SOY

-- Lars (larsguy@yahoo.com), April 03, 2001

Answers

What about soylent green?

Premerin-YES! Hot flashes and night sweats-NO!

-- Cherri (jessam5@home.com), April 03, 2001.

Lars:

If you read enough literature, everything, both good and bad, is claimed for soya. My guess is it is none of the above. Some people don't do well with a little in their diet. Others live on it. Actually, most people who eat processed food eat a lot of it; whether they want to or not.

For me food is about taste and enjoyment. For others it is just fuel for the burner. I like tofu and use a lot of it. I don't like the pseudo meats. I find them awful. Give me a good steak, or some nice wild fish [wild means not farm raised; I think that the mercury brings out the taste, *<)))].

It is a matter of philosophy and preference.

Best Wishes,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 03, 2001.

Lars, good topic but not soon to be settled any time soon.

Z, you said :

If you read enough literature, everything, both good and bad, is claimed for soya.

Hee hee ...... care to comment?

Soy May Help Protect Brain from Alzheimer's http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/ US/reuters20010403_3208.html LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Eating more soy could help stave off the irreversible brain disorder Alzheimer's disease, which afflicts more than half of Americans over the age of 85, researchers said on Tuesday. Soy, rich in phytoestrogen compounds and already said to reduce risk for heart disease and osteoporosis, may help protect against the onset of Alzheimer's disease, especially in post-menopausal women, according to a study presented at a meeting of the American Chemical Society in San Diego. A three-year animal study found that plant-based estrogens found in soy, called phytoestrogens or isoflavones, appear to reduce the number of protein changes in the brain that are associated with Alzheimer's disease. "There is some evidence that women who don't take estrogen replacement therapy are at greater risk for Alzheimer's so we wanted to compare the benefits of soy with common estrogen therapy," Helen Kim, a professor at the University of Alabama at Birmingham, and lead researcher for the study, said in a telephone interview. Alzheimer's, characterized by a build-up of plaque and tangles inside the nerve cells in the brain, affects about 4 million people in the United States. By the middle of this century, as many as 14 million Baby Boomers could have Alzheimer's, according to the Alzheimer's Association. The study was done with aged female monkeys that had their ovaries removed, considered to be animal models for human menopause, Kim said. During the three-year study, funded by the National Institutes of Health, 45 monkeys were fed one of three diets -- soy with isoflavones, soy without isoflavones and soy without isoflavones and Premarin, a common estrogen therapy made by American Home Products Corp. . Fifteen monkeys were in each diet group. The scientists then examined the brain tissue of monkeys in each group for some of the protein changes that are markers of Alzheimer's. Kim said her team found fewer Alzheimer's-linked protein changes in the brains of monkeys that received soy with isoflavones, compared with both other groups. Improper function of certain proteins in the brains of people with Alzheimer's can cause the skeletal structure of nerve cells to collapse. Kim said the same lack of change was not evident, at least to the same extent, in the brains of the animals that were given Premarin. Kim suspects that isoflavones and real estrogens, such as those in Premarin, may both be beneficial for the brain but work through different mechanisms. "We now need to follow up with more animals to look at how the protein changes affect brain function," the researcher said. Women, who undergo a rapid estrogen loss after menopause and historically live longer than men, are most at risk for Alzheimer's, but men also succumb to the disease. Men can also benefit from eating more soy, Kim said. "Estrogen is viewed as a female hormone, but it really isn't. Without estrogen male mice don't develop normally as far as sexual behavior and aggression," the researcher said. She warned that people should consume their soy in food, rather than supplements, where the risk of toxicity is uncertain. "Make chili with textured soy or a smoothie with soy milk. You can even make a really good cheesecake with soy. The thing is that it can easily be incorporated into good, familiar foods," Kim said. * * *

