Hi, I'm new to the forum, but a long time subscriber to the mag. I'm curious about how many homesteads are fully powered by solor P.V.,Also what it cost, (aprox.) to install. Do you sell any energy back to the power company? I am at 9200ft. in the Colo. rockies, My system was aprox. 8,ooo$ and it provides me with more power than I can use. I also have a back-up fuel generator,and plan on a wind generator soon.The inverter coverts to 110.So a microwave, VCR, T.V.for a couple of hours in the evening is no problem. The power Co. hasen't gotten up that far yet but a neighbor told me he makes more than he can use in the summer mostly and the power Co. has to pay him for it! It seems to me that when your looking at power bills in excess of 200$ per mo. a system like this would soon pay for itself!

-- Polly R. Bryant (Radean@webtv.net), April 02, 2001

Answers

What type of system do you have.Did you install it your self.What reason, if you have more energy then you use,do you want a wind generator.Is it for rainy days, or a well?I'd like to switch to solar.But since I've never had experience with solar electric or know anyone who has ,I just figured the cost of them and the lack of energy from the systems out there,were the reason most people don't have one?Any information on solar electric would be helpful, and appreciated. Thanks,I guess it also powers your computor.

-- Steve (a12goat@cs.com), April 02, 2001.

Polly, you imply a $8000 system will produce the amount of power you could buy for $200 per month. I doubt that very much. Also don't assume the utility company will pay you the same rate they charge. Without knowing the power production capability of your system, your figures are meaningless.

Steve, there is more sunshine in the summer than in the winter; therefore more solar power is produced in the summer during a given day. It is possible that where Polly lives there is a good wind in the winter (she does not inform us of this, so just a guess) to produce power with the wind when the solar system is not sufficient.

Alternative power systems are very viable on an individual basis. The possible reason more people do not have them is that it takes a little knowledge to construct and use.

-- Lynn Goltz (lynngoltz@aol.com), April 02, 2001.

I'm on the grid but can make my own electricity without a hitch.Most of my backups are still fossil fuel based but I have large stockpiles of fuel and spare parts.I have a number of deep cycle batteries as well as small 300 watt inverters(600w peak)these are used at point of need.TV&VCR,PC, power tools etc.For more juice I will fire up the 6500 watt generator.(Water pump,freezer,fridge,welder etc).Any "extra" electricity is used to charge the batteries.The main generator might only be run an hour a day.I made up a little battery charger from a lawn mower and a car alternator.This works to fast charge a battery.I also have used my automobile to charge the deep cycles during the course of my and my wifes normal auto travel.She drives about 80 miles a day so why not put some of that horse power to work.Large volumes of hot water can be provided by one of several military immersion heaters I own.They will bring about 30 gallons of water to a boil in 15 minutes.For smaller amounts of hot water for showers, dish washing etc. I use a 2 gallon stainless steel garden sprayer.This is fitted with a longer hose and a low flow shower nozzle with a shut off.This provides plenty of hot pressurised water for my needs.It is heated on a coleman stove,butane burner,propane stove,wood stove etc.In summer we have several of the solar showers that you see at camping stores.They work ok.The garden sprayer could be fitted into a lexan or glass box and solar heated as well.I plan on converting over to solar hot water as time and money will permit.For lighting we use alladin lamps for indoors.They also provide a fair ammount of heat.For outdoors we have a number of coleman type gasoline as well as kerosene lamps.Emergency lighting is also provided by LED semi-truck tail lights.These are red so they don't destroy my night vision and the power draw is negligable.speaking of LEDs advances have been made in producing white lights and I think I will add them to the list of back ups.You could literally leave one connected for months to a 12 volt battery.Very low power draw.Getting back to fossil fuels.Since I already have a large investment in infrastructure I plan on converting what I can to alcohol as well as swapping around for what deisels I can.I will make my own fuel (ATF can go to hell!)biodeisel needs alcohol as part of the conversion process.If any one has an ethanol based formula and process let me know.I think that about covers it. Let's discuss!

-- greg (gsmith@tricountyi.net), April 02, 2001.

You can pretty much bet that your cost to interconnect with the power company will eat any profits you would make from selling your powerback. Utils buy your power at wholesales rates and sell it back at retail.

