Published on Monday, March 12, 2001 Abolishing High School Decline and Fall

By ROSS G. DOUTHAT

This time, his name is Charles Andrew Williams, and he is 15 years old. He has a slender frame and a soft, sad-looking face, and in photographs he seems young and lost, and yes, even innocent. He isn't innocent, though. Not since Monday, March 5, when he took his father's gun to school and fired it 30 times at his teachers and classmates, wounding 13 people and killing two.

There were other, similar incidents last week, although they tended to blend into one another amid the general hand-wringing. In Twentynine Palms, California, two 17-year-old students were arrested after someone overheard them discussing their "hit list" of 16 classmates, while a student in Harlingen, Texas was expelled for having a "hit list" of his own. In Williamsport, Pennsylvania, a female student shot another girl in the shoulder during lunch period. In the Seattle area, a 16-year-old student pulled a gun on his classmates. Then there are the kids who were arrested for bringing guns to school (in Philadelphia and two Florida towns) and the kids who made bomb threats or threatened to kill their classmates (three in Arizona, one in New Jersey and one in Iowa). And that, mind you, was all in one week.

The "search for answers," as the media is wont to call it, has already begun--or rather, picked up where it left off after Columbine and Jonesboro and all the other dark, bloody incidents. The usual suspects are being hauled into the dock, from America's permissive gun laws and violent popular culture, to familial breakdown and the nihilistic ethos of adolescence. And everyone has a solution to offer, be it more gun control, more metal detectors, more psychiatrists, more teachers, or, in the insipid phrase of America's goo-goos, more "tolerance."

They're all wrong, though. What we really need to do is to get rid of high school.

Oh, I'm perfectly aware that we never will. The idea of high school is, alas, so deeply embedded in American life that it would take some sort of natural disaster to uproot it.

Still, it would nice if we recognized that there is something bizarrely ill-fashioned about the way we go about "educating" our adolescent population. The teenage years are a critical period of transition, when "children" are transformed into "adults," with all the privileges and responsibilities of age. Teenagers are dangerous--they have adult desires and passions, but without the experience necessary to handle their new-found inner turmoil. In a word, they need to be socialized.

Of course, this is exactly what high school sets out to do. But high school socializes adolescents by forcing them to spend all their time, not with adults who offer examples of maturity, but with other adolescents. The only adults in grades 9-12 are teachers, whose role as disciplinarians casts them as adversaries rather than as role models. Few high school students set out to emulate their instructors--instead, they set about emulating their peers.

The result, predictably, is the warped culture that holds sway in the halls of most American high schools. Adolescents are conformist, so the culture demands conformity. Adolescents are vicious, so the culture is cruel beyond belief. Adolescents are insecure and anti-intellectual, so the culture despises academic achievement. And, of course, adolescents (or their parents, more likely) adore athletics, and so the culture treats athletic stars and their paramours as its kings and queens.

When a student finally graduates out of this culture, he has undoubtedly gained a smattering of practical knowledge. But after four years in a shallow, conformist world, he is no closer to being an adult, really, than when he entered high school in the first place. Or if he has matured, than it has been in spite of his "socialization," not because of it.

But it's so important for kids to spend time with their peers, the objectors will bleat. Well, yes, time with one's peers is great--but must it be every day, from eight till five and beyond? Surely this is arrant nonsense. Adolescents are messed-up, confused, insecure human beings, each buckling under an individual, angst-ridden burden. Why on earth would it be good for them to spend all of their time with other angst-ridden, insecure, unhappy types?

In a saner world, they would be forced to live with, and as, adults for large chunks of time--making it more likely that they would actually become adults. Such a world would encourage home-schooling, for instance, by easing the economic burden for parents who choose to stay home and teach. It would offer a more flexible, decentralized system of education, balancing classroom time with, say, vocational training and programs allowing kids to work under and alongside adults in local workplaces. It would be a world where adolescents were integrated into society, not ghettoized in the local high school.

In the absence of such a world, everyone will continue to go through the high school zoo, and most people will manage to cope. I, for one, rather enjoyed the experience. But I knew plenty of people who didn't, people who couldn't accommodate themselves to the warped hierarchies of an adolescent culture. I don't doubt that in their darker moments, these unhappy high schoolers fantasized that they, like Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman, might "take a flame thrower to this place."

