In a TV news program I heard that in the Vatican someone opened John XXIII's coffin and found his body incorrupt.

Can this be interpreted as a miracle?

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 28, 2001

Answers

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-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), March 28, 2001.

Dear Enrique

A New York online newspaper quotes this release:

Pope John's Body Shows No Change VATICAN CITY A cardinal present when the coffin of Pope John XXIII was opened after 38 years said the pontiff looked as if he had as if he "died yesterday." "None of the body had decomposed," said Virgilio Cardinal Noe, the high priest of St Peter's Basilica, who oversaw the opening to prepare removal of the tomb to a new space more accessible to pilgrims. Noe, who attended the exhumation with other Vatican officials Jan. 16, said the pontiff's body was uncorrupted by time. "It was as if he died yesterday," Noe yesterday. Vatican officials have been careful not to attribute the preservation of the body directly to a miracle. News Wire Services Original Publication Date: 3/28/01 What do you think? Post your comments on our Forums.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 28, 2001.

*Why* did they open his coffin? He had his labors in life, let him rest in peace.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2001.

Just speculating; probably to pay respects to his person, also because his body is presumably a source of grace to the beholder, much like a relic of a saint can be. I believe every time the procedure takes place there is prayer and the invocation of his/her intercession as a saint in heaven. Nothing is done without scrupulous attention to decorum and respect for the deceased. It can and should be an act of love.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 28, 2001.

Jmj

Hello, Frank.
You wrote, "Let him rest in peace." Don't worry, Frank. Though we should show great honor to the remains of the deceased, the "peace" of the dead cannot be disturbed by what we do to their bodies. A deceased person's soul is in the afterlife, and his body is lifeless. What we may due to bodily remains cannot affect the soul, which continues to "rest in peace" (if the person was saved).

There was a good reason for the opening of the former pope's coffin. Exhumation is part of the beatification/canonization process. Recall that Pope John XXIII became Blessed John XXIII on September 3, 2000.

I found the following summary at the Internet site of a Catholic magazine. It helps explain this:
"[With regard] to the practice of distributing and venerating relics, the Vatican has issued new regulations ... Bodily remains are taken from a sainthood candidate's grave during the exhumation that is required before beatification, if it can be done without unduly mutilating the body. Often some of these relics are presented to the pope during beatification and canonization, then placed in custody of the Apostolic Sacristy. Many relics are also held by the diocese or religious order promoting a candidate's cause. ... During the early Church St. Jerome made it clear where the emphasis belonged: Relics of martyrs should not be worshiped, but they should be venerated 'in order the better to adore Him whose martyrs they are,' writes Joan Carroll Cruz in Relics. She explains the three classes of relics: First-class relics are parts of the bodies of saints and the instruments of Christ's passion. Second-class relics include items of clothing and objects used by a saint, and instruments of torture used on a martyr. Third-class relics are objects or cloths touched to either first- or second-class relics. Honoring saints through their relics should not be confused with superstitious beliefs."

Obviously, in the case of Bl. John XXIII, bodily remains were not taken as relics, though probably fragments of his garments were removed to become second-class relics. (The body may even have been fully re-vested. I have heard of that being done with the bodies of other incorrupt Saints and Blesseds. The garments decay, but the bodies do not.) Did you know that there are numerous incorrupt (unembalmed) bodies around the world -- some in glass cases open to public viewing, such as the body of St. Bernadette Soubirous of Lourdes? What tremendous honor God thereby pays to certain extremely holy people, and what deeper faith he thereby inspires in us!

Even so, though, during the sainthood process, incorruption is not automatically assumed to be a miraculous sign of divine intervention, nor does it replace the requirement of miracles worked through the deceased person's intercession.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 28, 2001.

JFG,

Though we should show great honor to the remains of the deceased, the "peace" of the dead cannot be disturbed by what we do to their bodies.

I agree, but neither will *my* faith be either shaken or enhanced by leaving his body in the ground. That being the case, I'd just as soon venerate his remains by *not* exhuming them. If the Vatican has some need for the body, they know more about it than I, and in any event can do what they want. It just wouldn't be my choice.

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 28, 2001.

Yes, Frank, I understand. Many feel as you do, but I'm not sure that it's for a good reason. We don't have to look upon the death of the body, or final rest, if you will, with morbidity. I instinctively find the embalming process much more repellent to my sensibility than a careful and respectful exhumation. But you have to accept the reality of the process of embalming the dead.

One incident I found indefensible, a few years ago. My wife and I visited the British Museum in London; and saw the remains of a mummified prehistoric man on exhibition. It was in a large glass case, right out on the floor, with the public staring at it. I guess this was a body found in a glacier, well preserved. It's kept in a sealed, temperature controlled and antiseptic case, for viewing.