T ofu Linked to Dementia, study says http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ 1999/Nov/20/localnews3.html Hawaii researchers, led by Dr. Lon White, a scientist with the Pacific Health Research Institute at Kuakini Medical Center, are waiting for word on publication of their research in a scientific journal, offering further validation of their findings. White’s work has been viewed as some of the most important in the country, because it’s based on a detailed, long-term database — that of the 3,734 Japanese-American men in the Honolulu Heart Program study and the immense interest in finding causes for Alzheimer’s. The first word of White’s findings came during a recent Washington, D.C., conference sponsored by the nation’s soy industry at which White had been invited to speak. White has been working on the tofu connection for several years as part of the Honolulu-Asia Aging Study and the Honolulu Heart Program, with financing by the National Institute on Aging. His work, comparing cognitive tests on the subjects with their dietary histories, has shown that more than two servings a week of tofu during the years of middle-age (from 45 on) may affect cognitive function in older age. Although Hawaii researchers don’t really know what part of the tofu may be affecting cognitive function, they think the plant estrogens it contains somehow block the brain’s ability to use natural estrogens produced by the bodies of both men and women. Estrogen is necessary for healthy brain function. “We don’t know exactly. But there are different biochemical pathways in the brain, and (it) could possibly interfere with natural human estrogen binding in the brain,” said Dr. Helen Petrovich, a co-investigator in the study. “It’s possible it could be slowing down the production of our estrogen, or blocking it. Certain chemicals can block that.” White’s work has sweeping implications for women who turn to plant estrogens as hormone replacement therapy after menopause, and for those hoping high levels of plant estrogens can improve their cognitive functioning. “So many people have been touting tofu and its plant estrogen content as possibly helpful with regard to maintaining cognition into old age,” Blanchette said. “It’s an example of how research is very important. Intuitively, you might think something is helpful, and then it turns out not to be.” But she said the public should view this the same way they should view the latest research on beta-carotene. “Just because excess amounts of beta-carotene are bad for you I don’t think I would tell people to stop eating carrots,” Blanchette said. “Moderate amounts are good for you.” Same with tofu, she said. “Everything in moderation because there are such good things that tofu does for you,” she said. The journals Nature and Science have turned down White’s findings for publication — mostly because the study is not of wide appeal to their readers, said fellow researcher Petrovich. But it’s now being considered for publication by The Journal of the American Nutrition Society. Petrovich said the peer review process for journal publication “ensures that what you’re going to be writing about is as true as science can make it.” White’s data goes back to 1965 when the Honolulu Heart Program study began with 8,006 returning AJA veterans. The data collected over the years — and continuing to be collected today — is unusually detailed, and should produce more and more answers about causes of Alzheimer’s. “What we have here in Honolulu is a gold mine,” White told the Advertiser more than a year ago, as he pushed forward on his research, hoping for definitive results. “It’s one of the few large studies where people are moving into the age where they’re getting dementia, and lots of background information was recorded.” In comparing the dietary habits of 3,734 Japanese-American men whose tofu consumption ranged from zero to many servings a week, White found that those who ate the most scored lower than those who ate little on a standard cognitive function test for determining dementia. “When you look at tofu consumption, there’s a relationship between the amount you eat and the cognitive functioning in old age,” Petrovich said. In addition, autopsies on the brains of 300 who have died weighed less than those who consumed fewer than two servings of tofu a week. In developing the research White factored out all other dietary items that could effect cognitive changes. “He put into the model everything he could think of that could be another cause,” Petrovich said. “Green tea, black tea, rice, miso, meat, fish, milk, coffee.” He also tried to compare data with Hawaii’s sister study in Japan, but there wasn’t the wide spectrum of tofu consumption available in Hawaii, Petrovich said. “Our study is one of the few that could show this kind of effect because most societies either eat a lot of tofu or none at all.” None of the other items showed any consistency in effect on cognitive function, she said. Only tofu. * * *

Good thing you are not one to percolate ulcer juice over this stuff. :-)

Oh Cherri, "TRUST US, WE'RE EXPERTS " ...!!

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 04, 2001.

Arrgh.. trying to juxtapose the articles like that.... somehow I left out the first 3 paragraphs from the "Dementia" article, which you'll see if you go there.

Oh well... !

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 04, 2001.

Good Lord, Lars - You Lead Demon, you-

I thought that extreme menopausal symptoms in femmes were oftentimes due to an overload of estrogen {or an underload of progesterone}.

What hath you #@$&%* this time?!

{If your homeowners association only KNEW they had more than mailboxes to worry about with YOU}

-- flora (**@__._), April 04, 2001.

Debbie:

Yeah, I have read both press releases before and am familiar with the original scientific studies. This is just the tip of the iceberg. While I might start by saying that these are uncontrolled [really uncontrollable] studies, at least, one of the many is correct. We just need to figure out which ones are correct. If all are correct, it makes no difference what you eat. In this case, it means if you eat soya or not you will end up stupid when you get old. I am finding that to be true. I was a lot smarter at 16.

So little time and so much to worry about. *<))) I have given up and eat what tastes good.

Best Wishes,,,,

Z

-- Z1X4Y7 (Z1X4Y7@aol.com), April 04, 2001.

Hello Z -

it means if you eat soya or not you will end up stupid when you get old. I am finding that to be true. I was a lot smarter at 16.

But you are wiser no? Well, I've found there's an advantage to sinking to your lowest point in your 20s - because after that, it's all uphill. I may have had more brain power at 16 or 25, but the cleverest I could be with it in those days was figuring out a ton of different ways to destroy myself. ;-) So maybe I do have less raw brain power now, it just feels like I have much more. . It is a while before I call myself "old" however.

* * * *

It's unusual with soy that both the alternative and mainstream communities have embraced its "benefits."

You said these controversies over soy are "just the tip of the iceberg" - are you perhaps referring to current heavily-funded USDA and industry funded soy research, most of which is highly slanted toward selling the benefits of soy? Soy Online Service, uncovering the truth about Soy

(Not to mention that soy is the most genetically engineered crop out there.)?