But they never did it, of course. It was unthinkable.

Now all that has changed. Not only is it thinkable, it's easily done. Just ask Charles Andrew Williams.

Ross G. Douthat '02 is a history and literature concentrator in Quincy House. His column appears on alternate Mondays.

Food for thought.

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), March 20, 2001

Answers

It occurs to me that the age period known as "teen-age" is a very new thing in our development. Until after WW2, teens were expected to work, help support the family, and get married and start their own families. Very few were able to get higher education, most were needed on the farm as an extra hand, and (during the war), they were going into the military at a very early age or supporting the war effort here at home. Even the kid who dropped out of school at the 8th grade level had a superior education to what the average high school graduate has now. Now, I'm not going to get into a debate over the merits of higher education, but it seems too many kids are forced into a mold that they just aren't going to fit. Add the pressure to conform, the relentless teasing and bullying of those who are smaller, less attractive, not atheletic, poor and unable to dress "right", and you have a miserable situation that kids must endure. I wouldn't go back and live one single day of high school. I was a good student and moderately pleasant-looking, but I was the butt of jokes because my parents were strict and didn't allow me to run around with the "right" crowd. I was a nerd, before Fonzie coined the phrase. Instead of turning my rage on my peers, I turned it inward and became very self-destructive (including a suicide attempt). I think the writer is right on the mark. Something is terribly wrong with the whole system, and we are collectively afraid to buck it. Thank God for parents who are willing and able to keep their kids out of the craziness by homeschooling. It would be interesting to see a study of violent tendencies among public school vs. homeschooled teens.

-- melina b. (goatgalmjb1@hotmail.com), March 20, 2001.

He's right on. High school is just so, high school. It's a horrible place in my memory. Yeah, there were some fun things, but it's just such an unreal, experience. I was "popular", but unpopular simultaneously. I thought too much even then! I loved the learning and deplored the social climbing and nastiness. When I speak with my neices and nephews, not much has changed except for the situation has become even more callous. I think Melina has some great points as well about the newness of the term "teenager". It seems to make an awkward time even more awkward. I guess they used to be called young adults.

Wouldn't it be amazing if the public demanded a pulled plug on the entire thing? Never happen, but interesting to think about.

-- Doreen (animalwaitress@excite.com), March 20, 2001.

I agree. "Teens" used to have to work! At least in the home. My dh was doing nearly a man's work by the time he was 9. He was able to run a farm alone, for an absentee owner, by the time he was 14. I didn't have it so rough, but certainly was expected to pull my weight around home, and no day went by where my brother or I just sat around and entertained ourselves. I live in a rural area, and I get so sick of hearing the teens complain about not having anything to do, and there wouldn't be the teen crime if the community would just provide entertainment. We live in an area where there are LOTS of things to do, and near a couple of bigger towns with plenty of shopping, movies, malls, and other "city" type entertainment. I raised 2 great kids but now my youngest (17) is what I call a rebellious teen. Not violent, but out of control. She wants all of the perks of adulthood, with none of the responsibility. She was whining to me the other day and I finally just told her, "Oh, grow up!" Her answer was, "I don't have to, I'm a teenager. I'm supposed to have fun." Aarrgghh! Well, age 18 is coming quickly.

I really don't know what the answer is. One of my older daughters told me the other day she saw a 5 year old boy, who was told he couldn't do something he wanted, tell his parents he would get a gun and shoot all of them.

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), March 20, 2001.

As a senior in High School, I'd have to agree with you all. High school is, to everyone I know, extremely detrimental. I'm not just saying this as a kid who doesn't like school, I'm saying this as an intelligent person who has seen the effects of it. Our school, which is known state wide as being excellent, is run like a prison. I realize that, due to the recent events, this is necessary, but it hardly makes you want to learn, in fact it makes you want to run. About half of all class time is spent yelling at kids who don't even want to be there. Now I don't know what the answer is to fix these problems, but I believe as long as schools are run like prisons, the kids are going to act like convicts. Don't get me wrong, I am not at all condoning the violence going on, and I believe the kids doing this should be put away for life, if not worse, but by treating all teenagers like they are untrustworthy only frustrates the problem.

