that we are at another crossroads here. On a thread started by Chris Butler ten days ago, Chris wrote the following to Susan Magistro:

"[From message 1] ... Hi, Susan. I feel like you mean well. You have to understand though that we're kind of scratching our heads at how you can say that Alex is doing the Lord's work. Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm remembering something incorrectly, but as I recall, Alex has said that Cathollics put our faith in a building, that we think we can buy our salvation, and he has copied and pasted the same ridiculous story about a head of a Catholic University who had never read the Bible. ... We'd prefer it if you'd clearly say that this kind of behavior is wrong. It would help a lot to reassure us that your intentions are good. ... [From message 2, after Susan responded less than assuringly] ... The other day, the moderator told someone to take a week or two off. I thought this was pretty smart of the moderator to say. I'll say the same thing. If you aren't willing to call Alex's behavior wrong, I'd want you to take a few weeks off from the forum. Pray about this whenever seems right. If, after a few weeks off, you still wouldn't repudiate Alex's behavior, you're not in a good state for dialogue with Catholics at this time in your life. But if you are willing to repudiate his behavior, either now, or after a few weeks off, I hope you stick around ... ."

And so, I would ask Susan (now back after much less than "a few weeks") if she is "willing to call Alex's behavior wrong," so that we can know if she is "in a good state for dialogue with Catholics" [quoting both times from Chris]. I seem to notice, in Susan's new remarks, above, a continuation of her former improper attitude and her past encouragement of Junior's misbehavior -- but I decided that I would like to ask Susan for Chris's requested repudiation, rather than make an incorrect assumption.

St. James, pray for us. Our Lady of Sorrows, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 09, 2001.

Dear Susan, --I want to clarify here a point I failed to explain. When I said I received Jesus Christ at age 19; I had been a lukewarm Catholic of sorts. My Church life had been sporadic. I would sometimes fail to attend Mass with no excuses, and would fall into sin at times. But I was a Catholic, and the Church was teaching me the way I should be living. The Church was always helping me, through the sacraments and the lessons learned from many holy priests. Most importantly my faith, though sometimes lukewarm, was complete faith in all the Church's teachings, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Not any other. The spiritual lift I had at 19 was actually a culminating event in this Catholic spiritual life. I'm sure many other Catholics can relate to it.

But Jesus was always with me; even when I didn't know it. He was with me in the Church, His Holy tabernacle. All I needed was to pay attention to Him, like a true Catholic! Susan, you are also a Catholic from birth. You did not pay attention to Him. Now you are following a false church. It is not the one He founded at all.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 09, 2001.

Eugene,

I appreciate your willingness to open up and share your story with us here. Could you tell me about your experience with the Holy Spirit? Also How has Jesus living your life for you impacted your own life and the lives of those around you. If you don't mind me asking.

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

John,

NOT...................

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

Frank , Eugene has no problem speaking his own mind. Frank ,you are a nice guy, but Eugene is doing just fine . I am pretty harmless.

You said,"You just choose to look at part of those Traditions, and don't look at the parts you don't want to, like the rest of the Bible or the sacraments. Remember John 6, you can't just believe those teachings you want to, you need to follow ALL of Christ's teachings to be a Christian. " I read the whole Bible. I follow the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. God is numero uno with me.

Tradition: the handing down of legends or customs, etc. from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth. Similar to ..." Christmas dinner is always at Grandmas' house" Catholic Traditions are not my traditions. Love in Christ, Susan

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 09, 2001.

Susan,

MUST ..................

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 09, 2001.

Dear Susan-- My experience with God the Holy Spirit is spiritual and sacramental, as is all Catholic experience. The Spirit moves me silently to achieve all His aims in my life. He inspires me right this moment as I write. He enlightens my mind and reminds me of all Our Lord has done for me and other Christians. In His sacramental action He brings me FAITH to continue in the imitation of Christ. This He has done from the start, when I met Him in Baptism and later in the sacrament of Confirmation.

He moves and operates in the Catholic Church; thereby indirectly teaching me as well as all Catholics, the Truth. As the Paraclete and Spirit of the Church, His protection gives me total assurance of the revealed truths in Holy Scripture as interpreted in the Words of Sacred Tradition and the Catholic Magisterium. His gifts to me and all confirmed Catholics are Seven: Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel and Knowledge; these through the intellect; Fortitude, Godliness and Fear of the Lord are His gifts to our will. The first four are productive of Actual Grace in our souls. By His inspiration and protection, we are enabled to preserve in our souls Sanctifying Grace; without which no soul can be saved. And Sanctifying Grace makes our every act holy in the sight of God.