I have been aware of certain conflicting claims about soy for some time. However I am not rabidly anti-soy, just cautious because of that. I didn't quite follow your take on the studies, except that you feel it is up in the air on how to interpret them, with one being more likely to be correct than the others. (?) (It makes sense to me that where food is concerned, studies are hard to do and harder to interpret.)

Sigh. I wish I had the time and resources to evaluate this better. But I can understand the sentiment "so little time and so much to worry about."

I need new b.s. filters for science and medicine. But it might be argued that I wouldn't have the background to know how to use them.[grin]

I am just expressing a frustration. In an age when humanity has more resources than ever to study and prevent ill health, the growth of DISinformation seems to grow apace with greater access to information. (I should be surprised?) A consequence of this is not just that consumers are confused, but in the actual practice of medicine there is an ever increasing lag between knowledge and practice. You are in the biosciences where you see rapid advances of knowledge, where scientifc discovery is unfettered. But medical practice is so restricted by medical licensing institutions and the "standard of care" and has become so dysfunctional and even dismissive of patient welfare, that horror stories are common place. I am confident that good IS coming from consumer access to medical alternatives but it may be hard to see that as it is all in flux now. Well, enough ranting for now....

* * *

I can take or leave soy and wouldn't miss never eating it again. Except for miso (yum!) which is more of a condiment, than a main dish. I did not really mean to call into question what YOU (or I) eat. That is a hard-won personal decision, which each of us comes to by many considerations.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 06, 2001.

Debbie, I really wish you'd post more often, even if this meant taking regular periods of unpaid leave from work or drastically cutting your hours. The wealth of satisfaction derived from increased presence here would more than make up for the decreased ability to feed and clothe yourself. Trust me. ;)

I too love miso, though I only use it in soup. I'm sure there's a ton of recipes on the net, but would you write about ways you use it?

Thanks.

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 06, 2001.

Rich,

Thank you for your kind words. But I really must work more, not less. LOL

Posting more? Well if I should have any more of these anomalous attacks of lucidity, perhaps this can be arranged. Otherwise no guarantees....

Miso! I use it in some soups, it replaces the salt. Spread it on Ezekiel bread. If a recipe asks for something yucky like "add a package of Lipton Onion Soup" I'll use miso instead.

Then miso soup iso soup itself which you can do a lot of different ways. I like to add ginger, leeks, and mung bean sprouts and other ways I can't think of right now.. How do you make it?Rich,

Thank you for your kind words. But I really must work more, not less. LOL

Posting more? Well if I should have any more of these anomalous attacks of lucidity, perhaps this can be arranged. Otherwise no guarantees....

Miso! I use it in some soups, it replaces the salt. Spread it on Ezekiel bread. If a recipe asks for something yucky like "add a package of Lipton Onion Soup" I'll use miso instead.

Then miso soup soup itself which you can do a lot of different ways. I like to add ginger, leeks, and mung bean sprouts and other ways I can't think of right now.. How do you make it?

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 07, 2001.

Argh. A garbled message. Must be overdoing that tofu.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 07, 2001.

Debbie, as I'm sure you're aware there's many types of miso, some stronger in flavor than others based upon aging and the grain or grass.

I usually buy brown rice miso, which has a pretty strong flavor. I like to make a simple soup in cold weather. A macrobiotic friend introduced me to it many years ago (a Michio Kushi devotee) . As macrobiotics preaches simplicity in food prep, few spices and use of seasonal veggies, my habit is to keep the soup simple. BTW, I don't follow a macrobiotic diet. I love spicy foods. Hot, hotter, hottest!

I saute a little onion & carrot until soft while bringing water or chicken stock to a boil. If I have any veggie scraps such as celery trimmings I add them to the stock, removing them after 20 minutes. Add the sauteed veggies to the stock and gently boil for 10 minutes. I usually add brown rice as well - which I always have on hand as it is a staple of my dogs' diets. Turn off the heat. Ladle a little broth into a separate container, mix in a tablespoon or more of miso. Then add that back into the soup. Mix well and serve.

There's something invigorating about miso soup. If I weren't moving again soon I'd go buy a container right now!

What kind(s) of miso do you use?

-- Rich (howe9@shentel.net), April 08, 2001.

Rich,

I'm most familiar with chick pea, soy, or barley miso. The soup is very invigorating I'll agree. For some reason if I have it more than 2 days in a row though, I lose my appetite for it for a while; it has a strong "effect."

I've got this container of dark, dark Hatcho miso that I've been meaning to do something with - very intense in flavor.

Another thing I like to add is seaweeds - wakame in particular. And I think you traditionally use a little oil but I sometimes like to use ghee or butter.

I don't follow macrobiotics either, where some of my favorite foods are poisons - tomatoes, meat, hot food (ditto!). I like a lot of their cooking ideas though.

-- Debbie (dbspence@usa.net), April 10, 2001.