-- Elizabeth (Lividia66@aol.com), March 20, 2001.

Melina expressed my thoughts exactly, only better than I could have.

"High school" as it exists today is nothing more than an experiment in social engineering, and it is failing. Take your children and run, not walk to the nearest exit!! I had written last fall about the trouble I was having with my youngest son and the public school system. Well, he got his GED and is out. Let me tell you, he is a different person. He no longer wants money from me all the time. He has accepted a job that really does stink on ice and is working it anyway. He no longer has interest in running with his former "friends" who were well on their way to prison, and taking him with them. He carries on intelligent conversations, and is finally showing an interest in world events and learning something that will be of value to him in the future. He is much more helpful than he has ever been, and is, oh joy, well on his way to being a useful, happy person for the first time in his life!!!! I really think if he'd stayed in high school, he'd have an arrest record by this time.

The public school system has been breaking down for at least 30 years. Now it is pulling down our youth with it.

Another problem is the attitude of some parents. After all, my son's dear departed father who now lives near Washington, D.C., has long said, "Oh, no. Teenagers. You'll have to lock them up somewhere until they turn 21." He really has a sense of panic in his voice. Fortunately, the jerk's only seen them twice in the last 8 years.

-- Green (ratdogs10@yahoo.com), March 20, 2001.

Homeschooling indeed fills a niche, in that homeschooled children, across the board, are able to communicate with other age groups, from eight to eighty. It just depends where YOU, as the parent, focus their attention. And the first years, up to age ten are critical, for that focus. Remember that the AVERAGE smoker in our society took his first puff by age NINE. In those formative years, what you form, is what you get.

-- Action Dude (theactiondude@yahoo.com), March 20, 2001.

I totally agree with the article and all the responses thus far. Elizabeth hit upon something I have been thinking for a while now. Treat someone as untrustworth and criminal and they will meet those expectations. Even though I homeschool I experience this somewhat with my son. Grant(my son) is 12 and very tall for his age. Even when I go into a store with him I notice that many times the employees often keep a close suspicious eye on him. He notices and I immediately notice his shoulders slump and he kind of slinks a bit. It is assumed he is a bad person because he looks like a teen! You even notice women hold their purses a bit tighter when a teen walks by. I can't say that I blame them but this is a terrible commentary on our times. I know this isn't an extreme example but it is noticable enough to have stuck in my mind. We went and spent the day with a wonderful homeschooling family Sunday. They had invited us and another homeschooling family over. The other family had teens as did my friend. It was an absolute delight to watch all the kids play ball and hopscotch(believe it or not) in the back yard. We played bible trivia and the teens left us old foggies in the dust. It struck me that this was normal behavior of young people....things were as they should be. How different a gathering of public schooled children might have been.

-- Amanda in MO (aseley@townsqr.com), March 20, 2001.

As I approach 60 years old I still remember those four years of high school as the worst years of my life. I like the way my Amish neighbors do it. At 14 they are home for "on the job" training. I bet if you figured out just how many minutes a day in school were actually spent on "learning" we all would be surprized. All that money could be so much better spent. With on-line classes those who were interested in a "higher education" could still get it without being entertained for the rest of those hours. The old way of apprenticeships worked for hundreds of years and I think it would work again.

-- diane (gardiacaprines@yahoo.com), March 20, 2001.

So.... when they get rid of the high schools, the kids are going to what??? Go into the streets?

Get the government out of our homes, let parents have the authority over their children - along with the responsibility, and stop all the senseless lawsuits surrounding the issue.

My daughter is no angel... Wouldn't even think to pretend. But she gets into so much trouble for sticking up for the little kids cause the teachers won't - too afraid of lawsuits.

My behind isn't any flatter because I got the strap. I learned not to tease, learned to take it when it was my turn to get teased, and never raised a gun. But, its all the school's fault... Not the parents, the kids or the teachers... Right?????

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), March 20, 2001.

The biggest step will be changing the way society thinks about schooling. When we show people our homeschooled children are learning and well adjusted, maybe they'll rethink the current system.