Jesus doesn't live my life as Eugene; I live it. I live it for Jesus, and in obedience to His commands. All of His words count for me, because without Him I am nothing. He makes of me and all faithful Christians an everlasting gift to His Father. He does this by uniting me to Him in love.

This is taught me in the Holy Catholic Church. I don't have to determine it for myself in vainly searching scriptures and relying on my human wisdom; there is no private interpretation of the Word of God better than the one He gives me in His Church. So you see why I'm a faithful follower of Christ living in His Church. Everything I want for my salvation is provided for me there by Jesus Christ.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 09, 2001.

Eugene,

I didn't ask what your catechism says. I wanted to know, in your own words how the infilling of the Holy Spirit was for you. It's not the same for everyone. What gifts did He give YOU?

You do have worldly wisdom, lots of book knowledge( which is good). But the kind of Wisdom that the Holy Spirit gives is Godly Wisdom. The gift of Knowledge is a word from God, that you have no other way of knowing.(example: you see a doctor, you havn't any knowledge of who he is or what kind of doctor he is, but in your mind, you hear "he is an abortion doctor")

Eugene, if Jesus isn't living your life for you, you havn't laid your life down. You are still working for salvation.

Love in Christ,

Susan

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 11, 2001.

Dear Susan,
You are all mellowdrama but not much substance. If psycho-babble were what Jesus Christ came to bring us, you'd be a good apostle. You must be attending a very touchy-feely congregation; a ''feel-good'' faith. You know-- if your conscience accuses you, you say inwardly, ''I feel pretty good about myself.'' Right there, you appease your conscience.

I live by my faith. It happens I also know my cathechism. The Catholic Church nourishes my faith in every way. The Holy Spirit gives me life, brings me grace, upholds my own spirit when I feel down. I'm never alone.

Love for Jesus Christ is constant in my heart, and in my home, my daily life. I already told you the gifts I count on from the Spirit.

Please show us from the words of the Holy Bible a passage in which Jesus said he would live my life for me and I would not have to live it. I know Saint Paul makes that allusion, ''I live not, but Christ lives, in me.'' I think you've been impressed by this statement. To the point of making it literal. That means when I write to you, I'm writing to Jesus, correct?

You could have fooled me. Show me the verse in scripture that means Jesus lives your own life for you. Until you do, I must remain conscious of your bad grasp of reality. You just ''feel good about yourself'', that's about all. Now and then we all do. The Catholic faith won't interfere with feeling good, Susan. You can be a faithful Catholic and feel good about yourself, too. Even if you have to confess the sins you commit. All of us are sinners, Dear.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 11, 2001.

Jmj

Come on, Eugene. Whatsa matta you? Can't you give Susan the kind of sensationalistic, emotional form of Pentecostal Catholicity that she seems intent on dragging out of you? I find patheticly offensive her unwillingness to accept your firm statement about the Holy Spirit. It came from your mind and heart, not from a catechism. She DEMANDS that you enthrall her with tales of all the extraordinary, charismatic gifts that you possess. (She has lots of 'em, so you better have some, Eugene, 'cause without 'em, you probably can't call yourself a Christian.)

That kind of harassment is almost enough to make me puke. I would take five Alex Ruizes before I would put up with that. [Susan refuses to repudiate Junior's crimes here. She is not ready for dialogue with Catholics.]

Furthermore, Susan is wrong in her statement about the "gift of Wisdom." You mentioned the gifts of the Holy Spirit, as told to us by the prophet Isaiah. She wrote: "The gift of Knowledge is a word from God, that you have no other way of knowing."
But actually, the Knowledge you mentioned, Eugene, is the gift by which the Holy Spirit points out to us the path to follow and the dangers to avoid in order to reach heaven.
It appears that Susan thinks that Knowledge has to do with some kind of ESP. We can only hope that hers is not the kind of "knowledge" about which St. Paul warned:
"O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith."

St. James, pray for us. Our Lady, seat of Wisdom, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 12, 2001.

