Is anyone else getting royally destroyed by the whole Northpoint ordeal?

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Prev | Next | Reply | Reply All | Forward | Delete | Print From: "Matt Kaatman" Save Address To: Subject: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 13:44:59 -0600 Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

Is anyone else getting royally destroyed by the whole Northpoint ordeal?

My inside contacts at Savvis are telling me that they are starting to get calls from people going down.

For some people it might not be a horrible situation if the line goes down and they can get dialup or something else running in the meantime to get internet access. But my company actually HOSTS sites and we are in big big trouble. We've got two different line orders in but it will be several weeks before anything gets installed.

We've got a lot of other plans in progress to minimize any downtime but this is really bad news. We've moved our DNS and are in progress of moving our e-mail to another location that is owned by a close friend of mine. We can probably run all of the non-ASP sites there as well as he's got linux servers, but we currently don't have a solution for temporary hosting of ASP sites. Anyone have any short term solutions?

This matter is even worse since just today we completed the purchase of RealNet Inc. So now we have to warn our brand spanking new customers that we're probably going to be going down at any moment. That's going to look great. We can't afford to lose customers. Not fun at all. How long before the ulcers go away?

So worst case scenario, we go down for a few weeks and during those weeks we're refunding hosting fees and giving away free hosting to compensate our customers and we can't bring in any new business because we have nothing to show them for design and we have nothing to host their sites on either!

Why AT&T didn't buy out the network and customers, I have no idea. Why the Northpoint creditors won't accept the $2.4million to keep the network alive for another month is beyond me as well.

If anyone knows of anything I can do to help my situation I would be most appreciative. I hope in a month or so I can look back at this crappy situation and laugh, but I'm sure not laughing now.

Sorry for ranting, this is probably offtopic for this mailing list but since there are other St. Louis web hosting providers I was curious if anyone else was in the same situation as we are and if anyone had found a quick solution for the time being.

Thanks, Matt Kaatman ThoughtProcess.net http://www.thoughtprocess.net

P.s. If this e-mail address fails because of Northpoint, try: mkaatman@mail.win.org

-- Anonymous, March 29, 2001

Answers

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- From: "Matt Kaatman" Save Address To: Cc: Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 18:01:54 -0600 Reply- To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Mike, Not sure why you're so bitter at our business plan. We are still in "startup" phase and we can't afford 10 DS3's for redundancy. We worked with the money we had to provide the best possible service we could. Our speciality was web development and we then decided we would host our customers that we designed. It worked out really nice. Northpoint was not our provider, we were using Savvis. Savvis was paying Northpoint (theoretically anyway). It was also convienient for us to get a line for all of our workstations on site. Maybe co-lo would have been a better option but co-lo was more expensive than our line and we were going for bang for the buck at the time so we could get bigger and better quicker.

I paid for a service and if the company I paid could deliver the promised/purchased product there wouldn't be any problems. We're now in the process of upgrading and will soon have some redundancy. You have to start somewhere. Matt

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001


From: Mike808 Save Address Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 08:25:54 -0600 To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Matt Kaatman wrote: > Not sure why you're so bitter at our business plan.

I said I was playing devils advocate, and painting with a broad brush. I wasn't trying to single your firm out. I apologize if you felt so.

> our provider, we were using Savvis. Savvis was paying Northpoint > (theoretically anyway).

Hmm. Maybe Northpoint wasn't getting paid by its customers might be why they tanked....

> we were going for bang for the buck at the time > so we could get bigger and better quicker.

I was just pointing out that there's more risk involved with this type of plan. Bigger better quicker is always a riskier deal because it puts more pressure on your projections being correct, whatever they are based upon - technology capabilities, cost, demand, convenience, etc. And we all know that historically, we've all been terrible at predicting the future. Like our current President (and Congress) taking a straight-line projection of last years surplus *ten years out* to justify their tax cut plan. It's ludicrous that so many smart, respected people can think that is a sound economic projection. With the current downturn, they're all scrambling to figure out why the projection didn't hold up for even *six months* ....

> I paid for a service and if the company I paid could deliver the > promised/purchased product there wouldn't be any problems.

Perhaps NorthPoint's problems were from other customers (obviously not yours) that were delivered service but didn't feel they had to pay. And NorthPoint isn't probably too good at being a bank making loans to all the freeloaders. Or they totally mispriced their service and even if everyone did pay, they still would lose money until they went under.

Or the RBOCs changed the rules by "helping" the government regulation make their business so costly only incumbent RBOCs could survive, conveniently preserving their monopolies. Events not foreseen when they started in the industry. Northpoint isn't the only DSL technology company doing badly lately. Covad, Rythm, etc. don't seem to look very healthy either. So, why is business so terrible for non-RBOCs in the DSL industry, and the RBOCs don't feel the same pressure to bail from their shareholders? Or is incumbent status a key ingredient to providing DSL services sucessfully? Did the FCC bungle the promise of competitive local services or were they "lobbied" by the RBOCs?