I met our pediatrician's wife recently. We discussed my children being homeschooled. She told me the only thing wrong with it was they were missing all the socialization that went on in public school. After talking to her about the recent school shootings and what type of socialization really occured on a daily basis she changed her mind. If people were just willing to think about what is best for the children, they would have to agree homeschooling is a good alternative.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), March 20, 2001.

My daughter has just returned home for school after giving high school a try for six months. We had already discussed her returning home after the close of this year as it was really getting to her. The cliques and the comments etc. etc. The last straw was when she was attacked in English by a much bigger girl that has been giving her a rough way to go for some time. This happened a few weeks ago and she came home that day never to return. Now she'll have time to follow her own pursuits (volunteering, part time job) and interests and get some REAL life experience, not that soap opera they call a high school! She's glad to get out of there now but six months ago she just had to see for herself what it was like. I'm glad it's over.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), March 20, 2001.

What about the parents that have no choice but to put their children in the Public school system? I have experienced all three choices: Private school ( which we could no longer afford), homeschooling (which only lasted 2 years due to the fact that my husband and many others in our extended family did not support it and I lacked the confidence I needed to continue it) and finally, public school where one of my children has graduated from and one is in high school (the other in elementary). No, I don't care for the public school system, however, I don' feel as though I have any other choice due to the fact that I must work full time outside the home, and we can not afford a private school for both children. Sadly, we accept the things we can not change, and at a GREAT expense (our children). Then we wonder why things aren't like they used to be. Because everything is just "accepted". Society's standards have sunk to an all time low, and we have accepted so much of it. Hard work for an honest day's pay doesn't exist in most places. Respect? Where is the respect that was once a part of everyday life when we were kids growing up? The decline of the family unit as it was know in yesteryear is almost non- existant today. Folks have their priorities so out of whack today it's mind-boggling! But the real question is, "Where do we go from here?" What can we do to make things any different? When you feel like I do, that you're stuck in the middle,living a life that you can only wish, were different in some ways...... No time to change the world, must work to put food on the table, roof over our heads and clothes on everyone's back. Maybe we need to really scrutinize the food we eat, the type of home we live in, and the type of clothing we wear. We've been brainwashed by this society over the years to think that we must have certain things or live "up" to a certain standard. But look at the folks who are keeping score. Do we really want to be like them? I for one do NOT! I think we all need to turn back to the basics, re-examine where we are in life and exactly where we're going and how we aim to get there - on OUR terms! I think we need to listen to our elders instead of packing them off to an old-folks home becasue we're too lazy and heartless to take care of them ourselves. THEY know what honesty, respect, hard work, compassion and simple living is all about. And you know what? You'll NEVER learn what they could teach you, in a classroom!

-- Greenthumbelina (sck8107@aol.com), March 20, 2001.

Personal responsibilty for one's actions begins at less than six months of age, if you don't teach it then, you are in for BIG trouble later, as it only gets harder to teach as the child matures. How many children do you know that do not know what "No" really means, on the first say so? About 90% or better of the children I know, what is wrong with this picture? Parents are not parenting at all, they don't know what they are doing with all those "time outs" and all that other useless yuppie crap.

When parents begin to teach responsibility again from the very beginning of life, then the problem will start to improve, eliminating high school will not solve the "problem" any more than taking guns away will solve the "problem". The "problem" is simply a symptom of the much larger "disease", that is, total lack of personal responsibility.

-- Annie Miller in SE OH (annie@1st.net), March 20, 2001.

Greenthumbelina brought up something that I hear a great deal as a reason not to homeschool....needing 2 incomes. This is just not true. I've worked with a number of women to help teach them how they can live (without as much hardship as they think) on one income. I met a lovely lady online in a christian homeschool chat with this very problem last night. When we first started talking she was very depressed and convinced that there was no way for her family to live on one income. After a bit of talking she agreed to share some of her financial figures with me and we crunched numbers. I pointed out several ways for her to make drastic cuts in her expenses without suffering one little wit. She was so surprised when we were done...said it just never occured to her.

