What is a 'person'?

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What is the Catholic view on what it means to be a 'person'?

-- Denis Rowe (rowedp@hotmail.com), March 27, 2001

Answers

A person is a unique individual life! This unique individual life begins at conception with the infusion of the Soul by God. Individual life can be proven by comparing DNA. If cells are taken from the mothers mouth and a DNA map is made. Then the DNA from cells of skin, blood, hair are compared to this map. They match exactly. Same with the father. However if cells are extracted from a child even a six week (after conception) old child the DNA does not match either the mother or father exactly certain markers match but not the complete DNA map. Therefore that child is a unique creation unlike any other human being in the world. (except possibly a twin)

-- Br. Rich SFO (repsfo@prodigy.net), March 28, 2001.

Dear brother Rich:

I believe even identical twins have slight genetic differences, like they have slight physical differences. I could be wrong, though.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), March 29, 2001.


Many years ago I read the book by Theilard de Chardin, Philosophy of Man, I think was the title. It was interesting in that he proposed all matter from the very start of creation, was in ongoing evolution. It was first atomic and molecular, and as it went on, became mineral, later organic, then animal, finally at present resting in man. From here, he thought, creation (the world) became a Biosphere. I don't know if I ever really grasped his reasoning, but he called Christ the Omega Point, which was the apogee of all evolution in nature, and of course, Divine. Christ brought all Creation into Himself; to present to His Eternal Father as scripture tells us.

Theilhard was controversial even then. I have not kept up on his status; but one thing struck me as significant. He prayed of God to allow him the grace of death on Easter Sunday, should his ideas be in accordance with God's Will. Or something to that effect. In other words, *if he was on the right course, with these theories*, would Our Lord do him the singular favor of allowing him to die on this day? Apparently, his favor was granted, because he expired on an Easter Sunday. Don't remember what year.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 29, 2001.


Thinking about it, I really should have posted the above message (Theilhard de Chardin's evolution book) in the ''Vegetarian'' thread, not here. It is off-subject in here. Sorry.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 29, 2001.

Hi Hannah,

Identical twins i.e monoztgotic twins are identical genetically. Any differences are caused by the environment they are in.

They come from one egg that splits so they are carbon copies of each other. .........

What is a person is a great question, I have just recieved a 1st for an essay of a similar title. The answer depends on your point of view. Psychology, philosophy, religion all have different answers. As a christian the simplest answer is as was said above a unique being created by God.

As an aside I have not gone away but i have only 2 weeks to finish my dissertation(10,000words) and an essay(2000words) and then revision begins for exams in May. So no time for idle browsing!!!!

-- Sharon (sharon@sguy.co.uk), April 11, 2001.



Thanks, Sharon. I hadn't been sure before, but I got it cleared up a few days ago by my bio professor. Good luck with your schoolwork.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), April 11, 2001.


Jmj

This message contains a question for Sharon and a reply to Denis, who asked the opening question (What is the Catholic view on what it means to be a 'person'?)

I'm not sure that you'll see this, Sharon, since you are extremely busy now, but I'll try anyway ...
You used a phrase that I've never seen before, so I suspect that it is something used in British education, but not in the U.S.: "I have just received a 1st for an essay ..."
Does "receiving a first" mean being awarded the highest grade? If so, congratulations are in order. (In the U.S., students often speak of receiving an "A" -- grades often being given on a scale of A-B-C-D-F. There is no such thing as "E" for excellent or embarrassing!)

You also gave an answer to Denis that leads me to offer an expansion. You wrote: "As a christian the simplest answer is as was said above, a unique being created by God."
Also "as a Christian", a less simple answer would take into account the triune Persons in God, who is uncreated.
A classical definition of "person" is "an individual substance of a rational nature." The divine Persons are somehow distinct yet in an indivisible relationship with each other.
It occurred to me to mention this, just in case Denis was thinking of the Trinity (three Persons in one God) when he asked the question.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 11, 2001.