Dear John,
Let's see if Susan can give us that request I made of her. You said about what any thinking person could say, but I don't want her to be side-tracked away. Since scripture is the only source of her doctrines, we ought to see clearly her scriptural evidence that Jesus lives her life for her and she isn't even expected to live it now. Her judgment has it --*Eugene, if Jesus isn't living your life for you, you havn't laid your life down. You are still working for salvation.*

This is a key statement. If I accept it, all the gospels were written for nothing. The epistles in which Paul warns me to ''Work out your salvation in fear and trembling,'' Or: Rom 11:22 / ''See then the goodness and the severity of God; His severity towards those who have fallen, but the goodness of God towards thee if thou abidest in His goodness, otherwise thou also wilt be cut off. For Susan and Alex Jr, these words of scripture are of no practical importance. They think Jesus makes their future sins inconsequential. I agree that He is the One who sacrificed His life to take away my sins. Only, I also know He makes the Church my safe haven in her sacraments; if I repent of sin and confess and persevere in grace. All of this I can show Susan in the scriptures. Can she show what she's been professing?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 12, 2001.

Gentlemen?

Paul gives us his definition of the Christian life in Galations 2:20.... "I have been crucified with Christ: and I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. And the real life I now have within this body is a result of my trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me..." It is "no longer I, but Christ."

In Galations 3:2.. " Let me ask you this one question: did you receive the Holy Spirit by trying to obey the Jewish laws? Of course not, for the Holy Spirit came upon you only after you heard about Christ and trusted Him to save you."

The problem....SIN...first the sins I have committed before God; the second is the discovery of the principle of sin working in me. I need forgiveness for my sins, but I need deliverance from the power of sin. The teaching of ROMANS is not that we are sinners because we commit sins but that we sin because we are sinners. When God's light first shines into my heart, my one cry is for forgiveness, for I realize that I have committed sins before Him; but once I have known forgiveness of sins I make a new discovery--the discovery of sin, and I realize that I have the nature of a sinner. There is a power within that draws me to sin, and when that power breaks out I commit sins. I may seek and receive forgiveness, but then I sin again; and life goes on in a vicious cycle. I appreciate God's forgiveness, but I want deliverance. We need forgiveness for what we have done, but we need deliverance from what we are.

Christs' Blood...the Blood is for atonement, and has to do with our standing before God and our consciousness of sin. The Blood is for God and is objective. Also it cleanses the human conscience, not the heart. Objectively, the Blood delivers us from the power of the enemy, because of his accusations against us; while subjectively the CROSS delivers us by dealing with the flesh, which is the ground of the enemy's activity in us. The Blood can wash away my sins, but it cannot wash away my "old self" I need the Cross to crucify me--the sinner.

"in Adam" or "in Christ"....We are all born "in Adam"..the vital question is " how can I get out of Adam?" We came in by birth, therefore we can get out only by death; and it is just that escape that God has provided. To be "in Christ" is to have been identified with Him in His death and resurrection! The Cross is the power of God which translates us from Adam into Christ. In 1 Cor. 15:45 and 47, the Lord Jesus Christ is called by two names-- "the last Adam" and "the second Man" As the last Adam He is the sum total of humanity, and as the second Man He is the Head of a new race of men. As the last Adam He gathers up into Himself all that was in Adam; as the second Man, having by His Cross done away with the first man in whom God's purpose was frustrated, He brings in another Man in whom that purpose is fully realized. " Therefore if any man is in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new"(2 Cor.5:17). By the Cross, God has wiped out the whole of the old creation, and out of death a new creation is brought in, in Christ, the second Man. If we are "in Adam", all that is in Adam necessarily devolves upon us. Likewise, if we are "in Christ" all that is in Him comes to us by free grace without effort on our part, on the ground of simple faith.

So what have we learned so far?...(1)..Our sins: No one can be a Christian whose sins have not been dealt with and cleansed in the Blood...(2)..Ourselves: Not only have our sins been dealt with by His death, but our old self has been crucified with Him. It is possible to be a Christian without seeing this fact, but it is only possible to be a very miserable Christian.

To sum it up for now: The Christian life is not our living a life like Christ or our trying to be Christlike, nor is it Christ giving us the power to live a life like His... It is Christ Himself living His own life through us. It is "no longer I, but Christ."

TO BE CONTINUED.........

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 12, 2001.

Dear Susan, --Do you haveto continue? As a theologian, you are nothing special. I mean that in the kindliest way; I'm not a theologian either. Did you leave the Catholic faith only to become an esoteric theosophist? If you actually come close to living without sin, I congratulate you. You may think all your sin is cleansed in blood. Christ's Precious Blood is available to us in the Eucharist. You are prone to thinking it's available to you from thin air.