One thing many people don't realise is that it is much cheaper to homeschool as opposed to sending them off to public school. When you send kids to school there are lots of expenses...the lady I was talking to actually had to pay $365 a year for each child to ride the bus! There is ALWAYS something the kids will need $10-15 dollars for....when mine were in school it seemed like a weekly thing. Add to that school clothes(keep up with the fads...don't want the little darlins to be teased), lunch money, school supplies, and sports expenses(if your children have an interest in more than one sport or activity it gets expensive quick)....we're talking some pretty major bucks here. Compare this to homeschool. My children wear play clothes all the time that are normally handme downs or garage sale buys. My total supply and curriculm expense for my 2 kids for a year is rarely over $250...and that is on an expensive year. I had to take my kids to school and pick them up because there was so much mischief on the school bus....gas and car maintenance expenses add up.

Most homeschool mom's I know are resourceful ladies and find a way to supplement their families income out of the home. Sometimes even a small amount can help smooth over the rough spots. There are just so many ways that a dedicated woman can save money around the home. Most double income families that I know of eat out a great deal. I don't blame them...after a day of work the last thing I'd want to do is cook. This adds up so quick. I've been guilty of this myself lately...while remodeling I fall behind on cooking...floored me when I looked at our bank balance. A penny saved is a penny earned is so true. Where there is a will there is a way!

-- Amanda in MO (aseley@townsqr.com), March 20, 2001.

I agree with Annie. I have 5 kids. From the time they are old enough to get into things, I began to teach them the meaning of no. I absolutely hate it when people "child proof" there home. Everything up out of baby's way. So when they bring them to my house they get into everything! UGH! I can take my kids almost anywhere & do not have to worry about them getting into things they shouldn't. They have been taught what they can do & what they can't What's a toy & what is not. What ever happened to "NO"?? If you instill right from wrong in them from the beginning it will stick with them. You can't wait until you have a 3 year old monster that doesn't listen & then expect to turn them around. They already know they can get away with it. I have seen so many times a parent tell their child no only to finally give in after they get tired of hearing them whine. No is no! Say what you mean & mean what you say & maybe kids would turn out a little better. There are some wonderful kids out there. They unfortunately are usually the ones that get picked on. I did. That's why I quit school in the 11th grade. I was a straight A student, but was fed up with the constant teasing. I didn't get a gun & shoot anyone because I was taught better than that. So many kids have no respect for anyone. I would have never dreamed of doing some of the things kids do. I also agree that the government & schools need to give the raising of kids back to the parents. So many are afraid of being arrested for abuse. No one will tell me that I can not give my kid a good spanking if they need one. They are my kids & they will mind me! They know if they do something wrong they will be punished & I have to say it doesn't happen very often. They know there are consequences for their actions & behave so they don't get into trouble. It all starts when they are infants. Too many parents try to be their child's friend.

-- Wendy (weiskids@yahoo.com), March 20, 2001.

To answer Sue's question as to what teens could do instead of high school, why not work? High School education is certainly acceptable for those that desire it, but others would be just as happy to skip it and enter the work force. Maybe they will find an occupation that works for them or perhaps they will see the value of returning to the academic route.

I have mixed feelings about doing away completely with public education (I think it's terribly inefficient) but I do feel strongly that compulsary education laws should be eliminated, especially at the high school level. You simply cannot force someone to learn if they do not wish to. Make education an option, and I think you will find that it will become more enticing. At a minimum, it will allow those that wish to further their education to do so without the distraction of dealing with those who are only there because they have to be.

-- Hoosiermom (hdnpines@hotmail.com), March 21, 2001.

There is good reason to be concerned about what is happening at High Schools but am not sure what the answers are. Voilence is everywhere. Watch some rock video's !! Not 100% convinced that homeschooling is the answer. Would be concerned about socialization skills. Someday those young people have to go and make their way in the world. What about community schools?

-- Gary (ggiles@north.nsis.com), March 21, 2001.

Not 100% convinced that homeschooling is the answer. Would be concerned about socialization skills. Someday those young people have to go and make their way in the world. What about community schools?