Hi John,

Took a few minutes off to drop in!

A 1st refers to the grading system used for my undergrad degree.

1st = 70%+, 2i = 60-70%, 2ii = 50-60% roughly. So yes a first is the top grade. So far this year I have had firsts in both essays submitted so I'm doing ok.

Thanks for the rest of the message - one of the things I wrote in my essay was that for me a person represents the trinity of God in that we are body, mind and spirit. It was a risk including religion in a psychology essay but Thank God it was rewarded.

Big Prayer request: I have only 3 weeks to finish my dissertation and prepare for finals. £ years work depending on 5 exams. Please pray that I will be able to study and absorb the right information, and that I will recall it when it counts. I believe God wanted me to do this course but I'm panicking a bit as the end draws near. I do not want to fail Him or me. God's will be done.

Thanks all - I may drop in every now and then but otherwise I will be around after the 22nd May (my last exam!).

-- Sharon (sharon@sguy.co.uk), April 20, 2001.


That should have read 3 years not £ years, though it has cost a lot of that too!!!!

-- Sharon (sharon@sguy.co.uk), April 20, 2001.

Sharon,

You've got my prayers, I've been through the wringer myself, and lived. You will too.

For Christ's strength,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 21, 2001.



Thanks Frank,

The dissertation is finshed except for the finishing touches.

Just the exams to study for and complete!

-- Sharon (sharon@sguy.co.uk), April 24, 2001.


I am currently considering this question as part of my Philosophy AS course at college. I would suggest that the answer is that a person is anything sentient, meaning anything that is intelligent, self aware and conscious.

-- Thom Himself (butt_cheeks_smee@hotmail.com), November 27, 2002.

Thom,

If you were asleep or under anesthesia in surgery would you quit being a person? If not, should you have any rights as a person in these conditions?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), November 27, 2002.


After conception at say the 8-cell stage of growth, if naturally or bio-engineeringly the human life is split to two 4-cell groupings that grow to be identical ---cloned--- twins, then if the two persons are true full unique persons, then who was the person of the 8-cell human life? I appreciate protecting human life from conception; yet the above question stands strong before me as a deep challenge.

-- Joe Faust (joefaust@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.

Meditating on my question, here is perhaps a resolution: Say the 8-cell person is Carol; then at the split to the two 4-cell we find conception of another person besides Carol, say Rosa. In one moment after a first conception there is Carol; and as the rib of Adam comes Eve ... we get Rosa. There was one person and then there was two persons. Welcome Carol and Rosa. Thank you, God, for Carol and Rosa. The identical twin-clones will have an unending set of differing influences upon them and they each will respond in differing ways to all those influences; the starting similar DNA will play a part in things but will not overcome their distinct personhood or eventual textured personalities as they grow in a continuum through eternity. Death will be a door from a kind of time we know little about to a kind of eternity that we know much less about; Carol and Rosa will be sisters for all of us forever. No one has a right to deliberately stop the life of Carol or Rosa at any stage of their time in time---except God; the mother or father or state have no right to deliberately stop the right-to-live that Carol and Rosa have from their beginning point. Carol would be a few moments older than Rosa, but that also means that they began with the Universe in a fully different set but they will be in the same Universe as our companions.

-- Joe Faust (joefaust@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.


URL might have to be pasted in parts carefully:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdlife/documen ts/rc_pa_acdlife_doc_30091997_clon_en.html

-- Joe Faust (joefaust@hotmail.com), November 04, 2003.


My philosophy class right now is going through this, and although the professor shies away from definitions (he's a Catholic phenomenalist), we seem to have agreed that a person is a being who has been given the power to know, to choose, and to give oneself completely for another. (In my old Thomistic philosophy class, I think this would be roughly equivalent to the intellect and will.) As soon as God gives someone their existence, their personhood cannot be taken away, even if all their possessions, abilities, and their very life is stolen from them.