Please face one fact. You actually NEED Jesus Christ. Make it your business to investigate the real ways to come to Him. He wants you to find Him, Susan. Not to imagine it, to FIND him! Jesus Christ very clearly prescribed the manner in which we would be His disciples. Not on elevated feelings; not on ecstatic flights of fancy, not because we clap our hands to fine songs and leave our cares behind! By becoming one with HIM in the Church founded on His Holy Apostles! Susan! Find the CHURCH, and you'll be with Jesus! The Church of the Apostles of Jesus; the Church your own ancestors are a part of!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 13, 2001.

Eugene,

If I had any doubt left about your faithfulness it is gone, it is good to read your testimony. I pray you will be richly blessed.

-- Sharon (sharon@sguy.co.uk), March 13, 2001.

You are very kind, Sharon. I don't deserve it; because too often I am given to the more aggressive type of responses, not only to poor Susan who after all is a lovely person in her own right. I've been caustic and impatient with many others here, even with you. God knows, you don't deserve that. I'm very hard on Alex Jr; mainly because he needs a good thrashing from time to time. He is the Pharisee in our midst. Lol!

Let's say God uses all his instruments, some cuddly and warm, some more like ice-water. I'm ice water. Come to think of it, ice water can keep a dying man alive. I'll splash a little more on Alex today.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 13, 2001.

Jmj

Dear Susan,
Surely you must have noticed that almost every Catholic here quotes from books, magazines, Internet pages, etc. -- giving credit where due.
Surely you must also have seen the many criticisms that numerous non-Catholics [even yourself on at least one occasion] have endured for copying big passages from anti-Catholic essays and Internet pages -- without giving (dis)credit where due.

With these facts in mind, I simply cannot understand how you could have had the nerve to plagiarize all (or at least most) of your last post -- and that you are proposing to burden us further ["TO BE CONTINUED"] with someone else's theology, but without giving him (dis)credit. Please stop doing these dishonest things, because you cannot get a way with them. God must be very displeased that you are descending further and further into obnoxious behaviors (never mind deeper and deeper into error.) Please just go away and leave us alone, unless you are willing to apologize and start turning your life back to the true Church of your youth.

I found that the bulk of your last post was copied, a snatch at a time, from the July and August issues of a very anti-Catholic newsletter called (with pathetic irony) "Upon This Rock" (UTR). These issues are available on the Internet at http://www.velocity.net/~subi/newsljul.htm and http://www.velocity.net/~subi/newslaug.htm.
If you actually copied from another source, then either UTR plagiarized from that source, or that source plagiarized from UTR. Either way, you plagiarized from one of them yourself. Personally, I think that you got them from UTR, since you have repeatedly insisted here on one of UTR's false themes -- that the "rock" of Matthew 16 cannot refer to St. Peter. Yes, I do believe that UTR is your chosen "tradition of men."

Some of the worst trash at the "Upon This Rock" site is on a page that says:
"How much further from the gospel can you get than teaching, in your catechism, that the only way to salvation is through the sacraments of the Catholic Church? What kind of 'Jesus' do people come to believe in if they are taught these lies on a regular basis? What hope do they have of finding the truth through the teachings of the Catholic church if they are not encouraged to either change the church or get out of it? What will happen to Catholics who accept Jesus Christ as Savior through grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone then go back to a church that teaches works salvation?"

Obviously, Susan, you come here for one purpose only: To "encourage [us] to either change the church or get out of it." For this reason, I say again to you, as I have said since October, "Begone" or "Come home."

May God forgive you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 13, 2001.

WRONG AGAIN!

I have never seen "upon this Rock" web site. If it sounds familiar to you it's because it's what "born-again" Christians believe. And I guess you've heard it enough times that you're numb to the truth .

So , dear John I bid YOU a BIG FAT good-bye................

-- SSM (non-catholic follower of Jesus Christ) (heartwjesus@yahoo.com), March 13, 2001.

Susan,
I didn't say that it sounded "familiar."
I said that most of your message was copied -- section after section, word for word. It did not come from your mind.
I gave the Upon This Rock URLs, so that anyone can test my word against yours. [ Check here and here.]
And I allowed for the possibility that you did not get the material from Upon This Rock! I said that, in the event that you got it from elsewhere, then your source either copied their text from UTR or UTR copied its text from your source.

The important thing is that you did not deny copying what you wrote without giving credit to the author -- either to hide the fact that it was from an anti-Catholic source or to give us the idea that you are capable of study and interpretation, rather than capable of only repeating fundamentalist mantras.
Farewell, and may the "Hound of Heaven" pursue you with His love.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 14, 2001.