An $8000 system means nothing from a sizing impact. In fact it sounds small for a family home. Ok, lets do some rough math. Assume the $8000 was used for the system. Lets assume self install (bad idea for most people) your going to spend $2000 for cables, connectors, batteries, mounting hardware, wires. $6000 remaining. Even if you go for a cheap inverter to run a couple of items your looking at $1000 for a good one. Yes a $39 might work, but you get what you pay for. Lets get a good one, SO $5000 remaining. So figure about 5watt for solar panels? You get 1000 watts of power out. Now thats charging power, your battery power can be more.

How much power do you need each day?

-- Gary (gws@redbird.net), April 02, 2001.

I don't yet, but am looking for all the advice I can get!! Thanks for the posts, and all the answers!

My utility company says I use over 12kW per day. That HAS to be wrong. I didn't use that much when I had all the so-called 'modern' appliances. Now I have the TV which is off most of the time, the computer and a fridge. I disconnected the clock from the stove, and we don't use all that much hot water.... Wonder where it all goes???? I used half that much when I had a washer, dryer, electric alarms, and all the other 'gadgets' of society. I am confused.

-- Sue Diederich (willow666@rocketmail.com), April 02, 2001.

Sue, A lot of energy goes to "phantom" loads. Like the TV that is off but the instant on feature takes electricity, VCR same, cordless phones, any appliance that has a timer feature, etc. To avoid this we have one circuit that we can turn off from a wall switch and we have all the possible phantom load appliances plugged into this. Or, you can just unplug them when they aren't in use.

We produce our own electricity and are totally off grid. It would have cost us about 12K to run it to the property. We have 12 75 watt solar panels, 8 L16 deep cycle batteries and a Trace inverter. We love the system and unless we tell our visitors that we are not on the grid they would not know it. But, it is expensive to install and had we been able to hook up to the power lines we probably would not have attempted it.

We also have an 8KW diesel generator for extended periods of gray days. So far this winter we have only had to run it about 6 hours.

Doug

-- Doug in KY (toadshutes@yahoo.com), April 02, 2001.

Hi, Polly- Rick and I aren't authorities on alternative power but are recommending the book "The Independent Home" by Michael Potts. It will explain in "almost English" everything you need to know. Many resources listed in the back for more help. We originally borrowed a copy from our local library. Hopefully, you can too. Rick and Ann.

-- Rick K (rick_122@hotmail.com), April 02, 2001.

We use solar for all our electricity. It would have cost me $10,000. to run a line here, so I figured I would make my own and not have to pay an electric bill, vice paying them tostring the wire, and still paying for the power. We use all florescnt light bulbs to cut down use, have all our appliances, etc on surge protectors so we can turn them off and avoid the phantom loads. My wife watches tv a lot and I use the computer a lot and we have enough power to cover our day to day activites without a problem. We have a gas generator for periods with no sun..but have gone for three days without firing it up in such conditions. I have four 75 watt panels and two 120 watt panels, and they keep us pretty well charged up. I have 16 T-105 golf cart batteries and a trace 2424 power panel. Our visitors don;t know we are solar unless we tell them. I got a fellow I met who works with ASPI and he and I set up the whole system. It was a lot of work, but I am glad we went this way. All my wires are buried, and I don't have to wrry about brownouts or blackouts as long as we pay attention to our system.

Wayne

-- Wayne in Kentucky (wallen328@aol.com), April 02, 2001.

We are 100% solar. We have 1100 watts of modules charging eight L-16 batteries. Everything is run through a Trace 5500 watt inverter. I installed the system myself, and we have about $10,000 invested.

On sunny days, the system produces about 7 kwh per day from March through October. The other four months we get about 5 kwh per day on sunny days. On cloudy days, we get essentially zero. We average using one to two kwh per day depending on whether we wash clothes, run fans, use the computer a long time, or stay up late with lots of lights on. Sorry Sue, but you can't run a regular house with all its appliances on 6 kwh per day. The power company is probably right.

After about three to four cloudy days, we have to run our backup generator. That's rare. The key to going solar is to use non- electric sources of energy for everything you can. We have a propane water heater, range, clothes dryer, and space heater. Our primary heat is with wood. The space heater is backup.

Our largest consumer of electricity is the refrigerator. We also have all the regular comforts of home, and our home looks like any other. We actively conserve electricity and watch our batteries. We keep a three week supply of clothes and wash when the batteries are full. That keeps the excess power from going to waste.

Making your own power is not for the lazy, apathetic, or indulgent. It requires discipline and conservation, but it can be done. We really don't have a power bill even though the lines run right in front of the house. The one concession we make is air conditioning. It is totally unfeasible with solar. We have few uncomfortable days here, and rarely wish for a/c.