-- Catherine Nolan (catfishbird@yahoo.ca), November 04, 2003.

Dear Catherine,

I completely agree that "as soon as God gives someone their existence, their personhood cannot be taken away". However, I don't think the definition you provided could be counted on to support that statement. In fact, I think it is a very dangerous definition of "person", as it has at least the potential to exclude the preborn, infants, the severely retarded, the brain damaged, the permanently comatose, and the elderly with senile dementia. These persons, at least in their present state of existence, lack at least some of the criteria which this definition requires - the ability to know; to choose; and to give of oneself. In fact, any definition of "person" based on an individual's ability to DO certain things is dangerous, and can easily be twisted to serve the agenda of the culture of death.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 04, 2003.


Hi Paul M.

These "persons"--

the severely retarded, the brain damaged, the permanently comatose, and the elderly with senile dementia--may they receive the Holy Eucharist? Perhaps they may have partaken in the past and probably may receive in their present state, but if so, who would determine if they could receive or not? And, would the Holy Eucharist even be considered for these people at all? Basically, what are their chances for Salvation?

I hope my questions make sense.

rod..

..<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 04, 2003.


The Eucharist may certainly be given to mentally compromised persons. It is not usually given to persons who are comatose, simply because they cannot swallow. We currently have two retarded ladies in our RCIA class, one severely, the other moderately. One team member works one on one with the more severely afflicted lady. We expect that having "completed the course", which is to say having received as from the course as her handicap permits, she will be baptized at Easter Vigil, make her first Holy Communion at the same time, and sebsequently receive the sacrament of Confirmation.

The chances of salvation for a baptized seriously intellectually compromised adult are the same as for a baptized infant. They are incapable of serious sin; therefore their salvation is assured.

-- Paul M. (PaulCyp@cox.net), November 04, 2003.


Though I don't have a theological degree, nor am I a philosopher, I make the attempt at folk wisdom on this site, sometimes with success.

No person, however injured or senseless is less than a person. It makes me furious to hear some comatose soul being referred to as - - ''just a vegetable.''

Even a broken egg-yoke is that, an egg. A dog without wakeful life remains the dog. A man is always a man, not a vegetable. Life is life, and when it dies; it's dead, not vegetable life.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), November 05, 2003.


Jmj

I have always agreed with what you just said, Gene.
I totally reject the term PVS (persistent vegetative state) for the very reason you mentioned. A human person cannot "vegetate" (be a vegetable). I get very perturbed when the media refer to PVS -- and I go almost ballistic when I hear a pro-lifer refer to it, for it is so counterproductive to our cause.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), November 05, 2003.


"They are incapable of serious sin; therefore their salvation is assured. "

I kind of had a gut feeling about such conditions being similar to the "infant" condition for Salvation. I suppose that Alzheimer’s-- or any similar mental state--would be similar to such a condition for Salvation in that serious sin is practically unlikely by the victim.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), November 05, 2003.


Just a little FYI: a wonderful book that answers the question (what is a person) is:

Healing the Culture Fr. Robert Spitzer, S.J. It's available at EWTN.com (religious catalogue) and Amazon.com, among other places.

AMDG,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), November 05, 2003.


A person is a unique individual life! This unique individual life begins at: Individual life can be proven by comparing DNA. If cells are taken from the mothers mouth and a DNA map is made. Then the DNA from cells of skin, blood, hair are compared to this map. They match exactly. Same with the father. However if cells are extracted from a child even a six week (after conception) old child the DNA does not match either the mother or father exactly certain markers match but not the complete DNA map. Therefore that child is a unique creation unlike any other human being in the world. (except possibly a twin)

- A person is a unique individual life !!

Therefore that child is a unique creation unlike any other human being in the world. (except possibly a twin) -

PS: twins or more , are also unique persons !!

Salut & Cheers from a NON BELIEVER:

-- Laurent LUG (.@...), November 06, 2003.


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