Mike808/

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001


From: "Leland V. Lammert" Save Address Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 16:17:59 -0600 To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- At 01:44 PM 3/29/01 -0600, you wrote: >Is anyone else getting royally destroyed by the whole Northpoint ordeal?

Sure. Last I heard there were over 5000 NP lines in St. Louis. Granted, a bunch of those folks don't care, .. but there are a lot of others hit.

ONE CORRECTION - NP is NOT at fault here - the company turning off the lines is AT&T!! NP has nothing to do with our service going dark, nor do they have anything to do with the notice (48 hours or less). AT&T is the company responsible for turning off the lines - if they were ANY sort of customer oriented company (which, sadly, they are not) they would have allowed a grace period of at least 30 days so existing customers could get out of dodge.

>My inside contacts at Savvis are telling me that they are starting to get >calls from people going down.

Here in St. Louis? Guess they're shutting down equipment at the COs??

>But my company actually HOSTS sites and we are in big big trouble. We've got >two different line orders in but it will be several weeks before anything >gets installed.

We have an ISDN line ordered as a backup, .. I'm hoping we can get a few more days service to minimize . If not, we will spend the weekend moving to a COLO facility temporarily.

>This matter is even worse since just today we completed the purchase of >RealNet Inc. >So now we have to warn our brand spanking new customers that we're probably >going to be going down at any moment. That's going to look great. We can't >afford to lose customers. >Not fun at all. How long before the ulcers go away?

Maybe we can send them to AT&T??

>So worst case scenario, we go down for a few weeks and during those weeks >we're refunding hosting fees and giving away free hosting to compensate our >customers and we can't bring in any new business because we have nothing to >show them for design and we have nothing to host their sites on either!

Yep! That's life! Send nastygrams to AT&T.

>Why AT&T didn't buy out the network and customers, I have no idea. Why the >Northpoint creditors won't accept the $2.4million to keep the network alive >for another month is beyond me as well.

Who cares why AT&T didn't purchase the customer base, .. WHY ARE THEY SHUTTING DOWN THE SYSTEM WITHOUT A DECENT PERIOD TO SWITCH SERVICE???

Lee

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001


From: "Leland V. Lammert" Save Address Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2001 19:28:00 -0600 To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- At 11:06 PM 3/29/01 +0000, you wrote:

Remember, Northpoint went down because it wasn't collecting receivables from its customers. Either it was a ponzi scheme, where only more customers could pay the bills of previous ones, or their own customers were biting the very hand that fed them by not paying up, so now they starve.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001


From: mike808@users.sourceforge.net Save Address To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Cc: mike808@users.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: Just out of curiousity? Date: Thu, 29 Mar 101 23:06:54 GMT Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > Is anyone else getting royally destroyed by the whole Northpoint ordeal?

This post is just playing devils advocate here, not trying to criticize your specific situation or company. So, don't take references to "you" or "your company" as meaning more than the general class of companies in your shoes that we're hearing all the grumbling from. What I describe below is what a lot of your fellow Northpoint partners sound like if you read between the lines of their pleas for help.

Why is it Northpoint's fault you built your business around an unstable vendor, ignored all of the warning signs, and put no effort into a contingency plan. Or if you saved your customers money by offering a cheaper service with a greater risk of loss of service if your vendor tanks, why are they [customers] asking for something they didn't pay for?

Remember, Northpoint went down because it wasn't collecting receivables from its customers. Either it was a ponzi scheme, where only more customers could pay the bills of previous ones, or their own customers were biting the very hand that fed them by not paying up, so now they starve.

> My inside contacts at Savvis are telling me that they are starting to get > calls from people going down.

That's usually what happens when you don't pay your bills or your vendor goes out of business. Are these folks people with MBAs that are truly surprised by this "news"? The handwriting was on the wall for NorthPoint for some time now if anyone looked at the stock price. Your management has been asleep at the wheel to let the risk of losing the business get this great. I just don't feel sorry for them.

Don't business schools teach the importance of maintaining a healthy supply chain for your business anymore?

> But my company actually HOSTS sites and we are in big big trouble. We've got > two different line orders in but it will be several weeks before anything > gets installed.

You should have been prepared long before now. Don't you have redundant connectivity from *more than one* vendor? You would if your business were truly that important to you. If you decided the risk was worth saving the expense, well it sounds like you just lost the bet. You made risky business decisions, and now it sucks to be you.

> We've got a lot of other plans in progress to minimize any downtime but this > is really bad news. We've moved our DNS and are in progress of moving our > e-mail to another location that is owned by a close friend of mine. We can > probably run all of the non-ASP sites there as well as he's got linux > servers, but we currently don't have a solution for temporary hosting of ASP > sites. Anyone have any short term solutions?

Maybe get out of the hosting business?