I really didn't find it grisly to look upon, or in any way ugly. I felt pity, even love, for the human being there on exhibit. He'd once lived, and his immortal soul still lives (hopefully in heaven, or at least limbo); his descendants may even live by the hundreds of thousands today! I thought the indignity of being stared at by curiosity seekers and ignorant people every day would have been a sad thing for that man, if ever he had anticipated the eventuality.

It's not so much the ''disturbing'' of the dead, you see. It's the respect afforded them that makes us humane and civilized. That respect and love is certainly afforded His Holiness John XXIII in this exhumation.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), March 29, 2001.

And that, my friend, is why I plan to be cremated. I don't like the idea of archaeologists digging my bones up and putting them on display, or leaving them in a box in a museum warehouse.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), March 29, 2001.

Jmj

"If the Vatican has some need for the body, they know more about it than I ..." [Frank Someone]

Come, come, Frank. You know the reason, though you may have forgotten it. In fact, I basically gave the reason in that quotation earlier. Let me repeat part of it: "Bodily remains are taken from a sainthood candidate's grave during the exhumation ... St. Jerome made it clear where the emphasis belonged: Relics of martyrs should not be worshiped, but they should be venerated ..."

Surely you must have heard that in a permanent altar at your parish church, there is an "altar stone" in which are encased the relics of a saint? For many centuries, such relics have been small pieces of bones, but I think that the new regulations call for a return to the practice of burying complete bones below the altar. This is not done whimsically, but as our modern imitation of what was done by the early Christian priests during the persecutions, who celebrated Mass over the bones of the martyrs in the catacombs and elsewhere.

Hannah, I'm pretty surprised at your reaction. The Church does give you freedom to do as you are planning to do (cremation), but I am quite surprised at your reason for it (to avoid being exhumed), which is one I have never heard before. I have heard of it being done only to decrease expenses for the survivors or out of concern for limited burial ground. [I have nothing at all against cremation per se.] The chances of your bones (of all the billions available) being dug up, to be handled or displayed, are almost nil -- i.e., unless you really are going to be the St. Hannah I am confident you can be! I think that I probably cannot talk you out of feeling squeamish about burial and exhumation, but I urge you to consider that such thinking is rather materialistic. I don't think that any of us should be in the least bit concerned about what happens to our poor remains after they are buried. (Remember, Hannah, that thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return.) Your soul in heaven won't know or care about whether anyone on earth is looking at what used to be the bones God lent you! You will have a perfect glorified body at the resurrection, regardless of what archaeologists may dig up after your death.

St. James, pray for us. Our Lady of Sorrows, pray for us.
God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 30, 2001.

JFG,

But do they have to be 1st class relics? I remember many years ago when a friend of mine was in the seminary he and some of his delinquent buddies (delinquent for seminarians, that is :-) ) would touch leaves to 1st class relics, thus having a goodly share of 3rd class relics for themselves.

O.K., if he *must* be buried under the altar of "St. John XXIII's" church, so be it. Otherwise, I'd still say leave dem bones in peace.

Eugene,

A dead body per se doesn't really bother me, professionally I've seen my share. On a human level though, I just see respect for the dead as part of a continuum from respect for those not yet born, to life, through death. Yes, It's only a body and without a soul so it's no different than the earth it came from. BUT, it also is a symbol of the person who WAS, and will be again at the end of time. In this capacity I think we should show our respect by leaving it in peace, although apparently many people would enjoy being able to pay their respects in person. It doesn't really bother me I guess, but it wouldn't be my preference.

Hannah,

I'm with you. With my luck I'd be hanging around on my cloud (luck indeed if I'm not roasting on a spit!) and would find some "geology 1001" class dig up my grave looking for a mineral deposit or something. I can hear it now "get this calcified junk out of the way so we can get to those neat ROCKS" Well, you can't win. Personally though, I'll probably get buried. It would make my family happier, I think. (Not to mention the outside chance of coming back as a zombie and terrorizing the neighborhood doesn't exist if you're cremated!)

Free-associating this evening,

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), March 30, 2001.

(Remember, Hannah, that thou art dust and to dust thou shalt return. YEs JOhn, I know, and so I want to return to dust asap when I die. Obviously, I will not care about my body once I'm dead. But I rather enjoy thinking of it now. Frank, I actually kind of like the idea of my body being "calcified junk." Ooh, or potting soil? Now there's a way to be useful after death. Yeah, dirt is an extremely fun substance. :) Sorry, if this creeps you all out, I'll stop. My family and I talk about this stuff all the time, but maybe it sounds weird to other people.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), March 30, 2001.