I hope this helps someone make up their mind. You can do solar, but don't expect it to be easy. You will have large up front costs, and you will have to constantly conserve.

-- Jim (catchthesun@yahoo.com), April 03, 2001.

I have a question. I live in california and am concerned about the heat in summer.You said you cant run ac on solar but what about fans [ ceiling,ect]? also has any one heard of either a atic or whole house fan that can run off solar?

-- kathy h (ckhart55@earthlink.net), April 08, 2001.

I live on a sailboat in Florida so that automatically lets me out of the heat and large spaces, but I can have my TV, computer, lights (12v florescent and halogen), radio, stereo etc. with just a single solar panel. It's old and I don't remember what it is rated at but it still shows a 5 amp charge rate. At the moment I am rebuilding the boat and have moved the batteries and panel into my temporary living quarters. I have to conserve power since I do a little more than normal computer work but it works fine and have no plans to upgrade anything. for long sunless periods I have a lawn mower engine with an automotive alternator belted to it but seldom use it. I have lived on a boat most of my life so conservation is a regular part of my life but it doesn't take long to where it becomes second nature.

-- Robert Bodell (webmaster@marine.mail22.com), June 01, 2001.

I have used portable generators quite a bit for work on sites where there is no mains. I would always advise generator users to have some non-reactive load across the generator (like an ordinary light bulb) to absorb surges. BE VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT USING VARIABLE SPEED CONTROLLED MACHINES (like power drills, or variable suction vacuum cleaners), as when the thyristors "chop" you can get the electrical equivalent of water hammer in a pipe. This can happen with mains power too, but the chief problems are surges caused by power outages and returns. Most of my treasured electricals are fitted with surge arresters in the mains plugs. These must help as my Sony TV bought in 1987 has never needed any repairs!

When my best generator was destroyed by a "friend" I bought an inverter instead. (SkyTronics Taiwan). This works very well indeed when run from my car battery. Rated at 1000 watts I have used it with a 1050 watt circular saw, 800 watt electropneumatic power drill, and a 700 watt grinderette. The only item to give trouble was a "site transformer" (in rainy Britain 240 volt tools are illegal on building sites, you have to use a 55-0-55 system) The transformers very low primary resistance fooled the inverter into thinking it had a short across its terminals and it would not start up.

The cure was to fit an NTC thermistor obtained from Farnell Electronics. I might as well mention that this inverter when driving low energy (fluorescent) light bulbs will run for several hours before the car engine has to be started, it is much nicer than a bellowing portable generator.

-- David Benyon (david.benyon@lineone.net), September 28, 2001.

I'm on a committee investigating alternative energy, energy deregulation effects, and the formation of consumer owned utilities.

What I'm learning about PV is that it will become cost effective to do an interface system, where you sell excess power to the utiliuty company, when the cost of the utility company's power goes up high enough. One number that's being kicked around is 25 cents per kilowatt hour. There are rebates in Calif and Florida which pay about half your costs for this type of system, though, which makes the break even point around 12-13 cents per kwh.

Bulk purchasing is another area we're investigating. A good example of a successful bulk purchase is Sacramento (Calif) Municipal Utility District (SMUD). They were able to bring the total price of an interface system down to about $5 per watt. This is a VERY good price, and makes it actually possible to make a profit on selling your excess power back to the power company.

For lots of good information about all kinds of alternative power, I highly recommend Home Power Magazine. You can download the entire issue free on the net, or better, pay them the money and subscribe.

One interesting section in the Mag is called "Guerilla Power", which deals with how many folks have gotten fed up with all the permits, and restrictive rules put in place by private power companies (in an apparent attempt to make it nearly impossible to even install an interface system, much less make money at it).

This section of the Mag gives (anonymous) examples of folks who have taken it upon themselves to connect to the grid WITHOUT permission. According to the research I have done, it appears to be quite feasible to do this, with a high degree of safety and reliability, with over the counter type of equipment.

JOJ

-- jumpoff joe (jumpoff@ecoweb.net), September 28, 2001.

hi, I MAKE MY OWN ELECTRICITY BY USING AN OLD BYCICLE AND WHEN THE POWER RUNS OUT I JUST GO OUT SIDE AND WIND IT UP BECAUSE IT IS CONECTED TO THE ELECTRICITY BOARD IN MY HOUSE.

-- nikki richter (killercondom_13@yahoo.com.au), November 10, 2001.