Gary, much has been said on this forum in regards to this perceived "socialization" issue. Mostly from those like myself who reject, based on various degree's of criteria, this "concern" in regards to socailization of home-schooled children. But, I am genuinely interested in hearing, specifically, your concerns. Perhaps you have taken the time to consider and weigh the pros and cons of the current view of socialization. What the proponets of this issue state is the goal/desired outcome/point? How does this stated goal line up with the actual results? What does History tell us? On what basis do those such as myself reject this view? In regards to the available research, is the "socialization" issue really even a factor? These are just a few of the questions that need to be answered to form an opinion in regards to this oft stated concern. Please understand, I am not being contrary, at least that is not my intent. I have found that usually, there are 2 groups that push this as a concern. The first is the teachers union, public schools, ect.. those that have something to lose (read:money & power). The second group are those that have heard this concern so many times they typically just accept it as valid and make it their own. Many, once they actually consider the whole of the subject, reach very different conclusions. I do not know your postition, but if you have thoughtfully considered this issue and genuinely believe homeschooled children are at a distinct disadvantage and ill-prepared to cope with the "world", I would be very interested in your reasoning on this. I Thank-You in advance for your thoughts on this issue.

Also, thanks to all the wonderful thoughts/opinions on this subject. It does my heart good to see so many parents and others who have weighed in on this and are doing something about it!! Needless to say, you have all spoken well for me also. Thank-You!

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), March 21, 2001.

Soialization is a non issue. If anything the socialization of ps kids is stunted. The true definition of socialization is a passing on of social norms. In this case I don't want other kids doing this. I would prefer a wide range of ages and levels of experience of role models to do this job. You won't get this in a classroom of kids all the same age with a teacher viewed as disciplinarian. I think what the gentleman meant is soializing. In that case, I don't believe that is allowed in school.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), March 21, 2001.

The info Amanda gave about homeschooling on one income is so true. I'm glad you get to share with other women about this. Half the battle is being able to talk to someone who has been there. I also appreciate the comments about raising children the right way. They have to know there are consequences to their behavior.

Can someone tell me exactly what socialization skills highschoolers are getting that homeschoolers aren't? I hear this all the time, but no one ever gives details.

-- Lena(NC) (breezex4@go.com), March 21, 2001.

Benefits of Public school socialization: How to obtain condoms & birth control pills w/o your parents knowledge, how to purchase alcohol and tobacco while still a minor, how to buy/sell drugs, where to find all the "cool" sites on the internet (porno, etc), how to get an internet address at school so you can visit all the forbidden sites your parents won't permit you to go to, how to use school activities for a way to meet undesirable people of the opposite sex that your parents object to, learning how to use "the system" to your advantage - as in call in the authorities for "child abuse" because your parents make you do chores and follow rules, etc. etc. ad nauseum. Do you need any more benefits of public school socialization? I have a long list. God bless all of you homeschoolers!

-- Lenette (kigervixen@webtv.net), March 21, 2001.

Hey ! I am not trying to be critical of Homeschooling. Just not sure this is the answer or should I say the only answer to the problem. My oldest daughter just graduated from high school last year and I do understand the problems. The short term solution may be homeschooling or as I said some sort of co-op or community school but will that solve the problems ? I do not pretend to have the answers to this difficult question but feel some sort of concern for those who cannot, for what ever reason, feel safe about the present system or cannot homeschool their children. I would also agree that many adults can provide an effective education for their children but what about those who cannot. As a resident of this planet I feel we are also obligated to think of the common good for our neighbours . The big question is what the HELL has happened to our society and what can we do to fix it. We cannot be completely isolated for the bad that is out there. As a person with morals and reguard for my neighbour and mankind in general [ and I am sure this is something we all share] do you not agree we must fight the good fight and bring change to our world. The question is how.

-- Gary (ggiles@north.nsis.com), March 21, 2001.

Gary, I am homeschooler and feel that it is a wonderful choice for my family. I really enjoy the closeness I have with my kids and they have with each other. I think once most people got past the "oh, I'd never have patience" thing, they'd find out that it really is fun most days. I agree with others that socialization in a non-issue and I'd venture to guess that those who truly could not homeschool (as opposed to those who just don't want to) would be a fairly small percentage.