But, Hannah, I won't let Nero Wolfe plant an orchid in your urn.

Yes, Frank, they have to be first-class relics at an altar.

I feel very privileged to have a second-class relic -- a piece of white linen cloth cut from the habit of a saintly woman who was the first Mother Superior of a well-known orthodox religious congregation. She is now called "Venerable," not yet beatified since her death in the 1960s.

God bless you.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), March 30, 2001.

Hahaha! Well, my ashes would probably make too alkaline a soil, anyway. Thanks for putting up with my morbid sense of humor.

-Hannah

-- Hannah (archiegoodwin_and_nerowolfe@hotmail.com), March 31, 2001.

JFG,

Just curious, did you ever have any unusual event associated with the relic you're currently holder of?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), April 01, 2001.

I wish that I could answer, "yes," Frank, but I cannot.
However, it is a source of peace to me, as it helps me to reflect on the Servant of God's life and the great good works being done by her congregation.
John

-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), April 01, 2001.

The Pope's tomb was opened because they were moving the body to St. Peter's and they needed to id the body...this is what i read in an article. they were moving the body so that people could pray at his tomb as many do before other saints' relics.

-- Rachel (handsandfeetofChrist@yahoo.com), May 06, 2001.

Here are the facts from Zenit, a reliable news agency, as of March 27, 2001. (I have not been able to confirm a report I very recently heard that the body of Blessed John XXIII will be placed in a metal and crystal casket for public viewing in the near future.) JFG

------------------------- QUOTE --------------------------
Not only the face, but the entire body of Blessed John XXIII is incorrupt, almost 38 years after his death, a Vatican aide confirmed today.

Last weekend an internal Vatican report revealed that a canonical recognition of the Pope's remains was carried out Jan. 16, which was necessary before moving his body from the Vatican Grottoes, beneath the main floor of St. Peter's Basilica. The document said the witnesses present saw that the Pontiff's face was incorrupt. He had the same expression as he did when he died in June 1963.

At a press conference today, Cardinal Virgilio Noč, archpriest of the basilica, clarified that the whole body of the "Good Pope" was incorrupt.

The discovery does not imply a miracle. Vincenzo Pascali, professor of legal medicine at the Catholic University of Rome, explained that the process of injecting formaldehyde, to which John XXIII's body was subjected, made it possible for the tissues not to deteriorate. Pascali also noted that the body was protected by three boxes, which impeded the entry of oxygen.

Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Vatican secretary of state, said Monday that the "conservation of the face, intact and smiling, is a gift from God."

By custom, Popes are buried in three containers. John XXIII's body was in a cypress coffin, which was placed in a lead catafalque, known as "castrumdoloris," which in turn was deposited in a travertine marble sarcophagus.

The bulletin "The Basilica of St. Peter," published monthly by the Fabrica of St. Peter -- a Vatican institution responsible for the conservation of Christianity's largest church -- explained that the opening of the three containers began at 8:45 a.m. Jan. 16. After a midday pause, work continued. At 5 p.m. the cypress coffin was extracted, and at 5:30 p.m. it was pulled by hand in a cart and taken to the Altieri Deposit, which is specifically equipped for canonical recognitions.

At 6 p.m. Cardinal Noč received Cardinal Sodano, and Archbishop Leonardo Sandri, general affairs substitute of the Vatican state secretariat. Dr. Renato Buzzonetti, director of Vatican City's health services, was also present.

The body will be taken to St. Jerome's chapel in the basilica; John XXIII admired the Fathers of the Church, and this saint in particular. Cardinal Noč said the chapel will have to be modified before the body is received.

The Vatican is considering letting the faithful view John XXIII's body again, before it is reinterred.
--------------------------- UNQUOTE --------------------------


-- (jgecik@desc.dla.mil), May 06, 2001.

Hannah, Frank...

The case of Bl. Pope John XXIII is not the first one... As John mentioned, St Bernadette Soubirous since 1879, St. Catherine Labouré (about same time), the tongue of St. Anthony of Padua (a great predicator) since 13th century, St. John Vianney since 1859, St. Francis Xavier since 1552, and the list goes on... I found the following web site http://members.aol.com/ccmail/incorruptbodies.html with 4 pages.

2There are other very interesting "phenomenons" at: http://2hearts.net/apparitions.htm

As St. Bernadette said once, "my task is to give you this message, not to force you into believing it".

Jean-Yves

-- Jean-Yves (jylaut@megaweb.ca), May 09, 2001.