Technical note: Chili!Soft has an ASP for Linux product. https://shop.chilisoft.com/securesales/default.asp?target=CASPLNX Chili!Soft ASP for Linux is $495 per server.

I doubt that things like custom COM objects will work, as DCOM is a Microsoft-proprietary technology and only runs on MS OSes. I've never used it, so I can't vouch for it. I just know it exists.

> So now we have to warn our brand spanking new customers that we're probably > going to be going down at any moment. That's going to look great. We can't > afford to lose customers. > Not fun at all. How long before the ulcers go away?

Wow. Sounds like you were taking a gamble with using NorthPoint as your sole- supplier vendor with no backup plan. Not much you can do but pay up.

> So worst case scenario, we go down for a few weeks and during those weeks > we're refunding hosting fees and giving away free hosting to compensate our > customers and we can't bring in any new business because we have nothing to > show them for design and we have nothing to host their sites on either!

Nobody promised you that your business would survive all disasters, your fault or not, forseen or not. Maybe you should try a business with less risk next time.

> Why AT&T didn't buy out the network and customers, I have no idea. Why the > Northpoint creditors won't accept the $2.4million to keep the network alive > for another month is beyond me as well.

Because if NorthPoint files for bankruptcy, they won't see a dime. Keeping it on life-support only raises the risk of them getting to the courthouse before they cut off the services. Once a company files for bankruptcy, you can't stop "vital services" to that company, no matter how much they owe.

It's why Sprint and MCI(?) want to cut off Bridge before they tank too. And Savvis cutting them loose and filing for protection only looks better the more they go in the hole.

> If anyone knows of anything I can do to help my situation I would be most > appreciative. I hope in a month or so I can look back at this crappy > situation and laugh, but I'm sure not laughing now.

I hope you like modem banks.... :)

Is Digital Cable an option? Charter may run some sort of data center.

I don't know how fast the WorkNet(?) folks are at turning you up, but they claimed to get T1 speeds via a wireless line-of-sight system. They are perched atop the 777s building in Clayton, which geographically also has the highest elevation in the surrounding area. I don't know how fast they can turn you up. But they don't require more than sticking an antenna on your building.

Another option is the sattelite folks (DirecPC/Hughes?). It's probably still _really_ expensive, but you almost sound like money is no object at this point.

You might also try getting out while you can. Sell the company, customers and all to another hosting company that will make it. It's no crime to throw in the towel. It's just a business decision. It's hard letting go of your "baby", but sometimes, you gotta do whatcha gotta do.

Is there some reason you _need_ to be local? Have you tried the Co-Lo hotels downtown? Hosterion I think is a name I've heard. ValueNet is another (they're an ISP, but offer Co-Lo facilities). If you don't need to be local, and your customers don't either, cut a deal with Exodus, HostPro, or any of the big boys of hosting.

Mike808/



-- Anonymous, March 30, 2001



From: mike808@users.sourceforge.net Save Address To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Subject: Re: STLWEBDEV: How to avoid the next 'NorthPoint' disaster - ZDNet Discussion Zaplet Date: Wed, 4 Apr 101 22:13:49 GMT Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

> Karen Stewart has sent you an interactive ZDNet Discussion Zaplet about > the article 'How to avoid the next 'NorthPoint' disaster.' > ... go to the following address using your web browser: > http://zaplet.zaplet.com/servlet/Z?m=2_QArT-zoUKa_yMfCtAfFds2yC

Please don't. These people use cookies in their "web-friendly" version to track you and your viewing of this article, and load the page with advertising. And if you use a HTML-viewing mail client, you've already sent that URL to the remote server, identifying tracking ID and all.

Karen, please send us just the "printer-friendly" link to the web page if you think we are interested in the *content* of an article. I know I'm definately not interested in the ads you want to shovel at me (albeit you probably didn't know), and contribute my web-viewing privacy to the corporate coffers of ZDNet. I have no interest in being bagged and tagged by these folks.

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001


From: "Leland V. Lammert" Save Address Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2001 10:01:07 -0600 To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org Subject: STLWEBDEV: NP Update Reply-To: stlwebdev@stlwebdev.org

Hi folks,

For all of you out there with NP problems, I would like to pass along some recommendations:

1) We received order confirmations today to move our NP SDSL customers to Covad. If anyone has NOT been able to take advantage of this, please let me know and we can get your service switched.

2) If anyone is worried about getting caught short, we have an agreement for COLO rack space at a local ISP (mid-town) that is very competitive. We put up your server for $175/month, 50Gb, right *on* multiple T3s.

3) For other alternatives, ralize that the install time on *any* DSL service (as well as DS1) is going to be over a month due to SWBell scheduling ! You might wish to consider ordering an ISDN line for backup (though you cannot use it with any DSL service for inbound routing) - SWBell will commit to a 10 day install.

If anyone has specific questions, feel free to email me off-list.

Lee

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2001


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