That said, I'm not completely against community schools as long as they were truly under local control. I think that consolidation and increasing state control, not to mention a slow but steady rise in federal control, have helped to create the nightmare we have in public schools today. By creating huge, one-size fits all systems, we ignore the tremendous regional differences that are found across our country. The more the powers-that-be strive for *accountability* under the guise of uniform curriculum standards and national testing, the more impersonal the system will become. Kids are increasingly being thought of as products to be mass produced as one big homegeneous unit. That runs counter to human nature. I'm of the opinion that people are not ignorant and are actually quite capable of knowing what is best for themselves and their kids. Give the power back to the people. If they wish to fund local schools, fine. And I mean very local, not the consolidated, tax-hungry monstrosities we have today. Not only would schools be able to better reflect the values of their immediate community, we could do away with a large bureacracy and the financial burdens that come with it.

I'm not trying to oversimplify things here. I don't believe that school consolidation and state and federal oversight are the blame for all of society's ills. I have many other thoughts and opinions on our increasingly rapid downhill slide. But I do think the public school system, in its present form, plays a large role.

Hoosiermom

-- Hoosiermom (hdnpines@kuntrynet.com), March 21, 2001.

Let me explain what I mean by community schools. Could not a group of parents in an area combine their efforts and homeschool or co-op school their children as a group. That would give the students exposure to different expertise. I also believe that education on a homestead or small farm is a great education as it teaches things that can never be taught in a school setting. I attended a one room school house up till grade 6 and found it was a great way to learn as the older kids were also used to some extent as jr. teachers. Also it was community operated with a board made up of community members. People should have the right to choise and Governments should give tax breaks to families that choise their own system of education. I live in Nova Scotia and I believe this is where Co-Ops began.

-- Gary (ggiles@north.nsis.com), March 22, 2001.

Hi Gary! I did not think you were knocking homeschooling and I do understand what you are saying. I am weary of hearing about this "concern" for socailization and at any opportunity try to understand a person's specific concern. I know why the "powers that be" tout this line, I no longer concern myself with such as these. But I do try, individually, to break through this perception. To reason and debunk the notion that socialization is even an issue. Indoctrination, yea. Socialization, no.

As to your other point concerning local schools or co-ops, I like this as well. But as hoosiermom (sp)stated, not just the apperance of local control. If you mean something like the Amish have, yippee, I would go along with that. They have complete control, they fund, locate, ect...... this is TRUE local control. But the thing is, it would probably only work with those who have the mindset of homeschoolers. The school would only "support" what is being taught at home. Not the divide and conquer mindset of our govt schools. And if they are only "supporting" the values of the community, that means there would actually have to be a "community" of like-minded people to begin with. The Amish understand this in all areas of their lives. They are a community, they share the same world-view, have the same understanding in regards to their faith and value the same things.

Also, what you are suggesting is fairly common with many homeschoolers, to a degree. There are homeschooling co-ops that operate under the guidence of the parents. Who come together to make avialable to the students a variety of subjects taught by different teachers (parents). For example, Mr. Smith is a Marine Biologist. He may come in (to an agreed upon location, church building, ect..) to teach Biology every Wed & Fri for 2 hrs each day, for a quarter. Then there is Mrs. Everybody, who majored in Journalism and teaches for 1.5 hrs on Fridays. And speech, public speaking, debate, ect... The "glue" for these ventures, is that all who are involved, are in "agreement" with one another concerning the priorities, values, subjects taught, ect.. It works well, as long as the gov't stays out of the way.

I also, like Hooisermom stated, believe there are many reasons for the downward spiral in our society, one of which is gov't schools. But, hey, they could not be getting away with what they are doing, if Mom and Dad were actually informed, involved and cared. But, you know, they are just toooo busy with "real" life. And while they are living the "real" life, our children are being shot, knifed, raped, killed and indoctrinated (for free, no less) all under the care and protection of our free public education system. The very same one that sucks down billions of dollars to provide such an outstanding and glorious record of failure and, oh yea, provides the ever- important "socialization" for our young ones.

Get rid of the teachers unions, the compulsary "education" law, the federal gov't and state gov't and maybe, just maybe, our children will have a chance for a future of something other than death, despair, drugs, disrespect, failure, indoctrination to Socailism and a general lack of values/foundation to stand on.

Imagine, if you will, children who are loved and are taught to love. Children who value family, who participate to insure the families well-being. Through work, commitment, obedience to parents and other worthy adults. Those who are not taught that "entertaiment" is their job as a child. That they have something of worth, through their work, care and commitment, to offer not only their family, but the community and the world. That education is very important, but not THE most important thing. That choices they make relate directly to their well-being, and their families well-being and the community they live in. That, through the actions (not simply words spoken, but ACTIONS) of their parents, they matter, they REALLY, REALLY, matter. That by faithful and consistent discipline and love, these children grow to be faithful, hardworking, committed adults. Who stand for something. Who understand personable responsibility. Who would feel shame. Who would acknowledge and serve our Lord. Who would make sacrifices for the good of the country. Who puts "self" last. Who makes mistakes, but holds himself accountable, not every person, company or group that that might have come in his path. One who not only accepts certain standards of behavior, but esteems the notion as well.

Oh, I'm sorry, I seem to be dreaming out-loud here.....or describing the ww2 generation (as a whole). Ahh, how I wish we had the fortitude and character of that generation. Can it happen again?

BTW Gary, this was not all aimed at you.....I seem to have veered off track somewhat- - - sorry!

-- Wendy@GraceAcres (wjl7@hotmail.com), March 22, 2001.

Keep going Wendy! You are expressing my thoughts, only better than I would state them. It's good to be reminded that there are like minded people out there.

-- Denise (jphammock@msn.com), March 22, 2001.

Community schools like what the Amish have would be great. Unfortunately, if anybody but the AMish tries to do it they are going to have one huge fight with the authorities. They do *not* like losing control--just witness the opposition to homeschooling across the nation. Visit the NEA sites and read what they think about homeschooling! They have paid lobbyists in every state legislature working against anything that's "nonpublic."

Christian schools *could* be like small one-room schools and be very successful except that they are trying too hard to be like public schools. Again, mostly by mandate of public officials, but also because the parents are paying big bucks and the priority has to be "academic excellence" (as measured against the status quo of public schools) and not real learning/living.

I think we all sympathize with people who feel they have no choice but public school. Certainly we're not judging them. But I have seen some families get awful creative and figure out something because it was important enough to them. Some couples in our area the dad works during the day and the mom works during the night, or vice versa.

P.S. I have 21 year old and 18 year old who've never been to "school" a day in their lives. They're not at all "geeky" but can intelligently converse with anybody. And so far they haven't lacked at all for great opportunities--the 21 year old has more job offers than she could ever possibly follow up.

-- Alana in VA (lester@erols.com), March 24, 2001.

Just read what you all hadto say about the differant school systems. THank you so much for reminding me why I continue to push ahead with homeschooling! What a refreashing reading this thread was. Hope it keeps going!! I am rejunvitated!!! Thanks again!!!

-- michelle (tsjheath@ainop.com), March 26, 2001.

I wish that I had homeschooled my kids. My last will graduate in May. I feel he got more from his life experiences than he did in high school. He is a thinker and his school teachers have had a hard time dealing with that aspect. If he has an opinion that doesn"t fit the "norm", he is generally told to be quite. This past year has almost been a nightmare for us. One teacher even told him he was a waste. When I contacted this teacher and asked what made her feel this way her response was "such a brilliant mind with no real plans for his future education". At this point he hasn't made up his mind as to what career path he will take. He has been working since he was 14 for a greenhouse nursery and landscaper and has learned quite a lot from the owner of the business who has also offered to continue his apprenticeship with him. He is a very educated young man, He has been very active in his county 4-H program and has won several awards with his animals and several leadership awards. I took is 4-H portfolo to this teacher and she was amazed. This woman made a judgement based on a brief 50 minute class with him 5 days a week and had no idea what this young man was really all about. I am just glad that my son was secure enough in his own mind and abilities to not let this short sighted teacher put him in a box full of trash, because he had no future plans for his education according to her standards. This is not the only example but it is the most recent. I too feel that working with adults and being treated as an adult is the best route to go. When we institutionalize teens that is what we get. Maybe it is easier for the majority to deal with them in this manner, but we are not getting the desired results. I only wish I had the forsight to homeschool.

-- dee schoettler (abbysnanna@hotmail.com), March 27, 2001.